Bike more. I dropped my run from 3.53 to 3.23 in IM.

Remember that 10 minutes lost on the bike can equal to 30 minutes gained on the run.



Paul

---

Looking like a color blind super hero!
Damn triathlon.

a little bit of a different question but along the same road...is there a general thought on how much slower your IM marathon generally is that your stand alone marathon time?

I couldn't agree more. All the run training and ability means nothing if you're ON or NEAR 'Empty' when you leave T2.

---

I wanna go fast!

Bike More.

Work on Swim and more importantly Bike Pacing

Work on Bike and Run nutrition

Work on running strong (not fast). Build volume through frequency (run 5-6 X's per week) Train in the hills and rolling terrain. Do some trail running. 40 to 50 miles (edit from: 30-40 upon reflection :-) a week with proper bike training/pacing/nutrition there shouldn't be a problem to run 3:40-3:45.

this is not an indictment, but a question. i read a lot here that more biking will improve IM run splits. I even hear it a lot from some guys i ride with (who, when they do/did ironman races, would ride huge miles). inevitably among these guys, they ALL blew up on the run (multiple times for more than one person). but yet they still all say they need to improve thir riding and ride more.

me on the other hand, in my one ironman race, probably did more running than biking in preparation (not total miles, but proportionate training), had a decent bike split and a pretty good run split.

so why not run more? sure you can't start the run shattered from the bike. but you can start the run fresh as a daisy, and if you can''t put out a decent run time, you'll still suck on the run. isn't it really about managing expectations/performance on the bike? how many guys do you hear say "i went too hard on the bike, if i had only biked more . . ." hell, why not NOT go too hard on the bike? is it "the bike is God" mentality sometimes appearing on this forum. why not exhibit some self control based on how you biked in training, and then KNOW what you'll have left for the run? wait, your stomach shut down on the bike, which it never did in training? maybe because you never rode that hard for 5-6 hours in training and then tried to run.

whose quote was it that bike fitness is like a nuclear arsenal - best when NOT used? so why use it if you ahve it, or why try to use it if you DON'T have it, and then screw the pooch ( a classic Corey Feldman quote) on the run.

Again, i am not indicting anyone, just trying to learn/understand. my way may well be wrong. i would love to hear from those who have tried/done it both ways, or those who coach athletes and how they prep those athletes.

thanks

Some good points. Say you want to run a 3:30 IM split which is an 8min/mile pace. You had better be doing most of your runs at a 7min/mile pace. You also need to keep run volume high, meaning 40-50 miles per week. 30-35 miles/week isn't enough to achieve your potential.

One of, if not the, the top AG IMers regularly on this forum told me (the whole forum?) he focused on run training last year. Sub-5 bike, 3:10 run. Just another data point.

---

----------------------------------
"Go yell at an M&M"

I have to agree that the bike is extremely important and sets up the run. However, I also believe the only way to run better is to run more. I also think that certain runners/triathletes can only handle so many miles. I think you need to balance running alot of miles with how much you personally can handle w/o injuries.

If you cannot run well your upside is limited in the sport. No manner how well you swim or bike you need to back it with a decent run. I do not think it is uncommon for elite/pro atheletes to run 70+ a week.

Bottom line.... you want to finsh the run comfortably bike alot. You want to run fast run alot, but also keep your bike mileage high.

I have never really subscribed to the bike more theory to help the run but it apparently works for others. I found over the course of 10 IMs that to improve my run times I had to increase my volume and intensity (pace) in training. I stay in the 35-45 miles/week range and typically run somewhere around 3:30-3:45 - not extremely fast but still pass a lot of folks. I am also a big believer in intense power crank sessions to help the run but that is a different thread altogether!

Any more details Ken? What age group and how much run training / bike training compared to previous years?

---

http://j-motrilife.blogspot.com/

Running more is great, but an IM run is pretty slow, even a "fast" IM run is slow. I would consider running a 7.30 mile in an IM fast, but in reality all that is a fast jog, shuffle. If you build a huge base on the bike, running at that pace should not be a problem. Running a lot/long is a great invitation for injury. Personally I never run more than 12-13 miles, but I try to run frequently.

All that said, I have only done two IMs. In Florida I gave thought to biking 4.50ish, but decided to hold back a bit. Came in with a 5.06 split and was able to shuffle thru a 3.23 marathon,which once again is not that fast. When I came of the bike I felt like I bike 20 miles not 112. In order to be fresh here I had to slow down on the bike.

---

Looking like a color blind super hero!
Damn triathlon.

I argue with a friend of mine all the time over this approach. I do agree that bike endurance is imperative if you want to be able to run after the bike but I think in order to run a good IMan marathon you better be prepared to run a really fast stand alone marathon. The trick is holding back on the bike. It's tough to hold back enough on the bike because even if your comfortable you're probably still going too hard. It's all about the run!

I'm assuming this is you:

04' IMLP....Swim 1:15 Need to work on swim lots of energy going into just staying afloat. :-) Your IMF swim was much better.

Bike:

Lap1: 2:47

Lap2: 3:02

Delta: 15 minutes

Generally people who do "well" relatively at LP on the run have a delta of 10 minutes or less. 10 - 15 minutes is a witching zone were it's hit or miss. Above 15 minutes it's usually a long day on the run.

So was it pacing or nutrition or endurance?

Florida bike there wasn't a split posted. Your time: 5:2X??



Run at L.P.

Lap One: 1:58

Lap Two: 2:14

Generally to say you had a good run you want it below the Dev. Paul's 10 minutes positive split rule. :-)

So was the drop off on the second lap....Due to bike pacing, bike nutrition, run pacing, run nutrion....

My 0.2 cents. :-)

to be fair if i remember this post correctly, this particular Age group already had a devastatingly fast bike split though right? (and i dare say quite a few years of IM training in him)

I think if you've only 1-2 IM races under your belt you should still focus on bike volume and running focus should be on running "strong" (as posted above) with consistent(not huge) volume, plenty of hills/trails and tempo runs rather than flat out speed work.

with 3-4 IM under your belt you are probably closer to a maxing out your bike performance and have also built up strong endurance legs over this period. At this point i think the increased run volume/speed work combination can be sustained without injury and hence yield better run results come race day.

---

-----------------------------------------------
www.true-motion.com Triathlete Casual Wear since 2007
(Twitter/FB)

Thanks for the reply!

At IMLP, I think I slowed down on the run because I had simply not run enough in preparation it being my first IM (focused alot on bikes miles in training, felt decent off the bike and had no nutrition issues). In sum, it was my first race of this distance and my legs just wore down, particularly after 18-20 miles.

At IMFL I had at 5:24 bike split holding back quite a bit for most the ride (ave HR 142). In fact, I think I would have negatively split the ride but for the headwind the last couple miles. In retrospect, I actually think I should have pushed it a bit more. For the run I was around 57:30 + 1:00:30 = 1:58 for the first loop then 1:02:30 + 1:03 = 2:05:30 for loop 2 for a total time of 4:03:38, meaning I postively split it by about 7:30 minutes. Again, no real nutrition problems though the heat on the first loop was an issue (ave HR throughout was 148). I ascribe the improvement from IMFL to an increase in volume, frequency, more running at slightly faster than IM pace and better bike pacing.

This being the best I could muster, however, I am wondering if a 3:40-3:45 is within the realm for next year even if I can slowly build the volume to 40-45 miles a week without injury (including running 5x a week with alot of running at 7:00-7:30 pace) while continuing to improve the bike and swim (though I think they need somewhat less work) to get to where I want?

Be real interested in hearing from anyone who has made such a jump in a year and what they thought the keys to success were.

"Same bike volume as in previous years (150/wk ave, peak 200), maybe slightly higher run volume (48 mls/wk ave, peak 55), but obviously if you knock 6 miles off your longest run then you're going to increase your run frequency a little. So the total quality for the week goes up and the beatings go down if you drop your super-long runs."

35-39. More run miles, at faster pace. Clearly, this guy had the "base", talent, and previous results. Not to mention hours in the week...

---

----------------------------------
"Go yell at an M&M"

Hate to break it to you guys, but training for an Ironman requires you to run a lot and bike a lot and swim some too. What am I missing??

I think you need a combination of bike miles to build strength, intelligent pacing on the bike so you have something left in the tank, and doing your running at a pace much faster than your 3:40 goal pace so your "slow down" due to the 6-7 hour warmup isn't huge. I've spent the past few years relying on my run background and only done in the 35-40 mile/week range while training for IM and ramped my bike miles up 160-200k/wk more than in previous years. This year (if I can ever get my leg injuries to heal up), I'm planning on tapping into the base I've been building on the bike and maybe doing a little less but cranking up my running to 60+ mile/weeks in the new year to see if I can get down close to 3:00 in an IM.

i went 4:25 in IMFL (my first) then 3:54 in IMLP 7 months later. If anything, my running was superior going into FL (long runs ~18 miles versus ~16 for Lake Placid and I had quicker foot speed).

I think the reason for the significant run improvement at Lake Placid was because my biking volume was higher, I had better focus on weekly ME/Force bike workouts on the trainer and i was running in much hillier terrain (rural CT rather than central park).

Caveats to the above being the only reasons for improvement are:
- a flat bike with no resting might have taken more out of your legs than hillier with descents to rest on.
- Less "fear" so perhaps less conservative in the second race
- Coke (not used in IMFL, but heavily used in IMLP)

---

-----------------------------------------------
www.true-motion.com Triathlete Casual Wear since 2007
(Twitter/FB)

I dropped from 3.53 to a 3.23 in one year by doing alot of trainer work during the winter.

Otherwise my bike/run week looked like this:

Mon - Morning run 7 miles, Evening 1.5 hr bike (indoor)

Wed - Morning run 13 miles

Thu - Morning run 6.5 miles, Evening 2.5hr bike (indoors)

Fri - Morning run 8.5 miles, Evening 1.0 hr bike (indoors)

Sat - Run 8.5 miles

Sun - BIke 80-100 outside, 20 minute transition run

95% of my running was at 8 min pace

I hate riding around Chicago, that is why there are so many indoor sessions

---

Looking like a color blind super hero!
Damn triathlon.

Rockhopper,

How much swimming were you doing?

My swimming has come a long way in the past three years. i swam three sessions a week or about 11,000-12,000 yards. This winter will swim 4 sessions. My swim time in Florida was 1.10. Slow but three years ago I swam 15 yards without stopping.

Paul

---

Looking like a color blind super hero!
Damn triathlon.

I don't agree that in order to do a 3:30 you have to do most of your taining runs at 7min/mile pace. I ran a 3:35 at IM CDA last year and it was my first marathon. I did do some speed run workouts (1-2/week) but most of my runs were around 8 min/mile pace especially my long runs. I also don't agree with the 40-50 mi/wk. I averaged 28-30 miles/ week training for IM CDA. Everyone's different.

From your results the proof is in the pudding. You are probably a very good runner naturally and could go a lot faster with increased pace and milage.

For most runners I know if they train at 8min/mile they will typically run their ironman at a 9-10 min/mile pace.

"Everyone's different." That is the bottom line, and the same training each yr. will not produce the same results. IM training means to run, ride and swim lots and lots. My comment is, IMFL is FLAT FLAT FLAT, so w/ the suggestions of solid endurance running days on a hilly course, 3-7 mile tempo days (which are key) and brick days, you will improve your time. Weekly run miles of 30-45 should do the trick. Keep your cycle miles up, but balance your riding w/ the change in your run training and you will rock. Sometimes less is more. Anything is realistic if you set your mind to it. OH, and run w/ runners who are faster than you once to twice a week. I ran 20 mins. slower than my stand alone marathon PR at the 1999 IMFL, and it was my first IM. Best of luck and happy tri training to you! Eat to run, and be patient in the beginning. Never quit, and the last 10K is ALL in your head.

Every course is different too. Throw in hills and wind into the mix, and you never know how things will turn out on the run.

As far as riding more, I think riding 5 double centuries in the spring is good preparation for the Silverman course in Lake Mead. The Silverman RUN is like no other. I encourage all those looking to challenge yourself to the next level, then cash in your chips, and travel to Vegas to race in HENDERSON, NV. next yr.

Keep the rubber side down.

Good point abot the run pace. Bottom line if 3:30 is your IM marathon run goal 8:00 min/miles needs to be your run all day pace. I have found a strong correlation between the pace at wich one runs THE most miles at over a long period of time and ones' IM marathon best case race pace. ie if you historically have put in a huge number of 8:00 min/miles and can run that pace in your sleep and all day long regardless of leg fatigue and how you feel, that's going to be your bast case IM race pace. Not sure if 9 months is enough of a long time for this. I was thinking more interms of years.

Some more points:

1. Depending on ones background it may be about more cycling or it may be about more running.

2. Whatever the case increases in volume for both will be beneficial.

3. Run and ride in hilly terrain ALL the time. Specifically running. Can't stress this enough. Always be looking for hills to run up and down.

4. Fitness is one thing but race day pacing is just as critical. Suggest NOT logging onto Slowtwitch with in a month of IMC due to all the talk/chatter/hype here about the bike and hammering. This is a 112 mile bike ride NOT at 20 K ITT. If the IM bike ride feels anything more challenging than a moderatly hard training ride, you are going to hard!

Fleck

---

---

Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

I'm in your camp too. I had my best IM run split at CDA this year (3:47) and never ran one single training mile faster than 9 min/mile (not counting the other races I did). I've been injury prone due to running 'fast' so I focused on consistency and frequency....running up to 7 times per week. This helped me a lot. Granted, to improve on this I will eventually need to increase my running pace in training but I'm pretty happy with where I'm at now.

I'm surprised nobody has mentioned anything about brick workouts. Last year training for IM CDA I usually did a 40-60 min run (8 min/mile) after my long bike ride (100miles). This year I think I'm going to alternate my brick workouts a bit and do 70-80 miles hard rides followed by 60-90 minute runs (7:30/ mile) one week and then the next week do what I did last year. The multisports.com crew said you should never do longer than a 60 min. run during a brick. They might be right, but I'm going to do the longer brick runs anyway. During the IM CDA race last year, I just felt like my legs had never felt that kind of fatigue before, and I'm hoping longer brick runs will prepare me better.

Anybody have any experience with doing a marathon in the off-season. I'm training for the OC marathon in early January and then planning on doing IM CDA in June. I would like to do a 3:05-3:10 marathon at OC but now I'm starting to reconsider because I've seen a few threads by guys who did marathons (and ran hard) in the off-season and they were injured or had crappy results during the tri-season. I'm also planning on doing Ralph's and Honu prior to CDA.

Goodness gracious, this question/query gets put forward a lot.

1. If you MUST run a marathon or there is a burning NEED to run a marathon then run one. However, do not look for that marathon run/race to have a direct positive impact on your triathlon performance with in that year. It will most likley have a negative impact on what your triathlon performance may have been.

2. The better approach is to do a running camp or block and take 1 - 3 months and just run. Get out as much as you can and just run. Don't worry about pace. Don't worry about heart rate. Just embrace running. First increase weekly frequency( days running/week) and then slowly increase volume. Focus on running an absolute best time for the 10K or the 1/2 marathon. This approach will have a positive impact on your running WITHIN the year and for years to come.

Fleck

---

---

Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

What Fleck said. Especially if you have important races in March.

---

-
"Yeah, no one likes a smartass, but we all like stars" - Thom Yorke


smartasscoach.tri-oeiras.com

I've done IM CDA the last two years and I improved my run by :25! I accomplished this by doing several things: 1) staying more hydrated on the bike 2) riding more conservative the 1st loop 3) using endurolytes on the bike 4) not walking due to cramping at mile 6, 14, 18 5) working into the run and not trying to run 7s off the bike.

Here are my approx. splits: Swim 27/27, bike 2:48/2:55, run 1:50/1:45 =10:20

I raced the way I trained with a very cosistant pace controlling my HR. I neg. split the run because I went out slow and stayed hydrated. The year before my run was like 1:40/2:15! I know the swim and run are my strengths, so I don't try to kill myself on the bike. However, before my next IM I realized I've got to get better on the bike if I ever want to qualify!

Suggestions:Brick workouts, LSD runs, Training HR, Training the way you plan to race!

Good luck!

---

Enjoy the journey!

I just finished Ken Mierke's book on Evolution running for triathletes. I thought it was very informative. We'll see if it pans out.

---

_________________
Dick

Take everything I say with a grain of salt. I know nothing.