I have found finding a swim coach either privately or through a Masters class is equally important to having goggle while swimming.
A coach can point out bad habits and recommend proper swim strokes to help you swim more efficiently in the water.

---

You can't buy happiness but you can buy a bike and that's pretty close.

------__o
----_`\<,_
---(_)/ (_)

I never swam a kid, but I was a diver. An injury in college forced me to stop diving.
My coach knew I would be walking on without knowing how to do a flipturn.
I did Total Immersion the summer before junior year (20), and thenI walked on (d3) as a junior.

I swam a lot. I was a college swimmer, averaging 30k a week at the beginning of the season and as much as 70k a week during training trip. That was when I was fastest.


A few years ago, for my "off-season" i decided to be a swimmer again. I started swimming ~30k yards per week again, and saw most of my times get very close to my old college times once again.

For me, to go really fast, I need a lot of volume.

Greg, I know everyone's stroke is different but I'd find it interesting if you could detail some of the flaws/remedies that allowed you to improve.

Joel

- No swim experience at all prior to age ~25. (2008).
- Could barely swim 25 yards at a time, had to get out early from the slowest lane of my first masters classes because I couldn't do the drills
- Current 100 yard (from a push) PR is ~:55. 500 (push) is ~5:40, 2000 yard is ~24:00.

What did this? A good sense of body awareness I suppose. Being somewhat predisposed to being a good swimmer, somehow. I think the other big thing was a willingness to put in a lot of work (for a triathlete) in the pool for ~3 years. Most people would probably solve a lot of their technique issues by putting in a lot of (the right) work and their body would sort of "figure it out" to a degree.

I started swim training at age 26, but I was never that slowly that I can recall. I think I did a 2:14 scy the second year, and 1:53 the sixth year. Within six years I did a 5:17 500scy.

Keys:

1. Very good proprioception. Coach says "you are doing this, you want to do that, change by doing this". Done. (that's why I never swam that slowly)
2. Small masters group with a very good on-deck coach who gave personalized feedback.
3. Read every article, watched every video tape (the real tape back in the 80s) I could find on technique.
4. Joined a group of beer-drinking ex-college swimmers and swam sets I had no business trying. Swam as hard as I could for as long as I could, sat out a 50, then got back in. Got yelled at a lot.
5. Treated every stroke as practice. Got to the point where if I do something wrong, I know it and fix it the next stroke.

---

----------------------------------
"Go yell at an M&M"

Dang, where do I begin? Well, I changed:
- arm recovery
- arm entry
- arm extension
- early vertical forearm
- pull sweep under my body
- final extension of pull
- shoulder roll
- shoulder extension
- head position
- stroke timing
- leg position

---

Advanced Aero TopTube Storage for Road, Gravel, & Tri...ZeroSlip & Direct-mount, made in the USA.
DarkSpeedWorks.com.....Reviews.....Insta.....Facebook
--

Some great tips. The ones that I bolded show that you were also a highly motivated swimmer and student.

And that is also a critical ingredient to AOS success.

---

Advanced Aero TopTube Storage for Road, Gravel, & Tri...ZeroSlip & Direct-mount, made in the USA.
DarkSpeedWorks.com.....Reviews.....Insta.....Facebook
--

as a athlete, i started at around 2min by 100 METERS ...i was around 18-19 years old and never been part of a program.

about 10 years later of swimming 5-9 times a week and doing a lot of different swim focus with lots of different world class coach, i was down to 1:10-15 /100 meters so in the 1:05 range in yards. i was able to make front pack at any world class races in the pro field.

TIME.....nothing will take the place of time in the water or like a good friend of mine says, ''a overnight success takes 10 years''......


As a coach, i have work with countless adult onset swimmers and professional triathletes. I been able to change some of them to very good as long as the commitment was there. And commitment mean you will need to embrace the journey and do some brutal swim focus to make it happen.

My experience show me very few are truly ready/able to get the work done to reach there goals.

---

Jonathan Caron / Professional Coach / ironman champions / age group world champions
Jonnyo Coaching
Instargram

That sounds remarkably like what successful swimmers who started out as kids did.

I dunno, I don't really see being an AOS as this major crutch or disadvantage. The basics are the same. Get good coaching, listen to your coach, and swim lots, pushing your limits.

The main difference, IMO between kids and adults is that kids have a built-in reinforcement mechanism in that they are growing and getting bigger and stronger each year. Adults, generally speaking, aren't, so it can be more discouraging when improvement doesn't come as rapidly as you might want. Kids also have more time to spend swimming. If an adult could put in the volume and intensity that your typical club team puts in, then they would also see massive improvements. However, adults generally don't have time for that, so we have to be content with more modest improvements.

In my case, my first ever 100m free was a 1:11.7 when I was 14, and I was under 1:00 by the time I was 16. at 18 I was around :55 then peaked at ages 19-21 (53 mid). But prior to starting competitive swimming as a 14 year old, I had swum a LOT, just farting around in the ocean every summer, bodysurfing, snorkelling, etc....

---

Swimming Workout of the Day:

Favourite Swim Sets:

2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly

I started swimming in 2010 (18 y.o.) after I joined the UMich triathlon team and I could barely make it to the other side of the pool. Within 2 years I was down to 22's for 1500m and now I'm hoping for an 18:xx 1650yd in a couple weeks.

Almost all of my technique improvements came from watching swim videos & imitating what I saw. I didn't receive coaching or significant advice on my stroke until the past couple years. My improvements in speed almost always came in tandem with an increase in swim volume and intensity. It seems like the more I force myself to hold a fast pace, the better my stroke becomes naturally. Tips from my master's coach have definitely been valuable, but getting a feel for the water and learning to catch and pull water well came mostly from repetition and hard work (& good examples). I have good proprioception and a solid VO2 max so that has definitely played a big role here.

Holy Freaking Jealous.

---

@floathammerholdon | @partners_in_tri

In contrast to Greg, I think #4 is the most important piece: you jumped in and tried to keep up with some really fast swimmers and it upped your game. I did similar thing in my 20s also except i had swum in HS and 1 yr at D3 college, but never with ex-D1 swimmers like i found, just by chance, to be swimming at the downtown YMCA just a 5-min walk from my first real job at age 23. I improved my times a good bit just by trying to keep up with a 20-sec 50 free-er, a 16-min 1650 guy, and a few others. Great experience:)

---

"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

Thais is what i've always thought, and i think the guys/girls who have a hard time with swimming as adults prob would have had just as hard a time as kids. As for myself, one of my early instructors, when i was 4 yrs old or thereabouts, said he didn't think i'd ever learn to swim, but eventually it just clicked. I think possibly the biggest thing was that i just loved being in the water, espec in the South Carolina summers when the heat and humidity are pretty intense. And even now, i still like being in the water more than being on dry land:)

---

"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

"And I can say this with certainty: I could not have gotten faster without fixing my technique flaws. Because I swam lots and lots of yards with crappy technique and I only got only a little faster. But when my technique was fixed with some one-on-one input, holy toledo, things really changed. Because, immediately after that, I got hugely faster with no increase in yards."

I wish every triathlete on this board would listen & follow this advice.

Let me reverse that, or sort in priority sequence:

- Body and leg position
- some basic fitness testing too
- 6B kick work leading into
- stroke timing drills (see my video)
- head position - yeah for sure, it's a biggie because we are all wired to want not to drown.
- shoulder mobility and extension -- yup gotta have this. Again can be tested for.

- Video record & split screening with a stroke you might be suited for (e.g shorter or tall person). Above and below water analysis. Great way to track progress too, like an archive.

- final thing to work on, is the arm baloney. Lot easier on the arms in general, if you work from the feet up.

Most if not all people want to start from the hands back. I don't know of any swim programs that actually do that tho. Our TSUN club is kick-fest.

If you are talking 1min on 100M you are going to need very good flip turns and dolphins. I can hang with our club swimmers through the lane but lose a good meter or two in and out of the wall. In fact I was working 1/2 hour on turns today. Nice to have, but OWS obviously not required.

At the 50M (today) there are scores of swimmers with the funkiest, like craziest strokes you've ever seen. You'd think a little time invested in a video session here or there they could be on their way to fixing some of basics up at least.

---

Training Tweets: https://twitter.com/Jagersport_com
FM Sports: http://fluidmotionsports.com

  when I started "swimming" I was 25 min for 1000 meter and decided iam going to get sub 15 for 1000meter. I would swim 5 times a week a short warm up and then a 1000m tt ( sometimes I would stop a tt after 600 or s meter but usually i would finish. it took me 2.5 year to break 15min. pretty much swimmng all the time solo and never having seen a coach and neither looking around much. I would halrdly swim more than 2 k sessions I had no idea what i was doing but i knew what i wanted to do .
only after i had broken 15 min I joined the first swim session.
I guess the biggest show stopper to get better in swimming- while I guess iam in the top 2 % of amateur tri swimmer Iam still at a bad level, was when i realiced that I gain nothing by swimming faster .the 2nd show stopper was when i was given a total immersion book after i broke 15 min for 1000m ( fortunatley i disregared that very quickkly -despite getting one or two things out of it- when i got slower doing the stuff and i knew intristically swimming has to hurt) but my first swim drill I did when i was 14.30 for 1000 meter. At the same time form a coaching perspective I dont think doing drills without somebody correcting you does very much.
My technique ( the little that i had) in my 1000 m tts would cosntantly break down but overall there was a trend that it would break down later and later and i kept puhing the boundary.

From a coaching point I would agree most AOS dont really want it. And of course not everybody that wants it can do it or has the time to do it .At the same time i have seen many shockingly bad swimmers that are natural sinkers with 0 cordination to get sub 30 for the half with realy hard work.
I get really mad when i see people doing just drills but never pushing themselves, and when i see top runners and cyclists fluffing around in the pool wondering why they cant break 30 min for a half.

Technique is important and I certainly limited my swim ability but not doing anything in the first 2.5 years , but most people do technique work that might make them look good when they do the drills but often it dosnt make them swim faster becasue when they swim they they dont think about what they need to do .
Swimming just bloody hurts but also the pain goes away very quickly. at the same time even as a decent swimmer you can never stop to think and have to be present during the session ( not all the time but always need to check what you are doing )
people that plateou need to do shorter and faster stuff not just going up and down the pool.

even at elite tri level level there is many swim coaches that call themselveves strenght and conditioning coaches. and i have seem quite a few elite atheltes that went from renowed strenght and conditonong coaches to renowned coches theat really focuse on details and went slower .( and of course i have seen it visa versa ) So we cant say there is only one way .
personally I feel the worst thing for tri swimming was Total Immersion getting so big , while for some people it does work incredibly well it corrupted a genration of tri swimmers and still does. the 2nd worst thing for tri is that many compnaies trying to brand their coaching comming up with rigid systems. when good coaching is to see what certain swimmer really need. ( snappingt would come to mind despite doing some really good work )
.

The outside party is important IME. Unless you somehow have pretty perfect form and your fitness simply improves, getting some outside coaching/intervention is a big part of it. I've gone from a 2:00+/100 to around a 1:20/100 as an AOS in my late 30's.

It started with a Master's swim class, where I learned some technique and the idea of swimming sets.

It progressed to a different Master's program where we swam mostly sets, less focus on drills.

I swam consistently for 2 years and I'm still growing honestly.

Currently have a swim coach as of last month that opened a can of swim technique flaws I have.

Time and technique with expertise.

No worries, I was not listing the changes I made in any order of priority.



Having taught and helped many AOS swimmers, I would disagree with this.

The order of priority should be with the worst flaws first. Start with the flaws that have the biggest impact on drag first. For some AOS swimmers, that is the head or arms or upper body. But for others, it is the legs or hips or lower body. And I would never discount what a swimmer's arms are doing. Some good research has indicated that fast swimmers are differentiated from slower swimmers by several critical elements. One is that they have excellent distance per stroke (not a higher stroke rate). Another element is that they typically apply a lot more effective force in the first part of their underwater pull (EVF, etc.). Also, in my personal experience, many many AOS swimmers that I have taught came to me doing odd things with their arm entries that added a huge amount of drag every stroke they took. So, when I teach, we fix that pronto.

---

Advanced Aero TopTube Storage for Road, Gravel, & Tri...ZeroSlip & Direct-mount, made in the USA.
DarkSpeedWorks.com.....Reviews.....Insta.....Facebook
--

I started around age 26. Easily >2:00/100y if I could even finish 100. Currently I can swim 100m from a push in 1:08, just did a 400m somewhat choppy ows as part of a sprint tri without a wetsuit in 5:47 with two 90degree turns.

Technique was big for me but it wasn't as simple as just finding a coach. I've bounced around. I've had to find technique that works for me which is still an ongoing process. I started off with TI and that coupled with 8k/week of swimming got me to where I could hold a 2:00/100m pace for 1500m but there was a clear plateau. I basically had one speed: slow. In early 2014 I worked with a local coach who made some minor tweaks and that sped me up to maybe 1:50/100m. In late 2014 I attended a Race Club swim camp and had a total overhaul of my stroke. Gary Hall Sr and co had me go from a slow stroke rate hip driven technique to a high stroke rate shoulder driven technique. The change was pretty dramatic as within a month I posted a massive PR in a wetsuit legal (calm and true) 1500m leg of an Olympic tri: 24:57. And I wasn't on anyone's feet. By the middle of last summer I was a 21:00-22:00/1500m wetsuit swimmer.

The problem was that technique, for me, created a huge delta between wetsuit and non-wetsuit swim times. My legs still really wanted to sink and my kick was a literal drag but that was hidden by muscling through a bunch of 50s.

Recent changes with a local coach have been to do a lot of kicking, work on ankle flexibility, work on breathing from my diaphragm (instead of just chest), and slowed my stroke rate down into the low 60s from the mid 80s while lengthening it a bit. It's not really quantifiable but I finally feel like I'm not going to die when I swim and I feel like my lungs finally outlast my arms/lats.

I've also started swimming A LOT for me. When I'm on the road I try really hard to not dip below 10k/week and when I'm home I'm consistently doing 20k/week.

I started in my early 20's. I'm not quite at the time you mentioned for an 800, but, closing in on it.

In my first tri ever, a sprint, I swam free for maybe 200m, then breast stroked it in to exit the water near dead last.

My first masters club had a coach who knew how to take beginners and get them swimming. I don't think I swam a continuous 50 for 3 months. The first week all I did was face down kicking, side kicking, back kicking. Back and forth. All practice. No pace times, nice and easy, just learning body position and how moving your head effected your body. We progressed through these drills slowly, over weeks, but the lessons sank in.

I think that was the key for me. When I started actually swimming, I magically went from 2:20/100m to 1:50.

I see so many complete novices join masters and on day one coaches are getting saying stuff like "focus on your recovery" "work on your catch" etc. These poor folks are already lost. They are starting in third gear. Learn the basics first. That's the key.

---

Long Chile was a silly place.

I think this might be ignoring some of the life factors that limit us as we get older. Someone that learns to swim as a young person in high school has built a technical basis during a time in their life when they have relatively few commitments and pressures on their time. To pick up swimming in your 20's or 30's you are likely working or have a family or other pressures on your time. Of course you can still dedicate the time to learn how to swim fast, but it takes much more commitment as an adult than it does as a kid.

My coaching experience was the opposite of many here. I have taught both young and older swimmers, and the older ones progressed so much faster due to their ability to focus and actually do what was told. The Kids take so much more repeating and emphasis, although their systems are amazing. I always loved my adult classes as they grew so quickly

---

Gary Geiger
http://www.geigerphoto.com Professional photographer

TEAM KiWAMi NORTH AMERICA http://www.kiwamitri.com, Rudy Project http://www.rudyprojectusa.com, GU https://guenergy.com/shop/ ; Salming World Ambassador; https://www.shopsalming.com

I've been deep in the mix with two swim clubs our TSUN and the Breakers, surrounded by renowned coaches and still had to teach myself really. It's been a humorous & tortuous journey starting with a Canadian redneck stroke (looks like somebody trying to chop firewood in a bigfoot suit, whilst drowning) to mutiny on the beach in my first OWS - I raced with a snorkel, almost collapsing the tube. (Hey at least I didn't have a domestique, that was on my first race :) Funky learn to swim gadgets and drills as seen on here and other hocus-pocus. But you know what I thought was right early on, was actually right.

In our swim clubs, the coaches don't coach per se. They run a process or factory. A feeder mill for swim Canada. I've got a ton of knowledge now, but the only coaching I have done with my son is to get a cap on his head for racing. I also checked his stroke timing last year it was great. There is very little stroke technique advice given & no video above or below water. And yet these ~ 10-18 year olds are busting out AAA times that can slam dunk triathlete swimmers with authority. It's pretty amazing, but there are physical reasons for it.

Anyway AOS is a special (head) case, the clubs rules don't fit. And while I agree we are all after quick results, my AOS program would be very different. So I'll just throw it out there:

#1 Video the swim stroke, from pool deck, side and front
#2 Read the riot act. e.g. "your stroke looks like a bigfoot trying to chop firewood whilst drowning" and "you have no kick"
#3 State clearly what it's going to take, in terms of commitment in the pool and dryland work. (See JohnnyO's post.)
#4 ON THE SNORKEL : Start in streamline, kicking, until they say "uncle".
#5 Getting a long profile in the water
#6 Introduce mini strokes or sculls
#7 Re-take Video: I wouldn't advance past here until I could see some potential
#8 I would also not execute a full stroke until timing of and a level body position has been cleary established.

Super boring, and I doubt anyone would have the patience to stay with the program. But that is my initial take.

---

Training Tweets: https://twitter.com/Jagersport_com
FM Sports: http://fluidmotionsports.com

[/quote]

The main difference between kids and adults learning to swim is the same as adults and kids trying to learn a foreign language. Mental plasticity.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MFzDaBzBlL0

Started swimming 7 years ago at the age of 30. Must have been 2:15 per 100m at the time.

Thought I was "All that" until i saw the masters swimmers. Decided to join them. Started with the old ladies lane. Determined to get to that "fast" lane.

Fast forward to now, 7 years later, sub 1-hr ironman swimmer, leading that fast lane (we're not THAT fast, lol)

It's come down to this for me:

- Swim hard
- Swim lots
- You must get comfortable being uncomfortable.
- Having feet to chase is incredibly valuable. There is no way i would get to where I am on my own. Those guys pushed me.

Well, i guess whether one has more or less time as an adult depends on one's job situation. For me personally, i've been fortunate in that i've always been able to finish my work in well under 40 hrs, and hence could take a long lunch if i wanted to swim, run, or bike at lunch. At times, i've swum in the morning before work, run at lunch, and then rode and run again after work. I'm not married but i was for a few yrs and my spouse did not object to my training, since at least she knew where she could find me, and she knew i wasn't "fooling around" with another girl:)

---

"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

The main difference between kids and adults learning to swim is the same as adults and kids trying to learn a foreign language. Mental plasticity. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MFzDaBzBlL0[/quote]
Well, that's a good point:)

---

"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

Swimmer: 11 yrs vs 55 yrs

Good Posture: Yes / no
Bad Habits: no / yes
Stamina: ok / yes
Listening: no / yes

Flexible :Yes / marginal
Strength: no / yes
Injuries: no / yes

Pool Time : 6hrs / 4-6hrs
Speed : Yes / sort of (ability to spin quickly)
Recovery : Yes / takes longer
Excess Girth : No / a bit
Racing: Yes / No
Technique: good / good
Diet : Good/ Good

Start Date Sept vs Jan

My son and I were about equal times last summer. I was hurt big time through the fall to January and he's vaulted ahead - is doing around 5:20 on 400M, 1:15 100M. The differences I see are the having to deal with previous injuries, posture correction (which is not easy to do), flexibility and putting in a block of pool time. Technique is good enough.

---

Training Tweets: https://twitter.com/Jagersport_com
FM Sports: http://fluidmotionsports.com

Not me, but a friend. When she first raced elite at the AUS national tri champs (aged early 20's, didn't start swimming till age 21), she was a 25+ 1500m swimmer whilst swimming ~25k per week (solo). Within a year of switching to a very good coach (who worked pretty hard on her technique), her time dropped about 5 mins to sub 21, along with a 5.19 400SCM, with no extra distance.

When I first swam with her, she was all over the place, her timing was off, her elbows were dropping - her 25 minute 1500 was achieved with raw fitness. She looked like a different swimmer a year later.

Is this the thread where people brag how they swam a 55 just to end up running a 4 hour marathon? Cool cool.

---

Next races on the schedule: none at the moment

Yeah, so give us our space, man!

I personally did this and have coached a couple who have done it as well. First of all, it's legitimately rare, and the further from 20, the more rare it is.

But like Ken, and Dave and you alluded to; the one common thing I find is that the people who can make those huge jumps in swim speed can make stroke technique changes and have them stick. Some also have the innate feel for what will work, but all of them are able to make permanent stroke changes. Plasticity as Dave mentioned.

I know a few ways to help folks without good plasticity, but it's playing on the edges. Mostly it seems like you either have good plasticity or you don't.

Started "swimming" when I was 20 for fitness. It actually had nothing to do with triathlon. I think I swam a 1500 in 28 minutes and thought I was smoking fast. I did my first sprint tri when I was 23. Then I got into swimming more seriously. My wife - who had no competitive swimming experience - became my "coach" because she's a good study. She researched how to coach, and then she came to watch me swim for a lot of my swims.... and she kicked my butt. Workouts like 3x1500 for time. (She'd found some collegiate swim coach's blog... to my demise.) She and I watched a ton of videos on technique. We went through Total Immersion, which helped with my hip balance issues.

So after all our/her hard work, I swam a 23:XX when I was 24. We thought "I'd arrived."

Then I moved to Ohio with work and joined a really solid masters swim team. Multiple former D1 swimmer and a couple masters world title holders (one of them won the 200 fly).

We didn't have an on-deck coach, they would usually stand on-deck during the warmup and help people with technique during a prescribed warmup sequence. Then they'd jump in and swim the main sets with us. But that alone was enough to open my eyes to the things that my wife and I hadn't fixed (or I'd resisted changing even though she'd called me out on it... yeah I'm stubborn).

So after a few months swimming in the 2nd lane, the coaches told me I was "ready" to move to the fast lane and swim with the super fast guys.

That's when everything changed. That's when I was exposed to a level of discomfort that I'd never before pictured while swimming. Descending sets. Intervals that were theoretically impossible to keep... but I did it anyways because I wanted to keep up. 30 minute TT's, followed by 10x 50 all out. That kind of thing. After two years of suffering through all of that, I finally clocked a 19:XX swim time in an Olympic at age 27.

So for me it was technique first. But then I had to put the hard work in. And a LOT of it.

I've known about 8-10 guys who took up swimming after age 20 and became very good swimmers. About half took up the sport to do triathlons, but the other half simply thought swimming looked like something fun to do. Their 100 free times range from around 53 to 1:00, but a couple also became excellent stroke swimmers, e.g. one guy who was a classic "Arnie" in the Swim Smooth terminology, swam a 58 100 fly and 54.6 100 free. Another guy got down to 1:08 for 100 breast in his early 50s, and a third guy swam 2:25 for 200 back which is pretty quick IMO.

I think you're spot on about the "plasticity", which i've always thought of simply as coordination, really, as if a person is well coordinated, then they can make changes as needed. Do you think coordination is a decent term for the ability to learn to change your form in swimming???

---

"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

I really like Dave's term of plasticity.

A person with good plasticity can become coordinated, but they may not be there now. The coach can identify these people before they are fast or before their technique is particularly good, or before their motions are well coordinated. I have the opposite side of the coin, a lady who is decently well coordinated, not super or anything but a 1:08 scy freesyle lady, pretty solid in the tri world, slow for a swimmer. At any rate, she has what she has, she can't make changes to her stroke at all. So while her coordination is OK, her plasticity is bad.

But it sounds like you understand what I mean and we are discussing semantics.

Hmmm, I see what you mean, i guess i've always thought any 1:08 freestyler could change their stroke if needed but apparently not. So, "plasticity" it is then:)

---

"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

This is really an awesome post and really resonates with me. At age 62 started doing master's workouts for the last 5 months and have made as much progress in that time as the previous couple of years. Got a new coach three weeks ago and made a quick breakthrough based on her feedback on my stroke. Until age 57 I had never swum more than a few hundred yards in the pool and was not comfortable with freestyle, mostly did breaststroke. After a few months of swimming had progressed to 1500 y workouts and a sustained pace of a bit over 2:00 /100 y. But worked hard and made continuous progress. Spent a couple of years stuck at doing my 100 repeats in 1:30-35 and a sustained pace of 1:40-45 or so. Now I'm seeing repeats in the 1:23-4 range and yesterday did a timed 20 minute time trial and held 1:30 pace (that's with open turns, can do flip turns but still not that comfortable with them).

I still only consider myself an intermediate swimmer, looked up some results at master's swim meets and I'd be one of the odd BOP outliers but hoping to some day to reach the level where I can show up for a master's meet and maybe get close to MOP, but if I can do that I'll be killing the tri swim splits.

So many triathletes are stuck in their "the swim isn't that important" mindset and not willing to challenge themselves with master's workouts or a real swim coach. Just wish I'd done it sooner and will say it's really fun to learn a new skill at my age!

I have been swimming with a masters group for 10 months (~3 swims per week), and before that i swam with a triathlon club that had organized swims 2x per week (would throw in solo swim when i could). I go back and forth on if masters has helped me, here are the pros and cons as i see it, curious as to if anyone has similar experiences. I am a 31-35 HIM swimmer

Masters Pros:
Increased focus on technique: we do 700-1000 of drills/warm up, vs ~300 combined when i used to swim with a tri club
More feedback: The coaching is better and I get more feedback than when i swam with the tri club, because their coaches gave a lot of attention to beginners
More opportunities to swim: there are options to swim every day but sunday, which is great
Longer workouts: 90 minutes vs 60 minutes means you have more time for warm up, drills, main set, etc. It is easier to get close to 4K in this setting, usually 2800-3000 with my old group

Masters Cons:
Some of the drill work and warm up feels like junk yards. Last night for example we did 1250 of drill/warm up, that took up a lot of time and I feel only half of it was of real value
Too much feedback: I feel like i get too many different types of feedback, despite it all coming from the same coach. I come from golf, so i know that you can only have 1-2 swing thoughts at once. I feel like they bounce around with what they want me to work on at times
Lack of triathlon focus: they have to cater to a number of types of swimmers, and sometimes i think the workouts are not as aligned with my goals as maybe the triathlon club workouts were.. I sometimes wonder if I maximized my 90 minutes

overall i enjoy the group training, the coaching, and the program, but after a less than stellar swim at Oceanside, if I don't show some progress through the end of the year, I will have some decisions to make.

But I'm only 40 and if I make those improvements now what will I have left to look forward to?
My plan is to gradually improve my training volume and format, my technique, and my race strategy as I age to compensate for any drop in natural physiological ability so that my times never dip. this seems more feasible and sustainable if I set the bar low to begin with.

I think this is where a lot of swimmers are hesitant in the group setting. Have a dialogue with your coach - tell them what you were focusing on, ask them to watch for improvement in specific areas, before moving on to other. Also, with swimming, so many things are interrelated that while it may seem like overload, often a different perspective changes the mindset, and the fix comes. Ex - a guy in my group was having trouble keeping his elbow up on his entry, often slapping with a flat arm, or elbow before fingertips. The coach kept telling him to keep his elbow up for weeks - then he suggested to the swimmer to stay on his side longer to keep his shoulder up, and voila! Fixed entry.

---

I wrote this, you should read it:
https://www.slowtwitch.com/...n_Swimming_6700.html

I'm not sure that for a lot of people the pink font would be appropriate for these sentiments...

I got quite a bit of value out of my first master's coach but a lot of it wasn't very specific to my tri swimming, made big improvements to my breast & back but not as much to my freestyle. And like you, sometimes I felt she gave me too many tips and hard to work all that at once. And my workouts were held back by some other less experienced swimmers that dragged our yardage down. The new coach is more tri focused but in a good way with still plenty of intensity, yardage for each person varies widely, and she seems more strategic in her stroke advice. So unfortunately I think the specific coach makes a lot of difference.

Maybe you should reduce the number of times per week you swim with master's and swim some workouts on your own where you work on the stuff that seems to get slighted in master's, cut out the drills when on your own, etc. Try to get the best of both worlds?

Honestly, although those points are all super valid, I think you're overestimating how special one is to do the bolded above.

I'd say that the majority of AG triathletes, of which pretty much the vast majority are actively trying to improve their swim despite limited pool time, do all of the bolded above if they've been doing triathlon for more than a year.

There's nothing special about watching a lot of youtube videos and articles and forums for the best tips, or focusing on every stroke in practice (what else are you going to focus on??) - it's what most AGers do, even the slow ones who are trying to improve.

I would actually argue pretty forcefully that most BOP-BOMOP AG swimmers who have been trying to improve their swim for years, do both of the above wayyyy more than the fast guys here. Many of these BOPers are with masters programs for years, and have paid for coaching and videos in far in excess of the good AOS swimmers here, and often have a lot more experience in pools and OWS given how long they've been at it.

Of course, studying and focusing on swimming does not in itself translate to speed. That's why clueless elementary school and junior high school kids who literally have no stroke instruction and just hammer it every time they're in the pool, can often crush these over-analyzing AOS swimmers who don't put in the hammerfest hard work.


Technique is important, but the reality is that it's a lot easier for someone born with good swim ability (?klehner?!) to attribute their success to technique. I think it's pretty fair to ask - if you can beat a fellow swimmer in the pool very clearly while you have to pop your head clear out of the water on EVERY stroke, or even beat them readily while swimming with only one arm stroking, whereas they can swim normally, your fitness difference is so big that almost no technical fix that they can do to beat/match you without a big jump in their fitness.

I started triathlon and swim training at 22. The last structured pool work I had before that was swim lessons when I was 6. My first several years, I was just doing workouts from magazines and online coaching workouts. I was doing the drills prescribed, but not under any supervision. Swam 4-5 days/week training for 1/2 and full IMs, ranging from 3000-5000 yds. My best swim was a 1:02 for IM, 33:XX for 1/2. Started at 1:04 and 36:xx.

Joined a small master's group, got some good coaching and attention. Swam 2-3 day's/week at 2000-3000yds per (most) workouts, a few longer in IM build, dropped to a 57 IM CDA and 29 1/2.

The coach at the time was heavy Total Immersion. I think it was perfect for where I was at at the time. The three things that we constantly worked on were: 1) Body position (pressed the buoy, especially when breathing), 2) Wider hand entry (no crossover), 3) Better catch (catch-up drills, swim gloves, visualizing over the barrel).

That's what worked...for me.

Carbon goggles. End of thread.

I'd love to do that!

My last IM was swim close to 60min then blow out to over 5 hour marathon! LOL. OK to be fair, I fried my legs on the bike when my seat broke at 90km and I rode all weird (lots of standing up, swearing to myself)

---

TriDork

"Happiness is a myth. All you can hope for is to get laid once in a while, drunk once in a while and to eat chocolate every day"