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New Tour tests of 2015 aero road bikes
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Given recent threads on the 2015 Cervelo S5, the Felt AR and the new Canyon Aeroad CF SLX, I'm amazed nobody has picked up on the latest aero road bike tests by Tour Magazine. While the full analysis is available in the latest Tour International issue, the raw drag plots using the Tour half-mannequin are openly accessible online. I'm aware that people have pointed out caveats to the Tour testing protocol but it's still the best – indeed only – independent comparative data we have on these new models. IMO even if there are failings they should be applauded for their work.

A few Clif notes:
- With the same Zipp 404 wheel set up it is pretty much a wash between the S5, the AR FRD and the Canyon Aeroad (each with their own, sometimes proprietary aero bar)
- Lower range models from each manufacturer were also tested, with wheelsets they came with and then with Swiss Side Hadrons. Looking through the results for models with identical frame forms (e.g. the Felts) suggests that the Hadrons are effectively as aero the Zipp 404s.
- Negligible difference between the AR FRD with 404s and aero handlebar vs AR3 with Hadrons and standard handlebar; does the aero handlebar have little benefit, or a failing in the Tour testing protocol?
- Cervelo S5 with HED Jet 6 Plus SCT faster across almost all yaws (including zero) than with the 404s. Would the HEDs have the same effect on the Felt and Canyon? Are the HEDs currently the fastest wheels at 60 mm depth?
Last edited by: duncan: Jan 25, 15 12:38
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Re: New Tour tests of 2015 aero road bikes [duncan] [ In reply to ]
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Thanx for the link to the data site .. oSo >>

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the s u r f b o a r d of the K u r p f a l z is the r o a d b i k e .. oSo >>
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Re: New Tour tests of 2015 aero road bikes [duncan] [ In reply to ]
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Pretty cool that very aero road bikes are now basically commodity items - no longer the sole domain of Cervelo and Zipp, etc.

You're right that the HED data kind of jumps out at you, and you're right it'd be good to see that corroborated on a few more frames.
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Re: New Tour tests of 2015 aero road bikes [duncan] [ In reply to ]
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Hm, the data is cwA at yaw. Better would be watt at speed with yaw ..

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Re: New Tour tests of 2015 aero road bikes [sausskross] [ In reply to ]
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Ya, what is the conversion from cwa to watts at 30mph?

It's not exactly a secret that HED wheels perform better at higher yaw angles. I don't think they win any points in the cool department vs. Zipp 404's (carbon fairing over an AL rim.)
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Re: New Tour tests of 2015 aero road bikes [sausskross] [ In reply to ]
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.. o.k. should be something about 3 to 5 Watt difference at 10m/s for 0,01 cwA change within 20°C, 1000mbar !?

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Last edited by: sausskross: Jan 26, 15 6:07
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Re: New Tour tests of 2015 aero road bikes [sausskross] [ In reply to ]
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Hm, the data is cwA at yaw. Better would be watt at speed with yaw ..

PLEASE GAWD, NOOOO!!!!!

Learn to think in CdA. It's the only correct way to present aero data. If you know the CdA delta from one configuration to another, you can quickly evaluate how much the total drag savings was (in %).

W/speed is much less useful. What if you ride slower (or faster)? What if you are at altitude? What if it is hot (or cold)?

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Re: New Tour tests of 2015 aero road bikes [rruff] [ In reply to ]
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You are right, but you know, I'm a rider ;-)

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the s u r f b o a r d of the K u r p f a l z is the r o a d b i k e .. oSo >>
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Re: New Tour tests of 2015 aero road bikes [sausskross] [ In reply to ]
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sausskross wrote:
Hm, the data is cwA at yaw. Better would be watt at speed with yaw ..

CdA is the best way to present that data.
.005cda ~= 5watts

easy to convert in your head



Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter
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Re: New Tour tests of 2015 aero road bikes [jackmott] [ In reply to ]
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Thanx jackmott, that is exactly what my head wanted, a fast estimation of differences. As long as all riders are in the same race the conditions are fixed without the speed and their use of energy ..

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the s u r f b o a r d of the K u r p f a l z is the r o a d b i k e .. oSo >>
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Re: New Tour tests of 2015 aero road bikes [jackmott] [ In reply to ]
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Re: New Tour tests of 2015 aero road bikes [rruff] [ In reply to ]
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1. Swiss Hadron wheels did pretty well. Very surprising to me.
2. Hed Jet 6 plus! Clear winner.
3. Buy a Cervelo S5 or Felt AR
Last edited by: Nick B: Jan 25, 15 15:43
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Re: New Tour tests of 2015 aero road bikes [duncan] [ In reply to ]
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Looking through the results for models with identical frame forms (e.g. the Felts) suggests that the Hadrons are effectively as aero the Zipp 404s.

Look at the Cervelo, Giant, and Merida charts. The Hadrons were significantly higher drag.

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Re: New Tour tests of 2015 aero road bikes [rruff] [ In reply to ]
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rruff wrote:
Looking through the results for models with identical frame forms (e.g. the Felts) suggests that the Hadrons are effectively as aero the Zipp 404s.

Look at the Cervelo, Giant, and Merida charts. The Hadrons were significantly higher drag.

Cervelo S2 vs S5. The Hadrons seem to live up to their own claims of being as fast as a Zipp 404. *although a bit slower at lower yaw.
Last edited by: Nick B: Jan 25, 15 15:43
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Re: New Tour tests of 2015 aero road bikes [sausskross] [ In reply to ]
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sausskross wrote:
the conditions are fixed without the speed and their use of energy ..

Until the moment comes to win!



Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter
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Re: New Tour tests of 2015 aero road bikes [jackmott] [ In reply to ]
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Sounds like a sprinter ;-)

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the s u r f b o a r d of the K u r p f a l z is the r o a d b i k e .. oSo >>
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Re: New Tour tests of 2015 aero road bikes [sausskross] [ In reply to ]
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sausskross wrote:
Sounds like a sprinter ;-)

Yes, but applies to anyone aiming to win. At some point you take off on your own. I just have to wait till the last moment unfortunately :(



Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter
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Re: New Tour tests of 2015 aero road bikes [jackmott] [ In reply to ]
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A sprinter saying thank you behind the finish line first after his win is not so bad and means the ride was a little bit flat but not boring fortunately ..

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the s u r f b o a r d of the K u r p f a l z is the r o a d b i k e .. oSo >>
Last edited by: sausskross: Jan 25, 15 16:14
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Re: New Tour tests of 2015 aero road bikes [rruff] [ In reply to ]
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Re: New Tour tests of 2015 aero road bikes [Nick B] [ In reply to ]
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Cervelo S2 vs S5.

Doh! Sorry... different frames.

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Re: New Tour tests of 2015 aero road bikes [duncan] [ In reply to ]
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Surprised we didn't see the Scott Foil tested.
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Re: New Tour tests of 2015 aero road bikes [jjabr] [ In reply to ]
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jjabr wrote:
Surprised we didn't see the Scott Foil tested.

This was a test of aero road bikes.

oooo burn!

But really, the foil, trek madone, R5 etc are really a different category of semi-aero road.

Which is a cool category, just not this one.



Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter
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Re: New Tour tests of 2015 aero road bikes [jackmott] [ In reply to ]
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maybe a dumb question, why is the CDA so low?….I am assuming "CWA" means CDA.

Is it lack of rotation? Or perfectly smooth Dummy? Or perhaps lack of helmet?

Just curious, I don't think Cervelo got super low numbers like that with the Zabreiski dummy in TT.

Maurice
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Re: New Tour tests of 2015 aero road bikes [mauricemaher] [ In reply to ]
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Re: New Tour tests of 2015 aero road bikes [jackmott] [ In reply to ]
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That would make sense according to my about average understanding of aerodynamics, without arms you might think the bar would have more importance then as it represents cleaner flow at the front?

I guess it makes sense to test that way as it is repeatable compared to an actual person peddling and hoping for the same position (as seen in some other tests)

I'll leave that to the you and the other "above average aero guys"

(edit: maybe need some pics, and Herbert to translate ;-)

Maurice
Last edited by: mauricemaher: Jan 25, 15 18:04
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Re: New Tour tests of 2015 aero road bikes [jackmott] [ In reply to ]
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Is tour the one that uses a lower-body dummy? That might explain it.

Yes. It's amazing how little drag gets added with a torso, head, and arms.

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Re: New Tour tests of 2015 aero road bikes [mauricemaher] [ In reply to ]
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You definitely do not want a live human on the bike for a test like this.

A full dummy would be better, but this is really good.



mauricemaher wrote:
That would make sense according to my about average understanding of aerodynamics, without arms you might think the bar would have more importance then as it represents cleaner flow at the front?

I guess it makes sense to test that way as it is repeatable compared to an actual person peddling and hoping for the same position (as seen in some other tests)

I'll leave that to the you and the other "above average aero guys"

(edit: maybe need some pics, and Herbert to translate ;-)

Maurice



Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter
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Re: New Tour tests of 2015 aero road bikes [jackmott] [ In reply to ]
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This data is both fascinating and terrifying as it's going to take forever to digitise it.
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Re: New Tour tests of 2015 aero road bikes [cyclenutnz] [ In reply to ]
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cyclenutnz wrote:
This data is both fascinating and terrifying as it's going to take forever to digitise it.

I was thinking the same thing about archiving it.
But digitizing it is worse



Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter
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Re: New Tour tests of 2015 aero road bikes [jackmott] [ In reply to ]
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There's still a whole lot of things wrong with Tour's testing approach, but it does show the S5 is one fast mofo. Which is fairly accurate
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Re: New Tour tests of 2015 aero road bikes [Dunbar] [ In reply to ]
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Dunbar wrote:

It's not exactly a secret that HED wheels perform better at higher yaw angles. I don't think they win any points in the cool department vs. Zipp 404's (carbon fairing over an AL rim.)


Right, but how many expected the HEDs to perform so much better at zero yaw, too?* I know Cervelo mentioned their choice of the Jet Plus wheels was due to the wider rim track shaping the tyre better for aerodynamics. Anyway, if they're not "cool" enough for you there's always the Stingers.

*And that despite being 28 mm wide
Last edited by: duncan: Jan 25, 15 22:13
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Re: New Tour tests of 2015 aero road bikes [jjabr] [ In reply to ]
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jjabr wrote:
Surprised we didn't see the Scott Foil tested.

They've tested the Foil before.
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Re: New Tour tests of 2015 aero road bikes [jackmott] [ In reply to ]
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jackmott wrote:
do we know if the zipp 404 were clinchers with the same tire on them?

Always clinchers mounted with the Continental GP 4000 S. These guys are detail oriented. If you look at the Felt data you will see that they even tested the ARD with the OEM tyres (Vittoria Diamante) and the Contis for comparison. If you want more info it's worth paying the few dollars for the English language Tour International issue for their iPhone/iPad etc. reader.
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Re: New Tour tests of 2015 aero road bikes [duncan] [ In reply to ]
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They've tested the Foil before.


Maybe at that time, the semi aero road bike category was born ..

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the s u r f b o a r d of the K u r p f a l z is the r o a d b i k e .. oSo >>
Last edited by: sausskross: Jan 25, 15 22:17
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Re: New Tour tests of 2015 aero road bikes [duncan] [ In reply to ]
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duncan wrote:
Right, but how many expected the HEDs to perform so much better at zero yaw, too?* I know Cervelo mentioned their choice of the Jet Plus wheels was due to the wider rim track shaping the tyre better for aerodynamics. Anyway, if they're not "cool" enough for you there's always the Stingers.

I don't know if I'd say they perform lots better at low yaw. I'd say slightly better at certain data points on the graph. And it's not me who's saying carbon fairings on aluminum rims aren't cool. Roadies have a strong preference for full carbon clinchers these days. The HED Stingers look like they are offered only as tubulars.
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Re: New Tour tests of 2015 aero road bikes [rruff] [ In reply to ]
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The data shows another list. Some companies claim what they believe, some what they measured, some what they are engineering ..

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the s u r f b o a r d of the K u r p f a l z is the r o a d b i k e .. oSo >>
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Re: New Tour tests of 2015 aero road bikes [duncan] [ In reply to ]
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duncan wrote:
Looking through the results for models with identical frame forms (e.g. the Felts) suggests that the Hadrons are effectively as aero the Zipp 404s.

That's what the German text says - no statistically-significant measured difference between these two wheels.

PS: The tied-for fastest Canyon setup - the Swiss Side - was without the aero handlebar. The 7.0 comes with alu round bars.

ZONE3 - We Last Longer
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Re: New Tour tests of 2015 aero road bikes [jackmott] [ In reply to ]
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jackmott wrote:
Is tour the one that uses a lower-body dummy? That might explain it.
Legs and hips but no torso and head?

"Beindummy" means leg-dummy, so yes.

ZONE3 - We Last Longer
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Re: New Tour tests of 2015 aero road bikes [tessartype] [ In reply to ]
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tessartype wrote:
jackmott wrote:
Is tour the one that uses a lower-body dummy? That might explain it.
Legs and hips but no torso and head?


"Beindummy" means leg-dummy, so yes.

Right, and one question is how significant are the bike-rider interactions that are missed because of this, for instance what Cervelo claim to optimize with their "AeroZone" approach?
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Re: New Tour tests of 2015 aero road bikes [tessartype] [ In reply to ]
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tessartype wrote:
PS: The tied-for fastest Canyon setup - the Swiss Side - was without the aero handlebar. The 7.0 comes with alu round bars.

Good point. On the Felt comparison one also has 404 + aero handlebar vs Swiss Side + round handlebar. Suggests a few possibilities:
1) Compared to the 404s the Hadrons reduce drag enough to compensate for the increased drag of the round handlebars
2) Aero handlebars do not reduce drag significantly compared to round handlebars
3) The drag reduction offered by the aero road handlebars is not picked out by the Tour testing protocol (e.g. because it does not fully account for bike-rider interactions)
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Re: New Tour tests of 2015 aero road bikes [justkeepedaling] [ In reply to ]
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justkeepedaling wrote:
There's still a whole lot of things wrong with Tour's testing approach, but it does show the S5 is one fast mofo. Which is fairly accurate

But harder to evaluate whether it is significantly faster than the competitors or whether some of them have caught up...
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Re: New Tour tests of 2015 aero road bikes [duncan] [ In reply to ]
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duncan wrote:
tessartype wrote:
jackmott wrote:
Is tour the one that uses a lower-body dummy? That might explain it.
Legs and hips but no torso and head?


"Beindummy" means leg-dummy, so yes.


Right, and one question is how significant are the bike-rider interactions that are missed because of this, for instance what Cervelo claim to optimize with their "AeroZone" approach?

With the exception of the hands on the bars, what other upper body part is within 10cm of the top of the frame (on a road-bike, at least)? Seems to me like the upper body is too far for frame design to make a difference, though testing with a full dummy might just give us a better scale on the effects.

ZONE3 - We Last Longer
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Re: New Tour tests of 2015 aero road bikes [tessartype] [ In reply to ]
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With the exception of the hands on the bars, what other upper body part is within 10cm of the top of the frame (on a road-bike, at least)?

I agree... even the arms and hands are outside the "zone".

Tour chooses the leg dummy so they can include the important interactions while eliminating sources of error in positioning the rest of the body. The dummy's legs move also.

Last edited by: rruff: Jan 26, 15 7:07
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Re: New Tour tests of 2015 aero road bikes [Dunbar] [ In reply to ]
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Re: New Tour tests of 2015 aero road bikes [duncan] [ In reply to ]
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Thanks for the link! I took away two things from this:
1. The Swiss Side Hadrons are, basically, identical to 404FCs..... but with aluminum brake tracks :)
2. I think there might be a little bit of "voodoo" with how rims interact with frames. I find it interesting that the Jet+ was also faster than the 404/Swiss at 0 yaw. I honestly never would've guessed that.
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Re: New Tour tests of 2015 aero road bikes [GreenPlease] [ In reply to ]
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I can buy it as my experience is the 4000s does not play well with the 808fc
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Re: New Tour tests of 2015 aero road bikes [GreenPlease] [ In reply to ]
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GreenPlease wrote:
1. The Swiss Side Hadrons are, basically, identical to 404FCs..... but with aluminum brake tracks :)

Worth noting that the lack of a well in the rim bed of the Hadrons can be limiting for tyre choice. Even with loose tyres you still need to have good technique and strong hands to deal with a flat.

Would like to get a feel for the effect on rolling resistance of putting tyres on such massive rims as the Jet+, there may be tradeoffs here.
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Re: New Tour tests of 2015 aero road bikes [jackmott] [ In reply to ]
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That's funny and so true.

I am pretty much a road guy and love my Hed Jets, but agree most in that profile go full carbon. The HEDs take an intellectual leap that you are choosing function over form and perhaps not using the "latest" for some.

I was more than comfortable giving up a few grams to save money, and also have more consistent braking by keeping an aluminum brake surface.

J
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Re: New Tour tests of 2015 aero road bikes [tessartype] [ In reply to ]
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tessartype wrote:
duncan wrote:
Looking through the results for models with identical frame forms (e.g. the Felts) suggests that the Hadrons are effectively as aero the Zipp 404s.


That's what the German text says - no statistically-significant measured difference between these two wheels.

It doesn't surprise me. If you believe Boyd and November Bicycles their wheels are within 1-2w of the Zipp 404 in the wind tunnel.
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Re: New Tour tests of 2015 aero road bikes [Hoshie99] [ In reply to ]
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Anyone that values looks over function contributes to the insane prices of wheels. I'll take a heavier, more functional wheel anyday

Make Inside Out Sports your next online tri shop! http://www.insideoutsports.com/
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Re: New Tour tests of 2015 aero road bikes [BryanD] [ In reply to ]
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BryanD wrote:
Anyone that values looks over function contributes to the insane prices of wheels. I'll take a heavier, more functional wheel anyday

To add to this, the aluminum rim, Bontrager Aura, is within 0.5-1w of its full carbon D3 counterpart and can be found for <500$.

Aluminum brake tracks for teh win.
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Re: New Tour tests of 2015 aero road bikes [rruff] [ In reply to ]
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How close are these aero road bikes getting to tri bikes time wise?
Last edited by: slow123: Jan 26, 15 16:21
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Re: New Tour tests of 2015 aero road bikes [slow123] [ In reply to ]
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slow123 wrote:
How close are these aero road bikes getting to tri bikes time wise?

the frames alone are basically identical.

drop bars are a 20 to 60 second per 40k penalty though.

and then whether the road bike can support your ideal TT position and still handle well, is the main concern.

But if you can get in your ideal position on an S5, and put an aero cockpit on it, you are basically on a p5



Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter
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Re: New Tour tests of 2015 aero road bikes [jackmott] [ In reply to ]
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jackmott wrote:


But if you can get in your ideal position on an S5, and put an aero cockpit on it, you are basically on a p5

Hi! :-)

http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/
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Re: New Tour tests of 2015 aero road bikes [Nick B] [ In reply to ]
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Nick B wrote:
BryanD wrote:
Anyone that values looks over function contributes to the insane prices of wheels. I'll take a heavier, more functional wheel anyday


To add to this, the aluminum rim, Bontrager Aura, is within 0.5-1w of its full carbon D3 counterpart and can be found for <500$.

Aluminum brake tracks for teh win.

Big time...

http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/
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Re: New Tour tests of 2015 aero road bikes [slow123] [ In reply to ]
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How close are these aero road bikes getting to tri bikes time wise?

They're pretty close if you set them up with TT parts.

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Re: New Tour tests of 2015 aero road bikes [Dunbar] [ In reply to ]
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Roadies have a strong preference for full carbon clinchers these days.

? Nobody I know unless they have money to burn. Full carbon *tubulars* for racing on the other hand...

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Re: New Tour tests of 2015 aero road bikes [rruff] [ In reply to ]
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If you're going to deal with crappy braking, they might as well be light?

/kj

http://kjmcawesome.tumblr.com/
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Re: New Tour tests of 2015 aero road bikes [jackmott] [ In reply to ]
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As a way of unwinding after racing tonight* I digitised a few curves
Note that the Giant and Felt have Di2 while the other two have mech.
I guess the consolation for Peter Sagan is that his new bike is much faster than the old one (as is the helmet)


Bit surprised at Cervelo not ruling the near zero yaw points, that's normally their domain.


*yes, numbers are relaxing for me
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Re: New Tour tests of 2015 aero road bikes [cyclenutnz] [ In reply to ]
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cyclenutnz wrote:
As a way of unwinding after racing tonight* I digitised a few curves

Interesting. Can you put the Canyon on there too?

cyclenutnz wrote:
Bit surprised at Cervelo not ruling the near zero yaw points, that's normally their domain.

Maybe that's the consequence of fattening up the head- and downtubes to increase stiffness.
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Re: New Tour tests of 2015 aero road bikes [jackmott] [ In reply to ]
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jackmott wrote:
jjabr wrote:
Surprised we didn't see the Scott Foil tested.


This was a test of aero road bikes.

oooo burn!

But really, the foil, trek madone, R5 etc are really a different category of semi-aero road.

Which is a cool category, just not this one.

curious to your input- what is the purpose of the semi-aero then? If you were choosing a roadie, depending on the geography where you ride, wouldnt you only choose an aero or light bike? is the semi-aero simply the 'first step' to the current generation aero bikes?

Ps- i have a foil and i love how that thing sprints!
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Re: New Tour tests of 2015 aero road bikes [duncan] [ In reply to ]
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So its not about the bike... its about the rider...

-- Aaron Davidson
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Re: New Tour tests of 2015 aero road bikes [cyclenutnz] [ In reply to ]
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Do you know what the delta was between the s2/3 and s5. I don't have the raw data. I know Damon said if they were set up identically he said it was around .005 CdA.



Heath Dotson
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Re: New Tour tests of 2015 aero road bikes [Nick B] [ In reply to ]
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Swissside Hadrons being the aero equal to the Zipp 404s comes as no surprise to me. I used to own Zipp 404 FCs but made the switch to Hadrons last year when I was looking for an 11 speed compatible wheelset. I have been very happy with the Hadrons. Weight is only slightly higher than the 404s and I really like having aluminum brake tracks. The Zipps seem to be better built (they better be given they are 2.5x more expensive) and are quiet versus the loud rushing noise that the Hadrons make. If price were no object I would probably be back on ZIPPs, but this would be for vanity reasons rather than performance reasons - nothing wrong with that.
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Re: New Tour tests of 2015 aero road bikes [coates_hbk] [ In reply to ]
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Well if you believe that you fully aero bikes aren't stiff enough or comfy enough, then a semi aero bike makes sense.

If you can't get a fully aero road bike down to the minimum weight limit, and you tend to make your move on big climbs, then a semi aero frame might make sense.

If you just like having a light bike for the fun of it, then an semi-aero bike makes sense.

If I had tour de france talent, and was racing a mountain stage, I might look and see whether the R5 would let me run deeper wheels at the weight limit and be overall faster than the S5 with shallow wheels.

semi aero bikes are usually cheaper than their full aero counterparts. An R3 is a lot cheaper than an s5


coates_hbk wrote:
curious to your input- what is the purpose of the semi-aero then? If you were choosing a roadie, depending on the geography where you ride, wouldnt you only choose an aero or light bike? is the semi-aero simply the 'first step' to the current generation aero bikes?

Ps- i have a foil and i love how that thing sprints!



Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter
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Re: New Tour tests of 2015 aero road bikes [aarondavidson] [ In reply to ]
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aarondavidson wrote:
So its not about the bike... its about the rider...

It is about both.
Probably 98% rider in a road race.
or 95% if you include tires. =)



Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter
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Re: New Tour tests of 2015 aero road bikes [duncan] [ In reply to ]
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duncan wrote:
Maybe that's the consequence of fattening up the head- and downtubes to increase stiffness.

Or of having mechanical cables instead of di2?
Though I think difference would be minimal with that handlebar



Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter
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Re: New Tour tests of 2015 aero road bikes [kjmcawesome] [ In reply to ]
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If you're going to deal with crappy braking, they might as well be light?

Yep, and expensive brake pads that work by *melting*.

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Re: New Tour tests of 2015 aero road bikes [rruff] [ In reply to ]
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rruff wrote:
If you're going to deal with crappy braking, they might as well be light?

Yep, and expensive brake pads that work by *melting*.

I really wanted ultra light carbon tubies for a couple NRC races last year.
#mountaintopfinish



Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter
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Re: New Tour tests of 2015 aero road bikes [rruff] [ In reply to ]
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rruff wrote:
If you're going to deal with crappy braking, they might as well be light?

Yep, and expensive brake pads that work by *melting*.

I really wanted ultra light carbon tubies for a couple NRC races last year.
#mountaintopfinish



Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter
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Re: New Tour tests of 2015 aero road bikes [jackmott] [ In reply to ]
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jackmott wrote:
If I had tour de france talent, and was racing a mountain stage, I might look and see whether the R5 would let me run deeper wheels at the weight limit and be overall faster than the S5 with shallow wheels.

Except that if you had tour de france talent, when you are making a move in the mountains, you are going close to 20 mph, so maybe even being over the weight limit with a S5 with deep wheels is still faster. Which makes sense because they are all attacking in the big ring, or not when Shleck's chain fell off when he had to shift into it. TDF level talent is scary.
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Re: New Tour tests of 2015 aero road bikes [chaparral] [ In reply to ]
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Yes, it would need to be a steep mountain.
Might also make sense in the mountains to run a shallow rear deep front, if there are no technical descents or low wind on the day.

I've seen that done in some domestic pro races.

These would all be very very fine hairs we would be splitting though

chaparral wrote:
Except that if you had tour de france talent, when you are making a move in the mountains, you are going close to 20 mph, so maybe even being over the weight limit with a S5 with deep wheels is still faster. Which makes sense because they are all attacking in the big ring, or not when Shleck's chain fell off when he had to shift into it. TDF level talent is scary.



Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter
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Re: New Tour tests of 2015 aero road bikes [rruff] [ In reply to ]
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I will never forget the smell of melted brake pads on a set of carbon clinchers.

Make Inside Out Sports your next online tri shop! http://www.insideoutsports.com/
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Re: New Tour tests of 2015 aero road bikes [Ex-cyclist] [ In reply to ]
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Ex-cyclist wrote:
Do you know what the delta was between the s2/3 and s5. I don't have the raw data. I know Damon said if they were set up identically he said it was around .005 CdA.


Unsurprisingly that was one of the first data sets I digitised



If I apply a symmetrical distribution, centred on 8deg and covering the full sweep it yields a weighted average difference of 0.0045. Obviously wheels are different but other bikes show them to be very close in performance.
It would appear that, unlike many in the industry, Damon doesn't just make numbers up. Also gives more credibility to this test.




Last edited by: cyclenutnz: Jan 27, 15 12:08
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Re: New Tour tests of 2015 aero road bikes [jackmott] [ In reply to ]
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jackmott wrote:
duncan wrote:

Maybe that's the consequence of fattening up the head- and downtubes to increase stiffness.


Or of having mechanical cables instead of di2?
Though I think difference would be minimal with that handlebar

According to Felt the mechanical cables add 7w@25mph on the AR. On the AR that's with the cables running into the downtube vs. behind the stem with electronic. The S5 runs the derailleur cables behind the stem which is more aero. But still, I'd bet di2 S5 saves at least 2-3w at 30mph. I believe Superdave said the drag of cable housing is proportional to the length of cable housing exposed to the wind.
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Re: New Tour tests of 2015 aero road bikes [jackmott] [ In reply to ]
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I see! Well the foil is very bloody stiff. I understand its one of the lesser of the aero road bikes out there, but gee she sprints really nicely
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Re: New Tour tests of 2015 aero road bikes [Dunbar] [ In reply to ]
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Dunbar wrote:
jackmott wrote:
duncan wrote:

Maybe that's the consequence of fattening up the head- and downtubes to increase stiffness.


Or of having mechanical cables instead of di2?
Though I think difference would be minimal with that handlebar


According to Felt the mechanical cables add 7w@25mph on the AR. On the AR that's with the cables running into the downtube vs. behind the stem with electronic. The S5 runs the derailleur cables behind the stem which is more aero. But still, I'd bet di2 S5 saves at least 2-3w at 30mph. I believe Superdave said the drag of cable housing is proportional to the length of cable housing exposed to the wind.


I'm working on getting 2-3 watts saved on my Di2 set up with a little drillium.


-SD

https://www.kickstarter.com/...bike-for-the-new-era
Last edited by: SuperDave: Jan 27, 15 23:31
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Re: New Tour tests of 2015 aero road bikes [jackmott] [ In reply to ]
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jackmott wrote:
Well if you believe that you fully aero bikes aren't stiff enough or comfy enough, then a semi aero bike makes sense.

If you can't get a fully aero road bike down to the minimum weight limit, and you tend to make your move on big climbs, then a semi aero frame might make sense.

If you just like having a light bike for the fun of it, then an semi-aero bike makes sense.

If I had tour de france talent, and was racing a mountain stage, I might look and see whether the R5 would let me run deeper wheels at the weight limit and be overall faster than the S5 with shallow wheels.

semi aero bikes are usually cheaper than their full aero counterparts. An R3 is a lot cheaper than an s5


coates_hbk wrote:

curious to your input- what is the purpose of the semi-aero then? If you were choosing a roadie, depending on the geography where you ride, wouldnt you only choose an aero or light bike? is the semi-aero simply the 'first step' to the current generation aero bikes?

Ps- i have a foil and i love how that thing sprints!

But a stock AR FRD is already 6.8kg and it only needs a swap to GP4000 to make it fastest among those tested. So if you chose an R5, which wheel would you use to bridge the delta between the frames?

-SD
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Re: New Tour tests of 2015 aero road bikes [cyclenutnz] [ In reply to ]
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cyclenutnz wrote:
Ex-cyclist wrote:
Do you know what the delta was between the s2/3 and s5. I don't have the raw data. I know Damon said if they were set up identically he said it was around .005 CdA.


Unsurprisingly that was one of the first data sets I digitised



If I apply a symmetrical distribution, centred on 8deg and covering the full sweep it yields a weighted average difference of 0.0045. Obviously wheels are different but other bikes show them to be very close in performance.
It would appear that, unlike many in the industry, Damon doesn't just make numbers up. Also gives more credibility to this test.

Except that in the Tour test the S2 had standard round bars and the S5 had the new Cervelo aero road bar, while Damon was talking about the difference only from changing frame and forks. So again this suggests that either the Hadrons are faster than the 404s, or the Tour tests are failing to identify a significant improvement from the aero road bars.
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Re: New Tour tests of 2015 aero road bikes [duncan] [ In reply to ]
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duncan wrote:
Except that in the Tour test the S2 had standard round bars and the S5 had the new Cervelo aero road bar, while Damon was talking about the difference only from changing frame and forks. So again this suggests that either the Hadrons are faster than the 404s, or the Tour tests are failing to identify a significant improvement from the aero road bars.

They haven't shown a big advantage for any of the aero road bars. Perhaps the effect is lost in the turbulence created by the pedalling dummy. Though that in itself could be very informative.
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Re: New Tour tests of 2015 aero road bikes [cyclenutnz] [ In reply to ]
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cyclenutnz wrote:

If I apply a symmetrical distribution, centred on 8deg and covering the full sweep it yields a weighted average difference of 0.0045. Obviously wheels are different but other bikes show them to be very close in performance.
It would appear that, unlike many in the industry, Damon doesn't just make numbers up. Also gives more credibility to this test.

Is that a gaussian centered on 8deg? Can you post a pic of the distribution?

http://cds-0.blogspot.com
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Re: New Tour tests of 2015 aero road bikes [cyclenutnz] [ In reply to ]
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cyclenutnz wrote:
duncan wrote:
They haven't shown a big advantage for any of the aero road bars. Perhaps the effect is lost in the turbulence created by the pedalling dummy. Though that in itself could be very informative.

If you look at the AR FRD (aero bar) vs AR3 (round bar) there is a difference below about 15 degrees of yaw. Not a huge difference but a few watts. It's hard to say how much of that is the aero bar and how much was electronic vs. mechanical cable routing. I do wish Tour would have used the Zipp 404 on both the low cost and high end version of the bikes as a control.
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Re: New Tour tests of 2015 aero road bikes [cyclenutnz] [ In reply to ]
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cyclenutnz wrote:
GreenPlease wrote:
1. The Swiss Side Hadrons are, basically, identical to 404FCs..... but with aluminum brake tracks :)

Worth noting that the lack of a well in the rim bed of the Hadrons can be limiting for tyre choice. Even with loose tyres you still need to have good technique and strong hands to deal with a flat.

Would like to get a feel for the effect on rolling resistance of putting tyres on such massive rims as the Jet+, there may be tradeoffs here.

In theory the wider rim should result in a more circular contact patch. This should also reduce Crr because the casing flexes less. I say "in theory" because people like Tom Arndt (might have misspelled that) haven't seen the reduction in Crr you might expect. This also means there is no increase in Crr for the glass half crowd.
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Re: New Tour tests of 2015 aero road bikes [grumpier.mike] [ In reply to ]
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grumpier.mike wrote:
In theory the wider rim should result in a more circular contact patch. This should also reduce Crr because the casing flexes less. I say "in theory" because people like Tom Arndt (might have misspelled that) haven't seen the reduction in Crr you might expect. This also means there is no increase in Crr for the glass half crowd.

For a while I was considering lacing a 20 and 23mm rim side by side so I could remove hub/spoke effects from testing. Decided I didn't care quite that much.
Wider rims stiffen the casing by removing the bulb effect, there is still a lot we don't know about the real effect on performance of wider rims.
A while back I wrote an article on my site showing a comparison of GP4000s 23 v 25 on a 23mm rim combined with Zipp aero data to get a more holistic performance comparison - wider tyre was faster in most situations in that case.

a 25mm rim may flatten the sidewall so much that the tyre has to be run 20psi lower to gain equal comfort, effect of that on CRR is unknown (at least in the publicly available info) at this point.
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Re: New Tour tests of 2015 aero road bikes [cyclenutnz] [ In reply to ]
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^Well said.
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