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Group Ride Etiquette/Ride Leader Rant...or am I just a spazz?
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Hey all--

Wanted to throw this out there to those of you that regularly do group rides or have had lots of experience in the past with them.

Last night I went on one of the evening group rides for intermediate/slower paced riders (the Local World Championship "race" is Wed nights) with our local road bike club. This ride is billed as good ride to get in some miles. No racing. No drop (but not exactly slow).

I have been riding with this club all winter although this was my first ride with this ride leader. Generally what has happened on other rides with the club, no matter how fast, is that we slow/stop at a couple of spots to make sure any stragglers get back on with the group. Or the ride leader slows and picks up stragglers and bridges them up to the group.

Last night the group starts out and immediately splits because some of the group miss a traffic light heading out of town. Ride leader has no clue. Stragglers get back on on their own. No sweat, they are some of the club's stronger riders. We get out of town and onto some rural roads. Traffic is light, the group is paying attention and warning accordingly when cars are coming up on us.

First problem is is the ride leader is the only one sitting at the front. The pace is yo-yoing and instead of hitting the brakes/accelerating I and a couple of the other guys fall in to a second paceline next to the original. I try to start some friendly chat with said ride leader, and his response it to yell "single file, get back in the line." I'm thinking "whatever, dude, relax."

Eventually I get in on the back of the line and notice that we have a couple of folks struggling and are off the back. We are only about 1/3 into the ride so I did not want them to have to do a lot of riding on their own. I slow down and try and pull them back to the group. One of them jumps past after I slow down to them and bridges onto the group.

Meanwhile the group is plowing ahead. Ride leader oblivious that two of us are getting further and further off the back. No problem. I figured we would catch them all at the turnaround/re-group spot.

We set a good pace getting to the spot. I notice a couple in the group already heading back. The person I was pulling turns around early and gets on with one of the folks already on their way back.

Wow...maybe we were further off the back that I thought. No problem. I figure I'll check in with the leader and then head back.

I get to the check-in spot and there is NO ONE there. Damn. I guess I am riding back in by myself. I turn around and head back. Using my frustration to fuel my effort to catch the folks that turned around ahead of me. I felt responsibility (as a member of the club and it was their first time out with the club) to make sure they made it back safe and also frustrated that I would be riding back alone after working to try and keep the group somewhat together (no matter how futile). I did catch them before the end of the ride.

My question(s)...after the long winded wind up...is/are this, is it the responsibility of the ride leader to make sure the group sticks together somewhat or at least keep track of the weaker riders? Or is it ok to just leave folks hanging, they should know their abilities and not get in over their head. The only thing the "ride leader" seemed to want to do was to be the only one at the front of the pack.

What gives? Please wise ones of slowtwitcha, please impart on me the knowledge of group ride etiquette and ride leadership. Or tell me if I am off base and this is standard group ride protocol.





Embrace the suck--Anon.

Eagles Race Team--Napa CA
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Re: Group Ride Etiquette/Ride Leader Rant...or am I just a spazz? [OnThaCouch] [ In reply to ]
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ugh. i hate group rides.

--
mcoker
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Re: Group Ride Etiquette/Ride Leader Rant...or am I just a spazz? [OnThaCouch] [ In reply to ]
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Was there any advertisement or pre-ride announcement regarding regrouping, pace, and sweep?

I've been on rides where I've been handed a route map, and told "see you later"; it's pretty clear that we were on our own, but these were usually not introductory rides or irdes where newcomers were common.

I've also been on others where it was announced at the start that there would be regrouping and that a 2nd ride leader would ride sweep.

If there is a stated policy, then I'd say the leader has an obligation to follow it (even if others do not), otherwise why be ride leader? If there was no explicitly stated policy (maybe because "everybody knows" what it is) then you get situations like this where it appears to be at the whim of the leader.
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Re: Group Ride Etiquette/Ride Leader Rant...or am I just a spazz? [OnThaCouch] [ In reply to ]
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Welcome to the dynamics of nearly every group ride I've ever been on--countless cities/levels of riders/team only, etc. Once the group is more than about 8-10 people, this is how it goes.

The only group ride I'll do now is one with a number pinned on my back.......
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Re: Group Ride Etiquette/Ride Leader Rant...or am I just a spazz? [OnThaCouch] [ In reply to ]
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The No-drop, no racing policy of most group rides is only there to attract new, weaker riders.

Most of those policies are actually advocated by the "mediocre" riders who would otherwise end up off the back themselves....

A real no-drop, no racing group ride normally has an experienced ride leader (with social skills) and at least one rider that is committed to "sweeping" the course.

Lots of bad ride leaders (and rides) out there. No questions about that.

However a lot of groups/rides have grown very rapidly (LA effect), and a lot of strong riders don't have any "education" how to ride safely and responsible in a pack.

It is also up to you to educate them. Maybe you should volunteer to lead this ride?

___________________________________________
Ego numquam pronuncio mendacium,
sed sum homo salvaticus
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Re: Group Ride Etiquette/Ride Leader Rant...or am I just a spazz? [OnThaCouch] [ In reply to ]
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You said spazz. I believe that word is no longer on the books since Tiger Wood got in trouble for it. Just want to help you out.

On Topic: In the group rides (for new cyclist) that I used to do if it was a no drop ride we had a leader and a guy riding sweep.

Of course we had our "Wed Night Worlds" as well.
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Re: Group Ride Etiquette/Ride Leader Rant...or am I just a spazz? [OnThaCouch] [ In reply to ]
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That sounds EXACTLY like the "no drop" Thursday rides in my local bike club. They also can't figure out why they have a difficult time attracting new members....

Where are you riding?
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Re: Group Ride Etiquette/Ride Leader Rant...or am I just a spazz? [OnThaCouch] [ In reply to ]
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sounds like the ride leader was taking the word "leader" to mean lead the pace line not lead the ride. If they say it's a no-drop ride then leader or someone should help out the slow pokes AND call up front to ease up on the pace. Did you ask the leader to ease up on the pace so people didn't get dropped?
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Re: Group Ride Etiquette/Ride Leader Rant...or am I just a spazz? [ethics] [ In reply to ]
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>> The No-drop, no racing policy of most group rides is only there to attract new, weaker riders.

A no-drop ride that drops people isn't a no-drop ride, no matter what a club may want to call it. Also, I don't think these rules are just the creation of weaker riders.

For instance, my chicago based club has a no-drop rule...and we MEAN no drop. Some one flat? We all stop. Some on drops off the back? It is the responsibility of ALL (dropped party included) to call "gap" and to bring the group back into form.

Even our strongest Cat 1-2-3 riders fight hard to keep the no drop rule...why? Because we all started there at some point and we know that the only way new and existing members will develop and bond is to keep our once-a-week team rides no drop over a significant portion of the ride.


>>It is also up to you to educate them. Maybe you should volunteer to lead this ride?

Excellent point...
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Re: Group Ride Etiquette/Ride Leader Rant...or am I just a spazz? [OnThaCouch] [ In reply to ]
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What the heck is a ride leader? I've done a lot of group riding and I've never heard that before. Is it stated that he is such at the beginning of the ride? I guess mayber all the group riding I have done was with liscensed racers and it was every man for himself when things went crazy.

Chad
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Re: Group Ride Etiquette/Ride Leader Rant...or am I just a spazz? [OnThaCouch] [ In reply to ]
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I think you're being too sensitive. It is very very rare to find a ride where the group rides as slow as the slowest rider, which is essentially what a so called "no-drop" ride is. People get dropped on group rides. It's the nature of the beast. It's better to be prepared for it than to assume that the group will accomodate every problem (pace, flats, dropped bottle, phone calls...) of every individual on the ride.
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Re: Group Ride Etiquette/Ride Leader Rant...or am I just a spazz? [OnThaCouch] [ In reply to ]
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Who sponsors the ride? Is it out of a bike shop? Is it for a club? That may be who you need top approach. If they want to build a good no-drop ride, they may talk with the "leader."

I used to be the unofficial ride leader of a "We will try our best to drop you" group ride. When I saw people at the start who were obviously not going to hang, I used to inform them of this. I made sure they got a map and let them know that if they flatted they were on their own.

Yeah, the ride was cutthroat, but it sure made you strong if you kept trying your hardest to hang week in and week out.

---------------

"Remember: a bicycle is an elegant and efficient tool designed for seeking out and defeating people who aren't as good as you."

--BikeSnobNYC
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Re: Group Ride Etiquette/Ride Leader Rant...or am I just a spazz? [OnThaCouch] [ In reply to ]
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Maybe give them the suggestion to have several group leaders -- this seems to work well for us. We have a lead, a middle and a sweep.

Also on No Drop rides we leave a "corner person" at turns -- this assures that people do not miss a turn.

If the group get too fractured -- that is when the "middle lead" will start a second group - the group breaks into two groups -- this happens about 50% of the time.

Sweep is Sweep -- they are the last person. We are lucky in that there is a couple who are almost always sweep - so we have two sweeps - so if there is a mechanical or someone bonks bad - one will stay with that rider and the other will become the sweep i.e. the sweep never gets that far behind.
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Re: Group Ride Etiquette/Ride Leader Rant...or am I just a spazz? [Pooks] [ In reply to ]
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Disagree with you Dave. If it's promoted as no drop, then that's what it should be. Yeah, someone who has only ridden 10 miles as their farthest ride and the no drop ride is 50, shouldn't be coming on the ride, but no drop should mean no drop. Though I do agree that (1) this dude needs to understand the concept of ride leader and (2) having a designated sweep or two is a good idea.

clm

clm
Nashville, TN
https://twitter.com/ironclm | http://ironclm.typepad.com
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Re: Group Ride Etiquette/Ride Leader Rant...or am I just a spazz? [OnThaCouch] [ In reply to ]
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My $.02 is that unless otherwise specified, the group *leader* isn't responsible for the riders in the group. He/she isn't providing a babysitting service, but rather some general coordination of ride start time/course/pace et cetera. Seems many triathletes show up to roadies' group rides and expect someone to hold their hand.
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Re: Group Ride Etiquette/Ride Leader Rant...or am I just a spazz? [Pooks] [ In reply to ]
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Hello All--

Thanks for all the great feedback. Just a tad bit more background. The ride leader is the person from the club designated to provide the route (no route sheets) and keep track of the group.

I belong to another group that does the "here is your route sheet and sign in/out sheet" method. I have no problem doing an entire ride on my own in this format.

I was hammered by our club racers last week on this very same ride (Wed night Worlds was rained out). Said ride leader was absent. Another stepped up and did a bit of coaching/guiding as we all rode. Was a blast while I could hold on and a great learning experience. A few of us limped home together while the racers took off. Good times.

If the ride were every person for themselves I would be ok with this too. Where I have a problem is that this particular individual started these rides to provide a format to attract more riders to our club (in NorCal between Sac and SF). He is the one that is adamant about no racing, no drop. He makes an announcement ahead of time and everything. Since we have been having more new/different riders some of us more regular riders are not always familiar with everyone's riding ability or comfort level with being dropping for the majority of the ride. We do not have a designated sweep person though. I may just volunteer to lead or sweep for this ride. Great idea.

I guess my problem is not so much with the format of the ride but that the ride leader is presenting it one way to potential riders and leads it entirely another. Let's pick a format and stick with it and let folks know up front what the expectations should be. I will talk to him about it. I figure if he is going to do it in a manner where he is oblivious to the members of the group he might as well go ride by himself.

Thanks and keep the comments/feedback coming.

Tom





Embrace the suck--Anon.

Eagles Race Team--Napa CA
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Re: Group Ride Etiquette/Ride Leader Rant...or am I just a spazz? [OnThaCouch] [ In reply to ]
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Valid beef.

There are good ride leaders, and then there are other ride leaders.

When a ride is designated "no drop" or a group ride is specified as a group ride then I think it should remain as such. Usually that requires a breifing on the part of the ride leader at the beginning of the ride and also having the ride leader check in at the back pretty frequently to keep thing together. Better yet, have two ride leaders- a point man and a tailgunner. Put the strongest guy at the back so he can keep people in contact who drift off and then go to the front of the ride easily to slow it down if it starts to come apart.

It is demoralizing for new riders when they show up to a ride sold to them as "no drop" and then a bunch of guys shell them. Not nice.

Tom Demerly
The Tri Shop.com
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Re: Group Ride Etiquette/Ride Leader Rant...or am I just a spazz? [Pooks] [ In reply to ]
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<< It is very very rare to find a ride where the group rides as slow as the slowest rider, which is essentially what a so called "no-drop" ride is.

not true, a "no drop" ride does not mean that everyone has to ride the speed of the slowest rider. You have been on the Wednesday ride that Pete Pensyres leads. That is a "no drop" ride. Even though every week it is a minimum of 70 miles and 10,000 ft of climbing, it is a "no drop" ride. We may hammer all of the climbs, but at the top we wait for everyone to catch up. Most of the time Pete rides back down to the last person and rides back up again with them. If someone gets a flat, everyone stops. This is by no means an easy ride, but it is a "no drop" ride.

Mike Plumb, TriPower MultiSports
Professional Running, Cycling and Multisport Coaching, F.I.S.T. Certified
http://www.tripower.org
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Re: Group Ride Etiquette/Ride Leader Rant...or am I just a spazz? [cdw] [ In reply to ]
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<< What the heck is a ride leader?

the one that sets the date, time and place of the ride. he/she is the one that says time to go, no more waiting. THe other Wednesday ride here, the ride leader is Steve Hegg. It is Steve that says when it is time to start and when the ride used to go inland, Steve would, or he would send someone up the road to hold cars at a blind left hand turn that we had to make. It was still an "every man for himself" ride after some point, luckily when it came to that, Steve was usually still at the front.

Mike Plumb, TriPower MultiSports
Professional Running, Cycling and Multisport Coaching, F.I.S.T. Certified
http://www.tripower.org
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Re: Group Ride Etiquette/Ride Leader Rant...or am I just a spazz? [Mike Plumb] [ In reply to ]
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I guess I need to move to Pendleton so I can go on rides with former Olympic medalists. I'm feeling pretty lonely up here in the desert.
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Re: Group Ride Etiquette/Ride Leader Rant...or am I just a spazz? [cdw] [ In reply to ]
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Chad, you coming down for Devil Dog? I'm starting to think I may do it again this year.

Mike Plumb, TriPower MultiSports
Professional Running, Cycling and Multisport Coaching, F.I.S.T. Certified
http://www.tripower.org
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Re: Group Ride Etiquette/Ride Leader Rant...or am I just a spazz? [Mike Plumb] [ In reply to ]
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I'm coming unless the President screws up my schedule. I'm beginning to think it is a conspiracy to keep me from racing this year. Three races I did last year are all on the same weekend this year. Now the President is coming the 23rd and I have no idea if I am going to be on a tight leash Saturday. I'm actually doing a little speedwork in anticipation of Duathlon nationals and I had a very good workout this week. Unless Norman comes I ought to be vying for the lead.

Chad

P.S. How did Arizona go? I saw your swim result and came back a few times, but then had other things to do. You were the only person I knew racing.
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Re: Group Ride Etiquette/Ride Leader Rant...or am I just a spazz? [cdw] [ In reply to ]
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Arizona was tough, was still fighting the flu but did it anyways. half the bike and the run were a struggle, but the good part was my knee never bothered me the whole day.

Mike Plumb, TriPower MultiSports
Professional Running, Cycling and Multisport Coaching, F.I.S.T. Certified
http://www.tripower.org
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Re: Group Ride Etiquette/Ride Leader Rant...or am I just a spazz? [Pooks] [ In reply to ]
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"I think you're being too sensitive. It is very very rare to find a ride where the group rides as slow as the slowest rider, which is essentially what a so called "no-drop" ride is. People get dropped on group rides. It's the nature of the beast. "

I agree with this. I think the problem is, nobody should advertise a "no drop" ride unless it's a ride for new riders only, led by a seasoned rider who's just there to help people make their first excursions out on the road. Otherwise, people show up who've blown a quarter inch of dust off their bikes and put air in the tires for the first time in 8 months ... and they expect daily riders to wait around for them?

Not everyone is into cycling for the same reasons. Some want a social event. Some couldn't care less about that. I got so fed up with slower riders telling me I don't ride right that I stopped doing most of the club rides in my area. I simply don't have time to waste 3 hours doing a freaking 30 mile ride.

Our local club was destroyed by a president who insisted on filling the ride calendar with "class 1 ... no drop" rides. There was nothing for anyone else. He was convinced this would bring new people into the club. And it brought a handful in. It drove faster and more seasoned riders out in droves and ultimately, the club died.

It's just like church. Church is supposed to be for believers and a place where they get steeped in the word and become sanctified (more Christ-like). But all of our pastors have turned every service into an evangelical event aimed at converting the unbelieving. That wasn't the original design. There needs to be an evangelical component that goes out and has tent meetings and converts people. Then we need to have church ... where the believers go to learn and grow. That's how clubs should think about their group ride programs, too.

Anyway, I don't think anyone should tell anyone else how to ride unless they're endangering others or unless the rider is clearly desiring instruction for improvement.

I ride with a group I really get along with now. The leader advertises every ride as a no-drop ride. They're no-drop alright ... as long as you can hang at 24 mph.

Bob C.
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Re: Group Ride Etiquette/Ride Leader Rant...or am I just a spazz? [OnThaCouch] [ In reply to ]
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Group Ride Etiquette

Isn't that an oxymoron?


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Re: Group Ride Etiquette/Ride Leader Rant...or am I just a spazz? UPDATE [OnThaCouch] [ In reply to ]
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Hey all--

First off, I wanted to thank all the slowtwitchers that posted suggestions and feedback. I wanted to also post a follow up. Over the week I received an email from another club that include a great article on pack riding and paceline etiquette. I emailed it to our entire club. I got a great response from the club about how these guideline would be helpful on our "beginner/no-drop" rides.

I went to the "no-drop" ride last night and it was great. Ride leader was there and actually thanked me for sending out the email. He admitted that last week got a bit out of character for how the ride was supposed to go. He said he was going to be on top of it for future rides. Rules/ride tone was outlined from the top as well as the sprint zones and regroup spots. Pace was moderate and much more relaxed. People were having a good time. Ride leader and a few of the more experienced riders were checking in with all the riders. Everyone was safe and I think had a pretty good ride.

I guess the lesson learned for me was if you see something you think is "broken" step up with a solution. Sometimes these things work out for the better.

Tom

ps...for any NorCal folks looking to get a great early season tri in, don't forget about the IceBreaker on Sunday out a Folsom Lake. www.tbfracing.com We are also still looking for some kayak savvy volunteers. Get a cool t-shirt, food, RedBull, and a voucher good for $40 towards race entry. See the website for more details.





Embrace the suck--Anon.

Eagles Race Team--Napa CA
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