Was waiting for a thread haha is he riding a 54x14?

55x14 per the Trek factory racing website yesterday.

I'm glued to it! Excited for that last 10 mins.... a very dark place as sufferfest would say....

Yes, I'm sure 'it seemed like a good idea at the time'.. ;OP

---

formerly but still a Run Snail...

I'm enjoying this immensely.

Thanks for the link. Fun to watch!

It is pretty awesome!

---

~~~~~~~~~
Empire Tri Coach
Team Gatorade Endurance
USATF Coach | NYRR Distance Pacer
Dad of twins

JENS MUTHER FUKIN VOIGT

---

All I Wanted Was A Pepsi, Just One Pepsi

Team Zoot, Team Zoot Mid-Atlantic

51.115!

Who won the pool?

John

---

---

Top notch coaching: Francois and Accelerate3 | Follow on Twitter: LifetimeAthlete |

51.111

---

----------------------------------------

Now that was impressive.. wow..

---

Graham Wilson
USAT Level III Elite Coach
http://www.thewilsongroup.biz

was BIG of TREK to stream it for us

---

http://www.fitspeek.com the Fraser Valley's fitness, wellness, and endurance sports podcast

Yes!

---

Train safe & smart
Bob

That was fun to watch!

I hope this gets more popular. It would be great to see some of the best TTers out there battle it out.

Great way to wrap up a career.

We watched it beginning to end. Enjoyed it immensely. Big shout out to TREK for streaming this. Although, I really would have liked to see watts, HR and W/Kg on the screen as well. Then I could have been humbled even more.

---

BC Don
Pain is temporary, not giving it your all lasts all Winter.

That was awesome. Jens is such a stud. What a career. He's like the terminator. He just keeps coming. Years of relentless soul crushing and awesomeness.

Hydrosloth wrote:

was BIG of TREK to stream it for us

---

---

Just laughed out loud at this!

Awesome work Jens, what an inspiration.

---

Ready or not here I come!
Coaching NY's Southern Tier
Swift^3

great watch! that last 15 minutes looked absolutely brutal!!!

---

-----------------------------------------------------
Check out my website/blog: http://www.macheetri.com
Infinit Ambassador: Use INFINIT-P29DC for $5.00 off

I would have loved to have seen speed and watts on the screen.

---

TrainingBible Coaching
http://www.trainingbible.com

I think I peed myself a little

Against UCI rules.

True or sarcasm? (I could see it going either way...)

True, UCI will not allow that information to be broadcast. Well, I think they could possibly do speed, but not power.

Correct me if I am wrong, but why does the front page say he broke the hour record. This is slower than Moser went at Mexico City 1985 and slower than Rominger, Indurain and Boardman all went on standard aero position (not Obree Egg or Superman). Moser was 51.151 in 1985 with no aero bars (albeit at altitude).

Their bikes all had different front/rear wheel sizes.

The new "unified" record allows for records on bikes that comply with the UCI rules at the time of the effort

some of us were seeing watts... Andy Froncioni for one. Jens was getting watts through the whistle system from his coach. You just have to know how to use a stopwatch.

---

Eric Reid AeroFit | Instagram Portfolio
Aerodynamic Retul Bike Fitting

“You are experiencing the criminal coverup of a foreign backed fascist hostile takeover of a mafia shakedown of an authoritarian religious slow motion coup. Persuade people to vote for Democracy.”

Dev,

Because based on new UCI classifications, the records set by Boardman, Obree, Moser, and Indurain are called "Best Human Effort" records due to the type of bikes that were used by these four when they set these records. These custom bikes had different wheels, disks, non standard handlebars - all of which were not used in regular track events. Per the old UCI rules, the "Hour Record" can only be set by a track pursuit bike, essentially the same as what Eddy Merckx used when he set his record in Mexico in 1972. Note the key words here being "track pursuit bikes" In 1972, Merckx used what was then the official track pursuit bike.

But pursuit bikes in track races have evolved since 1972, which the UCI acknowledges. So in May of this year, the UCI combined both "Best Human Effort"
and "Hour Record" classifications and allowed a new "Hour Record" to be broken using the current crop of track pursuit bikes - which is essentially what Voigt used today.

An no, I did not stay at the Holiday Inn last night. I stayed at my apartment.

.

---

.........................__0.............0
...................._.-\ <,_.........</\_
.....~_.o^,....(...)./.(...)......._/\...

Fair enough but... it is a bit bogus...tell me that this equipment that Boardman used is anything better than Jen's current "UCI approved track bike", Chris even said that the Corima was an aerodynamic barn door....plus he did not even use dual disks.

Wow, how do you not get dizzy doing 201 laps?

But that was not the bike that Boardman used in September 1996 when he set that 56.6259 km record. He actually used a rear-disked blue custom made bike branded as a Merkx (Eddy was actually supporting Boardman that night when he set the record), using the Obree/Superman position wearing a Gan tracksuit - which I believe was his team then. I actually bought a Gan Jersey after he set that record. At that time though, the UCI wasn't as concerned about the bike as they were about the position. They clearly did not like Obree's tucked-arms position but they also did not like Boardman's superman position.

What is clear here is that the UCI, as a governing body, has had to make regulations and set standards for establishing records set in the track by human powered vehicles. Granted, the UCI's record in other matters are questionable but somebody has to make some regulations. Note that Boardman's record has been officially broken more than a hundred times in the track by streamlined recumbents.

---

.........................__0.............0
...................._.-\ <,_.........</\_
.....~_.o^,....(...)./.(...)......._/\...

So is there general consensus as to who would have been fastest if they all rode the same bike?

Well for starters he is not wearing a helmet. Saddle position could be illegal and extension length possibly as well.

---

---

Heath Dotson
HD Coaching:Website |Twitter: 140 Characters or Less|Facebook:Follow us on Facebook

No, but the UCI ratifies the official records of those who ride the longest distance in one hour - based on two types of bike classifications as I mentioned above. The record that Voigt broke - the "Hour Record" was previously held by Ondrej Sosenka (I think) who established the 49.7 km record in 2005. I believe he used a drop handlebar, but I am not so sure. I don't think the UCI ratifies records set in the track by recumbents.

.

---

.........................__0.............0
...................._.-\ <,_.........</\_
.....~_.o^,....(...)./.(...)......._/\...

Boardman used the Corima in Manchester and went 54.XXX in the same position as Jens. It's a technicality that Jens holds this "record" over Chris. I'm on a mobile and can't go and download all the "human bests" positions and equipment. Chris went 56.xxx on superman when riding for Gan.

By the way, Obree invented Superman after they banned his egg position. Chris used Superman to surpass Obree's superman.

To Heath, yes, I did mention Chris' fairing helmet on the front page article....but at the same time don't you think that Jens' dual disks are way less drag than Chris with the Corima quad spokes.

I get all the UCI technicalities, but from a pure athletic achievement, I think Chris' 54.xxx on the Corima was a superior athletic performance to Jens.

He used the Corima in Bordeaux and went 52.270. Rominger was the first person to go over 54.

I'm more impressed with Moser's record in 1984 of 51.151.

---

---

Heath Dotson
HD Coaching:Website |Twitter: 140 Characters or Less|Facebook:Follow us on Facebook

We can all pound our fists on the table and feign all this outrage, or we can recognize it for what it really was. It was a massive PR exercise done by the UCI and funded by Trek. I tip my hat to Trek for getting people to watch a one hour commercial for the speed concept. Just an absolutely brilliant piece of guerrilla marketing.

---

---

Heath Dotson
HD Coaching:Website |Twitter: 140 Characters or Less|Facebook:Follow us on Facebook

I was surprised that they were allowed to use our telemetry equipment *during* the HR itself. We knew they were using it for aero tuning, but it was a pleasant surprise to see the Alphamantis logo and software during the stream. Quite clearly, Trek wasn't hiding the fact that they even had CdA telemetry.

---

AndyF
bike geek

That bike may have been a barn door, but it was the prettiest hour record bike ever. I love the way that one looks.

---

Swimming Workout of the Day:

Favourite Swim Sets:

2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly

---

AeroCoach UK
http://www.aero-coach.co.uk

Yeah, and that's the exact point....also thanks about correcting that Boardman went 52.xxx in Manchester.....and Moser's Mexico City 51.151 was pretty impressive even if those were the early Conconi/Ferrari days as blood transfusions were not illegal then (US track cyclists won multiple medals at LA Olympics on blood transfusions).

And probably best for me to not go by memory so here is the actual summary

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hour_record


Example UCI Hour record-holders, with equipment description:[9][10]
(a) UCI unified record, (b) UCI hour record, (c) UCI best human effortDateRiderAgeVelodromeDistance (km)Equipment25 October 1972Eddy Merckx27Agust�n Melgar, Mexico City,Mexico49.431 (b)drop handlebar/round steel tubing frame/wire spokes23 January 1984Francesco Moser32Agust�n Melgar, Mexico City,Mexico51.151 (c)bull-horn handlebar/oval steel tubing frame/disk wheels17 July 1993Graeme Obree27Vikingskipet, Hamar, Norway51.596 (c)Graeme Obree-style "praying mantis" handlebar/round steel tubing frame/carbon tri-spoke wheels23 July 1993Chris Boardman24Velodrome du Lac, Bordeaux,France52.270 (c)triathlon handlebar/carbon airfoil tubing frame/carbon 4-spoke wheels15 January 1994Francesco Moser42Agust�n Melgar, Mexico City,Mexico51.840Graeme Obree-style "praying mantis" handlebar/chest-pad on top frame/wheels unknown; UCI veteran's record27 April 1994Graeme Obree28Velodrome du Lac, Bordeaux,France52.713 (c)Graeme Obree-style "praying mantis" handlebar/round steel tubing frame/carbon tri-spoke wheels2 September 1994Miguel Indurain30Velodrome du Lac, Bordeaux,France53.040 (c)wide triathlon handlebar/carbon monocoque aero frame/disk wheels22 October 1994Tony Rominger33Velodrome du Lac, Bordeaux,France53.832 (c)triathlon handlebar/oval steel tubing frame/disk wheels5 November 1994Tony Rominger33Velodrome du Lac, Bordeaux,France55.291 (c)triathlon handlebar/oval steel tubing frame/disk wheels6 September 1996Chris Boardman28Manchester Velodrome,Manchester, UK56.375 (c)Graeme Obree "superman-style" handlebar/carbon monocoque aero frame/5-spoke front & rear disk wheels27 October 2000Chris Boardman32Manchester Velodrome,Manchester, UK49.441 (b)drop handlebar/carbon fibre tubing/wire spokes19 July 2005Ond&#345;ej Sosenka29Krylatskoye, Moscow, Russia49.700 (a)(b)drop handlebar/carbon fibre tubing/wire spokes18 September 2014Jens Voigt43Velodrome Suisse, Grenchen,Switzerland51.115 (a)Aerobars, modified time trial bike, front & rear disc wheels

How much faster does he go on dual disks, and shoe covers and aero chainring even on the same barn door bike/fork/base bar?

>I'm glued to it! Excited for that last 10 mins.... a very dark place as sufferfest would say....

I've always thought it would be a great format for a sprint triathlon. You have a velodrome surrounding a banked indoor running track. Which surrounds an Olympic-size pool. Run heats of like 10 (1 per swim lane). Draft legal. Would make absolutely killer TV. It might have bike-run order switched so the athletes would move from the middle outwards.

They did this in Paris circa 1990. Slowman, Monty or Jimmy will recall. It was featured in Triathlete magazine as it was before real internet.

Jens just can't help himself - he always ATTACKS!!!!

---

float , hammer , and jog

I think people need to enjoy the record for what it is, a new era in the rules and hopefully the start of something special. I for one enjoyed the coverage on Eurosport and can't wait for some of the big guns to have a crack at the record, come on Tony Martin.

I've always thought it would be a great format for a sprint triathlon. You have a velodrome surrounding a banked indoor running track. Which surrounds an Olympic-size pool. Run heats of like 10 (1 per swim lane). Draft legal. Would make absolutely killer TV. It might have bike-run order switched so the athletes would move from the middle outwards.///

They had these exact type of races for 4 or 5 years in the mid 90's. Francois i believe has a bunch of tapes of the races, they have been posted here often over the years. Not sure how to ferret them out though. Mostly in France, but a few here and other countries too. Think they were called Grand Prix or something like that..

I seem to recall they did it in Oz in the Tooheys Blue series back in the day also. AN above ground pool in the middle of a velodrome and a series of sprint races. Was around the time of Miles Stewart and Brad Bevan I think.

I think it is really hard to rate who had the best achievement overall. I would probably argue Mercxk. But, and it's a bit but, I don't think any of the others were close to 43 years old when they set their records. THAT to me is very impressive.

Francisco Moser went faster than Jens at 42 yeas using the Obree Egg position:

15 January 1994Francesco Moser42Agust�n Melgar, Mexico City,Mexico51.840Graeme Obree-style "praying mantis" handlebar/chest-pad on top frame/wheels unknown; UCI veteran's record

By the way, it may sound like I am beating up on Jens pulling up all this old stuff, but I want to see someone like to see one of the young guys who did not overlap with the "two speed/super doped era" doing something special. I don't think that Jens' performance is appreciably better than most of the previous all time bests. Now I suppose we can say he is on the biological passport, but there were many years of "physiological gains" (if you believe the what people say about latent benefits from years of being able to train unnaturally) given he would have had access to the best products that his generation had access to before the passport came out. I am not particularly thrilled that Jens is the guy taking the so called "record" today. His career intersected/overlapped with many of the big time dopers of all time, enough that I won't take his numbers today at face value any more than I'll take Romingers or Colom's triathlon results. I'd prefer to see some of the young guys from the "new generation" who came through with a full biological passport take the "record" next.

It's not really about the bike, but the cyclist. He would have set that time, with any of the modern carbon TT bikes. Lets give him that at least.

.

---

.........................__0.............0
...................._.-\ <,_.........</\_
.....~_.o^,....(...)./.(...)......._/\...

Now I suppose we can say he is on the biological passport, but there were many years of "physiological gains" (if you believe the what people say about latent benefits from years of being able to train unnaturally) given he would have had access to the best products that his generation had access to before the passport came out. //

This is a perfect example like so many other guys from that generation, that you do have long lasting gains from doping. And it also flies in the face of those that say that once they go off, their bodies fall apart. I do believe that most of the top guys now are riding clean at the moment, so for them to still be the top guys, guess their old physiologies did not self destruct, or even become compromised from all the supplementing for a lot of years. I have no problem with Jens getting this record, and it will be several more ex dopers that break it. Just the way it is going to be, guys that kept their heads down or served their time in the penalty box, are going to dominate for a few more years. Up until the new younger guys can replace them with lifetime clean results. But there has to be this point where youth trumps a lifetime of doping, and we are not there yet. These guys have to get old enough that age is also working against them, and from Jens performance today, we have many years to go before that happens...

I don't get dizzy doing laps in 40 seconds, but at under 18 seconds per lap I'd have pulled off the track to puke by about 3 mintues!

---

TriDork

"Happiness is a myth. All you can hope for is to get laid once in a while, drunk once in a while and to eat chocolate every day"

Only if Jens doped. Which nobody knows.
Well, Jens knows.

Also this was a record that the amateur State TT champ in most states could have broken, you don't need to dope to do it.

---

---

Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter

Also this was a record that the amateur State TT champ in most states could have broken, you don't need to dope to do it. //

I agree, i think bjorn could have broken it. And i said, i don't believe at all that he is now doping. And more than Jens knows about doping. He has been on several teams that had instituational doping. Hell, virtually all teams from a certain period with any funding at all, had team doctors keeping an eye on things. SO unless you think he passed it all up, while right in his face, chose to race clean knowing everyone else was doping, and said not one thing about it, well i guess that could have happened. Means he was the best rider in the world for a very long time and didn't mind no one knowing it though. Seems like pretty long odds that this was the scenario..

which is kind of my beef with all the "look how awesome Jens is" that is making the rounds today. He was slower than the hour records of the early 90's in a regular "triathlon position" on a faster bike, with better wheels and cleaner cockpit. Plus he spent a lifetime on teams that were filled with dopers. So why this "record" is being so celebrated today I don't really get. If he beat all the distance that Rominger-Indurain-Boardman put down in the same position then fine.

With ST supposed to be somewhat against anti doping (unlike Velonews who we said was promoting an ex doper like Contador post Vuelta as the greatest Grand Tour rider of all time...) I am surprised that it made the front page of ST today. Let the cycling world cover riders of that time and leave it at that.

Edit: By the way, I was a massive Jens fan back in the day. He could do no wrong. But I have much more sympathy for guys like Levi, George, Barry...heck even Hesjdal or Vino or Contador than Jens. Jens just acts like nothing ever happened.

I've had that beef with him for years!
He has been good at marketing himself.

---

---

Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter

I'd rather that the time of Rominger in that tri position at 55.xxx kph stands rather than Jens. Rominger and Jens' careers had equal access to the high octane stuff. Or is the concept that Jens had access for his entire career and did this "record" on the passport, while Rominger only had access for the last 3 years of his career and was likely on the full Ferrari approved program the day he went 55.xxx ? Thus Jens is "cleaner". This would be so much easier if your local state champ took the "new record" Jens taking it just makes the entire thing as ridiculous as letting Rominger's number stand.

There's an interesting article on Velonews about this, but do you think that every single record that was ever set, in any sport, by someone who you retrospectively can prove doped to get it should be struck from the books?

Do you think its reasonable to crucify Armstrong but not hold all of his peers to exactly the same standard?

I am more than happy to hold everyone to the same standard.....as long as their offenses were the same.

Since Armstrong's offenses were worse than his peers, I have zero problem in his punishment being different.

---

Chicago Cubs - 2016 WORLD SERIES Champions!!!!

"If ever the time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin." - Samuel Adams

Well, it is possible that Jens doesn't know, and one of his old doctors does know.

I'd have guessed the red dots were points where he lapped himself.

---

I reject your reality and substitute my own!
Adam Savage

nonetheless, it's an nice achievement. Now I'm hoping he doesn't come to my AG or I'll get kicked down even further down the ranks....

All kidding aside, if it sounds this easy and it has taken someone 9yrs to better it, and the publicity / PR / marketing engines behind it, I can't help but feel certain people like Tony Martin, Wiggins, Cancelara, ... are all going to have a shot at it.

These guys are considered the absolute top amongst TT'rs. The 1-hr record is as good a TT is ever going to get. It's about polishing personal ego's and corporate branding.

Cancelara already stated a few times he wants this record. Surely, he'll have a go at it somewhere soon. I hope Tony Martin, Wiggins and Froome all would apply for an hour of dizzy-making >210 banked laps at >50kph.

Put the music on and the pop-corn ready...

GReetz,

S.

"Jens just acts like nothing ever happened. "

Indeed. I came over this little retro on another forum - nice company...

---

------------------------------
Another IM in 2016 - hopefully..

It seems to me like he's the reason this hour record happened. I thought that they updated the hour record rules when Cancellara said he was going to attempt it. If he hadn't planned on doing it the rules might not have gotten changed. (I haven't been following it super closely, but that's the impression I get from what I've read)

how exactly was he worse than the systematic doping of Festina - he may be morally unacceptable for the way he treated people but I think you either you dope or you don't - if you dope you have participated in fraud - all the financial implications of that - the fact that they were bigger for USPS is largely irrelevant

So, we're pretty much stating that every big tour winner back to Mercx and before have all tested positive at least once in their careers should be stricken - this does not work in the long run, we're going to have a reckoning where testers will not be able to keep up with the progress of medicine and genetics and then where will we be.

Let me know where the Festina team paid off the UCI, had them cover up positive dope tests, or had the UCI target other riders. The idea that LA "just doped" is just willful ignorance.


Where did I state that? Leaving aside the factual errors in your statement, I don't believe that.

---

Chicago Cubs - 2016 WORLD SERIES Champions!!!!

"If ever the time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin." - Samuel Adams

Apparently Cancellara's motivation was for racing strong guys from a long time ago, like Merckx, and doing so according to the Merckx rules for the hour record. Since the rules have changed in May, he has lost interest because it's an unfair comparison between the setup he can ride, vs what Merckx had at the time. So he can go out and beat Jens Voigt, but that's not quite the same.

---

_____________________
Don't forget to attack!

Well, he can try to beat Rominger's 55 kph...but that would be an unfair fight I guess even if Fabian has better equipment than Rominger, the. former is on the blood passport plan while the latter was doing Col de Madone climb records prescribed by Ferrari.

I don't understand why the whole world is going on about "shattering the record" and particularly that an informed site like st or velonews would buy into this. The old record is not applicable to what Jens did. It may have well been the tricycle record. Here is the bike of the former record that Jens shattered. Needless to say, Jens with his aero bike and disc wheels was racing a different competition and didn't shatter any record but was just the first to set a bar for a new competition. I can understand mainstream news sites falling for the marketing of "shattering the record", but st, velonews, and the rest?



vs

Well, the reality is that the UCI views it as the same, despite the technological advantage.

But you are right....the only thing Jens really did was reset the record so now others can have a go at it using similar equipment. And he himself has always acknowledged this.

---

Chicago Cubs - 2016 WORLD SERIES Champions!!!!

"If ever the time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin." - Samuel Adams

Yeah, it is a total joke. His equipment should be faster than Rominger's too minus the helmet (Rominger had a fairing helmet) and Rominger went 55 kph in a triathlon position. As I said, Jens had access to high octane PEDs for his entire career minus the recent years, while Rominger had access only in the final 3 years (yes, I understand that Rominger was likely waaaay above 50% HCT when he set the 55 kph).



Also there was some discussion about Fabian likely being really fast. I can't remember which website I read it on, but there was some hypothesis of larger riders on smaller tracks having less advantage over an hour on account of the G force making the blood flow back to the heart more difficult than for smaller riders. Not sure if there is any basis to this, but in the Indurain vs Rominger races there was some discussion to that effect and that Big Mig had a slight disadvantage vs Rominger. Would be interesting to see how this may or may not impact someone like Fabian but I don't think he really is "that big".

But yes, like you surprised that Velonews is treating it as some type of achievement. ST, I kind of understand....it's not so much that Jens set the record, the ST angle would be that a bike we can get for our local triathlon (minus the track fixed gear, derailleurs and brakes) set a new mark. Although perhaps it's just showing that some of the old steel/aluminium narrow tube bikes with less deep fairing-tubes were just as fast. Just get a narrow tube bike, and slap on fast wheels and your 98% of the aero gains of a P5 or Speed concept. I think the more fair comparison is Boardman on the Corima. Rominger had a big Ferrari cloud over his head. Boardman never had that.

That's a reasonable argument to make. Still, the way the UCI went about changing the record (this time around) was quite elegant, in my opinion. The new rules both allow for technological advancements and progression, while at the same time removing all the tainted records of the EPO era. Find a way to start new, and let Martin, Wiggins, Cancellara et al start afresh.

I think most of you are missing the real point of why this was done. Jens is an opportunist. This is a prime example of what he does in races. He saw an opportunity to do something that is hard, but within his capabilities. It is awesome PR and, for a guy like him, something to put a cherry on top of his career. He knows it is going to get shattered, but he also knows that his name is forever in the record books because of this. Not only for holding the record, but for being the guy who lights the fire under the asses of the top TTer's right now and gets the ball rolling for some serious attempts in the future.
Someone had to start it, might as well be the sideshow that is JENS!

As far as the record goes. They needed to reset. I don't think anyone is saying that his effort rivals those we have been speaking of. But they needed to set a standard that people will actually attempt. I believe this is an important record to have active. It is an environment where the top time trialists can pit themselves against each other in an environment that allows them to see who is best!

Regardless of all of this, Jens put out a massive effort yesterday that few can rival. Whether you like him or not, he did something special. It was highly entertaining, and as far as us armchair commentators are concerned, something so far beyond our own abilities as to be superhuman. I doubt there are many in the pro field right now that could match it, and more importantly have the balls to even attempt it.

---

NCCP certified Comp coach

Few men at his age anyway.

---

---

Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter

Not sure of the editorial standard that would say that ST wouldn't cover attempts by someone who never tested positive but rode in a tainted era. You could argue that ST doesn't normally cover pure cycling events on the front page so shouldn't have gone out of it's way on this one. But if the front page evolves to be reflective of the forum, there would be more and more discipline specific news.

This above isn't necessarily reflective of my opinion on Jens, just that there should be a consistent standard for publication. I want to believe he's clean, but I wanted to believe that about Lance, Floyd, Ivan Basso, Barry Bonds, Alex Rodriguez, etc...

Is his power data up anywhere yet?
I read an expected 370W at 77Kg
Just not very jaw dropping.

---

@christopher_borden •
Spinning Spoke • Dimond Bikes • Flo Cycling • Castelli Cycling

Someone quoted 412 but I don't know if that was official.
From his pacing graph it looks like he might have started at 370 to be conservative and then gone a lot harder once he knew he would be ok.

Either way, no it isn't draw dropping. People do not appreciate how much faster a modern TT bike is than a round tube road bike with box rims and round spokes.

~3mph difference!!

We were figuring it was semi plausible that a woman could have broken the record as it existed before Jens took it.

---

---

Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter

I caught that conversation somewhere. I didn't expect it to take many Ws to take down the record, but I thought he'd have many more to spend.

---

@christopher_borden •
Spinning Spoke • Dimond Bikes • Flo Cycling • Castelli Cycling

But, you don't want to allow technological advancements and progression. That corrupts the record. Having the Merckx style as the upper bar of technology enables the record to be a true test across generations. Merckx was 49.4. Sosenka was 49.7. You can't compare Jens to these now. So, who really has the best performance over the hour? What was wrong with keeping the Merckx style and the likes of Fabian and Tony Martin were completely free to race under those rules. Set a limit, keep the limit constant. Maybe that's what they're doing now; resetting the baseline (screw Merckx), and today's technology will remain fixed and the upper bar for the next 50 years. Otherwise the records tell you nothing.

This is what makes track & field so great. There is no substantial technology advancements that corrupt the recordbooks. You can compare Edwin Moses to Kevin Young and know you are looking at a true comparison of performances.

Nicely said. My sentiments exactly.

I've seen 412 said a bunch of times. I think Jens even retweeted that at some point. Take that for what you will. I speculated over on the wattage forums that the 370 number was just thrown out there to try to either confuse the people guessing or when he actually rode the watts he was capable of, make the ride seem that much more impressive.

Hunter Allen, who has seen plenty of Jens' files stated his FTP was between 420-440. Figure losses for a more aggressive position, riding on the track, and heat stress, I'd say that 412 is a pretty legit number.

---

---

Heath Dotson
HD Coaching:Website |Twitter: 140 Characters or Less|Facebook:Follow us on Facebook

Not so great if you actually think the technology is interesting!

---

---

Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter

This is what makes track & field so great. There is no substantial technology advancements that corrupt the recordbooks. You can compare Edwin Moses to Kevin Young and know you are looking at a true comparison of performances.

Yeah, that screwed up swimming for a few years, to the point where the world records from 2008 and 09 are mostly ignored (they are still the records though). Current performances are ranked according to where they are vs. the textile suit standard.

---

Swimming Workout of the Day:

Favourite Swim Sets:

2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly

Well, even Merckx's bike didn't fit the "Merckx record." If you don't allow for progression, then at some point you have to arbitrarily pick a point in time and freeze it. I get that the Merckx-era is more or less a technological watershed, but Sosenka and Boardman did benefit from some technological advantage all the same - clipless pedals and bladed spokes being the most notable - so an 'absolute' comparison isn't feasible.

The positive benefit to having technological advancements is that we get to see more of stuff like this. Just look at the exposure windfall Trek received yesterday, and it wasn't even their star rider. Trek most probably won't throw resources at an antiquated road bike design competition. If they get to plaster their name all over their new superbike (or even their off the shelf TT), then their chances of throwing money at this only increase.

I half-expect to see some "equipment blow-back" attempts, i.e. someone making a (mostly?) serious attempt using a spoke-wheeled sprint bike...maybe even making two attempts: Merckx rules and Voigt rules. It would actually be pretty cool to have that comparison of someone of the current era who could challenge both numbers!

...not sure it would quell any arguments, though, or make the UCI very happy...

Reporting power numbers is a good start, or does ST think that the positions used here limit power output at the expense of aero?

Of course, power numbers are quite a bit less tangible to most than distance/speed, even in the cycling/tri community.

So with 77Kg he rode 5.35 w/Kg.
I was expecting more.

---

@christopher_borden •
Spinning Spoke • Dimond Bikes • Flo Cycling • Castelli Cycling

It was great, but let's call it what it was....a "made for TV" Trek event. Just a setup for the next Trek rider to beat....brilliant, but obvious marketing.

This is what makes track & field so great. There is no substantial technology advancements that corrupt the recordbooks. You can compare Edwin Moses to Kevin Young and know you are looking at a true comparison of performances.

___________

Not exactly. Well I guess it depends on how far back you want to compare. Do you want to compare Jessie Owens vs Bolt? Not possible, etc. But if you are talking within "reason" of the technological age, it's more fairly accurate (probably same thing with swimming and pools, lanes, etc.).
ETA: I think you have to just accept that you really cant compare athletes across a lot of different time periods because of just the differences in so many things. Diets, lifestyles, technological advances, recovery, etc. I do wish the hour record was set on a "regular" road bike, that would be cool to compare (yes I know it would then be talked about differences in frames etc, but atleast the "shape" is similar).

---

------------------
@brooksdoughtie
USAT-L2,Y&J; USAC-L2
http://www.aomultisport.com

Colby Pearce did precisely that last year:

http://www.cyclingnews.com/...record-holder-pearce

Yeah, I just read that not too long after posting. :) If Pearce's gap between the two is typical, Voigt might be able to get close to the Merckx-rules mark. I'd really like to see him try it!

It is still BS. Obree's records were also blown away. UCI never liked Obree, and changed the rules on him after he set the record on the egg position. Then he invents the superman position and moves it further ahead and Boardman picks it up and takes things to 56 kph. Neither of these guys were implicated in any doping, so having Jens have the record ahead of these guys seems totally bogus

Let's just go back to letting the riders ride superman and see if Cancellara and Tony Martin can put up a bigger top line number than 56 kph. The faster someone takes the record away from Jens the better. As I said, I'd rather have Rominger or Indurain hold it over Jens, but I can't really come up with a logical reason other than their top line numbers were better. Boardman on the other hand, I can't see why Jens should hold any record over him. Jens spent a lifetime on doped up teams AND his top hour number is way behind Boardman.

Minus the fact that modern shoes (at least for the last 30 or so years) and, far more importantly, rubber tracks, are a lot faster than cinder stuff.

So it won't affect the two you've labeled, but athletes of an older generation would raise concerns.

It all depends on what we want to celebrate. In general, we've gone for both physical and technological.

---

The question of who is right and who is wrong has seemed to me always too small to be worth a moment's thought, while the question of what is right and what is wrong has seemed all-important.

-Albert J. Nock

Zola Budd and Abebe Bikila may debate the advantage of modern shoes. And, as one whose track career spanned cinder and rubber tracks, at least in the distance events the difference is minor. Cinder tracks were quite fast. Bannister broke 4:00 on one. And, I wonder what the mile world record is on cinder. I bet it's sub 3:50.

Your point is valid. But tech improvements in T&F have certainly been minor in comparison to sports like cycling and swimming (suits). What would happen if someone invented some new pole vault technology that was far more efficient in energy transfer than current ones? Sergey Bubka, screw you? Overnight, you're suddenly the 101st best of all time.

It is indeed hard to say how much better modern tracks are than old cinder tracks (the biggest all-told advantage being consistency of surface).

I think you've done well to capture the spirit of the point, however, and don't really have a dog in the fight either way. I tend to remember athletes more by their dominance in their era than by absolute numbers. There are definitely good points to be made both ways, and for a old-school vs modern pursuit classification.

If nothing else, though, it's good fun to hear about the hour record.

---

The question of who is right and who is wrong has seemed to me always too small to be worth a moment's thought, while the question of what is right and what is wrong has seemed all-important.

-Albert J. Nock

Yes I think this is what is most important. That is why Edwin Moses or Jesse Owens were so amazing. I do wonder how fast Jesse Owens would go all juiced up and with modern shoes and on a fast track like at Beijing or London, but it really does not matter. That's why taking it back to the time of Merckx was arbitrary because Merckx had better bikes and wheels than Fausto Coppi. In sports like hockey or football or baseball, you can't really compare guys between eras because their performances are controlled by those around them hitting, shooting, or tackling them. So it is a "relative to your era thing". That's why, I say, just let the results from all time stand, and let this crop of riders beat each other up, but also have access to the same position that Boardman used to ride 56 kph. Can any of the new crop of riders go 57.5? Even if they don't it does not matte as long as they beat each other...but in general, between training and technology the performances should be "faster/better/higher" over time, and not regress.

If we put Usein Bolt on the same gear and track as Jesse Owens, I am guessing that most of us would be shocked if he is slower or better yet, let's say the IAAF decides that everyone must race like Jesse and rewinds the rules to the era of that time. Now some 43 year old masters former sprinter shows up like Aaron Thigpen and takes the "NEW WORLD RECORD"...we's say "WTF"???? For the record Aaron ran 10.60 as a 40-44 and 10.94 as a 45-49 masters sprinter. But imagine if he showed up and took the "new world record"! Having said that, Aaron's masters results would not be good enough. I'd have to find a 19 year college freshman sprinter that runs 10 flat to take the new record.

I had forgotten those guys were clean (or at least unimplicated) - but then you have to split hairs as to who was clean, and who wasn't, all in retrospect

I think we can agree that the UCI (circa 1990 to a year or three ago) messed up their crown jewel of the record books. First, by not formalizing specific rules for how the hour should be competed (rather than banning positions as they came up), and then second for rewinding too far backwards. Now to fix it they either have to legitimize 'some' suspicious efforts (at least Indurain and Rominger are suspicious, and Moser admitted), or wipe the slate clean. Given the vast swath of riders implicated in the last few years (which the greater public will lump under "Lance related"), the easier choice was just to move to a clean slate and say 'do over'.

I suppose then our only hope is for a Martin/Fabian/Wiggo/etc to surpass Boardman.

I think people get hung up on the w/kg number too much. It matters for climbing but for time trialing it is more about w/CdA. That's why you see many guys like Martin and Cancellara crushing time trial but not able to climb well. Or when one of the super climbers who can put out over 6 watt/kg get smashed in the time trials.

I think the power chart that has been released has caused more confusion than clarification. Not to mention a lot of the numbers in there are taken from the doping era.

The other thing to remember is that he was on a TT bike on the track. The position he used was definitely modified from his normal TT position and riding around the track, the g-forces take their toll. Not to mention the position likely compromised his power some. If you take what Hunter said as true, that his FTP on a road bike was between 420-440 (5.5-5.7 w/kg), the ride was pretty much what you could expect.

---

---

Heath Dotson
HD Coaching:Website |Twitter: 140 Characters or Less|Facebook:Follow us on Facebook

I mentioned this on the UK TT forum but I don't believe the 412w number. I have it pegged as around 378w, and over 400w in the final 50 laps. He put in massive power spikes when he got out of the saddle as his speed for those laps was either maintained or increased - with a CdA increase up to ~0.30 he would be doing mid 500s for 4-5sec. You just can't do that every ~10 laps after halfway when you're on the limit unless you're losing a lot of power in the aero position, which is what I suspect. Hence 378w and a CdA of sub 0.23 - they said they hadn't changed his TT bike position much (as he was so used to riding in it) but that's not true, he used to ride with a snowplough/Ullrich hands position and a much higher head.

As he was using road wireless SRMs on a track bike all sorts of things could have happened to kill the offset, especially in the gate and his slightly juddery start.

---

AeroCoach UK
http://www.aero-coach.co.uk

Well, Obree never raced for a Euro pro team and was vocally anti doping. His only way shine at the hour was to out innovate the other riders and come up with positions that moved the record needle by dramatically reducing his drag. The only reason for the interest in the hour record in the 90's was BECAUSE OF OBREE. He is the guy who lit the fire under the top pros of the time to push the limits. It is a shame that his times are "wiped out" because of Rominger and Indurain chasing him. While the UCI is at it, they should outlaw, retroactively Big Mig's TT bikes from many of this Tours in the 90's since they were not double diamond and take away his Tour wins because he is "suspicious"....can you see how ridiculous this becomes very quickly. What about all those track bikes from the 90's at Barcelona and Atlanta....all those medals should also be wiped clean if you are going to wipe clean the hour records from the same time using similar bikes.

The trek guys are pretty saavy, they had a realtime CdA measurement system in place from Alpha Mantis, I think they can handle keeping an SRM zeroed.

However, 378 does look like enough power to do it at a CdA of .21 or so, which I think should be possible on a track bike.

However 412 is equally plausible, if he cda was just a tiny bit higher.

So who knows!

---

---

Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter

That's all possible. I suspect that the SRM was in decent shape though since SRM was on hand calibrating it throughout the testing and just before the event. Hopefully they will release the data.

I totally agree with you on the position too. It is obvious they changed it quite a bite. I would suspect if his actual power was that low then he was definitely compromised by the position. I think one thing that some are failing to calculate (I did it too) is how much his drifting in the turns cost him. Colby Pearce put it at close to 400m. I'm not sure If I think it was that high, but I'll defer to him since he has a lifetime on the track as well as a couple of hour records himself.

---

---

Heath Dotson
HD Coaching:Website |Twitter: 140 Characters or Less|Facebook:Follow us on Facebook

kny wrote:

This is what makes track & field so great. There is no substantial technology advancements that corrupt the recordbooks. You can compare Edwin Moses to Kevin Young and know you are looking at a true comparison of performances.

Not quite. When Jesse Owens ran the 100M it was on an ash track with no starting blocks. Even the majority of high schools run on a better surface that this today. This is a really good TedTalk on how technology has played a role in new athletic records.

https://www.ted.com/...stronger?language=en

---

Rodney
TrainingPeaks | Altra Running | RAD Roller
http://www.goinglong.ca

Yes I know the AlphaMantis system, I use it as well. It's immaterial though, >51km was a good result for him so hats off.

---

AeroCoach UK
http://www.aero-coach.co.uk

Jens' position looked pretty darn good on Thursday - still, I wonder how much time he gained over Sosenka just by using the aerobars? Sosenka's position was about as aero as you can get with drop bars (see pic below). I guess another way to look at it is much distance could we give Sosenka if we add 2 disc wheels? How about Sosenka on Jens' bike but just switching out the aero bars for 34cm drop bars?

I was thinking about this position. Chris Boardman, when commenting about the superman position said something along the lines of "removing the pipes is worth xx second s per lap" (as he pointed to my arms). Seems like Sosenka is not just exposing the bicep "pipe" but also the forearm pipe. I think a higher stem position and perhaps longer stem eliminates the entire forearm, and puts the upper arm at an obtuse angle also reducing its frontal and making it longer (to the wind) and turning its cross section from a circle to an oval that should also be more aero. But I am just eyeballing this, and perhaps he was in the tunnel before, but his drop position is akin to the "big scoop" aerobar position that is universally accepted as being slow.

In any case, put this guy (not that I love him) on Jens' bike with the disc wheels and surely he beats Jens. Its not even a fair competition. Sosenka may as well be riding with a drag chute compared to Jens' equipment.

boardman didn't have his forearms totally level either.
I think it may be hard to hold a level forearm position around the banking.

---

---

Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter

If you all want a fantastic read about the Hour and all the data mongering, tinkering and passion that goes into an attempt, pick this one up:


http://www.amazon.co.uk/The-Hour-Michael-Hutchinson/dp/0224075209/ref=dp_ob_image_bk


Firsthand account of UK TT monster Michael Hutchinson taking on Boardman's "Athlete's Hour". I read it a couple weeks ago and is a perfect primer on the event. There is also some interesting data in there to ponder.

---

Professional Athlete: http://jordancheyne.wordpress.com/ http://www.strava.com/athletes/145340

Coaching Services:http://www.peakformcoaching.com/

I see what you are saying. Track bikes don't have the "hood" position so the question is how would you create the hood position while using the "hooks", by lifting the hooks yet be locked in well enough to have good control. on a TT bike the left elbow in the cup does the bulk of the steering when going counter clockwise, and likewise in the Superman position although it is not an "elbow in the cup". Never having ridden in a velodrome at 50+ kph I defer to those of you who have...interesting to Monday morning QB it though.

A coupe of small nits....Obree did race for a Euro team in '95 - Le Groupement. But the team folded mid-season and I don't recall if he ever raced much on the road, if at all. But the plan had been for him to contest TT stages.

And, IIRC, it was really Boardman that got the Hour are of ball rolling. He broke Moser's record in '93 as an amateur at Bourdeaux when the Tour finished a stage there. Obree then broke Boardman'a record and the chase was on.

---

Chicago Cubs - 2016 WORLD SERIES Champions!!!!

"If ever the time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin." - Samuel Adams

I think it is more the downward forces you experience around the turns that cause problems with level forearms and road bars.

Those downward forces can make some positions we are used to being fine, not so easy on a track.

---

---

Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter

I though it was the other way, obree broke the record then boardman took it very shortly thereafter, maybe a week or 2 later. obree getting it back again about a year after that before big mig and then rominger.

---

Swimming Workout of the Day:

Favourite Swim Sets:

2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly

We often see changes of over 0.030 m^2 simply when going from drops to aero position.

---

AndyF
bike geek

yes your nit pick on Power13's nit pick is accurate. if I recall correctly Boardman was going to make an attempt and Obree one upped him by inserting his own attempt just before. A close look at wikipedia shows that Obree did his 6 days before Boardman:

17 July 1993Graeme ObreeHamar, Norway51.596
23 July 1993Chris BoardmanVelodrome du Lac, Bordeaux52.270
27 April 1994Graeme ObreeVelodrome du Lac, Bordeaux52.713
2 September 1994Miguel IndurainVelodrome du Lac, Bordeaux53.040
22 October 1994Tony RomingerVelodrome du Lac, Bordeaux53.832

I stand corrected on my nit pick!!

---

Chicago Cubs - 2016 WORLD SERIES Champions!!!!

"If ever the time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin." - Samuel Adams

Are you referring to my power profiling tables? If so, do you think that, e.g., W/kg^0.67 would be more understandable by most people? (I don't, which is why I rejected that approach.)

As for the influence of doping, none of the individuals whose data form the top row of the table have ever been sanctioned for, or even implicated in any formal inquiry into, doping (which of course isn't the same as saying they didn't dope.) It may (or may not) also be relevant that most of the values are from ~2005 and later.

Your nit pick is technically correct. Boardman has set the 4000m inidividual pursuit world record and all the hype was about him taking out Moser's record and doing it at sea level in France in a hotbed of cycling...then this Scot goes to obscure Hamar Norway and upstages the entire gig. Almost like Jens upstaging Martin, Wiggins or Cancellara on this round!

Obree didn't quite ride for Le Groupement - he turned up for the initial 1995 get-together and walked away when instructed to join the team's "medical programme". Both he and Boardman needed to do something spectacular to get the attention of the pro teams, their specific talents not as usable by continental teams as most. Not sure that was a specific part of his plan, Obree first broke the British hour record three or four years earlier. I was aware of his intent to break Moser's record in early 1993, when he rode over 49km at an outdoor concrete track. That was before I was aware of Boardman's intentions, but maybe those started soon after the Barcelona Olympics. As stated elsewhere, Obree got there first by six days, he was originally planning to use Bordeaux but that fell through so he switched to Hamar. And the rest is most definitely history.

Since you were in the know, do you know why Chris used those slow Corima quad spokes rather than dual disks? The Barecelona pursuit was on single disk and the "slow" Mavic tri spoke:

what obree and boardman did will be hard to parallel, if ever - jens (and trek) had the opportunity - and nailed it.... good for them !

I'll admit I was surprised they ran with a road unit and not a track SRM. The road unit would have been a little more aero but road units on fixed gear can be a bit hit and miss.

You can't adjust an SRM's (or any power meter's) zero while pedalling, and in particular on a fixed gear bike when you can't coast. Which is why you should plug for an SRM Track Science model, as they are rock solid for fixed gear work.

My understanding is that they had to use a road crank since a track crank wouldn't have cleared the frame. Had shimano machine custom cogs to deal with the non standard chainline too.

---

Swimming Workout of the Day:

Favourite Swim Sets:

2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly

To be fair against Sosenka, Jens should have ridden on his famous yellow bike.

It surprised me at the time. Sponsors perogative I guess, Boardman and Keen did plenty of tests beforehand. Just checked a magazine from the time and there's a picture of Boardman warming up with teammate Paul Jennings who is also on a Corima but his does have a rear disc. By the World Track Champs at Hamar Boardman and pretty much everyone except Obree was on double discs, Barcelona in 1992 was an open air track hence the trispoke front.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oxJ8EkAIODo

Blast from the past.

Thanks Francois, not sure i ever saw that one. It must have been mandatory to wear a shirt and cycling shorts, but man those were some slow transitions, even for that time period. Loved Bevan running barefoot, i did the same thing years earlier in Germany in a duathlon, only i ran it on the asphalt!!!. Announcer went crazy, all i could hear is ferruct american ish laughen barfoos!!!! ( roughly translates crazy american is running barefoot!! Ended up winning by 4 seconds too, so was worth every blister and scab...

Brilliant. I've never seen that before. As a fellow Queenslander it was brilliant seeing Brad Beven run barefoot. There's a fairly good chance Brad never wore shoes at school so not that big a deal for him.

Hello ianpeace and All,

http://www.gizmag.com/...-hour-cycling/19497/

Cheers,

Neal

+1 mph Faster

Boardman using the long drop section of the bars to partly support his forearms.