Also you have to hand it to Tim Don in second. Don was racing Island house tri a few weeks ago and made the trek across to China over 13 time zones. If you guys recall, Amberger was trying to get more US base pros to come over to race at 70.3 WC's this Sep on a few posts on ST.

Big congrats to Josh!!! I will say that this is probably the best feature to having a more fair race. Kuddos for closing down two lanes in the most populated country in the world. From my eyes on paper this is one of the more far and realistic race splits I have seen.

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I have a couple of athletes racing there (both won their Age group btw #humblebrag) .

They both said the city looks like it could be as crowded as HK or Sinapore but that there is < half the people around. I'm sure that makes it easier to close roads, and, well, China.

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Brian Stover USAT LII
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it appears that the chase group did not have a chance to bunch together and get a free tow up to Amberger (and yes, there was less horsepower in the chase group than at 70.3 WC). //

Great race by Josh, but there is so much wrong with your statement here. Take a look at the field here and then take a look at the WC field, less horsepower is a understatement that, well just not a word for it. And there is no free ride when you are in a group that is riding 12m apart, you should know that by now. And even if some group had formed of all the guys chasing, they were not going to catch him for 2 reasons. First is that he is just the fastest rider there, and secondly this free ride that does not exist would not have been nearly enough for that group of guys to outride him. (not saying no advantage, but a few watts is about as opposite of a free ride as you can get)


In the WC the guys on the front got caught by stronger riders, with some cling ons who later blew up because they overbiked, just like in Hawaii. Also in the WC race, everyone is shaved and tapered, not like some normal race you show up to every weekend, so one would expect to see everyone on top form and going for it.


And lastly it is a ton easier to watch guys riding when there are virtually no groups to monitor. Marshals will of course become more effective if their job is 10 times easier. A race with no one riding in a group or together will always be the most fair, but that is not to say a stacked field with everyone on their game is also not a fair race..

Thanks for the love. It was definitely a really hard fought race. Guys know how I race, & they know how Don races. Two totally different tactics, but always makes for an exciting race should there be no 'interruptions', and we're both allowed to do our thing.

This was a really good event. The swim for instance was actaully challenging. There is a 5m swing in high-low tides (read epic tide changes for non-metric folk), so they timed the swim that the pros went off close to high tide with a strong current, and most AG, particulary the slower AG'ers got the slack ebb tide. I swam 26 mins, 5 mins slower than 70.3 Worlds. The bike course was pretty straight forward though rather hilly in a light sense. Kind of like Coeur d'Alene but not as steep inclines. Epic paved asphalt, as always in China, and wide roads. The run was gruelling, no shade, a relentless shuffle to the finish line.

In a credit to the Chinese, this race was livestream entirely on 4 TV chanells. For chopper treatment the entire race. These guys are serious. Why IronmanLive didn't piggy back it... I don't know. Would have been cool.

Unrelated to the race, but not so sure about prior pompous remarks about 12m draft zones. It's pretty clear there is a big advantage to be had even at this distance. This is not anecdotal. Don't argue. Accept. Move on.

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http://www.josh-amberger.com/

Fantastic win. Must have been tough to keep the hammer down for the entire 4 hours racing totally solo all day. I agree on the epic smooth pavement in China and also pretty cool that they featured you guys or live TV. Judging from the swim times, it really looked slow. I assume this was also a no wetsuit swim for everyone. I assume by now there is some talk of a 70.3 World's in China at some point in the future? I know people will ask but I assume that air quality was pretty decent ? Finally one more question: With the number of international racers did they have instructions in several languages?

Unrelated to the race, what is next on your racing agenda for the Southern Hemisphere summer? Do you take a break now or you took one earlier and you're in a full blown build for Aussie season?

Congrats on the podium wins of your guys! As for closing the road, if the government supports what you are doing, then anything will happen in China. Having the chairman of Dalian Wanda backing all this is probably slightly helpful!

Josh,

Do you ever post power files?

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Not wanting to take anything away from Josh Amberger, but what a performance by that Chinese dude who took the overall AG race aged somewhere 50-54. Assuming he will take the Kona slot, he will be one to watch out for - 12 mins faster than Sarah Piampiano today, who went 9:22 just a few weeks ago in Kona.

Sometimes I do, but I haven't done it for a while. This one in interesting because of the two lap course. My conditioning this time of year is not good, I've been racing since Dubai 70.3 in Janurary and running in fumes. I really suffered on the second lap of the bike, but you wouldn't know this if you based your assumption on lap splits. My second lap was maginally slower by a matter of seconds, but the power on the 2nd lap dropped 15-18w off the top of my head without having looked at the file. This is from the 45km of constant slipstreaming passing AG racers the entire second lap.

I know from the casual reading I've done on this forum that you're perhaps a bit of skeptic. Anything in particular you would like to see in my file?

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http://www.josh-amberger.com/

The Chinese athletes certainly were impressive, it seems there's some talent here for sure. I met this fast guy in particular at the expo, as we are both Felt athletes. The people are nuts for tri here, and the business of it all seems good too. Maserati as one of the sponsors? Come on, where's my leased car for a year?? Haha.

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http://www.josh-amberger.com/

That's the way I've been racing for a long time. Of course, you don't hear my name in the news each race, so let's say it doesn't work to the effect it did in Xiamen every time! It's a long slog at the front, but I'm a front runner and I must always play to my strengths.

Xiamen was a great host city, and from what I've seen of China, definitely the cleanest place. That being said, the air today is not good. Yesterday it was fair but still noticiable during the race, it felt at points like I was racing at alitude. I think it's all subject to wind direction in China, and the past two days has seen very little wind at all.

Everything was clearly signed, and briefed in Chinese and Engligh. The course was fully closed and barricaded the entire way, with funnilly enough thousands of spectators lining a fair portion of the course. It was a very very professional production.

Immediate plans for now are to get home and start the off-season! I normally go camping each year, and I'm book with Ash to head off on Thursday to Moreton Island for a week and disconnect. I make a video of the trips each year
https://vimeo.com/145981461
https://vimeo.com/115429438

In terms of racing plans, I'll probably sgtart back again with Dubai 70.3 early in 2017. Then go full tilt for IMSA.

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http://www.josh-amberger.com/

Hey Josh - Thanks much for chiming in here!!! Swimming Q for you since you are one the fastest tri swimmers: what kind of time could you do for say a 1500 scm, e.g. in a 25-m pool say like the Wed before an IM on Sat/Sun??? I'm gonna guesstimate 16:00-16:30-ish??? I ask b/c one coach on here swears he has athletes who only go 18:00 but b/c they're good at drafting they can swim 48 in an IM swim, which I am skeptical of. If the swim is really 2.4 miles or 3860 m, with no current assist, then you'd need to average 1:14.6/100 m, in OW with no rest on the turns. I don't see how an 18:00 1500 scm swimmer could pull this off since he/she is only averaging 1:12 for 1500 scm, even if he/she were wearing a wettie. Your thoughts???

Cheers,

Eric

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"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

It is a much longer discussion than I am prepared to get into at the moment. In short, I think we need to study the effects of changes in rider .cDa across different races and scenarios. I do think with the help of a company like Best Bike Split that we could see drastic .cDA changes from race to race when it should be relatively constant. Without the data we don't get to see it.

Looking back just now at 70.3 Worlds, we have 0, count that 0, bike files posted on Strava. That blows me away that nobody was willing to publish that race. We as pros knows that the data is basically meaningless, but it would seem it would be great publicity for athletes so it surprises me that no data is available.

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There is plenty of publicly available data to do just that, even from Josh (here and here, for a couple examples). At 65 kg, he's stronger on the hillier courses, even though he'll not ever make Lionel watts. I'm too lazy to run his shit through BBS, but I suspect he's fairly aero as well, and he seems disciplined with respect to his position. The secret to his cycling prowess is largely power to weight, and his achilles heal historically has been that he doesn't pace himself -- though he seems to be maturing as an athlete in doing just that. Good for him.

All that said, I do dislike when pros won't release data or release data inconsistently. I appreciate the rappstar school of open data and think Chris Lieto is a bit of a douche nozzle for guarding his data for his entire career, as if there's some secret. Because: there isn't. Watts/CdA and Watts/kg. Josh seems to be transitioning to a Lieto position on this issue, which is a shame, but it's his data and he can do with it what he wants. I don't think there's much 'publicity' in it for the guy one way or another.



And we as amateurs know that data is meaningful and those who say or think otherwise might be common morons.

Was the last bit supposed to be in pink? The single data point is meaningless without context, and really unless you were there you can't obtain the context. Thanks for the Garmin links, but what I am really looking for gobs and gobs of data that we can look at across multiple races, draw realistic .cDa conclusions and then look for outliers and why those outliers may exist. I definitely have an agenda here, but not the drive, passion, and time to properly explain it it at the current time.

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[quote Thomas Gerlach
Looking back just now at 70.3 Worlds, we have 0, count that 0, bike files posted on Strava. That blows me away that nobody was willing to publish that race.[/quote]
Guess I don't count in the TG World............... ;)

You can always find my power files Thomas, nothing to hide from my end.

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-Brad Williams
Website | Twitter: @BW_Tri |Instagram: @BW_Tri | Strava | Co-Founder & Coach at: KIS Coaching
Partnered with: Zoot Sports | Precision Fuel &Hydration | ISM

It was the same in Hefei as well. They are supposed to be doing NBC Sports airings of the races as well. As soon as I hear the dates I will let you guys know. They have a ton of footage so should be a good broadcast. As Josh mentioned, not sure why they haven't piggy backed the live CCTV footage onto IM Live, maybe a lack of commentator resources or the general thought that there would be a lack of interest from the "general" spectators of IM races?

As Josh pointed out with the currents, this was the case. Only the PROS were non wetsuit, everyone else had the option. This was the most time I have lost in a swim in the last 2 years. I came out with the same guys I came out with in Hefei, but of course the tough swim hurt us weak swimmers even more.

I haven't heard anything along those lines. My thought would be that we would see 70.3 Asia Pacific Champs there as early as 2017 (as I haven't seen a race announced yet for that), and if not '17, I would assume '18. I would think 70.3 Worlds could be a possibility for 2019, think that is the next time they are in Asia Pacific?

Like Josh said the 2 days leading up to the events I thought it was actually really good. Then on race day it was the worst I had seen it. I had some breathing issues post race, just when taking super deep breaths, but cannot say for sure that it was directly related to the air quality.

I would assume the Athlete Guide on the website would be the best source as it should show what briefings they had. The pro briefing was English only. Paul Kaye had a translator with him on race day and at the awards banquet. So anything on stage that was said in English was translated.

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-Brad Williams
Website | Twitter: @BW_Tri |Instagram: @BW_Tri | Strava | Co-Founder & Coach at: KIS Coaching
Partnered with: Zoot Sports | Precision Fuel &Hydration | ISM

Guess I don't count in the TG World............... ;)

You can always find my power files Thomas, nothing to hide from my end.[/quote]
Brad, sorry, yes, I guess your is in there. I did my cursory search via the WC segment. Your bike split didn't bubble to the surface because of all those quick quick quick age-group times, but thank you. That 278 watts for a ~2:17 surely is unaided.

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Yes, unaided, self destructing blow up. FlyBy is always interesting to use if multiple people actually upload their files. That is another good way to see who uploaded at least a .GPX file.

Think there are a few posted from Xiamen if you wanted to look through that. Think Metzler posted, who was in the group, and I believe Dougal posted who had the 2nd fastest split, and then maybe Matt Lieto did as well?

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-Brad Williams
Website | Twitter: @BW_Tri |Instagram: @BW_Tri | Strava | Co-Founder & Coach at: KIS Coaching
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Brad thanks for sharing all this info.

To Josh, at ~65 kilos, your bike splits on flatter courses are pretty impressive. I am sure many of us would love to see your file from Xiamen given that it was an ITT. Again, congrats on your race and have a nice short break before your build to IM South Africa. Is that your first IM? Why did you opt to fly halfway around the world from Australia to South Africa when there are IM's closer to home? Hopefully they have whitecaps in the Indian Ocean so you can get a nice lead out of the water. Your aeroness should be a good advantage in the perpetually windy Port Elizabeth. It's basically on the transition point between warm Indian Ocean water and freezing South Atlantic water, so always seems to have a solid wind.

 
I'm sorry, what exactly are you saying? Are you suggesting you need to see my data to believe that my race was 'pure'?

I've posted a ton of data in the past. Both in training and from races. In particular from many of my other 'ITT' wins. I would think that after 8x 70.3 wins since 2012 that my performances to my peers would be believable. I haven't posted data from many of my races this year simply because it's not a priority, and I feel I have proven myself as a competitor and no longer need to make statements like 'look at my numbers, I'm awesome AF'. Which is basically only 1 of two reasons why I feel anyone would post data. The other reason is basically to say, here's my numbers, it's arbitrary proof everyone cheated. Some people might see posting data as a measure of 'transperency', but I just don't share the same priorities.

My priority after races is as such;
-Connecting with my family and friends who've likely given up half their day following shitty ittermitent or innacurate splits
-Immediate post-race commitments, presentations, socialising with other athletes etc.
-Probably throwing back a few beers then getting some sleep
-Packing my bike and getting out of town, more than likely getting on a long haul flight
-Writing emails and updating sponsors, finding race pictures, gaining permission to use race pictures, hopefully drafting invoices if it was a successful race
-Adapting back to training at home or trying to find my bearings in a new locale, or maybe even getting ready for another race in a few days time

I used to write a lot of blogs, which was where most of my data was posted. Naturally over the years this has tapered off as my focus has moved more into striving for performance, and less on talking about such performances. Sometimes I don't even look at my race data post-race. For me, it's valuable most in the moment of racing. That is my focus on using power. If you don't like this, then I'm sorry, but trying to prove my performance to a forum hack is not really on my immediate to-do list post race. And I didn't post my Worlds data to Strava because I don't have a Strava.

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http://www.josh-amberger.com/

And here I thought we would get to celebrate an ITT win!!! Sorry it went that way. I think the interest in seeing your data comes from being able to see what it takes to put down a 2:03 when you have no competitors to benefit from. And given your size the 2:03 is double impressive. It's not like you. are built like Starky or have levers like Marino, Lieto or Faris!

Yeah so this strikes me as total bullshit and completely disingenuous. Posting data is just not a priority for you, as if it is some time consuming thing. It isn't. It takes literally less than a minute. Or it would take a handful of seconds to just say, like Jordan and Brad and Thomas do, that your AP was x and your NP was y. The reason you might consider posting data is exactly the reason we are asking for that data here -- not to say, I'm awesome or everyone cheated. Well, Thomas is asking you because he wants to push his bizarre agenda that the motos are helping every leading athlete escape the chase; the rest of us are asking because we value data and what it teaches us about the sport and the athletes who are at the top of it. If you have time to come on here and post -- which is great, by the way, and really nice for those of us who are slow and trying to become less so -- then you have time to share a single link should you want to further connect with those slow hacks who are the same people indirectly funding your and Ashley's Felt sponsorship. Unless you don't want to, in which case you can simply tell us that you don't want to, and maybe even note why, when we ask. That's just simple respect and genuineness towards those who respect you as an athlete.

Okay I've found some motivation and dug for some files. Let's have a look, hopefully the resolution on the files is readable. Basically, I'm 64kg most of the season, am 172cm or 5'8" and skinny, no hips, no shoulders. I cut through the wind like a knife. I have arguably one of the fastest setups in triathlon. Felt IA, Zipp 808 NSW & Super 9, both carbon clinchers, GP4000sII tyres with latex tubes. I use Quarq power, which I believe is the most reliable power index.

Dubai, 2nd place, January 28, fresh at the strart of the season


CdA, 2nd place, 26th June, coming into good shape


Calgary, July 24, 1st, course record, coming off altitude block & feeling great pre-worlds


Xiamen, November 13, 1st, running on fumes as I've been racing since Dubai in Jan, literally no conditioning left. Already stated there was a massive slingshot effect advantage on lap 2 passing the sold out field of AG'ers. Big taper off power as the effort, heat & air took it's toll.

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http://www.josh-amberger.com/

Outstanding...much appreciated.

I'm calling Thomas Gerlach a hack, because I know his agenda. I know why he wants my data because I know he's not asking for it to compliment me as perhaps Dev has. So sorry for the tone of my message, but it was a response to him, and not to those who want my data for genuine reasons.

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http://www.josh-amberger.com/

Will post higher res pictures if needed, I just went with the 'message board' option. Need to run now, got a ton of stuff to do

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http://www.josh-amberger.com/

I appreciate the opportuinty to come on here and talk about performance, in particular my own. I post quite a lot on the Australia 'Transitions' forum and quite often do a lot of spontaneous Q&A. I guess I go on Transitions mostly because I don't get prodded in the way I have been here, but I appreciate the different types of interest, and I most certainly am able to distinguish between the genuine and non-genuine. So I'm sorry for the frustrated response to Thomas before, I am more than happy to supply answers, and I'll get around to more of them soon. There was a swimming question that I will muscle in on too.

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http://www.josh-amberger.com/

I can assure you, you don't know my agenda. But if you really want to get into, again, fine. Why is that you don't post the WC 70.3 file? That is the one I am most interested in anyway.

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You do realize that technically slingshot is illegal correct? Just looking at Calgary, you do realize that Steve Mantell is like 5 feet 6 and maybe even shorter, and put out 267/273 and yet only went 2:04 mid. Do you have any idea how many extra watts it takes to go from a 2:04 mid => 158 high?

Steve Mantell: https://www.strava.com/activities/652494521 (267/273) (2:04:39)
Nathan Killam: https://www.strava.com/activities/652288125 (278/283) (2:07:09)

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Bro. It has been well established what your agenda is here -- out of your own mouth. You started the thread on Frodo drafting in Roth two goddamn weeks before the race even happened. It's old and it's tired and we get it and everyone agrees and Thomas Gerlach of all people isn't going to win hearts and minds by poor attempts at underhanded manipulation.

It's patently obvious you have an alternative agenda on almost every other topic. Usually you want to browbeat providers or companies into sponsoring you, and presumably your criticisms are directed at those who have no interest in doing so -- from the A2 guys to Ventum. But in this case it's in throwing shade around an athlete who is just flat out faster and more talented than you. Stop.

Jeff.

A few comments:

#1) I have benefited from wind doping. Yes, I know it is rare for a pro to actually come and say it, I have benefited!!! I know the benefits exist and this isn't the first time I have talked about it on the forum

#2) Do you really think we can't get a enough data to start making conclusions? I mean heck, we could have WTC wind tunnel test every top-tier athlete at the start of the season and then make athletes ride with power, estimate ride time based on power, and then compare to actual times.

On the tangent, have you investigated how much time I lost to you on the turns.

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It would be nice if you didn't ruin this thread for everyone that is actually interested in what Josh has to say and his data.


..

Ok, I will bow out of the thread. I apologize.

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I told dogmile I would bow of this thread. I don't want to make this thread about me personally. I will give up the fight. I am not prepared to make this fight today.

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Thomas, in defence, of Josh, if he is lapping age groupers on loop 2, how can he possibly "not slingshot" in the sense that he and every pro lapping age groupers will get a benefit passing guys. Every age grouper riding a clean race who happens to start in a late wave gets that effect. I think if you look at his Xiamen file and just focus on first half data, you can see what watts were needed to go how fast when he was not passing anyone.

I promised I would bow out of this thread and I don't want to overstay my welcome.

I will say this briefly, I don't know if Josh and I have a different interpretation of the rules. Slip-streaming is strictly forbidden in the pro ranks. We have to pull left before we enter the draft zone of the person a head of us. Now yes, on lap courses, pros seem to always ride faster on the same watts, because all the age-groupers break a lot of wind, but we aren't supposed to ride up to the wheel and then move left to pass. We are supposed to move left well before hand. If we were allowed to do that we would go even faster IMO.

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OK, thanks for the clarification and we are in agreement. I assume he meant he was doing that you guys are supposed to do. But even when you do that, and you are riding 45 kph and the age grouper is riding 30-40 kph, there is a massive wake behind them especially if there are a few. I'd imagine that Josh would have had one of Jimmy's zebra guys right on him the entire time too.

IME, the officials follow usually the first pack of guys. So if Josh if off the front, I would suspect it would be just Josh. I would suspect the officials were with Justin, Tim, Stuart etc. Now, I know at least as some NA races they said this year they were more into roaming than years past. That did seem to be the case from my experience. Maybe Josh can clarify specifics for this particular race.

Lastly, I will say that the official moto plays a role in group dynamics. As the moto usually hangs around 1-2 of the group and to the left. As a guy make his way to the front of the group he will often find himself in the wake of the moto for a bit as he moves to the front. In addition, a lot of courses are pretty tight. I can think of Raleigh and Chattanooga being two this year like this, where you have oncoming vehicle traffic on tight roads at fast speeds. You think about that situation, and the moto doesn't want to hang too far out in the direction of oncoming traffic so they might tuck in. In that situation, you can benefit twice as a rider, once because you catch a bitch of draft, but also the moto, blocks "the wake" of the oncoming car.

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I heard that Josh also was drafting the lead kayak in the swim. Makes sense, because there's no way someone his size can swim that fast.

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Alex Arman

Strava

I will est zero on the turns. I don't go crazy on turns. in tt's my u-turns are amazingly slow

you are going to have to account for everyone's variability in CdA at yaw given the yaws experienced on course as well. a lot of stuff to try an tease out. going to be a WAG

Let me tell you the situation in Xiamen and you decide what is the lesser of two evils in regard to slingshotting.

There was two lanes for athletes on either side of the out and back course, for both two laps. I wouldn't go as far as saying the course was congested, it definitely wasn't. It was however a sold out field.

Consider now that I had a live TV camera bike that rode NEXT to or BEHIND me for all 2:03 minutes of the bike split. He is as far left as possible, almost in the gutter. Not unlike 70.3 Worlds, where it should have been clear on the coverage that when I was in the lead, it was riding at least 2-3m right of me (other side of the road in Oz). These TV guys in Xiamen had a huge amount of experience and conduct coverage for every professional cycling race and marathon in China. Now also know that the chase group of 4 had a bike with them the whole way as well.

So on the first lap, this was not a problem, because I had a huge amount of rode to keep right on. The first lap there was also a lead car, at least 300-400m ahead the whole way from my interpretation. This was driven by an Ironman staffer from the US. For the second lap, the lead car turned into a lead bike (because of less space on the road), and was manned by another Ironman staffer who sat watching my every move with his eagle eyes and torso turned towards me. This lead moto was essential because even though I knew the course, the lead moto keeps note of where the front of the race is, which is essential on a multi-lap course, and it also acts as a sweeper to the many hundreds of new and perhaps unaware Chinese triathletes riding anywhere they please on the road.

So what am I to do? Ride to the left and take a potential advantage from the TV motorbike, even though I would still be beside it, not behind it, all the while having the Ironman staffer watching me and risking my reputation? Or keep right and ride around athletes as I needed to.

Also consider that every one of my competitors behind would have been doing the same thing if they were not being blocked by a TV moto as I was.

I'm interested to hear from Brad how he approached this Xiamen. We quite often have 2 laps courses in Australia so I'm quite used to it, and I can pull up probably another 4 races I've won under the same circumstances, which show the same departure of power, but still the similar velocity on the 2nd lap.

I would be looking out for your reply Thomas but you're not going to write back, because you've already said numerous times that you're not going to involve yourself anymore. I feel embarassed that I took your bait, and I'm really sorry to everyone for the hostile attitude. I'd just stepped off a 11 hour redeye with no sleep.

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http://www.josh-amberger.com/

I'm probably only good enough for 17-17:30 minutes in the pool for 1,500m, if even that at all. At least, I haven't done time trials in the pool for a long long time.

I did my first IM this year in Port Macquarie (IMOZ) and swam 43 minutes. It was a wetsuit swim. I swam well but definitely not this well, so it would be easy to assume that the course was short. I think in general wearing a wetsuit for me will add maybe 30-45 seconds for a 70.3 swim, so I think even with a wetsuit the course was still short.

I'm a fast swimmer but a weaker runner. This is less advantageous than being a good swimmer but a stronger runner. Pack swimming make a huge difference to the outcomes in pro races. For instance, I swam 2 minutes into Tim Don on Sunday in Xiamen, but only 50 seconds into him at 70.3 Worlds. He led the chase pack around in the swim at Xiamen, but was able to sit in the pack at Worlds. It's never going to be a fair comparison because there was a strong current in Xiamen which would of had some impact, but it still goes to show that it's better to have a stronger run than a stronger swim in pro racing at the moment. It's just one needs to make the front pack, they don't particularly need to be any faster.

Sometimes I look at my competitors in the pool and wonder how they swim so well in races. SOmetimes, people are just are able to stubbornly hold on!

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http://www.josh-amberger.com/

Let me just say this. We all know there's varience in power meters. If you looked at my files from a few wins I had in 2014 (you can search my blog for Port Mac, Shepparton and Western Sydney), you'd see all my files are reading closer to 300np. Now they are all around 280w. The difference? I still ride Quarq, but it was a new Quarq for the 2015 season, which I'm still using now in 2016.

It caused a bit of frustration in my training at first, I would be riding wondering how I got so weak all of a suddern, but then it made sense that it was simply a variance between an older Quarq and a newer Quarq, and I've had to adapt to the new readings of this power meter.

I can show power files of some of the sessions I was doing before Calgary 70.3 if you want further proof of my effort. But really, maybe you should just ask some of our other peers as to my character on the race course. To me it sounds like you've just got a case of the old analysis paralysis.

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http://www.josh-amberger.com/

Haha. Actually this is something that is really annoying, when a kayaker is not far enough ahead, and you get the slaps of water agaisnt you as they paddle along, actually pushing you back, not pulling you forward!

I could go on about lead kayakers. The lead kayaker at 70.3 Worlds this year did not know the course. 100m into the race, I had already broken clear after probably swimming sub 60 seconds, and he's there pushing me hard right to go around the sighting buouy. I had to push myself over his kayak to get back on th stright line to the turning buouy. I've also had kayakers and boats just run over me Alcatraz, obvoiusly being scared I was cutting too fine of a line to the swim exit in the bay currents.

You never really know what you're going to get in a swim. One year at St. Anthony's I had a huge manitee swim under me and it's flipper brushed my stomach!!!

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http://www.josh-amberger.com/

Okay here we go, I dug the file from 70.3 Worlds. First time I've looked at it, as initially I just didn't want to revisit it.

Here is my first 30 minutes, the 30 minutes I spent at the front of the race after leading out of the waterby 45 seconds. 294NP. Well above my threshold, there's no way I would of held this. Average speed of 44.5km/h.




Here's where the pack or 25 guys caught me, you can see the immediate drop once I am caught. Power drops down to 267np until the short steep climb




And the overall power number. Edit: If you can't read it's 281np. Seems to be my season mark, pack or no pack.

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http://www.josh-amberger.com/

Congratulations on your win!

Thanks for sharing your experiences racing in China. I know many of us are curious how it would be.

I wonder how easy it is for Chinese folks to train do to the pollution, crazy roads with bad drivers and so much congestion, and not many swimming pools. I visited China quite a few times between 1995-2003 and found most Chinese didn't know how to swim.

Enjoy your off season!

Thank you for your contribution. You seem like a dead set good bloke.

For an Aussie ;-)

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I ride:
Cervelo - P-Series/R3
GT - Sensor Carbon Expert

Supporters - Flo Cycling, Mount Bikes

nothing wrong with us aussies sheep boy ;)

I enjoyed watching josh out the front at worlds hammer along. Great position, looked very aero, commentators kept going on about how he kept looking down and how their are dangers if there is something out of your line of sight. Pfffft.....commentators!

Thanks for the words. You obviously must have been taking a piss when I had my head down and hit the pothole??? Swerved to the other side of the road, almost hit the camera bike!

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http://www.josh-amberger.com/

haha didn't see that bit nope...must have been what they were going on about though

Congratulations on your great win and for coming on here commenting on it. I also thought your 70.3 WC performance was gutsy, and made for great racing even though I imagine you would've hoped for an even higher placing (allthough - 12th in 70.3 WC isn't all bad hey?).

As an aside - or in this thread not-so-much-aside - the discussions on power-numers and analasys-paralysis kinda peaks my interest (probably a side-effect of an office job! ;p). Sorry if I'm beating a dead-horse, but here it goes:

First its seems (atleast to me) that the discussion previously in the thread mixes toghether (i) the athletes integrity/willingness to abide strictly by the rules, and (ii) the more objective question on what factors other than the athletes watts that affect the outcome of the race. In my opinion there is no reason to question Josh's (or any other athlete for that sake) integrity just because there can be found an anomaly in speed vs power. This just goes to prove that there were outside factors affecting speed (which will always be the case, unless we move the races to a velodrome doing ITT-starts..). Sure, it's critical that all racers (especially pros) abide by the rules, but my opinion is that this asessment needs to be made on the course by the refs, not by someone else in hindsight, analysing power-files.

Second, what interests me in this discussion, is what factors affect races. F.ex in this instance (Josh's win in Ximen), it seems obvous that some factors in the race (other racers on road, vehicles/motos, etc) lead to the second lap being "faster" on the same watts (or, in this case, equally fast on less watts). Again - and I emphasize this - I am not arguing this is Josh or anyones "fault". For the sake of this argument, its just a question of establishing that something - be it the wind, congestion on course, or something else - changed. This will most certainly always be the case, and its not really interesting in itself. I think the interesting part is a) what factors can we ("we" being mostly the race-organizer) control, and b) what factors alter the dynamics and/or outcome of the race? This last part (b) is probably the most interesting, as factors that affect some athletes more or less than others, should be subject to more scrutiny than others. Especially if those factors are among those we can control (a).

To take the 70.3 WC file as an example: The file, coupled with Josh's commentary, seems to be a very direct illustration on the effects of "pack racing" in Ironman (pack-racing inside the rules, that is). Still, I guess the file does not give all the anwers, f.ex did the chase pack let up just a little bit when catching Josh and thereby enabling Josh to "hang on" to the group on considerably less watts than he needed to hold them off for 30 min? Still, I think this is one of the most intersting aspects, how the pack affects the race. Do you have a take on this Josh?

As things stand today, the rules being the rules, you have to live with a 12m draft-zone, and the benefits (for the chase-pack) and disadvantages (for the sole leader or people not making the chase pack) this lead to. Is this how we (you Pro's?) would like it to be? I would guess that being a strong swimmer, you would benefit from (and therefore approve of) a larger draft zone leading to less "pack cycling"- correct or wrong?

Another issue, that i guess is one of Thomas' main points, is how races control motos / vehicles? Again - withoug placing any blame on the athletes - it would be interesting to establish if this in any way benefits some athletes more than others. IMO this should be one of the easiest possible flaws to correct, but I would suspect that a lack of knowledge/"proof" of how large this effect is, leads to it getting less attention than it should. In my opinion this is on the race organizers, not the athletes, to correct, and races should be organized so that this is a non-issue. The winner /lead biker should not have to be subject to suspicion that he was aided by any lead vehicles, and the chasers should not have to worried that the leader is getting an unfair "tow". In my opinion it would be near impossible to "proove" any advtange / non-advantage of this just by analyzing power-files. There are so many other factors involved (power-meter discrepancy, wind/yaw, your aeroness the day in question, etc). It would be like trying to explain the US election-results by polling to random people why they voted the way the did... Instead, there should be established a set of rules for this also, and those rules should (naturally) be followed..

Thanks for posting about your race experience here, I've often looked at your race results, and now power files because I'm also 5'8 and 65 kg and find your races more relatable (can't relate to the swim lol). Gives me hope that you don't have to be 6'1 and 70kg to be good at this!

Thanks mate, cool to hear you get something out of my racing. To take your anaolgy further, guys like Tim Reed give me hope that I can still squeeze a bit more from myself as well. He's even smaller than me, and now a World Champion. Greg Welch is another example. Damn, he was so fast for such a little guy. Just keep pushing mate. When the going get's tough, the tough get going!

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http://www.josh-amberger.com/

Please, please, please...."would have" or if you must, "would've". There is no such term as "would of".

/pet peeve

Congrats on the win. Been to Xiamen a few times...great city. Glad you enjoyed it.

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Chicago Cubs - 2016 WORLD SERIES Champions!!!!

"If ever the time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin." - Samuel Adams

I am 5'6" 63 kilos.....you guys give us all hope...Riccitello, Welch, Bustos, Reed, Amberger, Guillaume. Keep it up. The crazy part is that your size the run should be the strongest, but you pull it off in the events that you have a bit of a disadvantage (well, unless you show up at Embrunman or IM France)

I'd rather have your Defender.

Your mother was a hamster and your father smelled of elderberries.....

I don't even know where to start because the amount of stuff (*edit* to clarify "stuff" as slingshot & moto comments) Thomas posted is garbage. Sorry TG, you are far off on your "agenda" in regards to the China races. I will just go bullet format as I am jet lagged, tired, and don't feel like writing in a "grown up" format of paragraphs.

- Hefei was 1 lap. I got to the "front" end of that race at roughly mile 22. From that point till mile 50 I had a TV motto with me. Riding to the left of me in the NEXT lane over, or TWO lanes over.
- Most of the Hefei course had 3-4 lanes, some sections had 2 lanes.
- Hefei was my 2nd best ride in regards to power for '16. 298AP/304NP: http://tpks.ws/a4YSe , 28secs faster than Dougal Allan / 7:50 faster than the "group".

- Xiamen was 2 laps as Josh stated. First lap clean, 2nd lap congested.
- I was in the chase chase "pack" with a few others. No motto the whole race, really no need we were so far out of it.
- The 2nd lap I took the approach of riding "safely". If there were riders to the left and the right was open, that is where I went. I went to where the "holes" were. I rode to where I felt safe and wouldn't get taken out. If there was 1 bike length open on the left but 1.5 LANES on the right, I went RIGHT. The rules are "black & white", but my safety trumps black and white.
- Josh having the lead moto and camera moto on the 2nd lap hopefully helped move guys over, but only he can comment on that.
- There were times that it was inevitable to "slingshot". What would you do TG, brake until the AG'er moved over so you could pass them?
- Having inexperienced athletes on a multiple loop course will ALWAYS make things tough. Having motos out there with the lead athletes / groups to hopefully move the AG'ers out of the way is the only real way of keeping it "clean".
- My not so great Xiamen power file: http://tpks.ws/H1AxR

For those wanting to compare data:
- My Dubai file, since Josh posted his, off the top of my head he put 2+mins into me in Dubai and I rode 292/300: http://tpks.ws/yPe9q

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-Brad Williams
Website | Twitter: @BW_Tri |Instagram: @BW_Tri | Strava | Co-Founder & Coach at: KIS Coaching
Partnered with: Zoot Sports | Precision Fuel &Hydration | ISM

Very interesting, thanks for responding. One other Q if you can: I assume you were a swimmer growing up, what was your best time for 1500 scm when you were a "pure swimmer", e.g. how much slower are you now due to all the cycling and running, with much less time in the water??? Also, how much do you swim each week now, maybe 20-25,000 m in 4-5 workouts per week???

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"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

Hey Brad,

I don't have much experience reading power files so I'm truly just curious....one thing that struck me was (what I perceive to be) a fairly large imbalance in L/R pedals for both races. Are those discrepancies normal for you?

Yes, that is pretty much where it is every ride.

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-Brad Williams
Website | Twitter: @BW_Tri |Instagram: @BW_Tri | Strava | Co-Founder & Coach at: KIS Coaching
Partnered with: Zoot Sports | Precision Fuel &Hydration | ISM

Thanks for sharing!

I guess it's not a bad rig aye.

instead of spending the day on Slowtwitch curating my image, I spent it packing for the camping trip! Loaded and ready to head off to Moreton Island.

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http://www.josh-amberger.com/

Thx 4 the tips. Your gud @ grammer!

Haha sorry.

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http://www.josh-amberger.com/

I haven't been a pure swimming since I was 14. I quit because I was too small to compete with the dudes hitting puberty much harder than me, so moved to triathlon. I don't really get faster or slower at swimming with less/more run or cycling volume. It's more that I just have to work hard in the pool for a few weeks and the fitness will come soon after. I think this year has been one of my best ever years for swimming though, so I might even be getting marginally better, though I'm not sure why. It could some some
minor technique refinements I've made. But I'm swimming no more than 3-4 times a week, 18-20k tops.

Sorry but no real interesting information here, I'm just lucky I'm talented at it!

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http://www.josh-amberger.com/

Needless to say, I wont be back on Slowtwitch for a while!

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http://www.josh-amberger.com/

Me too actually. It's kind of annoying, I try to not let it bother me. Don't know enough about to it to know if it's something that can/should be adddressed. Any advice for me here? A pertinent detail is that I have an 10mm anatomically short left leg. 3mm in the tibia, 7mm in the femur.

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http://www.josh-amberger.com/

Actually, the fact that one of the best tri swimmers quit swimming full-time at 14 is quite interesting in and of itself. You were going around 17:00 for 1500 scm but yet were not competitive with the elite Aussie swimmers like Thorpe and Hackett, so you switched to tri. For most of us, a 17:00 at 14 would be very fast but the real elites were prob going 15:XX by age 14 so you prob made the right choice switching to tri. Thanks again for the info!!!

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"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

5mm considered clinically significant AFAIK.

Most relevance would depend on if there's asymmetric hip drop occurring at BDC of pedal stroke, if not your body is compensating via knee extension and/or plantarflexion (on the short side). Whereas symetrical knee extension & plantarflexion but with greater hip drop (on short side) would likely have "lower/upper cross" implications on your upper body.

Regards,

David

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David T-D
http://www.tilburydavis.com