In the day & age of Amazon Prime, if these LBS don't get their shit together, they will no longer exist. They can't compete with price. Most of the time they don't have what you need in stock &
have to order it, losing on speed. The only thing they have left is knowledge & customer service, which most of the new shops are lacking.

I want to take my kids to an LBS for real bikes, rather than Walmart bikes.

It doesn't matter what you but a 10 year old - whether its a Walmart bike or a LBS bike - they are going to outgrow it in a few years.

Why buy them a $500+ LBS bike when you can get them a $100 Walmart...

will santa cruz compensate him for warranty work? if not, why would he do it? why would you do it? just make sure you're not blaming your LBS because of santa cruz's policy for warranty.

Thankfully not all bike shops are like that - but enough of them are, that there is this strong perception out there, that the sales help in many LBS's will not be that great.

Winning, someone back after that, is VERY hard. It's often over, in the first 30sec - 1min of interaction. Things happen that fast!

He said "if you buy from them we will not help you with any warranty work." It was a bit of a tangent and took me off guard, and it's not something I'd do anyway. If he wanted to go off on this tangent, what he should have said was: "If you end up buying it from them, I hope you'd buy tires/tubes/sealant/etc from us." Perhaps I just expect too much, but it cost them a sale in the end.

I like LBSs, in theory, but poor sales personalities really kill a lot of them for me.

I miss the quintessential salesmen. They were around 30+ years ago. Guys that were personable AND knowledgeable. I just don't find them anymore. At this point, I'd take personable over knowledgeable, at least on the sales side.

You may want to take off your rose colored glasses. Bike shops have always employed underskilled or cranky people at less than desirable wages.

you can't buy love ;)

Why buy them a $500+ LBS bike when you can get them a $100 Walmart...

I've become increasingly anti-LBS lately:
1. LBS pricing is crazy. Tires and components are often literally double the online price. I understand this is mostly driven by distribution costs and rules and that no one in an LBS is getting rich but it doesn't change the fact that charging $70+ for a GP4000sII when I get can get the exact same tire for $37 with free two-day shipping is ridiculous.

Your whole post is spot on. This point really hit home with me:



It's crazy when you can buy a tire online, then walk in to your LBS and give them $20 for the fun of it, and still make out ahead than buying a tire from them in the first place.

While this is true, it's not the LBS' fault. I have no idea how LBS should do to survive, and I have yet to see one thrive lately. Perhaps a consolidation of large online retailers with brick and mortar shops?

He said "if you buy from them we will not help you with any warranty work." It was a bit of a tangent and took me off guard, and it's not something I'd do anyway. If he wanted to go off on this tangent, what he should have said was: "If you end up buying it from them, I hope you'd buy tires/tubes/sealant/etc from us." .

While you wouldn't take in a frame bought elsewhere and expect warranty support, that store will have been exposed to a lot of customers who do expect that. And become angry when the store won't work for free.

You're right that his delivery was poor - he should have touted the benefits of purchasing through them - warranty support, free servicing etc rather than focusing on a negative.

I've become increasingly anti-LBS lately:
1. LBS pricing is crazy. Tires and components are often literally double the online price. I understand this is mostly driven by distribution costs and rules and that no one in an LBS is getting rich but it doesn't change the fact that charging $70+ for a GP4000sII when I get can get the exact same tire for $37 with free two-day shipping is ridiculous.

Umm, every original purchaser of a bike should expect that at ANY dealer that sells that manufacturer. That's part of the dealer agreement.

Not in my country. The distributors won't touch stuff bought off the internet either.

Shit sells online for 20% below their cost

Tires and other consumables are what grinds me.

I spend a lot at my LBS, but when I have to spend 2x the money on something that gets replaced every 6 to 9 months, I can't do that. I love the shop I go to, the people are great the shop lay out is great, the atmosphere is great, my wife picked it as the shop she wanted to do business with, they really hit it out of the park for that location.

However, the distribution network for bike parts is totally f&*%ed. Shit sells online for 20% below their cost, they have told me "I can't match that, that is a really good deal." So I buy something online and need help with it, here I come with some bagels and expecting to pay full price for services and whatever it takes to get my goodies working.

I bough ultegra road pedals today on CC for $94 shipped to my door. No way a brick and mortar can compare to what these volume online retailers do, it is a shame. Somethings I gladly pay retail on, others I need some kind of break on.

It's to the point though that, for many, that premium is too much. The difference between online vs LBS is big. And now with plenty of online resources for reviews/advice about anything cycling or otherwise there's less and less reason to go to your LBS. sure it would be nice to be able to go to my LBS and demo a bike I am interested in but there is almost a zero chance they have my size in stock.

Yes, they are required to buy from distributors like the Q. Shimano has its own network, and they struggle with global pricing controls. SO the Q dumped shimano, which is why the Q started the iSSi brand pedals. Say you owned rijndael handlebar company, you would contract with QBP to be the US distributor for your handlebars, and any LBS could sell them as long as they buy form QBP. You would then have a different distributor for Europe. In shimano's case they have different pricing structures in Europe and the US and that is why you see such pricing disparities.

The things that kill the LBS I think are, QBP and piss poor pricing controls from companies like Shimano and Continental.

Smaller brands have strong pricing control using MAPs (minimum advertised price) and the like. Kickr is really firm on their MAP, that is why you don't see sale pricing on them often. Same with Garmin and Stages. Retailers can only sell those brands at a discount when the manufacturer lets them.

SRAM has really stepped up their price control system as well.


QBP has different levels for retailers based on total sales, so some shops can get parts way faster assuming they are in stock at the Q. Living in the same metro as QBP headquarters, if I call the shop right away in the morning, there is a chance I can get that part the same day.

Slowman could do a better job of describing the retailer, manufacturer, distributor relationship.

TriTamp wrote:

This is how you should shop at the LBS

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XFWeoxrhbE8

You may want to take off your rose colored glasses. Bike shops have always employed underskilled or cranky people at less than desirable wages. I say this as someone who worked in a bike shop in the 90s. The internet has just made you more knowledgeable and given you better alternatives.

i have had a similar experience.
Local bike shop cant/wont match a price a competitor has (45min drive away) for a tarmac thats $300 cheaper. I get the tarmac from other shop. After a while i decide to swap out cranks to shimano and a few other minor mech things. Give it to local bike shop, they say no worries they can do it. They take the bike. Then i get a text message a day later from the owner saying he has changed his mind, doesnt believe thats how a local bike shop should be treated (despite the fact i have bought another bike from them and other miscellaneous stuff) and that not only will he not do the work, i should 'rethink using his shop' again as he and I have apparently different views on what customer service is and its worth. So not only can i not return to his shop for anything, i am not welcome on his shop rides.
I dug a little deeper and found he has done this to several people- wont work on non-store bought bikes IF he knows you shaped him up to competitors. He has burnt a lot of bridges in my area to the point where he is now laying off good staff because he is losing money. Karma really.

it's surprising he's still in business. sounds like he's on the way out. I know of at least one bike shop that actually advertises their service for bike assembly from box.

A bike shop won't buy from Wiggle because they don't want to give Wiggle any more profit.

That's a tough setup there but my question for you is this.

Why don't you go to the bike shop that you bought the bike from? Is it because of the 1 hour drive?

ETA: who's it karma for you? Or the bike shop? Do you now have to drive 90 mins to get your bike tuned up? If so, yikes. So if there are other closer shops yes he was stupid. Well he was stupid in decision making but if you are now stuck w 90 min drive for any bike stuff, that's not much fun either. Certainly not likely worth $300 in bike savings.

But that's not to let LBS owner off, your a repeat customer to him. It sounds like he simply did to you what you did to him.

If you only base purchasing decisions on price, I can see why you would be anti-LBS. But if you hit up a place that knows how to delivery great customer service, you don't mind paying a premium for items since you know you are getting overall value.

I've been to Amsterdam....I disagree

Yes, a lot of LBSs are really doing things quite badly, especially where slightly more experienced or demanding customers are concerned.
I would think there are two main modern challenges to their role:
1. Internet sales undercutting their pricing
2. Availability of low cost bikes from mainstream sources (Target, Walmart, etc)

If bike shops can'd compete on price they have to distinguish themselves in the areas where they can potentially compete: product and general advice, follow-up support, easiness and confidence in purchase decisions, speed of acquisition, customisation, and feel-good factor. However, instead of accepting the pricing situation and maximising their strengths, many shops seem to try and bully, scare or guilt their potential customers into buying from them. Surely this rarely works and either way it will leave a bitter taste in the customers mouth?
If selling bikes isn't profitable, try and make the money elsewhere. Do what you're good at. Don't try and sell a bike with the promise of free servicing. Just try and sell your excellent servicing. If a shop knows they can't compete on price, they'd be better off simply telling the customer that, and explaining their choices, without judgement or anger. In all seriousness, a bike shop who owns up to the fact they can't compete for a particular sale but gives advice and/or remains pleasant anyway, will buy themselves good will and convey a sense of honesty and helpfulness that is what will keep people coming back. Then, when the stuff you're good at comes along, be it small day to day purchases, servicing, or maybe even fitting, they'll be back. If a shop was abrupt with me when they realised I was probably going to buy a bike online rather than from them, I wouldn't come back looking for other services later.
I have a Canyon roadbike. Any shop will know I bought it online. If I know they openly resent that, I'm not going to let them service my bike. I'll go to the guy who accepts that online bike sales are legitimate and sensible and is happy to do the thing he's good at, i.e. service the bike. Trying to shame customers for making good purchases will never work in the long run.

On a slight tangent but a related note, a friend of mine bought a new road bike from the LBS a few years ago. He got a decent deal on the bike and all was good. He was a reasonable cyclist, not hugely strong but alright. He mostly cycled on the flat. A few weeks later he came for a ride in the mountains with me and he really suffered on the steeper climbs. I had a look and saw he was using a 12-25 cassette. I suggested a bigger sprocket would really make a difference for future rides and recommended he switch to a 12-27 or similar cassette. I even mentioned that I'd seen them on sale at http://www.chainreactioncycles.com the previous week. He decided to go back to the shop and give them a bit more custom instead. Commendably, he preferred to spend his money locally and he'd probably get them to fit it while he was at it. So he went back to the LBS and asked them if they had a 12-27 cassette in stock. They told him he didn't need it. He explained that he had started riding in the mountains and planned to continue but had found he needed a smaller gear. They told him he didn't need it, they wouldn't sell it to him and he just needed to train more.
My friend left and has never been back. He bought a cassette online, I lent him my chain whip and lockring adaptor. Who needs that crap!
I've detected hints of this sort of thing from other LBSs myself. An attitude of superiority like they were doing you a favour selling you something. Also, less subtle, when I was shopping for my tri bike, an attitude that they were entitled to your custom. I ended up buying my tri-bike online as well. If I remember correctly, I got my Felt IA14 for €3180 online rather than €4299 locally. I don't hold that against the LBS. I'm sure it's not their fault, but they are making a huge mistake when they imply that it's the customers fault. Do they really think I'll pay about 33% more, more than €1100 for their advice (which I don't need) and a couple of free services, that I can do myself and are only worth maybe €150 anyway? They need to fix the cost problem if they can or accept the situation if they can't. There's no point in getting annoyed with your customers. It's not their job to support your business. It's your job to attract their business.

There is more money to be made on the $4,000 bike than the cheap townies.

"if you buy from them we will not help you with any warranty work."

two things. first, just make sure he wasn't making the same statement you would make if you were him. will santa cruz compensate him for warranty work? if not, why would he do it? why would you do it? just make sure you're not blaming your LBS because of santa cruz's policy for warranty.

second, let's say that he would be compensated by santa cruz for warranty. i this case you're absolutely right. this is one reason we are getting ready to announce a confederacy of shops called "spoke alliance" and one of the hallmarks of this group of shops is the absense of that pouting and nonsense.

Do we as reasonably affluent consumers (in aggregate) OWE our LBS anything?

I'm pretty sure there are contractual issues with doing what you suggest.

I'm almost positive it would be breach of contract and liability issues.

ETA: the key for an LBS to make it is not to get caught up in the "sale". That's when I think stores get away from their core and only intererested in money. Stored need to market the experience that the customer will have w the shop. If that's done right, *most* people will pay for it. They are willing to pay for the experience of choosing between 3 bikes and the pro/cons of each choice and have someone to bounce ideas off of. That purchasing experience is what consumers want/hope/expect.