blah blah blah bikes blah blah ftp blah blah aero blah blah ironman

better?

blah blah blah bikes blah blah ftp blah blah aero blah blah ironman

better?

What time does trial coverage start tonight?

The trick to disguising a backdoor brag is not to put it in your first sentence. But I do give you credit, I think this is the first time I have seen the cover up for a backdoor brag to be, "I am going to act like a self-righteous turd."

okay, seriously, you've posted here just a few times what's your story.

Cry like a little biatch is where this one belongs. I missed my ride time because of this thread. I blame others and not myself.

Cry like a little biatch is where this one belongs. I missed my ride time because of this thread. I blame others and not myself.

The trick to disguising a backdoor brag is not to put it in your first sentence. But I do give you credit, I think this is the first time I have seen the cover up for a backdoor brag to be, "I am going to act like a self-righteous turd."

okay, seriously, you've posted here just a few times what's your story.

It's not a backdoor brag. It was more of a "holy than thow, I have a right to speak on the matter". I didn't post any times or anything like that. I certainly don't mind bragging, but didn't feel it appropriate in the context of the post. I totally agree there should be a substantial smattering of swimming stuff in a triathlon forum, duh! But post after post of trials related mumble jumble, cmon. Thats for swim swam and the other forums. I don't want to have to dig and dig for stuff about triathlon. Basically missed the info yesterday about the Oceanside change b/c the swimming garbage.

No no, he's absolutely correct. The sole purpose of this forum is to serve Desertfox's needs and desires. I've been a bad person, from now on I'll be sure to vet all of my posts through him to make sure the content and paragraph structure is acceptable.

Wait, are you doubling down on the self-righteous turd act because again to cover up the backdoor brag? It didn't work the first time, playing it again is just, no offense, a little obvious.

Careful, you keep using the self-righteous turd card and we might actually think you are one....

We cant be friends anymore because you're so bad. I am glad you are getting help.

Sine this has gone so sideways, would it hurt to triple down.

Triathlon= swim, bike, run.
Olympic trials= swim.

As they both have swimming in common, I don't see a problem.

Now you ask why nobody is starting threads on Jessie Thomas etc. If you do, or actually if anyone does, and it's a topic or question that interests me, I will happily join the conversation.

I think another thing is the admin here. This is such a great forum, in ease of use, great moderators, and for being a forum, I don't feel like i'm stuck in the 90's. I haven't been to the other swim forums, but I know that this forum is great.

You are the primary offender. Jesus Christ dude, don't you have a life? Paragraphs do exist, IF I WERE WRITING A BOOK. It's a forum moron. Seriously go glom on to a swimming forum. People should care about swimming tips from a dude from Halifax about as much as they should care about budgeting tips from your congressman.

The trick to disguising a backdoor brag is not to put it in your first sentence. But I do give you credit, I think this is the first time I have seen the cover up for a backdoor brag to be, "I am going to act like a self-righteous turd."

okay, seriously, you've posted here just a few times what's your story.

What time does trial coverage start tonight?

It was more of a "holy than thow,

That is more like it. Alright, you are chomping at the bit, out with it. 500/1650 times:

I hope from this point forward this thread will solely be devoted to talking about the trials.

100 free prelims are on.

I'm really hoping Greeeevers makes it on the 4x1 relay. He was pretty quick in the 100 back yesterday, but not quite quick enough.

Just to throw this even more sideways, Track and Field Olympic Trials start in just a few days.
Can we start a bunch of threads about that?

The trick to disguising a backdoor brag is not to put it in your first sentence. But I do give you credit, I think this is the first time I have seen the cover up for a backdoor brag to be, "I am going to act like a self-righteous turd."

okay, seriously, you've posted here just a few times what's your story.

Just to throw this even more sideways, Track and Field Olympic Trials start in just a few days.
Can we start a bunch of threads about that?

It's not a backdoor brag. It was more of a "holy than thow, I have a right to speak on the matter". I didn't post any times or anything like that. I certainly don't mind bragging, but didn't feel it appropriate in the context of the post. I totally agree there should be a substantial smattering of swimming stuff in a triathlon forum, duh! But post after post of trials related mumble jumble, cmon. Thats for swim swam and the other forums. I don't want to have to dig and dig for stuff about triathlon. Basically missed the info yesterday about the Oceanside change b/c the swimming garbage.

blah blah blah bikes blah blah ftp blah blah aero blah blah ironman

better?

Wait, are you doubling down on the self-righteous turd act again to cover up the backdoor brag? It didn't work the first time, playing it again is just, no offense, a little obvious.

Careful, you keep using the self-righteous turd card and we might actually think you are one....

To the OP:

I've checked out swimming forums, quite a few of them, on the exact premise you propose, in that "the best swimmers should be on swimming forums, so you'll get the best advice there."

The reality though:

- Most swimming forums are almost entirely frequented by competitive swimmers. Meaning that these folks have been RACING swimming for years, if not since childhood, and very seriously as a single sport. This almost always means as well that these same folks are (very) naturally gifted at swimming or else they'd have quit long ago, even if they're not just 'joe-average' on their competitive swim team.

Let this be a less to everyone: if you post something stupid but someone is kind enough to give you a door out...TAKE IT.

PS: you leave the thread and change you handle NEXT week.

To the OP:

I've checked out swimming forums, quite a few of them, on the exact premise you propose, in that "the best swimmers should be on swimming forums, so you'll get the best advice there."

The reality though:

- Most swimming forums are almost entirely frequented by competitive swimmers. Meaning that these folks have been RACING swimming for years, if not since childhood, and very seriously as a single sport. This almost always means as well that these same folks are (very) naturally gifted at swimming or else they'd have quit long ago, even if they're not just 'joe-average' on their competitive swim team.

- When you ask a group of very gifted athletes for advice on basics, you often get the WORST advice, despite these gifted folks meaning well.

They'll say stuff like "if you're not swimming sub 1:20/100m for distance, it's all a technique problem for you, forget about effort, fix your technique', which is a load of crap for the non-gifted triathlete swimmer. They'll also attribute almost all their swim speed to "I worked so hard, which is the ONLY reason I'm so great at swimming", and/or "I refined my technique so will, which is the ONLY reason I swim 1:00/100 and you swim 1:45/100" - both of which are patently false.

The MAIN reason they're fast (like collegiate fast), first and foremost is their genetic advantage. After that, sure, hard work and technique count, but those factors will never make a average AG triathlete a D1 swimmer, no matter how hard they try. These gifted swimmers would have been FFOP triathlon swimmers with zero coaching, minimal training, even without their swim background, once they started training, thanks to their natural gifts, which they will NEVER acknowledge. Even D1 swimmers here routinely say they have no swim talent.

If you want to see this in force in running, just go to letsrun.com and watch the advice of these gifted 15-16 min 5k runners to 24+ min 5k runners - they'll say "I run 15 min 5ks on <20mpw, so at the LEAST, you should be able to run a 17-18 on <20mpw - you're just training all wrong or too wimpy to push it hard enough." Yeah, right.

- I actually am pretty sure that in terms of swimming forums, unless you're a gifted (collegiate swimmers are gifted in my book!) swimmer, triathlon swim forums give your best bet for getting practical advice for a real joe-average ability swimmer trying to improve.

Does it take talent or a "natural gift" to show up to the pool and work hard everyday? Twice a day? For years? It does not.

[..]

You are kidding yourself and taking away from the accomplishments of others if you think that greatness is born.

Does it take talent or a "natural gift" to show up to the pool and work hard everyday? Twice a day? For years? It does not.

[..]

You are kidding yourself and taking away from the accomplishments of others if you think that greatness is born.

Are there differences? Sure.

Is that the MAIN difference between a D1 swimmer and average joe lap swimmer? No.

It may be a small one, but that was the point I was arguing. Carry on

Actually, it IS the main difference.

The average joe swimmer doesn't have the desire or ability to even take on that kind of commitment to swimming. Largely because it's pretty clear they won't be that great at it.

But even if you force them to bust their tail and do all those workouts, they won't even be close to a D1 swimmer.

This is more clear in running, where you can't just blame technique on someone's lack of speed. There are plenty of 16-18 year olds who run 15:xx 5ks on under 30mpw of training, and often have been running for less than a few years. Yet there are MILLIONS of kids, who do the same or more training, and can't even break 20 (or even 22).

It's not going to be the same exact ability curve, but you're fooling yourself to think that swimming doesn't have such a differential between the talented and nontalented. For sure, you're not going to have joe-average swimmer pulling within 5sec/100 of the gifted D1-swimmer by doing equal training. In fact, it'll likely be a 20sec/100 or more gap at all speeds in the pool.

Actually, it IS the main difference.

The average joe swimmer doesn't have the desire or ability to even take on that kind of commitment to swimming. Largely because it's pretty clear they won't be that great at it.

But even if you force them to bust their tail and do all those workouts, they won't even be close to a D1 swimmer.

This is more clear in running, where you can't just blame technique on someone's lack of speed. There are plenty of 16-18 year olds who run 15:xx 5ks on under 30mpw of training, and often have been running for less than a few years. Yet there are MILLIONS of kids, who do the same or more training, and can't even break 20 (or even 22).

It's not going to be the same exact ability curve, but you're fooling yourself to think that swimming doesn't have such a differential between the talented and nontalented. For sure, you're not going to have joe-average swimmer pulling within 5sec/100 of the gifted D1-swimmer by doing equal training. In fact, it'll likely be a 20sec/100 or more gap at all speeds in the pool.

I'm with lightheir. Take a group of people and give them identical training, the results will vary enormously. This is especially clear when you watch novice programs.

Most athletes don't see this because the people they train with have already been filtered and left with those of roughly similar talent. So the big differences they see between them and their peers every day are much more due to training. Its really easy to forget the other 99% of the population who could never run a 20min 5k no matter how much training they did.

When you ask a group of very gifted athletes for advice on basics, you often get the WORST advice, despite these gifted folks meaning well.

davros wrote:

Lightheir wrote:

When you ask a group of very gifted athletes for advice on basics, you often get the WORST advice, despite these gifted folks meaning well.

I agree with that.

ajthomas wrote:

Examples? I don't agree though maybe there is more to it.

I have heard less talented athletes say "I need to get my swim mechanics down so I don't ingrain bad technique before I crank up the kilometerage." The talented ones say the opposite. This may or may not be your example, but if it is...you are wrong.

Just google "swimming is all technique", and you'll get gobs of hits from coaches, swimmers, and others saying exactly that. You also can't deny how many people on this forum and other forums conclude "swimming is all technique" - we've all heard that one many, many, times.

This is one of the top blog hits on that google search and just one of many.




http://www.teamathleticmentors.com/2015/01/23/off-season-training-tips-from-a-pro/


Off Season Training Tips from a ProJanuary 23rd, 2015 by Team OAM NOW / Athletic Mentors
By Raquel Tavares-Torres, Team OAM Now Professional Tri-athlete

"Swimming is all technique; winter is, therefore, the perfect time to work on your stroke and technique to improve both swimming speed and efficiency. "

The thing people don't get about swim technique is that it is not enough to LOOK like a real swimmer stroke wise, you have to APPLY FORCE like a real swimmer.

A couple of friends of mine swam for a small D3 school with a good swimming program and the football players were razzing them about "how easy" swimming is. So, they invited the whole football team to come to a swim practice one fall afternoon. Not a single footballer was able to even finish the warm-up, let alone the whole practice. No more razzing after that. :)

I agree with this. IMO, fitness and feel are the most critical aspects here. There are lots of swimmers with technically good strokes but no speed and lots of swimmers who look like a mess (think Janet Evans) but are pretty friggen fast.

Feel is really, really tough to develop as an adult onset swimmer. As someone who started swimming competitively at age 6, I have good feel but it'as impossible to explain. Fitness is relatively easy to develop, but I've noticed lots of triathletes rarely put in the work in the pool that a serious racing swimmer will. Basically, swimming is just hard. Taking myself as an example, I put thousands of KMs over two-a-day training blocks, went to month long swimming camps every summer, completed many video sessions with experts etc into developing my swimming. This took a couple of decades. New swimmers can't expect to be good after a couple years of twice a week ~2KM sessions.

I will admit that as a former competitive swimmer, as an adult I enjoy privately lording my swimming prowess over adult onset swimmers. I got no respect in junior high for making the high school varsity, a fact that annoyed me to no end. I got little respect for being a high school all-American even though I worked my ass off for that goal. Basketball players and football players see swimmers as a bunch of weirdos, not "jocks". Now when I see formerly good athletes in non-swimming sports struggle in the pool as they try to get into tri, it's hard to prevent a "yeah, it's not so easy is it!" grin from creeping on to my face.

I'm with lightheir. Take a group of people and give them identical training, the results will vary enormously. This is especially clear when you watch novice programs.

Most athletes don't see this because the people they train with have already been filtered and left with those of roughly similar talent. So the big differences they see between them and their peers every day are much more due to training. Its really easy to forget the other 99% of the population who could never run a 20min 5k no matter how much training they did.

+1000