They cost that much 'cuz people are willing to pay that much. Supply and demand.

The prices folks are willing to pay for gadgets that offer only marginal improvements -- if any at all -- are just incredible. For example, is a Dura-Ace rear derailleur REALLY so much better than a 105 that it's three times the price? Do carbon-fiber aerobars work that much better than aluminum tubing? Of course not -- but enough people seem to think so and are willing to pay the price.

There is a very positive side to this situation. When I started cycling in the mid-80s, $1,500 used to buy you some of the really top end bikes. Now $1,500 is barely entry level for a lot of people, however, that $1,500 “entry-level” bike is still better than the top-end bike back in the 80s. So really there is nothing to complain about—unless having the newest cool thing is important to you. From a performance standpoint, you can still buy a darn fast bike for a reasonable amount of money. People who pay more than two grand are just doing it to be chic.



Chad

Well, there are a disproportionally high number of expensive bikes out there and vendors are ignoring the economic pressures on discretionary income at their peril. The number of 3,500 carbon Ultegra bikes at Interbike was absurd.

Only one manufacturer, Felt, was showing a mid $2000's Dura-Ace equipped tri bike (the new S22) with a carbon fork, seatpost and rear stay.

Felt is about the only ones who truly "Get It" in terms of where the market is headed. The number of $3000+ super bikes is far to high for the market with a lot of product undeliverable anyway. The industry would do well to stop wasting its time north of $3000. There are already enough strong players in that price category such as the P3C.

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Tom Demerly
The Tri Shop.com

Tom

As always, interesting comments.

1. The market for high end everything( cars, stereos, real-estate, TV's stc . .) continues to be growing much faster than everything else these days. For some reason the rich truely seem to be getting richer!

2. Another poster mentioned the trickling down of technology and performance - this has been going on for some time now and the mid priced bikes of today( say $2,000 or a bit less) are more or less the same bikes that were being ridden in the Tour de France and by top riders at Ironman Hawaii just 5 - 6 years ago.

3. Historically, the bike market has been slow to react to trends. Many companies keep blundering on doing things that really don't match up with what is going on out in the consumer marketplace.

4. If a new bike is not in the cards, I say look at the used market. If ebay is any barometer of what's available out there, there is a great choice of mid to high end bikes that are quite a bit less than what you would pay at retail for a brand new one.

Fleck

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Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

New stuff is crazy expensive. But if you know what you want/need (esp. the right size frame!) and are patient, you can build a killer bike for cheap. I bought a Kestrel 500sci frame with major cosmetic dings, sanded it myself, had a friend paint it, Kestrel sent me new decals, it looks new. I found a guy on the 'Net who just had to have DA 10 speed so I bought his 9 speed group, inc. FSA Team issue carbon cranks, for a song. Kestrel carbon drops and upgraded threadless aero fork, Profile carbon clip-on aeros, Corima carbon seatpost (I've got a really bad neck so love that carbon), older but stealth fast Zipp 500 wheels to race on, and Velocity Deep V to train on, and a near-new Profile Tri saddle that somebody didn't like, all for well under $1000 total. Last year I built up a used Kestrel Airfoil in a similar way but with Profile carbon integrated aerobars, couldn't ride it because of my neck, and doubled my money on ebay. So this bike ended up being free!

brother bonk

oh yeah - I paid retail for the bar tape and computer mount...

1. The market for high end everything( cars, stereos, real-estate, TV's stc . .) continues to be growing much faster than everything else these days. For some reason the rich truely seem to be getting richer!

I would guess middle class folks are the driving force behind the high end market. The number of expensive bikes I see at ironman and various century rides tells me that people are prepared to "treat" themselves at the expense of future savings. Come look at my garage for example.

People ask questions on this forum continually about which >$3000 bike to get, I don't think we're all richer. Just prepared to spend more to stroke our egos.

In a survey that I saw it said the average reader of Triathlete magazine had a household income of over US$150,000. That would explain why you see so many expensive bikes at races. Last week I did the Long Beach Triathlon, which is suppose to be a beginner's race and for the first time this season I saw more road bikes that tri-bikes at an event.

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Pasadena Tri Club

Yeah, there's some crazy expensive stuff out there, but at the same time, you can find some incredible deals on some very nice bikes in the $1500 range, particularly if you don't mind riding an aluminum frame or even an offbrand carbon frame.

RP

Now $1,500 is barely entry level for a lot of people, however, that $1,500 “entry-level” bike is still better than the top-end bike back in the 80s.

Define "better".....

Define "better".....

Ok,

In 1985-- you used down-tube shifters, now you have STI, Ergo, take your pick.

--your choice in frame materials was chrome-moly or chrome-moly. Aluminum was just coming on from Vitus, Trek, Cannondale, but it was not cheap. Carbon fibre was practically unheard of, except for a few pros who had special frames.

Wheels were heavier. In fact, bikes in general were heavier.

Cycling cleats were not as comfortable.

No clipless pedals in '85 unless you were Bernard Hinault.

Shifting was not as smooth.

Seven-speed freewheels were the norm. That means you had big jumps from cog to cog.

Tire quality as gone up, at least in terms of wear and puncture resistence.

Modern brakes are certainly more powerful than anything in '85.

Helmets were buckets and goofy looking.

The list goes on.

Chad

It's sort of like the gas prices... if people will pay it the price will stay there because it's what the market will bear.

All good points.

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Tom Demerly
The Tri Shop.com

You're giving bike industry WAY too much credit. NO ONE, from the manufacturing end to the retail end, adjusts prices based on demand--they use a fixed margin and price accordingly. The margin may vary 2-3%, but that's about it.
Big bike companies (Trek, Giant, etc) operate on a 22-25% on bikes, smaller companies, more, simply because of economies of scale.
Retailers shoot for 40%, less on high-end--because that's what's needed for Tom D to turn his lights on in the morning.
Demand may infuence what price points a dealer may carry, or a bike company may produce, but that's about it.

"n a survey that I saw it said the average reader of Triathlete magazine had a household income of over US$150,000."

Why do I have to be BOP at everything?

~Matt

And even more to the Felt point, I have noticed at our local tris here in UT that there are 5 F70/80/90s to every S22/S25. 5 S32s for every B2. They are not being ridden by the podium, but by the pack.

They have great affordable bikes for the entry level triathlete/road rider.

I picked my S25 up on clearance last fall and that was $1,300 for everything that could have possibly been the bikes fault, I will have to shoulder the blame for anything speed related going forward.

Cannondale R1000 was my purchase this summer and got that for $1,500 from a shop that couldn't sell it (nice to ride a 60). I have had it for a few k miles now and can't think of anything that I NEED to upgrade. Which is killing me! I even like the dern saddle (Poggio).

[reply]Only one manufacturer, Felt, was showing a mid $2000's Dura-Ace equipped tri bike (the new S22) with a carbon fork, seatpost and rear stay.
[/reply]

Well, we don't have carbon stays because we think they are detrimental, but a DuraAce Dual is $1900 and a DuraAce P2 SL is $2500. In general prices seem to be going up, just like the prices of everything else in this world. It's called inflation. On top of that, of course with a lot of frames now being carbon the average price of bikes may be moving up. but if you look apples to apples, prices for at least Cervelo have not gone up at all in the past several years. Take a Soloist Team, that frameset used to cost $1500 and now it costs $1200. Or a P2 SL, also $1200. A P3 SL was $3600 and now the P2C will be $3600.

And don't forget you are feeling the troubles in Motortown, there are plenty of areas in the US where people are shelling out $3000+ for a bike. for example, 22% of Bicycling readers intend to buy a bike that is $3000+, that's an enormous group.

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Gerard Vroomen
3T.bike
OPEN cycle

Did Felt go with Carbon Stay's this year on the S22?

"And don't forget you are feeling the troubles in Motortown,"

Good point, it's all relative. I can't imagine paying 300K for a 1200'ish sq ft home either, but some people are doing it. If they can afford that kinda dough for a house 3K for bike, ain't no thing.

~Matt

I got the S22 and a friend got the S32, at times I wish I would have saved my cash and got the S32. Not a whole lot of difference there, especially as freakin' slow as I am.

~Matt

As an example of just such an ebay deal, I just picked up a 2003 P3 for $1900 very nicely equipped. Best price I could find for a discounted 2004 was almost a $1000 more (after tax) at the 2 local Cervelo dealers. As much as I would like to support them, the ebay deal was just too good to pass up.

I sold the S25 to get the Cannondale (almost even swap), my plan now is to get a used 32 and some race wheels that I could use on both bikes, funny how few of the 32s you see on Ebay.

I certainly agree there have been changed...but that doesn't mean better in my definition.

The avg bikes times of nearly all the pro circuit and/or triathlon hasn't really changed much over the past 15 years.....

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What if the Hokey Pokey is what it is all about?

I agree with you on the wheels. I have a set of tubular Mavic Mach 2CD wheels that are very light. In fact, I rode these wheels to a 5:00 flat bike split at IMC in 1992. Bomb-proof to. I used to pound the crap out of these things in races and they are still good to go. I think I may get some new tires for them and put them back into service.

Fleck

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Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

I don't believe in carbon stays either; but I certainly don't enjoy Canadian companies that charge *more* for products in their own country...

From the cervelo webpage: Soloist Team Frameset Can$2199/1.172exchange = 1876$usd -->compared to 1500?

Dual Ultegra 10-Speed Can$2299/1.172= 1961$usd -->compared to 1900 for dura-ace?

P2SL Frameset Can$1799/1.172= 1534$usd -->compared to 1200?

yeah yeah, I've heard it all, supply and demand. Bigger market in the USA, believe me, I know the feeling. The big camera companies rip us off big time in Canada. Speaking of which (completely unrelated) I just saw on dpreview that KonicaMinolta is going to ceases all activities (including sales) in Canada. And to think, I was thinking about getting a Maxxum 5D...

Add on top of this federal and provincal taxes totalling 15%+ and your bikes are in a completely different price point than felts where I'm looking.

Now, if SRAM would get into road shifters, derailleurs and brakes, that might shake things up a little.

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Dick

Take everything I say with a grain of salt. I know nothing.

Where ya been man? That's exactly what all the buzz is about -- that's EXACTLY what they're doing.

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Some are born to move the world to live their fantasies...

https://triomultisport.com/
http://www.mjolnircycles.com/

But when is SRAM going to take them out from behind glass and put them on a bike?

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On SRAM...Not till 2007. Think of this year as developing buzz and probably trying to get a few adventurous companies to spec it OEM.

We can only hope. WOO!WOO!

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Dick

Take everything I say with a grain of salt. I know nothing.

I have sat a Felt B2 and my P3 next to eachother...ridden both...for me...Felt better start fixing shit...who cares they have Zipps...they need some decent welders, need to fis their slipping seat post and their horrible seat clamp system, kill the carbon rear end and do some serious work on finishing the frame better (cleaning slag and what not)...then maybe then can they get a real focus and really give Cervelo and some of the others a run...oh, they may want to give up BMX bikes too...they are really a laughing stock in that game.

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What if the Hokey Pokey is what it is all about?

Careful, Chip...Chad is a retrogrouch when it comes to equipment...he's still running an 8 speed Ultegra derailleur friction shifted over what, for him, is a bizarre 10spd cassette. He has 2nd generation Scott clip ons (the ones with the lime-greenish-yellowish pad holders) as well...and a host of other assorted frankenparts...

As for wheels...you may be right about older wheels being light...but I'll put any newer 1400g pair of clincher wheels up against a set of Record/Mavic Gel-280 wheels anyday of the week in terms of longevity...especially if the rider weighs over a buck-fifty...those old-school light wheels could be hazardous and they didn't last long at all...I ruined a set of 280 rims over a summer once...the 330s were a little better...but still...

Also...about the straight block...surely you aren't going to argue that a 12-17 or a 12-19(7spd) is a better option for the majority of riders out there than, say, a 12-21 9spd straight...no...for the average rider to cover the range of conditions out there without having to swap freewheels all the time that meant putting up with 2 and 3 tooth jumps...I'll keep my 11-23 9spd cassettes, thanks...

On the brakes...well, I'd argue the opposite...pads HAVEN'T gotten better than the old Matthauser...in fact, Kool-Stop's contemporary version of those (the salmon colored pads) that they make for all new brakes and pad-holders are widely accepted as the best out there...they are pretty much just Matthauser's formula made into modern shapes to fit modern brakes...on the other hand...virtually every actual mechanical analysis I've seen on dual-pivot brakes (some of them admittedly from the manufacturers..but there are others out there) will confirm the superiority of dual pivots (I think they speak in terms of leverage and modulation, but its been a while since I've read them).

Clipless pedals may have been around longer than Look's TdF winning model under BH...but it wasn't until Look released them to the public in 86 that clipless pedals, in any form, started turning up with any regularity at club rides. I don't recall many folks adopting them until around '88 or so...

Anyway...we could argue our retro grouch lost memories all night, I'm sure...(good-naturedly, of course!)...

I'll say this...I'll take a 2005 QR Kilo over my '85 Cannondale Black Lightning or '88 Centurion Ironman any day of the week...

What ever...but you are not cool if you did not have a Bridgestone RB1 or a Nishiki NFS Alfa (or Beta for that matter)

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What if the Hokey Pokey is what it is all about?

Why cant I find used Titanflex's.

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Just Triing
Triathlete since 9:56:39 AM EST Aug 20, 2006.
Be kind English is my 2nd language. My primary language is Dave it's a unique evolution of English.

ha ha ha me to ;-(


ha ha

Doesn't the exchange rate and value of the dollar factor in here somewhere?

Had the Nishiki...neon green, baby...traded the Centurion for it. Vetta TT saddle...Scott DH bars...and a serious man-crush on Souza...that fucker could fly back then...hell...what am I saying...he'd still crush me, run OR bike...I'm still just a wannabe, I suppose. ;-)

Define "better".....

Cycling cleats were not as comfortable Huh? Cleats not as comfy? What cleats? You mean clip pedals?



I owned a pair of Sidi Revolutions and now I own Genius 2’s. The newer shoes are superior in every way to the old ones.

No clipless pedals in '85 unless you were Bernard Hinault. Bernie was only the first to WIN the tour on them (Greg was in second) - though they were available before then.

Sure and adidas made some clipless pedals that you tightened with a clamp, but before LOOK, nobody made a design that that caught on in the mass market, nor had remotely close to the safe safety factor, i.e. your feet would actually come out in a crash.

Shifting was not as smooth. I think that shifting was MUCH smoother with 5 speed downtube friction levers...never any chattering. The mess didnt start till "index" shifting - then STI and Ergo - we just got more gears that are more finicky and harder to adjust.

So I guess you still ride with the old down-tube shifters since they are better? No? Hmm, maybe they are not so great after all. My ’87 Cannondale still has downtube shifters, but I have used STI and they are far better than having to reach to shift.

Seven-speed freewheels were the norm. That means you had big jumps from cog to cog. Not on a straight block...

----I think Brian covered this one quite well. And the next as well.

Modern brakes are certainly more powerful than anything in '85. - hmmm I think that PADS are better...but there sure are allot of single piviot brakes showing up again...

Helmets were buckets and goofy looking. - only by todays standards...

---Come on. My first Vetta weighed nearly a pound and looked like I was wearing a bowl. They looked goofy then and they look even more ridiculous now.



The most hilarious part of your post is the fact that you posted it under the moniker "Record10Carbon". If there was ever a bigger waste of money than Campy using carbon in its components short of sending a man to the moon, I'm not sure what it would be. I doubt anyone could tell the difference between the carbon versions of Campy and the cheaper versions if they were blindfolded.



If you really thought the old stuff was so great, why aren't you SuperRecord7Aluminum?



Chad

B & L bike has a $12,000 Serotta on the floor for sale. That is the most expensive price tag I have yet to see on a bike.

I had a $1500 dollar bike in the mid 80's and I still have it and it is as good as ever. Evolution affects everything, if you get down to the technical aspects cars today are better then cars from the past, but there is a lot more to being a good bike or a good car. I'll take that 80's bike over many of the same priced entry models out there today.

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Proud Founder of the Jamis Mafia- Daring to be different.