The denial carries no weight, it's a pretty standard response to a test failure whether the athlete is clean or dirty. Slightly worrying that he says that now he'll "have the supplements I take tested", you'd hope that with his past and with the team he rides on that he'd already be extremely rigorous about what supplements he took. Taking contaminated supplements might just about be excusable for somebody new to the sport or riding for a low-budget team, but for a convicted doper riding on a World Tour team it would be pretty lax to not be 100% sure of what you were putting in your body.

The B sample hardly ever does anything but confirm the original finding (in fact I can't think of any examples right now where the B sample has come back different?), what will be interesting is how high the testosterone levels were, and what the story is as to how it got there in the first place.

How utterly depressing and also, how unsurprising. I always felt he had little between his ears at the best of times but this confirms it. They don't normally test for synthetic testosterone unless they have a reason for thinking it is present. And presumably this will mean a life ban. Good riddance...

A doper dopes? Next we'll be thinking Justin Gatlin shouldn't be running faster than ever the older he gets!!!

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I don't have anything to add to the Tom Danielson discussion, but the Justin Gatlin situation is a joke.

I'm dreading the Men's 100m Final in Rio, if he gets on the podium (or god forbid wins it) it will just be a slap in the face of everyone watching. What does that say about the state of the sport?!

The synthetic testosterone test is triggered by the testosterone/epitestosterone ratio test and used for confirmation. Occasionallly it will be used alone.

Funny enough, there are several athletes who have been caught with the testosterone test, admitted to using various drugs, but still maintain they were not using testosterone at the time they tested positive for it.

True, Floyd Landis being the most prominent.

Sucks if it's true, I enjoyed chasing Tommy up Mt. Lemmon earlier this year, dude is an animal.

Agree. In fact it was his statement about his supplements that makes me think he is lying, pretty much the standard excuse. 'Supplements' that are legal really do very little IMHO.....pros know this. Not much reason for a pro to need products from GNC if they are eating properly. .02

I thought the final version of that story was that Floyd was doing blood bags during the TdF, not testosterone, but that his doctor cocked up and gave him a blood bag which had been extracted during a training camp in which he was dosed up on testosterone as well? So he got the double whammy of a load of fresh blood AND a big dose of testosterone. Which would certainly go some way towards explaining his performance that day!

Here's what his denial really meant:

"I've being doing it for years without being caught, and pay good doctors good money to make sure about it. How could this happen. This makes absolutely no sense."

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http://www.jt10000.com/

Nope. Landis still adamantly denies using testosterone during that Tour. In fact he says his various B samples that were tested make no sense. They had him negative after the penultimate stage, the critical time trial, and positive after the last stage, for which he says you would have to be an idiot to dope for the last stage when the race is already won. I asked him about contamination of other products he might have been taking at that Tour, like HGH, but he did not think that was realistic possibility.

He also says that when USADA got all the paperwork from the French lab, the UCLA lab was asked to review it. The people at UCLA said it was not a positive under their lab standards. Some in USADA wanted to drop the case, but Tygart pushed on anyway. This is the reason Landis' team pressed so hard to have his B sample tested at a lab other than French one, and why USADA opposed that.

Based on Tyler Hamilton's book I don't think you can lay that one on the doctor if it actually is the case that he tested positive due to a blood bag. If you haven't read the book, here is how they did the blood bags.

1. Give a bag.
2. Come back about 4 weeks later. Give TWO bags, reinfuse the bag from 1 above.
3. Come back about 4 weeks later. Give THREE bags, reinfuse the two bags from 2 above.

All of the bags to be used in the Tour were given at the same time. If they had T in them, you can't really blame the doctor as all of the bags are the same.

Also, if I remember correctly, his T level wasn't really very high at all, it was just that his T/E level was too high and that they found exeogenous (sp?) T to boot.

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My Strava

Fixed it for you.

Thanks, I read the book but guess I hadn't thought through that it would be the rider's responsibility for making sure the blood they were giving was clean, not the doc's

So did the B samples not match the A samples? If that was the case wouldn't the tests have been thrown out as clearly that was a sign that either the samples had been tampered with or the lab had messed up the labelling? I assume Floyd still admits to using blood bags, so is his story that he took them before the time trial but not after? Problem with all these stories is that with all the layers of UCI politics, riders lying, lawyers, journalists with often only a loose grasp of the science, and some fairly complex science underlying it all, it's virtually impossible to ever actually be sure what happened and who's version (if any of them) is the truth. Sometimes I almost (but not quite) agree with those who think it would be easier to just let them all dope and be done with it.

Testosterone testing at that time was a two step process. Samples were screened for their testosterone:epitestosterone ratio. If it was over four then a carbon isotope ratio test would be used to verify synthetic testosterone. All of Landis' samples save one passed the ratio test. Ironically, the arbitration panel threw out the T:TE ratio for that test due to shoddy labwork but convicted him based on the CIR test. To add insult to injury, the technician that did the B sample testing screwed it up 27 times before getting the desired result.

During the runup to the hearing, USADA had all of Landis' B samples tested using the rather dubious reasoning that it needed to validate the test procedure and the results would not be used as evidence. It is those that Landis says make no sense.


I have not asked about the specific timing of his blood transfusions. But he says he was not using testosterone during that year. He found that HGH worked as well, did not have the same side effects, was undetectable, and had other benefits like raising his hematocrit three points without using anything else.


I don't think people understand just how corrupt the UCI is. Unfortunately the CIRC report turned out to be a whitewash, or basically a modified limited hangout, so I don't see things getting any better.

They should just have a listing for doped up times. In that case Gatlin has surpassed Ben Johnson's 9.79. Carry on with this thread. Nothing to see here....another doper busted, and another ex doper will likely win the IAAF 100m finals in Beijing this month.

I'm not sure I believe that Gatlin is an ex-doper, but then I'm not sure that I believe much of the rest of the field is clean either. I would love to believe that Bolt is clean and is just a physiological freak and I'm going to carry on clinging to that hope until proven otherwise, even if the sceptic in me is laughing out loud and slapping his knees at the thought that the fastest runner in the dirtiest event, from a country with virtually no testing regime, and whose team-mates have nearly all served doping bans, could possibly be clean.

i like danielson's wikipedia page:

Born in East Lyme, Connecticut, Danielson currently resides in Boulder, Colorado, with his wife, Stephanie, and their children, Steven (b. 2010) and Stella (b. 2012).[2][35][36] After spending his childhood years in Connecticut, Danielson attended Fort Lewis College in Durango, Colorado.[36] Danielson considers both Boulder and Durango as his home towns. In addition to being married, Danielson has a girlfriend named Kourtney Compton, whom he met in Utah where she was working as a podium girl at the Tour of Utah.[36] It also appears he has doped... again.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

So let's recap....

1) Married and divorced from first wife
2) Doped for years when on Discovery and other teams
3) Re-marries and has two kids
4) Now also has girlfriend
5) tests positive for more doping
6) Still wears his hat backwards


Douchebag.

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Chicago Cubs - 2016 WORLD SERIES Champions!!!!

"If ever the time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin." - Samuel Adams

A couple points:

Vaughters has stated on a couple occasions that 1 positive could mean the end of the team.

If the B sample come backs positive lets see if Talansky comments as he did for guys like DiLuca.

An ex-pro has Danielson at $500k a year. Guys like Phil Gaimon must be eaten up inside over this.

Ironically, Horner has placed second at the Tour of Utah so he may now be the favorite.

Please tell me wiki can't be true (rolling eyes). Tommy D last doped in 2007, per his affidavit (rolling eyes again). I'm sure Vaughters ain't too happy these days- will the team fold?

In February, Vaughters told Cyclingnews, "It’s true we ask for that [scrutiny] and still in ten years we’ve not had a rider dope on our team. Ever. We’ve lived up to that. That was the initial promise. If that ever is broken then Doug and I are out.”

I wonder what Vaughter's spin will be on it, as they indeed are the poster child for "clean teams". Will Grandpa Horner now take Utah?

http://d3epuodzu3wuis.cloudfront.net/...n,+Tom+Affidavit.pdf

118. Although I did have one stage win, I finished a disappointing sixth overall at the

2006 Vuelta a España and by the end of the race I could tell that Johan had given up on me.

119. I continued to experience anxiety attacks and had trouble finishing well in races.

As a result, I stopped doping in 2007.

120. My last meeting with Dr. Michele Ferrari was in 2006.

@lancearmstrong: @Digger_forum @matthewlcooke good riddance fellas.

Seems LA is still a bit pissed with TD.

I think Lance is more saying good riddance to the possibility of Vaughters closing up shop and leaving the sport.

This is called doing a 'Vino'

Aren't you limited to 140 characters on twitter? How could he type such a long response?

Urgh, don't remind me.

I'm from London so that win felt all the more offensive.

Floyd had him amazing day because he kept dumping water bottles on himself. Everyone now knows that dumping water on yourself is a proven performance enhancer.....

Vino went out a winner!

The whole Cannondale-Garmin team has pulled out of the race. While it might seem like a good PR move to JV, this further damages the Tour of Utah.

For the commen above, TD posted his message using multiple tweets.

OK, complete sidetrack on the TD discussion, but I said from day one that this was an overlooked reason that helped Flandis stay away.

No, not the actual dumping of water, but the continual calling up of the team car to get more bottles, etc. Each bottle was a "sticky bottle", which in essence was the same as having a guy to draft behind for a brief moment. It was like having a teammate to help him.

He clearly couldn't have consumed that much water, so they came up with the idea of dumping it over him, whcih allowed him to keep getting more bottles. It really was a brilliant strategy.

(an no, I am not saying that is the only reason Flandis stayed away....just that it definitely helped him manage his energy that day)

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Chicago Cubs - 2016 WORLD SERIES Champions!!!!

"If ever the time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin." - Samuel Adams

Spot on Power13 - he got the "push" each time he got a bottle.

Somehow, not sure why, I trust today's Landis way way over the still rotten-to-the-core UCsillyI.

Not sure who paid off who, but something smells to high heaven with his effed-up "tests".

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Link?

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It was a Neal Rogers tweet. He was incorrect and has since corrected it.

not saying that the sticky bottle didn't help, but cold water really helps on a hot day.

i remember doing my first cat 3 race with two ice socks down my back, and it must have looked ridiculous. The race was only 45 min, and it was in the high 80s with heat index in the mid 90s. I felt surprisingly fresh the whole race and ended up breaking away from quite a few riders with a better resume and got 2nd.

People often talk about losing watts in the summer heat, but i've found a properly soaked cold jersey + ice sock means no loss in power.

Wait.... I'm having a hard time processing this. That's on the dude's wikipedia page?

The bit about the girlfriend was there when I last looked. Not the bit about doping. I took a screen shot!

Another cyclist doping. Why am I not surprised.

What is an ice sock?

i just copied and pasted.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

you can see the previous versions of a Wiki page if you click on the "history" link. It will also show you exactly how long the revision lasted. That particular sentence was up for a whopping 34 minutes.

which sentence, the girlfriend one or the doping one?

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

@Slowman The doping one. I think the girlfriend one is current.

 
It's quite interesting how 'doping' as a topic of discussion has become quite normal and almost 'every day' Dan? I'm thinking, we've got threads like the ITU discussion thread where people go to specifically talk all things ITU. Is it getting to the stage we need a Doping thread? I don't mean that to suggest to stop these types of threads as they'll always happen - and I see no reason why they shouldn't to be honest. But I wonder if a PED thread may serve to both give us an opportunity to openly discuss/debate the whys and wheres etc, but also be quite a good resource? Realise it could potentially be a nightmare to moderate, would just need to state rules at the outset, kinda like your 'about this forum' thread.

Just a thought....

So, will the Team end, if the B sample comes back positive? From an article several weeks ago in the NY Times.

http://www.nytimes.com/...were-clean.html?_r=3

U.S. Cyclists Fight to Spread Their Message: We’re Clean

Shortly after retiring, Vaughters launched a developmental cycling squad dedicated to ethical competition. That team has since evolved into Cannondale-Garmin. Early on, the team implemented a stringent doping policy that remains today. If a rider is caught doping, the whole team will be fired.

get a pair of pantyhose and cut off the top. Fill a leg of the pantyhose with ice down and then tie it shut. Stuff said sock down your back for cooling. Also helps to have something close to your chest as well to cool the front of your torso.

You'd need a full PED forum given the actual use of it in sports...

yeah, i'm ambivalent about that. i get your point.

i'm also waiting for the other shoe to drop in triathlon. i was thinking just over the weekend about how the PTU came down hard on dirk for his tweet about asking lance for help with the union. triathlon's pros are, as a group, very very very anti-doping in their comments. anti-doping, and very anti-readmission of past dopers. consider that TD was a welcomed part of an very anti-doping team, while former dopers would not be allowed entry into most triathlon teams.

that's good. but then i juxtapose this with comments from coaches and others who suspect drug use among pros in triathlon and i wonder whether this sport has a lot of athletes talking the tough talk but who are doping themselves.

i'm wondering what the PTU is going to advocate for in terms of doping. will they ask for 1-strike-you're-out rule? you get kicked out of the union with 1-strike, and if it's a challenge race you can't race unless you're part of the union? that means an effective 1-strike law.

i wouldn't mind a thread on that.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

What's Matt Cooke got to do with this?

It's a grand strategy to rebuild around Sagan next year /pink......sort of.

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not cycling but Bernard Lagat was popped for epo and then the B sample came back and there was no nikEPO.

when Cooke retired last year, he wrote a piece (can't remember where) on his views on doping and how he felt cheated out of things. I think LA was either directly or indirectly named in this piece of writing

Brilliant. Do you ever refill it?

Fun fact, Ricardo Ricco's baby mama popped positive for EPO or testosterone, can't remember (she was italian nats champ for CX at the time), to which he dumped her for having no moral fortitude... only to be followed by being exonerated by the B-sample coming back as clean.

Yes, I remember the piece. It just seems odd that LA would call out Cooke just due to that. Maybe it's because they're both triathletes turned pro cyclists. Or, maybe it's because Cooke called out Danielson specifically in the piece.

http://www.crankpunk.com/...ver-taken-drugs.html

Excellent. I call this the "and" theory. I'm not not talking about the high burden of proof required in a court of law. I'm talking common sense approach to the truth: dominant runner AND dirtiest event AND joke testing policies in home country AND so many teammates who have been busted AND from a poor/backwards country with massive financial incentive for governing body to be corrupt and complicit in cheating

In my opinion, only a fool would not be very suspicious. Personally, I don't think he's clean. He is quite fast, however. That cannot be disputed. A marvel to see, juiced or not.

The only thing that gives me hope for triathlon being relatively clean is that the money in the sport for pros is pretty minimal. Offset against that is the knowledge that doping would be a massive advantage in a sport like ours, and that the testing regime is nothing like as rigorous as cycling, so a smart doper could be pretty confident about not getting caught. Would certainly like to see the PTU take a strong stance on it.

Suspect there's a big AGer doping problem - especially since triathlon seems to be the sport of choice for so many type A executives these days, who would have both the funds and the ambition to dope.

not during a race, but yes during training.

this is where the cold water bottles come in handy in a race as you have to resort to dousing yourself. i've heard of ice socks being handed out at feedzones, but it's awfully awkard to shove something down your back (with the helmet in the way) during a race.

effect of heat is cumulative, so the later you start suffering from it, the more advantage you have over others



thanks for the link; will need to re-read this in light of the doping positive

I don't know, I just remember Landis claiming that Lance was using some drug that was in clinical trials. Somehow something huge like that did not make it into the USADA report at the very least, let alone a criminal investigation on how he got his hands on it, especially since there would be very few sources it should be easy to narrow down how he got it.

Matt is still outspoken and somewhat un-polished about it. He calls out riders he thinks are clean if they are buddies with or promote riders that used to be or he still thinks are dirty.

Money in cycling is pretty minimal except for the top 100 guys in the world, but you still had dudes like Tommy D and Horner getting loaded to lap the field at Redlands in the 2000s.

This is a huge suck, both for the Tour of Utah and for Cannondale-Garmin. It threatens both of their futures.

New favorite at Utah? Uhhhmmm...Dombrowski, Schleck, Jani Brajkovic, Gaimon, Carpenter, Rosskopf. Not a lot of WT talent is there this year.

Such a class act. Good riddance.

Danielson wouldn't add much to that list. Might detract from it. I don't know what other guys Garmin-Cannondale was planning to bring, though, if the entire team pulls the plug.

I hope Vaughters resigns. Not because I don't like him, or because I think he has any role in Danielson's doping. Just because he says he would. He publicly hitched his wagon to Danielson and other known dopers, and the horse went off the reservation *. And Garmin has already cut a few corners in retaining people who almost certainly doped but didn't admit it. Time to stop cutting corners.

* Unless B sample, blah blah.....

What sports union has a real strong stance on doping? Most sports unions seem to be focused on protecting the athletes in the union and this includes from being punished for doping. Just look at unions for MLB and the NFL and how they deal with doping.

Second, just because there is not alot of money, does not mean people dope. Just look at age groupers doping for no money, just the pride of winning. Now imagine the draw of winning something like a world championship, that is enough to get people to dope even if there is not much money.

I love that TD's PR people decided they should remove the "It also appears he has doped... again" but didn't think it was a big deal that they announced he has a girl on the side. Clearly he has his shit straight.

Whole team is sticking around for the race.

I doubt you'll see Vaughters sailing into the sunset quite yet - there's quite a bit of spinning to be done! That said, it would be a massive loss for American cycling if Slipstream closed up shop because of Tommy Douchelord - and I completely agree on JV keeping guys around with dubious pasts and winter breaks. Total BS atmo.

Yeah, whoever Dimspace is on wikipedia has been busy this morning it looks like removing any reference to this round of doping.

True, but even if it's only 100 guys, that's about 10x the number making good money from triathlon, the money is a lot steadier, and the guys at the top are making serious big bucks. The likes of Cavendish or Sagan are making more than any triathlete could even dream of.

I'm not deluding myself, chances are there's a lot more doping in our sport than we'd like to think, but I also think there's reason to hope that it's not as completely pervasive as it was (is?!) in cycling. Some of that is the scant rewards/glory on offer, some of that is not having the team culture and therefore the pressure to dope, some of it is that triathletes generally seem to be better educated than cyclists (possibly because they know they're unlikely to be living off their winnings for the rest of their lives) and have more options in life for making money. A lot of them have actually sacrificed more lucrative careers in order to be pro triathletes, it would seem an odd decision to do that and then dope.

Ok, silver lining time.
When LA got popped, we picked up a $2500 Livestrong treadmill for $750. It can go 5 min pace and is bombproof!
TD's contribution to things is smaller, but I bet the sales price will be under $2 by COB today.

I am sure there is doping in triathlon. Unfortunately, it does not take much to get people to look for any advantage. Last week we had some lady purposely drafting at a small sprint triathlon and the award was a selfie stick. If she did it enough over the course of the season, she may win a windvest for the being the series age group winner.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying people aren't doping, just that I believe there is hope that doping isn't as pervasive as it has been at times in cycling and in sports like track and field sprinting, where pretty much everybody in the top 10 at the big races later turns out to have been dirty.

I think the hypocrisy level is very high. It's just like drafting. As Andrew Messick said to Babbitt last year in Kona, "drafting is always somebody else's problem." You can see it on the forum regularly. I can think of several examples where photos have gotten passed around via email after races showing egregious drafting by some of the most blatant "anti-drafters" on this forum. Drafting is always something somebody else does. Just like doping. I am certain that some of the most outspoken athletes about doping are guilty as sin. I can think of at least a couple examples of athletes who speak quite forcefully on it who I'd put pretty high on my "high probability of doping" scale.

This, for me, was the real revelation in the Lance Armstrong case. Thankfully, in my life, I've been privileged to be surrounded by people that pretty much tell the truth. What the Lance case showed was just how egregiously people will lie. I wasn't really prepared for that. The degree to which people will lie. I'd never experienced that personally. I thought that sort of deceit was essentially limited to bankers and politicians. But it's all around us. Lying - big lying - is something that happens all the time.

Ironically, this actually made it easier to forgive Lance as a person. I mean, I'm not saying that I'm a 100% truth teller, but I always felt like telling the truth was pretty standard. Realizing that Lance wasn't necessarily exceptional in his willingness to lie made it easier to just sort of accept that as part of who he was (or is).

But, especially with the internet, and especially with some of the big leaks that have come out lately, I realized that lying is more normal than telling the truth in the public sphere. Someone pointed out on Twitter that the most astounding thing about Donald Trump is how *REAL* he is, and how fake he makes every other politician seem. I mean, he's a total lunatic, but he's pretty damn genuine. He's clearly not speaking soundbites fabricated in focus groups to appeal to his target demographic. And it's basically blowing everyone's mind. I mean, the idea of Trump as president makes me physically ill. But by no means do I want him out of the race...

Circling back, I'd say there are a significant number of pro triathletes - and AG triathletes - that are simply speaking what they know to be the popular soundbite on doping. I bet you there are some people who were typing stuff blasting cycling for being dirty on twitter with one hand while they shot EPO into their veins with the other.

As far as the shoe dropping, I don't think it's likely. The tests are all - understandably - biased towards preventing a false positive. And while there's actually a pretty "normal" amount of testing done - as compared with other sports - that's really just not that much testing in the grand scheme of things.

But it's not all bad. I think that too often the whole anti-doping thing is about catching cheaters. And if you only look at in that way, it is - admittedly - pretty depressing. But I don't think that it's carte blanche the way it used to be. For example, I am massively suspicious of Froome and SKY. But I think there were probably some guys who did well - really well - in the TdF this year that were clean. I feel like you can win Kona clean. And, to that extent, I think WADA - and associated supporters - are doing a pretty good job.

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It's hard for me to believe there is enough incentive for an age grouper to dope. Maybe a few super elite guys that are pro-hopeful, but that can't be that many people. What's the point of doing that when you have a regular job and family? There is no money. And how much glory is there in being first of ten guys in the 41-43 age group. Whoopdedo!

On the other hand, anybody on a pro podium in any sport is considered guilty in my opinion.

I love the thought of the mental gymnastics that would rationalise drafting but be outraged at the thought of HGH, testosterone or epo

I will say that drafting is at least as problematic in the pro ranks as doping. Because it's clearly endemic. And it clearly impacts race results. And it's cheating, plain and simple. There are good, hard-working pros that are missing out on prize money, bonuses, sponsorship opportunities, and more because of drafting.

In some ways, I feel like the solution is the same - lower the threshold for catching someone and reduce the penalty... Right now, in both cases, it's just too easy to get away with "it."

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"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp

I think this is a total fantasy - see Dev's thread but transmission rates of HIV and Hep are now the same for steroid use in the UK as they are for IV drug users - thats just for looking good

how many 40-50 year old single men are hitting up their doctor for testosterone supplementation?

doping in AG cycling has widely been thought to be endemic in the UK, so all things being equal, given there is no difference between drafting and doping the jump from one to another is not that great

I've done 2 tri's this year, one half and one full and drafting was rife, I cant believe that people think one, drafting, is ok but doping is somehow different

The girlfriend is in Utah. Aren't the Mormons down with that kind of thing?

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i'm looking for PTU to state 1-and-out for the classes of drugs that alter anatomy (blood boosters, hypertrophy); and that they waive the right to a good night's sleep with exceptions (last 2 days before a race, not more than 2 consecutive nights or 3 nights in 7). then i'll be more impressed.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

Are you kidding? How do you explain someone dropping $2500 on race wheels to finish 632 instead of 651 at a IM?

Really? A sport where people are willing to spend thousands of dollars on equipment, train for over 10 hours a week and spend a lot more money travelling to races, sometimes in a multi-year, desperate bid to qualify for Kona. In an era where you can order EPO over the internet, and similarly learn about how to micro-dose, all the while knowing there is basically zero chance of being tested, except actually at a race, maybe...

Recall the recent story of the "Brothers Utah" who were only caught because of the paper trail back to them from their online EPO purchases. Or the Cat 3 racer who got popped when Gran Fondo NY suddenly decided to invest in some surprise testing a few years ago. These stories offer a glimpse at what is really going on.

You are being very naïve if you think there is not much doping in the AG ranks, sadly.

I know, somehow, dropping 1000 on a tri-rig alpha, 400 on a wetsuit, whatever a Shiv or SP, Ventum or Dimond costs, then 300 on a helmet to save 0.000X watts, 5k on wheels but somehow there's not enough of an incentive to do drugs

I could do it the other way, drop a quarter of all that on a bottom range tri bike and have enough cash less over to buy PED's for the next 5 seasons :)

Of course if you've got the cash to drop 5, 10 or 15k on kit, then the drugs are a drop in the ocean

I see your point, but to me dropping $2500 on race wheels is probably more about being a gear junkie than finishing a little higher as you described. Every hobby out there has guys dropping absurd money on inconsequential things. That's the nature of being a dude. haha!

I don't know, knowingly taking dangerous drugs into your system for such little return seems to be in a different realm vs buying absurdly nice gear. The only reason to dope is to win, increase performance, but what are you really winning?...like you said, finishing 632 vs 651? There are lots of reasons to have cool kit and gear and it's common (if not the norm) across all hobbies.

I'm sure there are AG guys doing it, but i'd be surprised if there were more than a few.

I have so often heard this argument. It has different forms, but all basically say "why should I dope? I don't do this for a living." or "what incentive is there to dope when there isn't any money in it?"

Why does the money change anything?

If you have a moral position on whether it's ok to cheat or not, how much money would make you change that position?

Even if your "price" is millions, does that mean it wasn't really a moral position at all, but just a cost-benefit analysis?

I posit that if there is some degree of leeway on whether it's personally "ok" to do it, then it existed way before there was even the chance that doping could "pay off".

This points to basic inner motivations on why a person does a sport, or why a person competes.

Interesting (if old) read.

http://stevetilford.com/...ters-outs-danielson/

I remember the guy who got popped at Gran Fondo NY was quotes as saying the EPO and whatever he was doing was ~$1200/mth habit to be the Cat 3 phenom that he was.

I think that if the Kona winner were to be busted today for EPO, that that would be considered a "shoe dropping". If you recall, this exact thing happened only 10 years ago, and was not major news. I like to think that a Nina Kraft repeat would create bigger waves today.

I say this in a humorous and lighthearted way, but thanks Captain Obvious.

its not the first time I have been the Captain

I don't care and it's not important enough for me to invest that degree of effort in to it but I'm not at the pointy end, i'm also not sure how much more I'd care if I were , though I suspect that the closer I got, the greater the incentive and obvious associated benefits of taking them become - I'm still pretty certain I wouldn't care

I think for the most part, the sports populated with extremely competitive, well off smart individuals with access to resources both financial and knowledge based that could assist them in their quest to dope

I think if people are willing to take steroids, hgh and other drugs just to improve their looks, if they're willing to have plastic surgery, botox to treat lines, and dye their hair to maintain an image, some of them would sure as shit be willing to investigate the improvements in performance that come with a doping program

I'm certain that there's a group that dopes, a group that drafts and dopes and a group that drafts and it wouldn't surprise me at all that there are people in both the drafting and doping group that would say they'd never "draft / dope" and have some sort of distorted mental rationalisation as for why

I think a lot of it would depend on the athlete. I think it would be a bigger impact if it was a male athlete than a female athlete. And I think it would be a bigger impact if it was an "established" athlete than a relative newcomer. But I can certainly imagine a scenario much like what happened with Kraft where the impact would be about the same.

There is a limited amount of outrage to be had - http://fusion.net/...p;utm_campaign=wired

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"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp

Well, maybe Horner can win Utah now. That would just be perfect.

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Suffer Well.

It has nothing to do with money. I have money to buy anything I want in the sport. I can podium in small/medium races for my AG. Big races top 10. No doubt I could podium in those if I doped. Even if you told me I would never get caught (which is probably already true) ,I would never dope. Even if you told me there would be no risks to my health to dope, I would never dope. It is a moral compass issue IMO.

*I'm not the moral police, just pointing out that this has nothing to do with money

i completely agree with you and I believe that there are people at the front who wouldn't do it the same as people at the back, but there are people that would

my point was not that its money related, my point was that as a group people are happy and have the money to spend to go faster so its not a huge leap to believe that a subset of them would not draw the line at a set of Flo's

+1. The "high threshold/high penalty" system has been failing miserably for decades now. "Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results."

Agree with that aspect...I guess dope is not cheap!

Reminds me of the 4 gallon puzzle in Die Hard with a Vengeance

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BVtQNK_ZUJg

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"What's your claim?" - Ben Gravy
"Your best work is the work you're excited about" - Rick Rubin

It's not just the prize money to take into account here, it's the money in the whole sport. That's where triathlon is different from cycling. Cycling is big business. Big name teams with multi-million pound budgets, and huge corporate sponsors. 5 million spectators or something at the Tour de France. Big TV deals. There are an awful lot of people who aren't cyclists who make their living from cycling. That's where a lot of the pressure to dope comes from. You want to make a career out of cycling you need to get on a team. If the team decides that it needs to dope in order to get the wins it needs to keep the sponsors happy and retain it's World Tour place, then suddenly you have a young rider who is having to make an active choice to stay clean and will likely lose his job as a result.

Triathlon is different because for the most part it's an individual sport where athletes tend to hire coaches rather than vice versa. Sure, there are some training teams but they still compete as individuals. It seems like in triathlon it would be much more the case that an individual would have to make a conscious decision to dope (I'm sure many do) whereas in cycling they had to make a conscious decision not to (at least for certain teams in the 90s and 00s that certainly seems to be the case).

Good summary on the age group front.

I am absolutely certain that the number of people going faster in 50-54 today than we were doing in 40-44 ten years ago, is not just linked to the growth of sport, better training and "more drafting". I am more than certain there is a lot of "outside assistance" at play. All the fast pros and age groupers from when were were 30-34 are slower now at 50-54....then you have guys coming out of relatively nowhere and making big gains in their late 40's and early 50's. It defies logic. I can see getting faster on the bike due to equipment and maybe more dense courses with intentional and non intentional drafting. Swim and run time improvements are very very suspect.

But I bet you the guys doping will be done and falling apart in a few years. But they won't care. They will have a spent a few years at the top of the sport, stroked their egos and moved on to the next thing. When pro times don't get faster over a few decades and older age groups get faster and faster and faster (while pros moving into those age groups get slower), there is something wrong.

There is also very likely a group of older age groupers who are doped and THINK they are legal because their doc prescribed the medication. Their doc has no clue about competition/WADA rules and they intentionally don't want to really find out. They kind of know they are doping but justify it to themselves as "Doc's orders".

Amen.

Kevin Moats didn't fall apart. He'd still be competing in WTC and doping like a fiend if he hadn't gotten caught.

Don't believe that dopers are necessarily "ruining" their bodies. There's quite a few of them out there that know what they're doing and can sustain it for awhile.

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"Whether you believe you can or you can't, you are right."

You may wanna ask some of the old WWF / WWE stars what they think about that statement.

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Chicago Cubs - 2016 WORLD SERIES Champions!!!!

"If ever the time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin." - Samuel Adams

Doping has changed a lot in 30-40 years.

You can't compare the crap that the older wrestlers did to themselves with what an AG triathlete can today take legally under a doctor's care to boost their performance.

Not the same.

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"Whether you believe you can or you can't, you are right."

Ftfrst wrote:

I remember the guy who got popped at Gran Fondo NY was quotes as saying the EPO and whatever he was doing was ~$1200/mth habit to be the Cat 3 phenom that he was.

Here's the article. Good read to understand the slippery slope

LOL.....you may wanna review that post and see if you can find the fatal flaw in your logic.

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Chicago Cubs - 2016 WORLD SERIES Champions!!!!

"If ever the time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin." - Samuel Adams

I was talking about AG'ers. ;)

LOL yourself.

You can't compare pro wrestlers' doping experiences of the past, to the average AG tri athlete doper of today, to make the point that triathletes are ruining their bodies with doping.

The types of drugs, quantity, and knowledge of long term effects of different drugs and drug combinations have changed. Getting regular T injections under a doctor's care for "aging" issues does not necessarily carry the same health risks as gobbling handfuls of Dianabol.

Hope I cleared that up for you.

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"Whether you believe you can or you can't, you are right."

Age group bike racing like age group triathlon is NOT big business. Master's racers have been getting popped pretty regularly for the last few years since USAC started testing extensively at masters nationals. But that's because they've been testing masters cyclists. I can probably count off 10 to 15 guys that I personally know who are over 40-45 who've been drug tested at bike races over the last five years. I've been tested 5 (FIVE) times. All since I turned 50 in 2011. A number of triathletes seem to live in the fantasy world where triathletes don't dope. The reality is that they don't test triathletes in anywhere near the same numbers that they are testing in other sports. If they ever start doing extensive AG testing in triathlon I think some people here are in for a rude awakening when they see the positive tests start adding up.

People dope for all kinds of reasons. Making big bucks is only one small reason.

I don't think that doping is necessarily all over AG cycling or triathlon. I don't worry whether or not the guys who beat me (or not) are doping. There are a lot of great, clean athlete's. But I do know that there are dopers out there in all sports. It's just a matter of putting more resources into catching them.

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Kevin

http://kevinmetcalfe.dreamhosters.com
My Strava

I had to laugh when I read that TD was "shocked" that he had tested positive. Living here in Durango CO for over a decade now I can attest that it is common knowledge here that Tommy D's first wife divorced him over his incessant doping many years ago, long before he had his first official suspension.

To be "shocked" I guess means that he thought that he had a free pass to dope up a storm given that he was going to compete in a US stage race. He must have confused the Tour of Utah with the AMGEN Tour of California. TD was never the sharpest tool in the box......guess that his second wife and current groupie/girlfriend are going to be disappointed.

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Tony Verow MD
Durango, CO 81301
Averow@bresnan.net

Amazing article. It's hard to wrap your head around spending that much a month and taking that kind of chance to win as a Cat 3, but then after reading the article I can see how someone can get obsessed.

Some people argue that Lance's testicular cancer was caused by the steroids. PEDs will have side effects, no matter how advanced they get... it just may be awhile before we figure out what those side effects actually are. Especially when guys are guzzling some new drug that they found out about last week.

Still missing the point completely.....

moving on.

---

Chicago Cubs - 2016 WORLD SERIES Champions!!!!

"If ever the time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin." - Samuel Adams

There hasn't been a clean Olympic final heat of the 100m since before steroids. The state of the sport hasn't changed much in 30-40 years, people are just starting to notice now is all.

Let's look at his past:

#1 dope to either get a pro contract or keep a pro contract or both
#2 get a pretty decent paycheck from doing #1
#3 sign with a team owner who knows I doped yet gives me a pass as long as I promise to stay clean and to no longer wear my hat backward
#4 admit to doping and receive a 6 month ban over the winter.
#5 keep my pretty decent paycheck even after #1 and #4

Why would he stop doping? Partly you have to look at this as a failure of USADA and #4.

"I am absolutely certain that the number of people going faster in 50-54 today than we were doing in 40-44 ten years ago, is not just linked to the growth of sport, better training and "more drafting". I am more than certain there is a lot of "outside assistance" at play. All the fast pros and age groupers from when were were 30-34 are slower now at 50-54....then you have guys coming out of relatively nowhere and making big gains in their late 40's and early 50's. It defies logic. I can see getting faster on the bike due to equipment and maybe more dense courses with intentional and non intentional drafting. Swim and run time improvements are very very suspect.

But I bet you the guys doping will be done and falling apart in a few years. But they won't care. They will have a spent a few years at the top of the sport, stroked their egos and moved on to the next thing. When pro times don't get faster over a few decades and older age groups get faster and faster and faster (while pros moving into those age groups get slower), there is something wrong.

There is also very likely a group of older age groupers who are doped and THINK they are legal because their doc prescribed the medication. Their doc has no clue about competition/WADA rules and they intentionally don't want to really find out. They kind of know they are doping but justify it to themselves as "Doc's orders". "
----------------------------------------------

Dev,

I tend to mostly agree with you and there is certainly a lot of doping in our upper age groups by folks who have the inclination, money, and connections to do so. I am now in the 55 - 59, and, at least locally, am still in the competitive hunt . . . much more so than the 55 - 59 guys when I was a youngster. However, there is now a fairly large cohort of us who have been around racing for 20, 30, or more years (me, 34). Additionally, folks who didn't have kids as late as me are now empty nesters with more time to focus/train. Lastly, some of these people coming back are former class athletes who have the genetics to ramp up very quickly - they were just otherwise occupied for the last couple of decades.

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David
* Ironman for Life! (Blog) * IM Everyday Hero Video * Daggett Shuler Law *
Disclaimer: I have personal and professional relationships with many athletes, vendors, and organizations in the triathlon world.

No people started noticing back around 1976. So then Charlie Francis figured that the only way to compete with the East Germans was to put the Canadian sprinters on the full cocktail, which simultaneously all the US sprinters had figured out.

Just a few excerpts from here:

At the 1984 Summer Olympics in Los Angeles, he reached the 100 m final; after false starting, he won the bronze medal behind Carl Lewis and Sam Graddy with a time of 10.22. He also won a bronze medal with the Canadian 4x100m relay team of Johnson, Tony Sharpe, Desai Williams and Sterling Hinds, who ran a time of 38.70. By the end of the 1984 season, Johnson had established himself as Canada's top sprinter, and on August 22 in Zurich, Switzerland, he bettered Williams' Canadian record of 10.17 by running 10.12.

...By the time of the 1987 World Championships, Johnson had won his four previous races with Lewis and had established himself as the best 100 m sprinter. At Rome, Johnson gained instant world fame and confirmed this status when he beat Lewis for the title, setting a new world record of 9.83 seconds as well, beating Calvin Smith's former record by a full tenth of a second.

....Following Johnson's defeat of Lewis in Rome, Lewis started trying to explain away his defeat. He first claimed that Johnson had false-started, then he alluded to a stomach virus which had weakened him. Finally, without naming names, Lewis said "There are a lot of people coming out of nowhere. I don't think they are doing it without drugs. " This was the start of Lewis' calling on the sport of track and field to be cleaned up in terms of the illegal use of performance-enhancing drugs.


This says it all from 1988....if i recall, Calvin Smith and Robson Da Silva had no doping trail behind them. In any case, its not like people are just noticing. These guys had already noticed what the East Block was doing and stepped it up. That was starting 30 years+ ago. Can a human physically go sub 10 without being doped. Maybe Calvin Smith proved that (barely) in 88. We have a young Canadian kid from USC who may just do that again (ran wind aided 9.7x at NCAA's)

Thanks, I was thinking of edit myself, but you beat me to it.

I want to say, "this has to stop", yet I know it will not and is impractical with so much $ on the line for athletes.

Heck, armatures are doping and they pay for the stuff out of pocket, so there goes my logic. Letts just have an "open" catagory and be done with it.

Might not help. Bodybuilding tried that with the "natural" category. But a lot of bodybuilders claim that a huge % of "natural" bodybuilders are doping....

yeah, I've never understood the logic of this proposal. People who dope and cheat are doing it to get an advantage on their fellow competitors. Why in the world would they suddenly say "Oh, OK....I'll just compete over here with all the other guys who have been cheating even though I have never been caught."

Doesn't it seem more likely that they would just continue with the behavior as it always has been? Why elect to go compete against others over whom you don't have an advantage?

---

Chicago Cubs - 2016 WORLD SERIES Champions!!!!

"If ever the time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin." - Samuel Adams

Anybody have the scoop on the testo d13C levels in the A sample?

Maybe it was fallout of all the 4th of July beer binge drinking, or the yeast infection.

Stay tuned....

I got your point.

Bye now.

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"Whether you believe you can or you can't, you are right."

Wait, what? My communication skills are "poor" but you got my point.

Hmmm...more poor logic.

Anyone else find it disturbing that an apparent tri coach is taking such a stance re: the use of T by Age Groupers?

---

Chicago Cubs - 2016 WORLD SERIES Champions!!!!

"If ever the time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin." - Samuel Adams

Oh, ok, a personal attack.

Hope it makes you feel better. Especially since you didn't get my point.

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"Whether you believe you can or you can't, you are right."

I disagree. I doubt you do nothing morally incorrect.

For whatever reason, though, you decided that you wouldn't do it with regards to this certain subject in this specific area of sport.

It's not a moral compass issue, it's your feelings in regard to a specific issue in a specific sport. Not that such a notion of "fairness" or "justice" or whatever wouldn't roll over to other areas, but I don't for a second believe you don't knowingly and willingly deviate from the heading of your "moral compass".

Dude, I think its this part

what an AG triathlete can today take legally under a doctor's care to
boost their performance

It appears as a coach you MAY be saying its ok to take "T" and compete

this is looking like a semantic argument on the meaning of "legally"

meh

For sure. It is just that you average spectator still didn't really notice (and still doesn't). It maybe becoming more common knowledge with the average fan now though.

i think i agree with go tri coach. unless i missed a post somewhere, i didn't see him saying that doping today is now ethical because it might be safer. i just hearing him say that it's probably safer, because we know more now, and because it's more typical to find an athlete cheating under the care of a doctor than cheating not under the care of a doctor.

just as we know how it's easier to not die using EPO than was the case in the mid or late 90s, cheating is probably safer now than it was when you could kill somebody hitting them over the head with the jawbone of a female bodybuilder.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

Of course it's not ok.

My point was that not all athletes who dope are "ruining their bodies", destined to suffer horrible side effects in the short/long term.

Taking T under a doctor's care and then competing without a TUE is still against the rules. It's cheating and it's wrong, especially the way many docs are handing out scripts like candy to athletes that don't really need it for basic health.

I like to think karma exists, but for every athlete that "ruins" their body, there are plenty out there living healthy lives despite their doping past.

And with doping (T scripts) today being available legally under US law (not sure how it is in other countries), the cheaters will be able to cheat longer and with less risk of life threatening side effects. At least until we test more and educate triathletes on what doping is. As I have said previously, some "cheaters" don't even know (or believe) they're cheating.

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"Whether you believe you can or you can't, you are right."

Sorry for the dumb question, but I am trying to understand how potentially bogus the "contaminated supplement" argument is.

Would synthetic testosterone in a sample be the same as having taken any of the quasi legal supplements like Androsteen or DHEA? I would find hard to believe that a reputable vitamin maker (if there is such a thing) would also be producing controlled substances, but I could understand some moron not carefully cleaning the machinery.

Also, would or could some of the steroids they use in cattle (not necessarily legally) produce the same result. I work in the food business and I have heard stories from reputae sources about Chlenbutonol (sorry about the spelling) still being used on beef cattle.

I think it varies by manufacturer, but my understanding is that the supplement manufacturers generally outsource production. So they're contracting with some other company to mix the stuff and put in pills, etc. And who knows what else that other company is making the rest of the week, etc.. That other company might forget to properly clean the equipment, etc.

Of course that creates a great chain of plausible deniability for both the athlete and the supplement manufacturer.

I generally don't buy it.

I'd say you have a better chance at winning the lottery than his B sample not turning up positive and all the implications that brings along with it.

I'd really like to hear Phil Gaimon's thoughts on this. I enjoyed reading his book (Pro Cycling on $10 a Day), but one of the things I didn't get was why he spent 1/4 of the book talking negatively about ex-dopers like Francisco Mancebo who are still competing, but yet he's buddy buddy with ex-dopers like Tom Danielson who are still competing and drawing a good paycheck. Other than the fact that Gaimon and Danielson were both teammates at the time he wrote the book, there really wasn't much of a difference.

Yup. The way this goes is he brings some innocent 3rd party supplement manufacturer into it. After lengthy and expensive investigation and testing no fault is found on their part so TD gets his lifetime ban, but because TD has no remaining samples of said tainted supplements to be tested, he goes forever into the great unknown continuing to claim his innocence. A few diehards and friends/family will believe him, but not many.

The good news for those who desire dopers to get what's coming to them, is that sweet karma will come his way. Unlike LA who will always be a very wealthy man courtesy of ill-gotten cycling fame and Hincapie, Leipheimer, Zabriskie, etc... who more or less escaped with reputations intact, Danielson's life is going to suck, at least until he finds his next career. Cycling won't touch him with a 10' pole and cycling is all he knows in life. He isn't going to be a commentator and he isn't going to be a DS and he isn't going to have a Gran Fondo. He won't have any of the "yeah, but everyone was doing it and he just did it best" supporters like LA. No one's going to have sympathy for the idiot who skated by with a slap on the wrist because "Lance made them all do it", who then goes and gets busted again. The guy's going to be a pariah.

That's a huge difference, socially.

It's far easier to demonize those we don't know then those we do. (This forum is a good example).

In terms of my pissant masters world I've seen some a guy who's almost violently anti-doping turn to mushy apologist rationalizing when someone they knew got popped.

There's really two options here.

One is that, for obvious reasons, you have a lot of shady manufacturers that sell bogus supplements that are laced with testosterone/etc because that actually works. Sell a bunch of pretend herbs that are really testosterone, and yes, amazingly, you get the benefits of testosterone. This happens a LOT. There are numerous articles out there about this happening. This is illegal, but it happens. BUT, these are highly shady supplements. This is the stuff that's like "Testo911EXTREME" or "GETROCKHARDANDRIPPED" and other crazy stuff that no one with half a brain would take.

Another is when you have supplement manufacturers that manufacture supplements that are NOT WADA approved, but which are perfectly legal. DHEA would be a prime example. You can buy DHEA over the counter in CVS. So the idea of cross contamination of a legal OTC substance in a supplement is certainly possible. This can even happen in certain factories. Like, I am fairly sure this is what happened back when those Hammer-sponsored athletes got busted. Hammer had their stuff made in a factory that also made some of this other stuff and there was cross contamination. This is relevant because you can have a generally reputable manufacturer that can suffer from this. Less likely now, but I'm sure it still happens. This is way more of a possibility depending on what the positive test was for. For synthetic testosterone? Unlikely. Testosterone is a controlled Rx substance. If it were DHEA, then, yes, that's a lot more likely. Or this was more common back before ephedra was taken off the market too. But there are some other supplements - mostly stimulants that you find in a lot of "fat burners" - that are legal to sell OTC but are not legal under WADA. If you get busted for one of these, then I'd say it's a lot more credible to say it could be cross-contamination.

If you read through USADA's "high risk list" you'll get a sense of contamination risks, both in terms of what stuff is likely to be contaminated and also with what - http://www.supplement411.org/hrl/

That said, the Hammer nutrition case showed that cross-contamination does indeed happen - http://www.cyclingnews.com/...ver-contamination-1/

I would never have thought twice about taking Hammer stuff before that. I *did* take Hammer products around that time, including Endurolytes. I just was never tested.

But you can be a lot more diligent now. There are plenty of manufacturers that take steps to ensure quality. There's the NSF "Safe For Sport" designation. First Endurance works only with manufacturers that do not produce ANY banned substances in the facility where First Endurance products are manufactured. First Endurance and several other companies provides COA (Certificates of Analysis) that offers a guarantee as to what is - and what is not - in each batch of whatever they make.

You can be careful. And be smart.

This is actually one thing where I object to the whole, "Supplements do not work." There are actually quite a few supplements that we know work really well - caffeine being the first that comes to mind. But beta-alanine, nitrate (beet root juice), vitamin D, and some others are have been pretty much proven to be performance enhancers. And there's others where the verdict is still out - like carnitine and some of these "super juices" acai, etc with high ORAC scores - where more research is warranted. Heck, I think it's a mistake to extrapolate from the fact that the "average" person doesn't need a multivitamin to say that professional athletes who beat the shit out of their body doesn't need one. But WADA hurts their credibility, IMO, by basically taking this stance of supplements don't work. Because it's a blurry line in many cases. Is whey protein a "supplement" or a food, for example. Fish oil vs eating fish. Etc, etc.

I do believe, however, that this "out" has been abused though. There was that case of the cyclist who had the pharmacist who testified, "oh, I dispensed some testosterone (or something) right before I sold Mr. X a bunch of empty gel caps that he used to make salt pills." It was something like that. Of course, that's entirely possible. It's also entirely possible that the cyclist was doped to the gills, paid the pharmacist off (it's not like the pharmacist did anything "wrong" if he somehow made that mistake), and everyone was happy. Or the sprinter who got off because he had been taking some Chinese "male enhancement formula" that was SHOCKINGLY!! laced with some testosterone.

Sort of a long answer. Yes, lots of athletes claim this as an excuse. But, yes, innocent athletes have suffered because of cross contamination. And yes, other athletes have likely manipulated this to explain how it happens.

In the case of the Hammer athletes, they basically got a clean slate, because it really wasn't reasonable that they should have worried. In the case of the sprinter, he had his results from that meet wiped, but no suspension.

It wouldn't surprise me at all if Tom D was reading the High Risk List right now, looking for something laced with synthetic T, ordering up a bottle, claiming he took it all along, and trying to craft some story of, "well, I got this girlfriend on the side, and I need a bit of help, and so I took..." Historically, USADA has actually been relatively forgiving in cases like that. I can understand that - athletes do dumb shit all the time and the purpose of testing is not to suspend someone for 4 years for being dumb. BUT, you also then open the door to abuse by people pretending to be dumb...

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"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp

Very. Two things would need to happen.

1) You'd need to have a contaminated supplement with a controlled substance. This is hard.

2) You'd need to actually absorb the (theoretically contaminated) minuscule amount of T through your digestive system in order to produce a positive result under carbon isotope scrutiny. This is VERY hard.

Barring a lab fuck up, he's screwed. If so, my guess is he was doing long weeks during the mid-season lull and feeling shitty. He's old (relatively speaking), and his endocrine system was somewhat adapted to receiving synthetic help, so what'd he do? Easy, rub some cream on the nuts or go straight subcutaneous if he was feeling spunky.

cognitive dissonance on Gaimon's part

Popular now
Phil Gaimon ‏@philgaimon Jul 29
Proud to write about being clean for @Cyclingnewsfeed http://www.cyclingnews.com/features/phil-gaimon-what-does-it-mean-to-be-a-clean-bike-rider/ … @OPTUMpbKBS

if he decides to keep mum on this, he loses all credibility in my eyes.




incorrect at least as far as EPO is concerned.

FDA put out a black box warning for prescription of EPO back in 2006 in cancer patients. This stuff is not "Orange Juice" and has actual, deleterious, side effects.

Gaimon did post a quote on twitter, along with a handful of other staunch anti-doping athletes, and some others who have been banned. But, the silence and cycling omerta is deafening right now. Very, very few active pros (I'm focusing here on top domestic U.S. racers and World Tour guys that might be racing in the U.S.) have made any comment. If everyone is clean or the sport is trying to get clean, when a top U.S. racer gets busted, I would think all the clean guys would stand up and be super pissed at yet another rider tested positive, in this day of 'clean cycling'. It's all a marketing PR scam, as it has been for decades, in my mind, with many riders still doping.

An amazing- clean rider- quit cycling 16 years ago- Rewind to cycling’s dope-soaked days of 1997, and such a friendship would have seemed unfathomable.
Mercier, then aged 28, had just quit the US Postal team after refusing to pump himself full of erythropoietin – EPO – prescribed to him by the team’s doctor.
His place had been taken by Armstrong, a brash young buck who had no qualms following the team’s orders and went on to become the most successful athlete in the history of the sport, before his downfall in June 2012, when Travis Tygart’s US Anti-Doping Agency laid bare the biggest conspiracy “in professional sports history”.
twitter today-
Scott Mercier þ@ScottMercier1 8h8 hours ago
And when a guy who is a "massive natural talent" is popped - who has been getting his ass handed to him - it's not encouraging
Scott Mercier ‏@ScottMercier1 9h9 hours ago
Seems like a huge hole got blown into the theory that it's all clean since 2006 - There's only so much bs we can take...
Scott Mercier ‏@ScottMercier1 8h8 hours ago
I wonder how many #marginalgains can be found at the tip of a needle?

Matt Cooke ‏@matthewlcooke 6h6 hours ago
Its funny actually, if Travis Tygart had actually done his job this would not be happening now. @usantidoping
Matt Cooke ‏@matthewlcooke 2h2 hours ago
Creed, teammates w/ Lance, Danieson, Vaughters, Sevilla,,Leogrande, Mancebo. Oh yeah and I have f@cking text messages where he outs himself.
Matt Cooke ‏@matthewlcooke 2h2 hours ago
Read this, both Creed and Horner say "Lets wait and see." 2 guys who...well I've told you already.

Ben Jacques-Maynes ‏@Benjm1 13h13 hours ago
Countdown to @matthewlcooke Twitter 'splosion in 3...2...1...

Phil Gaimon þ@philgaimon 3h3 hours ago
Still digesting everything. If he did it, I believe it was tragic desperation or perhaps some kind of addiction. All I feel is sad.
Phil Gaimon þ@philgaimon 2h2 hours ago
I hope folks don't blame me or feel like I was duping them if it turns out I had things wrong in the book. I wrote from the heart.

Fearless GLþ@Doefnix 9h9 hours ago
@lancearmstrong @Digger_forum @matthewlcooke they told me doping stopped when you retired, why did they lie to me? so sad today...

Steve Tilford- amazing blog- another clean rider- check out his blog about Tommy D- some highlights:

Tilford writes: "This is one of his tweets from last night. “Especially after everything I have gone through the last years.” He is saying that it makes “absolutely no sense” that he would take drugs currently, even though he took drugs to get into the Pro ranks of the sport and was only “caught” after he was subpoenaed to testify concerning Lance. And even then, it wasn’t public until his team director, Jonathan Vaughters “leaked” it so brilliantly.
I already wrote a pretty long post on my views of Tommy D It pretty much summed up my experiences with him over his “career”.

Anyway, addressing his tweet. My question is why wouldn’t you “take anything”, especially after what you have gone through. You’ve been racing on drugs your whole career and have never turned up a positive doping control, so what would be the reason that you wouldn’t dope? The reason is the small, minute chance that you might get caught. And that happened. Dang. Bad luck.

So, your choices are you dope and feel great, kick ass racing bikes, or you are a piece of shit athlete and you can’t compete and you have to watch from the outside. You made that choice years ago, I can’t see any reason you would stop."


Michael Rasmussen þ@MRasmussen1974 Aug 2
Only The most naive can permit themself to be shocked

I agree with everything you write, but.....

From everything I've read on this, the capsules independently tested were in the physical custody of Simone Keat prior to testing. The article you link suggests the same, "....Simone had the capsules in question independently tested by the WADA-accredited Doping Control Centre lab in Malaysia in June of 2006..."

And the *only* samples tested were those provided by Simone Keat: "...Vine and Neben then joined the suit, but their actual capsules were not available for testing. ..."

That's a huge chain-of-custody problem, in my mind.

Not calling the them all liars, just saying that's horrible chain-of-custody. That wouldn't fly in any criminal prosecution. I'm surprised the CAS accepted it at all as an ameliorating circumstance. Sometimes the CAS really does use kid-gloves.

I agree on CAS being pretty accommodating here. I think "perception" plays a way bigger role than some may think, which I understand but also don't. As I said, it's crazy to think that you ban someone for (now) FOUR years because they were stupid about what protein powder or electrolyte supplement they used. At the same time, either strict liability is the policy or it's not.

The policy is totally black and white... Except when it's grey.

As you and I have both said on this forum, a lot of this seems to argue for lower thresholds and lower penalties. I mean, why not try it? I was a huge proponent of the four year ban until I actually thought about the number of athletes it would affect versus how many are likely doping.

Jimmy Riccitello and I have had the same discussion regarding drafting. Busting guys often is at least plausibly more effective than only busting the most egregious offenses.

And you have degrees. Just like how you have technical fouls and regular fouls. If you get busted for a T:E ratio of 100:1, that's different than 10:1. If you're riding for 10min right up a guy's ass, that's different than sitting at 11.9m for 2min.

The hard part, though, is that catching guys drafting takes a pair of eyes. Blood tests and urine tests are expensive. REALLY expensive. It's close to $1000/test dollars for blood+urine if you test for EPO. That's an issue not easily solved. Though perhaps the cost of the testing also goes down if the thresholds go down. I don't know enough to comment there.

One of the sad ironies is that this is basically the exact opposite of the criminal "war on drugs." There, it's basically absurdly easy to convict someone. There's a balance. It needs to be harder to throw someone in jail for weed, but it should be easier to penalize someone for EPO...

---

"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp

"incorrect at least as far as EPO is concerned."

i'm pretty sure i'm on solid ground in saying that, while it's not without side effects, and while it's cheating, and while you can die from it, because of what cheating endurance athletes and their enabling doctors have learned it is safer now to take EPO than it was in the 90s, when cyclists were dying of hematocrits in the 60s.

---

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

"Safer" does not equal "safe".

And the reality is that we don't really know what decades of widespread T use will bring 10-20 years down the road. We can have a "pretty good idea", but we certainly don't know that it is "safe".

That was the point I was making. And yes, I still find it troubling that a tri coach has such a lax attitude towards the use of T.

---

Chicago Cubs - 2016 WORLD SERIES Champions!!!!

"If ever the time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin." - Samuel Adams

I think if he'd been riding for any team save Garmindale, the tone of the reaction would be quite a bit different. If it had been Horner, you can bet he'd be getting dragged through the streets of downtown Logan tonight.

Right now, there's the very real possibility that a lot of guys are going to be without jobs and American road racing is going to take a massive body blow from the consequences. No one is covering anything up, but no one is singing about it from the rooftops yet. Make sense?

There was nothing in what I said that indicated that I condoned, or had a lax attitude towards T use.

If you are going to attack someone, at least have a clue what you're talking about.

You seem to be an angry person looking for a fight -- maybe you need a little less T yourself.

Go for a run. You'll feel better.

---

---------------------

"Whether you believe you can or you can't, you are right."

There is only one of us making personal attacks...and it ain't me.

---

Chicago Cubs - 2016 WORLD SERIES Champions!!!!

"If ever the time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin." - Samuel Adams

Breathe in, breathe out...

That's it.

Now. Don't you feel better?

---

---------------------

"Whether you believe you can or you can't, you are right."

""Safer" does not equal "safe"."

exactly. i'm glad you agree with what i wrote.

"I still find it troubling that a tri coach has such a lax attitude towards the use of T."

i didn't read that in what he wrote. maybe you can point out to me what he said. maybe there was a post of his i missed.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

If the team folds, than so be it, and actually Vaughters word will be more meaningful. If Vaughters wants to back pedal, that's fine for him, but his words will mean even less. If TDs 'clean' teammates rip apart his actions, that will mean something to, of course it could all be lies, as they historically have been, but silence is the easy way out.

So is Tommy D the old or new generation, anyway, as the new generation doesn't dope.

Talansky ripped apart Di Luca for testing positive, will he rip apart TD? From talansky's blog... Golden, just golden, as long as you believe, too bad there have been tons of positive athletes since that blog post..... I think Lance told us to believe as welll with his yellow jersey Paris TdF podium speech....


"Tomorrow, I will line up at the start line with my teammates and competitors, and we will race. A deserving winner will stand on top of the podium. That is what I believe. I love my sport and I will do anything to share that love with all the real fans out there, to give journalists something real to write about. So here is my challenge to all of you: BELIEVE! If you are capable, believe in me, believe in my team, believe in my competitors, believe in this sport. I do. It has so much good to offer, so much excitement to share, so much inspiration to provide, all you have to do is believe."
Posted 11th February 2011 by Andrew Talansky

Talansky might want to consider a second career as a preacher.

I don't think Cannondale-Garmin will fold. Cannondale needs a WT team to promote its brand. The team ownership and sponsorship is different now than when JV made the various comments people are now quoting. Plus it is easy to let Danielson take the fall alone. They gave him a chance, offered him a safeharbor despite his history, and he blew it.

let me be clear. this fellow, ga tri coach, he might be muling dope to all his athletes. he might be sending all his athletes to cenegenics. i don't know. i don't know him (as far as i know). it's just that i remember in the 60s and 70s that an older generation was telling the youth that killer weed will fry your brain. scare tactics didn't work. honesty would have been better in retrospect.

in all other areas of slowtwitch data rules. i think when it comes to doping, data should also rule. reason should rule.

what i HOPE, when my worse angels are running things, which is often the case, is that people who're taking low-T in order to dope are supercharging their latent cancers. i hope they get acne, tiny balls and, god help me, a little dose of lung cancer.

but i don't know that this is the case. i don't know whether taking EPO and testosterone as a 55 or 60 year old prolongs your years or shortens them. yes, there are side effects to all these drugs, and i also know firsthand there are side effects to aging. so, i just don't know. and that's one reason why, beyond the ethical fact (it's cheating) i don't take drugs to enhance my life - i don't know. it's a young science.

so, while a part of me hopes those who're taking PEDs are growing little cancers, and that their dicks will fall off, i don't know. and i must assume taking EPO is safer than it was 20 years ago because i don't hear of athletes dying because their blood is the consistency of tomato sauce. i just think it's always going to be better to speak the truth, even if it's not the message we'd choose.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

Another sad day for the sport, but doping aside, what really has me confused is how the door knob on the left managed to get a date with the girl on the right?

---

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

this is very easy to answer. if you saw my wife, you'd know that i'm an expert on how doorknobs can land bettys.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

He was buying Roofies while he was at the chemists..

"3 for me, one for her.... 3 for me , one for her..."

Sorry I guess my question wasn't very clear. I was asking if something like DHEA could trigger a synthetic testosterone positive. If it could/would, then I can see a cross-contamination defense being at least plausible. If the answer is no, then my BS meter is registering an 11.

I don't think it is very likely that a vitamin company would be working with both a controlled substance And some snake oil supplement like saw palmetto, which I just took in the hope that it will help my old man prostate. :-)

Yes, but over the long term, you bring a whole lot more to the table compared to TommyD.

I used to think there was a chance of a false positive, but I am no longer willing to give them the benefit of the doubt.

---

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 Gaimon lived in TD's basement last year when they were teammates. Apparently he has more latitude for dopers proffering a cot to sleep on.

actually the truth is we do not know.

T supplementation leads to prostate CA - we think, now we all end up, most of the time, dying with prostate CA rather than of it, but if I'm 40-50 and start taking it, the likely hood of it being dying of, rather than with, changes

the issue here is that CA is not understood well enough to understand why one person's 5 year survival rate differs so significantly from another without genetic testing, the follow on from that is that T supplementation may affect different individuals differently and we've not been doing it long enough to understand the consequences given the length of time it takes for the disease to manifest itself

so what I know is, that whilst my PCP may be comfortable prescribing it, my colleagues who are pretty switched on as academic physician / surgeon researchers and they're saying don't do it

Easy - $$$

More than a date. He left wife #2 and kids for her. And they've been living/training in Girona. It's 2003 all over again!

http://kourtneycompton.com/journal/

It's all just part of their rhetoric. Just like how if the topic of doping comes up, Bob and Christian talk as if it's a few bad apples that need to be outed.

No one will be convincing me anytime soon that the peloton is essentially clean. Not sure why anyone was ready to believe that.

All that testosterone must have some other side effects :)

Yeah, I hear she's growing a beard.

I have a question... I agree with you that the peleton is still far, far from clean, as are most pro sports. But why do Astana riders keep getting popped while most other teams manage to beat the tests (TD being a bit of an anomaly)? Are Astana just being much less subtle about it?

Why do US cyclists and triathletes continue to live and train in Girona? "I live and train in Girona" is a red flag.

---

"Human existence is based upon two pillars: Compassion and knowledge. Compassion without knowledge is ineffective; Knowledge without compassion is inhuman." Victor Weisskopf.

Low cost of living, nice weather, great roads and hills, respectful drivers. Is there a better place to train?

Because the paella is freakin' amazing. And so is the riding. And LA's penthouse pad is available cheap with the refrigerator still stocked up with butter. Seriously, though, the riding is insane. Costa Brava one way, Pyrenees the other. Whatever kind of terrain you want is within reach.

Let's see how long it takes for her to dump him if he gets tossed from the sport.

I'm in this same boat with you now. Test shows up with a positive hit, you did it. We've just learned too much about this from the LA saga to think otherwise any longer.

He's a LA wanna be, both on the bike and in his personal life apparently, so in no way would I put him the new generation category. He's just not as evil nor does he have the mental aptitude to pull it off. I think he just got a pass from the original LA USPS fall out because of his age and willingness to sing to investigators.

Throw in the recent history with Americans who lived and trained in Girona while using PED's and blood bags and Spain's lax attitudes when it comes to prosecuting athletes using PED's and blood bags.

Plenty of athletes (US and European) get good results in races without living and training in Girona.

---

"Human existence is based upon two pillars: Compassion and knowledge. Compassion without knowledge is ineffective; Knowledge without compassion is inhuman." Victor Weisskopf.

Business as usual:
https://twitter.com/...s/628554861865529344
@Vaughters: Selfishly, Id like to disappear, but that hurts quite a few good people. Therefore,Slipstream's owners(me too) have decided to push forward.

Vaughters said on Twitter today that the team will continue. So much for his word having meaning.

---

How does Danny Hart sit down with balls that big?

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How does Danny Hart sit down with balls that big?

Well, to be fair, Spain has anti-doping legislation, so doping is actually a criminal offence there (unlike in the US). And Operation Puerto was instrumental in cracking down on several dopers (Jan Ullrich among them) at a time when legislation wouldn't have allowed such actions in other countries.


Cheers,
malte

You don't understand the state of the sport then. Triathlon is a high end sport with nearly as much cost to play as golf with as much visibility as that sport in the local news now. I have seen triathletes bring a more than $10K triathlon bike to a race with less than 200 participants, with most participants riding road bikes, hybrids and off road bikes. I volunteered at another small local race a few years ago and a guy had his $9K ride stolen out of the transition area while he celebrated after he picked up his age group award. If people are dumping that much just to race in small local events, it is not a big leap to see people putting stuff into their bodies that is being advertised on TV every weekend and can be bought under the average workers pharmacy benefit for the cost of a co-pay.

Why does it matter what some folks spend their money on? You probably drive a fancy car. Some have big homes. Some have a fancy boat or airplane.
Enjoy what you earned, no reason to leave it to the kids.
.

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Kenny pointed it out above.....

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Chicago Cubs - 2016 WORLD SERIES Champions!!!!

"If ever the time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin." - Samuel Adams

Lame.

I'm not anti-Vaughters. I just prefer it that when people make bold, public claims that they actually follow through with them.

why should we listen to what you have to say? you don't even have an appendix ;-)

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

Well, to be fair, Spain dragged their heels for years and you never saw any tennis players or soccer players be prosecuted. Coincidentally, France wins the world cup in 1998 and Spain wins it in 2010.

NO one can be surprised by Vaughters' statement....

1) His "one positive and we walk away" declarations always rang as PR statements, not actual promises (to me, at least)

2) There are a lot of jobs, careers and families that he is responsible for now. Pretty hard to just fold your tent and walk away.

3) It is not his money that is making the decision. Cannondale, Garmin and his investor angel all have input on the decision (and more input than Vaughters in all likelihood).

---

Chicago Cubs - 2016 WORLD SERIES Champions!!!!

"If ever the time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin." - Samuel Adams

I am anti-Vaughters and it is lame. Let me make bold, assertive statements that strengthen my brand as an anti-doping figure, build my team around that brand and when its time to act on my statement I fold. As if he didn't know folding a team would hurt other people.

He's a hypocrite without a backbone and without ethics.

Let us say you are a 19/20 year old american kid that just got a pro tour contract. You need to move to Europe, possibly going there for the very first time. Do you go live in the city where a bunch of other americans, who have the same job and have made the same crazy changes in life live or do you go somewhere else? In Girona you have much more support from other riders, just imagine getting thrown into the pro tour and all the stress of training and racing, having a place where you are going to have lots of help getting things like electricity to your apartment, internet to your apartment, or even an apartment in general. It really is hard to blame an American cyclist from moving to Girona.

He wrote a check that he could not cash. Whether he actually really wants to follow through on it or not, we'll never know. But, surely Garmin and Cannondale aren't going to just shut down because of a pledge that JV made before they were even involved. Not to mention that you've got dozens of guys under contract who you can't just throw under the bus.

It was a lot of big talk from JV, but never very realistic should this exact scenario occur.

:) True, but it sure is one way to lose weight. But now the pulled hamstring has got me. I guess we both
need a wheel chair. :) Can I recover for Tahoe, we shall see. I asked my doctors if it would be okay to do an IM
2 months after surgery and they just all told me I was nuts. I said how about a 70.3 then. I still got strange looks.

I know my doctor talked to me about getting T after seeing my blood tests. I said it is illegal for racing. Plus,
the side effects are such that unless is was needed for live or death, no thanks. But, I have no doubt that
PLENTY around and in our AG use it! The docs clearly make money by getting folks to use, so they push it.

---

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

#2 and #3 I get, but he can personally remove himself, resign, and disappear. that is what makes him a loser.

ask your doctor if T grows dormant or slow growing cancers. if he doesn't know, ask him if it's worth his kickback to experiment on your body.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

Re the bolded portion. If you race in "big national races" and also do your local triathlon, should you have an extra, beater bike that you bring to the local race so it doesn't look like you are trying too hard? Is it ok with you if I ride the same bike in my local, 150 people doing it race, as I do in a WTC race?

I agree with your basic premise, that there are many AGers who are so caught up in beating others that they would cheat. Evidence suggests that there are many who have completely lost perspective when it comes to sport and racing. Bringing an expensive bike to a local race really doesn't seem like it is part of that evidence.

(And yes, I am the ass-hat that is going to be bringing my very nice bike to a local race in two weekends. Love that bike. I will still probably get beaten by many of the local studs.)

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----------------------------
Jason
None of the secrets of success will work unless you do.

While I wouldn't call him a "loser", I think that is a fair criticism.

That said, he has put a ton of his life's work into the team.....pretty damn hard to walk away from that.

---

Chicago Cubs - 2016 WORLD SERIES Champions!!!!

"If ever the time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin." - Samuel Adams

"what an AG triathlete can today take legally under a doctor's care to boost their performance"

maybe i misinterpreted this. what i "read" is that, yes, a doctor can legally prescribe stuff that will boost an athlete's performance. i see it all the time. and, by "legal" i take it to mean he won't get prosecuted for it under the criminal code.

now, if he meant "legally" as in you can use with impunity in competition, that would be a breathtaking naivete, especially for a coach.

i just hope that isn't what he meant.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

At best its incompetence, at worst its fraud.

Unlike the US, who ferociously go after the dopers in baseball and american football. Oh wait...

I'm not saying any country is perfect, but let's not start throwing stones here.


Cheers,
malte

Apples & Oranges.....MLB and the NFL are not signatories to the WADA code.

---

Chicago Cubs - 2016 WORLD SERIES Champions!!!!

"If ever the time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin." - Samuel Adams

I have my annual in a few weeks. I wonder if he will bring T up again. If I remember, I will ask him about how many folks ask for it.

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Oh my. So it's ok to dope in these sports? Are you aware that in Spain, doping in any sport, WADA signatory or not, is a criminal offense?
And how many tennis or soccer players have been busted for doping in other countries?


Cheers,
malte

Baseball and American Football at least are played within the boundaries of the country. The World Cup is not. But I get your point. I like to jab Spanish and French people a little about their respective wins. I actually rooted for Spain in 2010. It was a great squad. And, I'm not American.

No doubt. This is why it would be very hard to pass such a law in the US. Big money sports which have defacto doping have too much money to lobby against it.

If you could let me know where I said it was OK to dope in those sports, that would be great.

I simply pointed out that they are not signatories to the WADA code and therefore not subject to their testing regimens. You therefore can't really compare them to WADA signatories.

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Chicago Cubs - 2016 WORLD SERIES Champions!!!!

"If ever the time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin." - Samuel Adams

Hard...but more honest.

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http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

That's where I disagree. I think it's a huge leap. Like I said, the nature of being a dude is to buy ridiculously expensive and unnecessary gear, regardless of the activity. That's the norm: excess. I have a neighbor who spends much more than what your are describing above on freaking model trains for his basement. Tools, golf equipment, music equipment, camera equipment, guns, hunting stuff, camping gear, climbing gear, cars, boating, skiing, fishing, etc. Triathlon spending, even at the highest levels, is no big deal compared to many if not most of those hobbies on the list.

Taking in potentially dangerous drugs for such a small reward is a big leap and not the norm, at least the way I see it.

What I really want to know is HOW did Lance manage to make TD do it, again?