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Bahrain politics
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usually we discuss politics in the "lavender room", the forum that keeps off-topic (esp political) discussion off the triathlon forum. we're going to make a semi-exception. i knew when i interviewed saqer al khalifa that i would get serious flack from those whose concern or burden is simply and only the abuses attributed to members of the bahrain royal family. i take those allegations very seriously. i think if we're going to patronize this race, give it coverage, talk to the principals, we ought to provide a place to hash out our decision to give this race oxygen. my calculation was as follows, all of which came before my decision to interview saqer al khalifa.

first, there was a prior article i wrote about the bahrainis, discussing and linking to these allegations. it's here, and there is a link to this article immediately appending to the interview on the front page now. you might find fault with the dialogue i had with myself prior to this interview, and i'm happy to hear whatever it is you want to say. it's below. my one caveat, if you want to engage, is this: we're not the economist. we're slowtwitch.com. geopolitics is not the reason people come to us. triathlon is. therefore, any discussion we're going to have here should be in the context of triathlon. i don't mind discussing anything you want, just, as long as the backdrop of triathlon is acknowledged. we wouldn't be discussing bahrain unless: 1) there's a very significant race going to occur there; and 2) a large slice of this country's political leaders and elite are hard core triathlon enthusiasts, and that's unprecedented in the history of our sport.

the quashing of a popular uprising among the majority shia, who want more democracy and self-determination, weighed heavily on me. on a visceral level i side with the shia. but on a practical level i see what happens when the obvious successor to the khalifa family - al wefaq - fills the power void. this group seems to me progressive as religious parties go, but still holds that Islam has primacy on family matters. it doesn't seem to me even a close call as to where bahrain sits over the past 15 years, among islamic countries, when it comes to expanding rights and access. it's near the top, to the point where the royal family is getting heat from the conservative members of its own side for expanding rights too quickly.

i therefore see this as a binary choice and that choice is not a monarchy or a democracy. rather, the choice might be more closely scribed, as in, the self-determination of the majority, versus the rights of women. some will criticize this as a false choice, as al wefaq is probably more pro-women than most other religious-based political parties. but it is not a full-throated women's rights party. al wefaq is also shy of distancing itself from iran, and iran's strident anti-western stand.

i was a fool to simply cheer the arab spring as if when the shackles come off alexander hamilton shows up and starts quoting locke and voltaire. it's clear that in almost every place we (the U.S.) have stepped in to tip the scales in the middle east chaos has been the result. i therefore don't have any wisdom, any answers, further i don't know that any pundit, politician, or seasoned state department veteran does. i think this should cause me (at least) to pause before i overlay my naive and imperfect view of middle eastern politics on my decision to self-censor coverage of this event.

on the one hand, then, you have the bird's eye view that i lay out above, according to my reading and my thinking. what you have on the ground, in particular, in detail, is the list of specific allegations against certain members of the royal family. these can't be just tossed aside. indeed, some of these acts are attributed to one of those who has fallen inside our circle of triathletes. as tevya said in fiddler, "there is no other hand." this isn't anything that can be tossed off, explained away, discounted, dismissed, diminished.

so, ought we to give oxygen to this race? does it deserve it? if i say "no", on what basis? because of a substantiated allegation of torture against a shia demonstrator by a member of the government? okay. but then should i also not give coverage to any triathlon in the united states either? should i not cover this race because the bahraini government chooses what it considers expediency and realism over a sped-up recognition and granting of full rights to all bahrainis? okay. but then should i not cover any races in the U.S. either, since we house our 5th fleet in bahrain?

this was my thought process, and, it has led to the "slowtwitch doctrine": we will either not cover, or actively campaign against, athletic events that seem to us to be specific attempts to propagandize and hide and put a false face on otherwise onerous regimes and practices. the 1936 olympics comes to mind.

i don't think this is one of those races. if you look at this particular man i interviewed, in his "former" life, before triathlon, one of his initiatives was pushing for free health care for all bahrainis on the condition that they spent a requisite amount of time engaged in improving their physical fitness and health. this guy is just a convert to what we believe in, at slowtwitch, at the core: that health and fitness saves and adds value to lives. this race is not a screen behind which is hidden tyranny. tyranny may exist in bahrain, but hiding it is not the purpose of this race. accordingly, i can see no reason why we should not embrace the possibility that a race likes this throws a lot of disparate people together in the cauldron of competition, where they come out the other side a little bit closer than before.

okay. sorry for the dissertation. i will discuss this with any person of goodwill for as long as that person wants.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: Bahrain politics [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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go ahead Dan and discuss it with people here and not offline
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Re: Bahrain politics [TimJ] [ In reply to ]
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that's my intent. i got a couple of drive-by facebook comments immediately upon the publication of that interview. which is fine. i've invited them both to engage here, on this thread, mostly because reader forums are just much easier places - better architecture - for having a discussion. they either will or won't post here based on whether they are truly serious about their message.

the one issue that, to me, was much much tougher than the response to the arab spring uprising was the kafala system that abuses and functionally enslaves foreign workers. this has been a persistent criticism of abu dhabi. this isn't anything that, to me, is defensible. bahrain's handling of the arab spring revolts is troubling, but there are offsetting realities that at least bear discussing. there is no offset to kafala.

it seems to me that the government in bahrain has been more out front on excising kafala from its country than other arab states, and i did look into this before i made my decision as to my posture on this race and our coverage of it.

i have always believed in sunlight. article XXIII, the newest and last of USAT's bylaws, is called the "sunshine policy" and lew kidder and i wrote it. it's been a topic of hot contention at USAT ever since. to me, our coverage of this race ought to bring sunshine to bahrain, everything in bahrain. i think bahrain is ready for it. we'll see.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
Last edited by: Slowman: Aug 30, 14 19:21
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Re: Bahrain politics [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Dan, I am sorry but you lost me after the first paragraph and you obviously are obviously used to way outsmarting people on a forum. I have no problem with any party in this but 'am excited to see your responses to previously targeted criticism that has been portrayed and somewhat supported here.
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Re: Bahrain politics [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Dan, thanks for posting this, and I'm more uninformed on all of this, but I know this seems to catch a lot of flack.

So I'm currently going through graduate school and one of the things I've been pounded into the ground about is "supporting" your stance with facts/figures/research and never saying "I think". So, going back to a few of your comments, how much of this were you able to research? Is all of this pretty common knowledge about the issues, and who's been attached to the issues and who hasn't. Your probaly one of the most knowledgeable person in this industry, and when you put your weight behind something, that obviously means something. I also know/feel you aren't afraid to "step on toes", or maybe it's more accurate to say, you don't seem like a "yes man". So you going out on a limb so to speak with this race and the issues attached to that region, to me has a lot of merit.

So is the abuse overblown, or is it more a case of, yes they have some pretty bad issues, but so does the U.S., and by our reporting, it's only fair to give them a fair shake as well?

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@brooksdoughtie
USAT-L2,Y&J; USAC-L2
http://www.aomultisport.com
Last edited by: BDoughtie: Aug 30, 14 20:01
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Re: Bahrain politics [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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After being rebuffed on the front page article has a "hit and run" I am coming here. So, I see the question as "should we support the Bahraini royal family members who seem to love triathlon so much?". The fact is, Nasser bin Hamad Al Khalifa, one of the prime members of the royal family triathlon team - Saqer even mentioned him in the article - personally locked up and beat members of the Bahraini sports teams (which he oversees) for participating in a peaceful protest for democracy. Attempting to create a moral equivalency between that and the failures of the US to sometimes live up to our ideals is absurd. Could you imagine the son of a president of the United States having a peaceful protestor locked up at his direction, going in to the jail with a bat and beating them bloody? This is something we cannot just ignore because they decided to give half a million dollars to some pro triathletes and they seem to really really like racing triathlons themselves. If we cannot take a stand against this behavior, even if it is to merely ask one single question about it when we have the guy's attention, what is it that we can stand up for, other than prize money?

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Ed O'Malley
www.VeloVetta.com
Founder of VeloVetta Cycling Shoes
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Last edited by: RowToTri: Aug 30, 14 20:18
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Re: Bahrain politics [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Dan

Many triathlon seasons I had the pleasure to compete at the World Military Games. This was a venue for servicemen from all countries to square off against each other on the field of play rather than the battlefield. We stood, on parade at the Olympic Stadium in Rome at the opening ceremony, each one of us in our respective country's military uniform. Then the next day, we took those off and put on our sporting uniform. Amazingly those who we viewed as foes, became our brothers. This was the Olympic games for servicemen, and the motto was and continues to be "friendship through sport". While we went through our military training, the target at the shooting range was called, "Ivan" (I was a serviceman when the cold was was full blown). Turns out the Ivans were really just like us. A bunch of geeks obsessed with swim splits, bike gear, and what Spencer Smith or Simon Lessing did at last weekend's race. In that 10 days or so, I learned that how "the same" we all are, even though our countries cultures, our military training, or daily environment drive into our brains that the other guy is the hated enemy who will rip the eyeballs out of my skull if given a chance. I found that sport really ripped down the barriers between us. The Infanteer from Mozambique running on the track, the midshipman from the Naval Academy in the swim competition, the pilot from the Royal Air Force at the shooting range (funny that one...) or the tank commander from Israel on the wrestling mat. Or myself a triathlete whose parents came to Canada for a better life, with a Maple Leaf sharing the same start line with Stadler and Hellriegel and realizing that the weapons we use in sport when we square off are a heck of a lot nicer than what I was programming to put in F-18's.

So that really changed my perspective on how much sport can bring us together, and I think it is more important the good that can be achieved through sport than some of the down side. If you stop covering any sporting event where there is some political strife or human rights violation connection you will not cover a single sporting event anywhere. Why are you covering the ITU World's in Edmonton, because just a few hundred miles away, if you talk to native Canadians, Canada has done more than its share to abuse them, or Chinese Canadians, or Japanese Canadians. We have ZERO leg up on the Bahrainis, because you can look right in our back yard and point to an endless sequence of mess ups over time. Better stop covering all events in Canada if you're gonna boycott Challenge Bahrain. And I picked on my own country, because it is easier to pick on yourself. If I pick on your country, or England or any former European power, I could come up with a list that fills an entire facebook data center in terms of Petabytes of abuse related content, but that just gets a bit too messy.

So I say, keep covering triathlon, whether it is in Edmonton, in Bahrain, in Abu Dhabi, or Beijing or NYC. Remember some of the history of New Amsterdam and what the Wall in Wall street was there for (from wikipedia): One version of the story is worth quoting: "The red people from Manhattan Island crossed to the mainland, where a treaty was made with the Dutch, and the place was therefore called the Pipe of Peace, in their language, Hoboken. But soon after that, the Dutch governor, Kieft, sent his men out there one night and massacred the entire population. Few of them escaped, but they spread the story of what had been done, and this did much to antagonize all the remaining tribes against all the white settlers. Shortly after, Nieuw Amsterdam erected a double palisade for defense against its now enraged red neighbors, and this remained for some time the northern limit of the Dutch city. The space between the former walls is now called Wall Street, and its spirit is still that of a bulwark against the people." [10]


...because you can always go back a bit or a lot in time and find fishy behavior by humans in any location where we have triathlon...either now or back in the day. Where do you cut the line?
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Re: Bahrain politics [RowToTri] [ In reply to ]
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RowToTri wrote:
After being rebuffed on the front page article has a "hit and run" I am coming here. So, I see the question as "should we support the Bahraini royal family members who seem to love triathlon so much?". The fact is, Nasser bin Hamad Al Khalifa, one of the prime members of the royal family triathlon team - Saqer even mentioned him in the article - personally locked up and beat members of the Bahraini sports teams (which he oversees) for participating in a peaceful protest for democracy. Attempting to create a moral equivalency between that and the failures of the US to sometimes live up to our ideals is absurd. Could you imagine the son of a president of the United States having a peaceful protestor locked up at his direction, going in to the jail with a bat and beating them bloody? This is something we cannot just ignore because they decided to give half a million dollars to some pro triathletes and they seem to really really like racing triathlons themselves. If we cannot take a stand against this behavior, even if it is to merely ask one single question about it when we have the guy's attention, what is it that we can stand up for, other than prize money?

In America, money talks. All that other stuff is irrelevant.

_________________________________
The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design.
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Re: Bahrain politics [RowToTri] [ In reply to ]
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Attempting to create a moral equivalency between that and the failures of the US to sometimes live up to our ideals is absurd. //

Why do you think it is absurd? And not just here, but just about every other country we go and compete in, you can find some really bad shit, much, much, worse that beating someone. China, Russia, and many other countries that we love to compete against, and on their soil, would fall into the top of your list i would guess. I saw this same shit 35 years ago when Carter wrongly boycotted the Moscow olympics. Then they in turn boycotted ours. What was gained, nothing. You can always find a reason to not go to some other country, but competition is the bridge that will eventually unite us. That and business are the things that bring people of all nations together, and it is a step in the right direction to understanding each other.


I get it, you don't like what some of them do, they don't particularly like what we do. We don't like what the Chinese and Russians do, they don't like what we stand for. But thus far we have gotten along pretty well all things considered, and sport is a big reason for that. I say give these guys a chance, I made my opinion perfectly clear a few days ago in the lavender room on what i though of the arab spring and its outcomes. These guys are boy scouts compared to many of their Arab brethren. Lets find some things in common and pursue them, rather than building a wall and hunkering down with guns loaded and ready..We don't need one more unstable government over there, think we have enough on our plate already.


And this is not a defense of anything anyone has done in any of the countries i mentioned(including ours), but a defense of sport for sports sake.
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Re: Bahrain politics [monty] [ In reply to ]
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monty wrote:
Attempting to create a moral equivalency between that and the failures of the US to sometimes live up to our ideals is absurd. //

Why do you think it is absurd? And not just here, but just about every other country we go and compete in, you can find some really bad shit, much, much, worse that beating someone. China, Russia, and many other countries that we love to compete against, and on their soil, would fall into the top of your list i would guess. I saw this same shit 35 years ago when Carter wrongly boycotted the Moscow olympics. Then they in turn boycotted ours. What was gained, nothing. You can always find a reason to not go to some other country, but competition is the bridge that will eventually unite us. That and business are the things that bring people of all nations together, and it is a step in the right direction to understanding each other.


I get it, you don't like what some of them do, they don't particularly like what we do. We don't like what the Chinese and Russians do, they don't like what we stand for. But thus far we have gotten along pretty well all things considered, and sport is a big reason for that. I say give these guys a chance, I made my opinion perfectly clear a few days ago in the lavender room on what i though of the arab spring and its outcomes. These guys are boy scouts compared to many of their Arab brethren. Lets find some things in common and pursue them, rather than building a wall and hunkering down with guns loaded and ready..We don't need one more unstable government over there, think we have enough on our plate already.


And this is not a defense of anything anyone has done in any of the countries i mentioned(including ours), but a defense of sport for sports sake.

x2 to the parts in bold.

We and the rest of the world had zero issue around a massive Olympic party in Beijing during the time Bolt and Phelps were covering themselves with Gold medals, and we have no issue turning a blind eye to all the abuses, both industrial and human that result in our cheap goods at Walmart or the LBS. The world ain't perfect. Let's do like they taught me a few decades ago, "Friendship Through Sport".
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Re: Bahrain politics [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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The interview seems incomplete. For example when he says this:

"Triathlon is just one little thing we can do to bring to the streets of Bahrain a healthy lifestyle, social development, the unity among the population, the rich and the poor coming together in a triathlon waiting at the finish line."

The logical thing to do would be to question him how he dares to say this when Bahraini women would not be able to participate due to the "dress code." Going to the west to compete and being OK with this difference seems hypocritical.
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Re: Bahrain politics [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Bahrain is one of the most progressive nations in that region. I can support that.
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Re: Bahrain politics [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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I'm impressed by the time and thought you've put into this. While people may disagree on how much weight to give various factors, I think we should all appreciate your approach.

Aaron Bales
Lansing Triathlon Team
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Re: Bahrain politics [RowToTri] [ In reply to ]
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"After being rebuffed on the front page article has a "hit and run" I am coming here"

i didn't rebuff you. i invited you here. you came. i'm glad you did.

i'm familiar with the allegation. the person i interviewed is not the person who is the subject of the allegation. i chose my interview subject. he didn't approach me, i approached him. and, i have no business relationship with the bahrainis. i don't anticipate any. i'm going to be heading to interbike in a week and a half, and when i do i'll see most of my contemporaries and competitors walking the floor 2 at a time: the editorial guy along with the advertising guy. clear message to the brands who see these pairs coming. the same couples were seen at eurobike last week. we don't do that.

so, i hope we can dispense with the payola allegations. not that you engaged in that. just, for those who did accuse us, and for anybody else...

if it was not for the incident that you bring up, this wouldn't even be a close call. nothing to discuss. bahrain is probably, along with jordan, the most progressive country among islamic monarchies and constitutional monarchies. it's done more since the last change in head-of state (late 90s) to move toward western sensibilities as regards freedom, self-determination, self-expression, freedom of movement, than any other country similarly organized with a similar history. when it comes to taxation and social welfare and benefits what it offers its citizens is remarkable for a non-oil-producer. it's got the fastest growing economy among the GCC countries, and its wealth flows to its unenfranchised citizens to a degree probably in excess of what happens in the U.S.

but, you have the response to the arab uprising and a central figure in triathlon is implicated. i read a number of articles like this one, and i think this pretty well sums up the refusal of this issue to be reduced to easy rights and wrongs. i don't know what happened there. i can't imagine torture as an acceptable let alone honorable remedy.

so what should our posture be on slowtwitch? bahrain, and its rulers, and this ruler in question as part of the ruling family, represent the best of the middle east. you tell me, at least among islamic countries, who is better than bahrain? morocco? maybe. turkey? maybe. where else?

bahrain is running, not walking, in the direction we would like the islamic world to go, compared to other countries in that region. my guess is that our being there and talking to them and riding our bikes with them, and teaching them a better flip turn, triathlon diplomacy, is better than not being there.

i also do not know the other side of the story. i don't know the response to the allegation of torture. i didn't ask. had i asked, i'd have gotten the other side of the story. if i printed that, we'd be into dueling narratives, and i don't feel that i'm a fit arbiter for that, and i think it misses the point and certainly strays from our mission.


Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: Bahrain politics [Maui_] [ In reply to ]
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"The logical thing to do would be to question him how he dares to say this when Bahraini women would not be able to participate due to the "dress code." Going to the west to compete and being OK with this difference seems hypocritical."

i think you might do 2 things:

1. search women's rights in bahrain. see what the current government has done in regard to women's rights since the turn of the century. see what impact what they have done has had on other GCC countries.

2. reflect on the fact that the majority of bahrain's population is shia, and is actually against women's rights reforms that the government wants to make. this is why i wrote earlier that it's not simple. you might argue that self-determination is a bedrock right. majority rule. but what happens when the majority wants to disenfranchise women? you're granting one right to give up another. (egypt.) it looks to me as if the bahraini government is going about as fast as they can on women's rights. it's like a bahraini asking why obama doesn't fix immigration. i'm sure he'd like to.

if you or anyone have evidence that refutes what i'm writing here, i'm eager to learn.


Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: Bahrain politics [MI_Mumps] [ In reply to ]
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You summed this up perfectly. Dan is always the guy in these discussions wearing his big boy pants. To even engage in conversation with these self-proclaimed open-minded individuals who are in fact close-minded to any beliefs outside of their own is him offering to meet them more than halfway! We'd all be hard pressed to find anyone who considers all of the sides of the issues as much as he does.
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Re: Bahrain politics [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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As I have aged, my politics and view of the world has changed from being a liberal, idealist college student, to a conservative, right-wing business person, to a politically neutral mind-your-own-business attitude. I remember completely supporting the invasion of Iraq and the ouster of Saddam Hussein. Looking back I realize how many mistakes we made and have since created another power vacuum in the middle east being nicely filled by ISIS. Essentially, by getting rid of an "evil dictator" and disbanding his army we created the next Afghanistan.

What's this go to do with Bahrain? Everything. Western countries need to stop looking at Eastern countries and applying Western mentalities and politics. To us, countries that identify women as second class citizens, keep dictators in power by force, and maintain bloody, violent, tribal boundaries seem barbaric and we want to yank them into 2014 and have them suddenly apply the same human rights we have to all people. Western civilization did not evolve that way and Eastern civilization won't either. Does that mean we will continue to have cruelty in the world? Yep. But we have that in Western civilization too. The US Government wrongly imprisons people, tortures people, kills thousands of innocent people every year by drone and airstrike, and supports cruel governments when it suits our fancy but let someone we don't "like" do it and it suddenly becomes verboten to attend a triathlon there.

Does anyone think Iraq is better off today then when Saddam Hussein was using a heavy hand to control tribal and religious violence? Government members were forced to become a non-religious Bath party member. Was life for all in Iraq unicorns and rainbows? Certainly not. But it was far, far more peaceful and stable than it is now. So let's go in to yet another country and get involved in tipping the political scales and then see what happens. It won't be any different than Egypt, Syria, Iraq or any other place the stable, strong government has been eliminated. Chaos. Civil war. Unrest. In this case as in most others, we should MIND OUR OWN BUSINESS. Terrorists aren't attacking us because they don't like our freedom. (Does anyone still believe that line of BS?) They are attacking us because we can't not get involved where we don't belong and continue to play policeman to the world.

The Bahrain triathlon looks like it should be an extraordinary event. It is the kind of purse pros and pro proponents have been clamoring for for years. Let the Bahrainis figure out their politics and just go race.


Pete Githens
Reading, PA
Last edited by: Mr. October: Aug 31, 14 3:24
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Re: Bahrain politics [Maui_] [ In reply to ]
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Maui_ wrote:
The interview seems incomplete. For example when he says this:

"Triathlon is just one little thing we can do to bring to the streets of Bahrain a healthy lifestyle, social development, the unity among the population, the rich and the poor coming together in a triathlon waiting at the finish line."

The logical thing to do would be to question him how he dares to say this when Bahraini women would not be able to participate due to the "dress code." Going to the west to compete and being OK with this difference seems hypocritical.

So you think tomorrow if the Bahraini royal family says "Women can wear whatever they want and compete in triathlon" that Bahrainis will say "Oh. Okay".

It doesn't work like that. This is a deeply ingrained part of culture that isn't going to go away for many, many, many years if ever. We can complain about it all we want but remember even in the US we still have pay inequality, gender bias, and glass ceilings.


Pete Githens
Reading, PA
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Re: Bahrain politics [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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In my head the question became: If I support the Bahrain triathlon, am I part of the solution or part of the problem?

But then that seemed insufficient. It not really either/or, it is both and complex.

Perhaps a helpful stance would be:

How can we make the Bahrain triathlon a tool for change?

They want our support/participation/validation, we want ______________ (women's participation and programs?) from them (besides prize purse).

Advocating for research & treatment for Myalgic Encephalomyelitis (ME).
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(me, to myself, every day)
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Re: Bahrain politics [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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I appreciate the spirit (and, to an extent, content) of the original post and interview, but what I am missing is the critical element. I wasn't expecting a "hard hitting" interview involving in-depth journalism - as you have pointed out, this is not your domain. Having said that, I had hoped for a critical perspective. The sentiment that you and several posters have conveyed is what I would call "hopefully" one-sided. I think that the optimistic perspective is the more or less the productive one, and thus should be encouraged. Would we like to see improvements in Bahrain's human rights record - clearly the answer is "yes". Do such sporting events harbor the potential to bring about a change in perspective in those individuals who participate - I think so. Is the discovery and/or generation of common interests helpful in fostering mutual understanding (especially across cultures) - most certainly. Will sporting events lead to a profound change in a country's human rights record - no, not really. Sport can bring to together, but it is just as capable of dividing and fostering a non-fruitful form of national "one-upmanship" (see Olympic Games during the cold-war).

What is the take away here? I have nothing against this event. If all parties go into the event with open and unbiased eyes, they will probably find the whole experience more enriching. However, "open eyes" also means taking a hard look at the negative aspects (of any group, culture, or nation-state). It is not enough to acknowledge past and current human rights abuses, and then brush them aside because, 'at least they are better than ….', or 'these are unverified allegations'. That is too easy. To simple say that one is 'not dismissing' the human rights abuses is not the same thing as doing justice to them. I admit that it is not easy or comfortable to go down this path because we most likely won't like what we find there. Nonetheless, the critical perspective I referred to above means looking these abuses (or even allegations) in the face, and then drawing consequences. This is what was missing in my opinion.

What consequences do you draw from your research and interview (aside from that we should give this event a chance)? Where do you personally draw the line, i.e. at what point would you change your mind about this event? Does it make a difference that the royal family (i.e. heads of state) is involved in putting on the event? If yes, how might this event by misused? If no, then what convinced you that this joint venture between Challenge and the royal family is not primarily a political tool? These are actual, and not merely rhetorical questions. I have appreciated your even-handed and thoughtful approach to a variety of issues over the years, and look forward to your responses.
Ciao
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Re: Bahrain politics [Mr. October] [ In reply to ]
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As I have aged, my politics and view of the world has changed from being a liberal, idealist college student, to a conservative, right-wing business person, to a politically neutral mind-your-own-business attitude. I remember completely supporting the invasion of Iraq and the ouster of Saddam Hussein. Looking back I realize how many mistakes we made and have since created another power vacuum in the middle east being nicely filled by ISIS. Essentially, by getting rid of an "evil dictator" and disbanding his army we created the next Afghanistan.
What's this go to do with Bahrain? Everything. Western countries need to stop looking at Eastern countries and applying Western mentalities and politics. To us, countries that identify women as second class citizens, keep dictators in power by force, and maintain bloody, violent, tribal boundaries seem barbaric and we want to yank them into 2014 and have them suddenly apply the same human rights we have to all people. Western civilization did not evolve that way and Eastern civilization won't either. Does that mean we will continue to have cruelty in the world? Yep. But we have that in Western civilization too. The US Government wrongly imprisons people, tortures people, kills thousands of innocent people every year by drone and airstrike, and supports cruel governments when it suits our fancy but let someone we don't "like" do it and it suddenly becomes verboten to attend a triathlon there.
X2

Was waiting for this perspective, thank you. Somehow our news cycle and political opportunism creates motion in the wrong direction more often than not. Time for us to start learning that maybe not every country out there is waiting for us to teach them how to do things the "right way."
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Re: Bahrain politics [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Dan referred to Bahrain as a non-oil producer. That is incorrect. Relative to its Gulf state neighbors, Bahrain is a minor player in the industry. However, hydrocarbons remain a key part in Bahrain's economy and by far its largest export. Bahrain produces almost 50,000 bbls of oil per day and has plans to expand its downstream sector. Revenue from the oil and gas sector provides a major portion of government revenue, perhaps more than 50%. Today's oil price is probably below what the Bahrain government needs to balance its books.

Andrew Inkpen
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Re: Bahrain politics [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Thank you for engaging this conversation. These issues - the social side, political side, the personal side, the opinion side are all very complicated. I sure wish I could type better to participate more in this thread.

My views have somewhat swung like a pendulum over the years and I believe that for me age is moderating them. For the 1980 election I was a huge on campus Reagan supporter. How does that square with the thought that Clinton may have been our most effective modern President and that Bush II may have been the worst we have seen for world relations?

It is also apparent views and perspective always vary based on where you are standing. For example, the Arab Spring - I don't know how anyone couldn't see at the time that it was problematic. The interesting part is the politicians that fully supported the Arab Spring and were against some of the protests that were going on back home . . . it is all position and perspective (and political games). Likewise, our invasion of Iraq - what has happened since was totally predictable. If it wasn't what we/they wanted, then the initial decision was not wise and/or was politically motivated. Should their athletes boycott us?

It is hard for us to fully understand the views of others, and them the views of us. What do others think when they see our situation in Ferguson? Can foreigners trust our law enforcement? Can law enforcement trust us? Should athletes avoid the US based on these sort of situations (which happen all the time)?

Athletics and competition have always been a great ambassador, and yet the political folks like to use it as just another pawn in the game. I had several friends that missed the chance of a lifetime for the 1980 Olympics. That was devastating, shameful, and the politicians never understood the damage they did - micro and macro.

I like to think, and believe (idealist jumping out here) that competition is usually good despite politics. Competition with the Iraq soccer team is good for both sides. Competition can be an ambassador. The (fair) pursuit of health and fitness is universally positive.

Non-agendized discussion of these issues is positive. Certainly we better by having understanding and perspective on them. Hopefully we also remember that we are ambassadors here at home too - individually and collectively.

Sorry for the poor typing and abbreviated development of thoughts....

David
* Ironman for Life! (Blog) * IM Everyday Hero Video * Daggett Shuler Law *
Disclaimer: I have personal and professional relationships with many athletes, vendors, and organizations in the triathlon world.
Last edited by: david: Aug 31, 14 4:59
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Re: Bahrain politics [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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devashish_paul wrote:
Where do you cut the line?

I don't think it's too hard, or unreasonable, to draw a line that exists somewhere between "a couple of hundred years ago" and "now". Claiming that we, as a country, are no better than another on human rights is absurd. That would be like saying England is our enemy now because we fought them in the the War of 1812.

The point is, ladies and gentleman, that speed, for lack of a better word, is good. Speed is right, Speed works. Speed clarifies, cuts through, and captures the essence of the evolutionary spirit.
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Re: Bahrain politics [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Regarding the "Arab Spring"

Has anyone ever considered that there is a reason that ENTIRE REIGON of the world does not have democracy and fair and equatable treatemnt of people who live there???

That reason is not the idea attached to the failed theory of "NATION BUILDING" in which we show up like a traveling salesman and give a demonstration on how a living breathing democratic nation works with a constutional government.

The host nation collectavle says "oh wow how wonderful!!!!" And then immediatly adopts a new and wonderfull way of life.

These parts of the world are aware of what democratic government is. The people in charge AND the vast majority of the population DO NOT WANT democracy, fair and equatable treatment for everyone in their "country" civil rights for women and minorities in their country and any type of civilization that has progressed beyond the 17th century.

Most Arab states are not even real countries. They are lines drawn on a map around realestate to eother include or exclude valuable areas because of oil reserves.

100 years ago Before oil was discovered in that part of the world these "countries" did not exist. There were tribes, clans and family bands riding around on horses and calels cutting off each others heads with swords. In my extremley biased view not much has changed except they have augmented their way of life with some western trappings.
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Re: Bahrain politics [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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World politics aren't a simple as some folks on here seem to believe. This isn't a playground, where you can simply choose not to play with a kid you don't like or the bully you want to avoid. There are countries all over the Middle East, Africa, Europe and Asia whom we strongly disagree with as a nation. When I was in Afghanistan, there was a unit from Jordan, one of our allies, on Kandahar to help support the NATO mission. Some of the things they did, were disgusting and appalling on the deepest level. Yet they're our allies and we worked with them.

If you don't want to support Muslim countries, never go to a gas station again. Don't buy any product with plastic in it, or any other product containing petroleum byproducts (which is almost everything). The hypocrites who are bashing Dan for this article are equally guilty for supporting Bahrain and other similar governments. While the majority of the hydrocarbon utilized in the US & Canada is domestic, we still send a huge amount of money to those countries in exchange for oil.

Yes, many of these countries actions make us feel uncomfortable. I don't like it either. But if we can't help support the more progressive of the Muslim countries and build alliances in the area, then we will instead end up with an entire region of enemies. We can't expect them to progress to Western standards overnight...or even ever, considering how deeply their standards are based on Islam. But turning our backs on Bahrain, Jordan, Azerbaijan, etc., is a guaranteed way to ensure they never make any progress.

Anyway, it's great to have a serious debate about this. I'd just like to see those critical of Dan provide some real input and not just attacks.



-Andrew
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Re: Bahrain politics [Toby] [ In reply to ]
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Toby wrote:
devashish_paul wrote:
Where do you cut the line?


I don't think it's too hard, or unreasonable, to draw a line that exists somewhere between "a couple of hundred years ago" and "now". Claiming that we, as a country, are no better than another on human rights is absurd. That would be like saying England is our enemy now because we fought them in the the War of 1812.

Yes, but don't you think that we would have a hard time cutting the line even today? All those cheap goods we buy at Walmart, or our mobile phones put together by migrant workers over at Foxconn for pennies per hour. How much do we have a part in that. Or the pollution in the Pearl River Delta? Is that a problem China created, or are we really the root cause of the problem. You see, we're often engaged just as badly as the root reason why others treat our fellow humans badly. Using the gauge of not reporting on the Bahraini tri, we should have not reported on the Beijing Olympics either and I am sure there are some polynesian groups who don't like that we have occupied the big island of Kona and run around there every October in lycra. Why are we even competing against Russian athletes. They were just racing at the ITU WC championships as well as at the US Open.

Let the athletes play, let's cover the races, and let's use sport to positively affect change. Actually boycotting sport, as others have pointed out, does less to forward positive momentum in human relations than going ahead and racing/playing. For those of us whose friends were unable to race at the 1980 Moscow Olympics, or those who were the prisoners inside their own Apartheid regime unable to compete internationally, we know their story. Fortunately we managed to get the likes of Zola Budd, Simon Lessing, or a bit later Frankie Fredricks (able to sprint for Independent Namibia and won 4 Olympic Silvers), all or whom would have not been able to compete in the apartheid years. Later black men would be instrumental in bringing the Rugby World Cup back to South Africa and Mandela was adamant that they keep the Springbok name for the team. In 1994, I shared a hotel (Team Canada and Team South Africa) in New Zealand at the ITU Worlds. It was one of the first championships where the South Africans had a full team. Frankly I would say I was a bit cautious to engage as I did not know what to expect (being a person who is not white and the media had made them all to be racist pricks.....which was far from reality). I was floored by how welcoming they were. At one point, one wise guy Canadian, in an open lobby asked the South Africans, "Where are all the black guys on your time?". With instant wit and auto fire and without hesitation he replied back, "Where are all the black guys on the Canadian team"....and he was right.

The point is, it is just to easy to judge individuals and paint entire societies and it is really really difficult to know where to draw the line. I won't draw the line, in China because I have many good friends and business associates in that country. For everything we see being bad in China, they can list something that we're screwing the world on. Does not mean I like everything there, and I certainly don't like all aspects of the Middle East.

Having spent the early part of my life as a servicemen, with the goal of killing the guy on the other side of the ideology, my wish in life, is that humans can get along better and treat each other with respect and dignity. I feel, I can do more in my life through sport than I could programming computers of F-18 to fire armament for widespread mutilating destruction.

So I want Slowman to cover pretty well every tri on the planet. It is our community's tool to build bridges. I've been on the positive side of sport building bridges myself all over the world and seen the positive fruit.
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Re: Bahrain politics [AndrewPhx] [ In reply to ]
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from what i understand, oil pumped out of the ground represents maybe a tenth of bahrain's GDP and that is expected to run out in about a decade. yes, they do produce natural gas.

they do make a significant amount of money off petroleum, but much of that is in refining. you can produce no oil at all and still be a significant refiner. natural gas, refining, aluminum production, banking and finance are the basis of its economy.

so, does bahrain pump oil? yes. about the same amount as south korea and cuba. a little more than poland. a little less than the netherlands and new zealand. it would take 70 bahrains to pump as much oil as it's neighbor the UAE.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: Bahrain politics [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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when my grandfather moved from ireland to london in the early 1960's as a migrant laborer (he was a carpenter) it was not at all uncommon to see signs in boarding houses that said "no blacks, no dogs, no irish".

That was close to 100 years after the start of the suffragette movement, women getting the vote 1916-17 and emily dickinson throwing herself under one of the kings horses.

I've lived in the GCC for four years now, I work for a large organisation, I am a sponsored worker in a slightly more conservative state than Bahrain.

My experience in the past four years of the nationals who I have met and with whom I work - both male and female, has been positive, as has my wifes. That said we have friends who have not had the same experience, or have felt differently about the experience they have had. This is not to say that we do not see the media, or first hand, many of the things that appear in the papers, or that we are naive about the life many individuals have.

That said, I dont think any of the members of the GCC would meet the "slowtwitch doctrine" test, none of them are naive enough to think that they can somehow avoid media scrutiny by buying it off or stopping something from being reported. One only has to look at the long list of things that have come out in recent years to realise that whilst they might not want things in the media they cant stop it. See MOMA in Abu Dhabi, the World Cup, Zaha Hadid, F1 in Bahrain.

I've been here for four years, and in that time the place has changed immeasurably, but thats a tiny fraction of the length of time that cities such as London, NY or Paris have taken to evolve and it needs to be recognised that these countries are very young (ignoring a debate about how borders were set out), that they came in to a ton of cash, that the ability to spend the cash outpaces the ability to develop structures within which to spend it in a controlled way; health and safety, industrial regulations, environmental legislation and thats ignoring how long societies take to change their views on "blacks, dogs and irish" as the signs in london boarding houses used to say.

Today it would be a complete anathema to see a sign like this, but it was only 40-50 years ago that racial discrimination was not just accepted but positively encouraged in the media with comedy shows - certainly in the UK - playing up all the stereotypes.

I dont think there is any doubt that there is work to be done - but it wont change by failing to engage with people.

On a slightly separate note - I think Dan's example of the conflict between supporting a ruling minority which support womens rights and allowing a democratic party which oppose it is bang on the money. These are not straightforward issues in the region, many of these countries leaders, are young, well educated - usually in the west, almost all the young males have been to Sandhurst, they are not unfamiliar with western values but at the same time they are having to juggle the wishes of conservatives who think the region is liberalising to quickly and progressives who think its not going fast enough and which ever path they choose, you can rest assured someone within the country and many without will be annoyed.
Last edited by: Andrewmc: Aug 31, 14 8:53
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Re: Bahrain politics [Andrewmc] [ In reply to ]
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Bahrain not only brutally suppressed protestors, they even arrested doctors and nurses who treated the injured protestors, Bahrain is as bad as it gets, only reason its not syria is because they and their allies have the cash to pay off the right people, plus its shias protesting who ISIS hates, just because they are more progressive than many in the region doesnt change things, the reason you dont hear about them more is that as dan stated, they have U.S. military bases on their land and have gas, the U.S. government will not say anything bad about them except things like how they are "deeply concerned". the compliant U.S. media then barely says anything about it too, all anyone wants to do is tell us how bad Iran is, Iran is the most enlightened country in the region, they unlike the gulf states/U.S. client states dont just sit back and do everything the U.S. tells them to, so that makes them evil apparently while the gulf state monarchies fund terror groups or dont do anything about their citizens funding terror groups, as for the triathlon, its up to each person, that military base is in such a strategic location that nothing is going to change in u.s. policy, so a boycott of bahrain wont do much
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Re: Bahrain politics [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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devashish_paul wrote:
Toby wrote:
devashish_paul wrote:
Where do you cut the line?


I don't think it's too hard, or unreasonable, to draw a line that exists somewhere between "a couple of hundred years ago" and "now". Claiming that we, as a country, are no better than another on human rights is absurd. That would be like saying England is our enemy now because we fought them in the the War of 1812.


Yes, but don't you think that we would have a hard time cutting the line even today? All those cheap goods we buy at Walmart, or our mobile phones put together by migrant workers over at Foxconn for pennies per hour. How much do we have a part in that. Or the pollution in the Pearl River Delta? Is that a problem China created, or are we really the root cause of the problem. You see, we're often engaged just as badly as the root reason why others treat our fellow humans badly. Using the gauge of not reporting on the Bahraini tri, we should have not reported on the Beijing Olympics either and I am sure there are some polynesian groups who don't like that we have occupied the big island of Kona and run around there every October in lycra. Why are we even competing against Russian athletes. They were just racing at the ITU WC championships as well as at the US Open.

Let the athletes play, let's cover the races, and let's use sport to positively affect change. Actually boycotting sport, as others have pointed out, does less to forward positive momentum in human relations than going ahead and racing/playing. For those of us whose friends were unable to race at the 1980 Moscow Olympics, or those who were the prisoners inside their own Apartheid regime unable to compete internationally, we know their story. Fortunately we managed to get the likes of Zola Budd, Simon Lessing, or a bit later Frankie Fredricks (able to sprint for Independent Namibia and won 4 Olympic Silvers), all or whom would have not been able to compete in the apartheid years. Later black men would be instrumental in bringing the Rugby World Cup back to South Africa and Mandela was adamant that they keep the Springbok name for the team. In 1994, I shared a hotel (Team Canada and Team South Africa) in New Zealand at the ITU Worlds. It was one of the first championships where the South Africans had a full team. Frankly I would say I was a bit cautious to engage as I did not know what to expect (being a person who is not white and the media had made them all to be racist pricks.....which was far from reality). I was floored by how welcoming they were. At one point, one wise guy Canadian, in an open lobby asked the South Africans, "Where are all the black guys on your time?". With instant wit and auto fire and without hesitation he replied back, "Where are all the black guys on the Canadian team"....and he was right.

The point is, it is just to easy to judge individuals and paint entire societies and it is really really difficult to know where to draw the line. I won't draw the line, in China because I have many good friends and business associates in that country. For everything we see being bad in China, they can list something that we're screwing the world on. Does not mean I like everything there, and I certainly don't like all aspects of the Middle East.

Having spent the early part of my life as a servicemen, with the goal of killing the guy on the other side of the ideology, my wish in life, is that humans can get along better and treat each other with respect and dignity. I feel, I can do more in my life through sport than I could programming computers of F-18 to fire armament for widespread mutilating destruction.

So I want Slowman to cover pretty well every tri on the planet. It is our community's tool to build bridges. I've been on the positive side of sport building bridges myself all over the world and seen the positive fruit.

I do thoroughly agree that boycotting a sporting event is pointless, and more openness helps more than less in any such circumstance (look at the difference between North Korea and Vietnam, for example), but I was strictly responding to your position that it was too hard to "draw the line". It really, really isn't - there's a world of difference between an action taken by a current member of the ruling family and historical actions. Claiming otherwise is tantamount to sons being responsible for the sins of their fathers. Yes, Americans have done awful things, especially in the past, with the Trail of Tears and the Japanese internment camps being but two example. Nonetheless, the people who made those decisions have not been in charge for a long time, and are, of course, mostly if not all dead even in the latter case. Am I, as an American, responsible for that? Was Bush, or is Obama, who whoever comes next? If not, there's a very clear line. If so... that's troubling (and we need to go back and re-invade Germany, and England, and France). The ease and clarity of the line was my only point.

The point is, ladies and gentleman, that speed, for lack of a better word, is good. Speed is right, Speed works. Speed clarifies, cuts through, and captures the essence of the evolutionary spirit.
Quote Reply
Re: Bahrain politics [Toby] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Toby wrote:
devashish_paul wrote:
Toby wrote:
devashish_paul wrote:
Where do you cut the line?


I don't think it's too hard, or unreasonable, to draw a line that exists somewhere between "a couple of hundred years ago" and "now". Claiming that we, as a country, are no better than another on human rights is absurd. That would be like saying England is our enemy now because we fought them in the the War of 1812.


Yes, but don't you think that we would have a hard time cutting the line even today? All those cheap goods we buy at Walmart, or our mobile phones put together by migrant workers over at Foxconn for pennies per hour. How much do we have a part in that. Or the pollution in the Pearl River Delta? Is that a problem China created, or are we really the root cause of the problem. You see, we're often engaged just as badly as the root reason why others treat our fellow humans badly. Using the gauge of not reporting on the Bahraini tri, we should have not reported on the Beijing Olympics either and I am sure there are some polynesian groups who don't like that we have occupied the big island of Kona and run around there every October in lycra. Why are we even competing against Russian athletes. They were just racing at the ITU WC championships as well as at the US Open.

Let the athletes play, let's cover the races, and let's use sport to positively affect change. Actually boycotting sport, as others have pointed out, does less to forward positive momentum in human relations than going ahead and racing/playing. For those of us whose friends were unable to race at the 1980 Moscow Olympics, or those who were the prisoners inside their own Apartheid regime unable to compete internationally, we know their story. Fortunately we managed to get the likes of Zola Budd, Simon Lessing, or a bit later Frankie Fredricks (able to sprint for Independent Namibia and won 4 Olympic Silvers), all or whom would have not been able to compete in the apartheid years. Later black men would be instrumental in bringing the Rugby World Cup back to South Africa and Mandela was adamant that they keep the Springbok name for the team. In 1994, I shared a hotel (Team Canada and Team South Africa) in New Zealand at the ITU Worlds. It was one of the first championships where the South Africans had a full team. Frankly I would say I was a bit cautious to engage as I did not know what to expect (being a person who is not white and the media had made them all to be racist pricks.....which was far from reality). I was floored by how welcoming they were. At one point, one wise guy Canadian, in an open lobby asked the South Africans, "Where are all the black guys on your time?". With instant wit and auto fire and without hesitation he replied back, "Where are all the black guys on the Canadian team"....and he was right.

The point is, it is just to easy to judge individuals and paint entire societies and it is really really difficult to know where to draw the line. I won't draw the line, in China because I have many good friends and business associates in that country. For everything we see being bad in China, they can list something that we're screwing the world on. Does not mean I like everything there, and I certainly don't like all aspects of the Middle East.

Having spent the early part of my life as a servicemen, with the goal of killing the guy on the other side of the ideology, my wish in life, is that humans can get along better and treat each other with respect and dignity. I feel, I can do more in my life through sport than I could programming computers of F-18 to fire armament for widespread mutilating destruction.

So I want Slowman to cover pretty well every tri on the planet. It is our community's tool to build bridges. I've been on the positive side of sport building bridges myself all over the world and seen the positive fruit.


I do thoroughly agree that boycotting a sporting event is pointless, and more openness helps more than less in any such circumstance (look at the difference between North Korea and Vietnam, for example), but I was strictly responding to your position that it was too hard to "draw the line". It really, really isn't - there's a world of difference between an action taken by a current member of the ruling family and historical actions. Claiming otherwise is tantamount to sons being responsible for the sins of their fathers. Yes, Americans have done awful things, especially in the past, with the Trail of Tears and the Japanese internment camps being but two example. Nonetheless, the people who made those decisions have not been in charge for a long time, and are, of course, mostly if not all dead even in the latter case. Am I, as an American, responsible for that? Was Bush, or is Obama, who whoever comes next? If not, there's a very clear line. If so... that's troubling (and we need to go back and re-invade Germany, and England, and France). The ease and clarity of the line was my only point.

I know what you are saying. But as an example I was a serviceman when Canadian Soldiers, beat and tortured Somali teens. That was just a short time ago, and in the same year, lots of athletes came and raced in Canada at Ironman Canada or ITU races in our country. Should people from other countries boycott the races in Canada simply because I was from the same organization from which one of the members conducted said beatings that were all over the national/international media? The point, is even right today (likely right now), no country is immune from their citizens doing bad things. That's really my point in terms of drawing the line. We might not like what is happening in some Gulf states while others in that part of the world might not like what is going on Missouri. I suppose the question is whether the ruling clan in Bahrain is just using sport as a PR screen (in the vein of the 1936 Olympics as Dan pointed out) or do they truly want to use sport for the betterment of society. If it is the latter, then sport in their country may co exist with some bad guy behavior by officials of the government as it does in your country or mine but hopefully we all can use sport to build bridges, set examples, exchange thoughts and concepts, and perhaps learn from each other.

I am not sure that western style democracy works in every society (or is appropriate given the culture and religious doctrines of each place) so for us to project that this is the way to roll may not be totally appropriate (yet). Amazingly it works to some degree in India (at least all governments have been elected by universal suffrage since 1947), while a few kilometers next door it does not work that well in Pakistan where they seem to have their periodic military coups that you can time like Haley's comet, albeit far more frequently. Societies morph, change and potentially advance over time. It's almost 400 years that English society has advanced since the time of Oliver Cromwell, but if you look at him from the perspective of Irish or Scottish history, the man was responsible for some of the largest genocides, but was hailed as a fairly heroic figure by many English historians. Sometimes, it depends on which side you are looking at things from, and whose history and politics one wants to read/interpret/believe.
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Re: Bahrain politics [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Just a general thought to this thread.

It appears that Bahrain has already had something like 3 triathlons per year. I hope we can all agree that this is a good development. Next step for any local community is to host a bigger triathlon. They are doing that, and pulling in the international community seemingly to help raise the profile of triathlon locally. We had the same effect in Mont Tremblant. They had local events there for years, and not that many local athletes even bothered racing. Then they brought Ironman in, and we have 3000 athletes, both local and international racing there 2x per year. Having the big event in Tremblant is getting our people off the couch and signing up to race an Ironman.

If for a moment we put politics aside and just look at the triathlon development side of things, pulling a big Challenge event, should raise the profile of the sport both locally and internationally, hopefully pulling more local athletes in to play. We can agree this is a good thing from a sport development angle. Should people in other cultures be deprived of the opportunity for our sport to have a big presence in their neighbourhood. When Ironman Lake Placid was put in LP, local IM participation grew exponentially. No more need to get on a plane and fly to Penticton. Same deal in Madison, or Panama City, or Tremblant etc. Bahrain is getting their turn.
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Re: Bahrain politics [monty] [ In reply to ]
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I think you mis-understood what I said was absurd. I agree with you that US athletes participate in competitions in countries with records of human rights abuses as bad as Bahrain. But some, including Dan, have asked whether we have the moral standing to criticize Bahrain when we ourselves are not perfect. And perfect we certainly are not. But the thing is, no one is perfect, so if we go by that logic, then no one can criticize abuses by anyone else. The US is better than virtually any major power in the history of the world when it comes to respecting individual rights and freedoms. If we cannot criticize the brutal treatment of peaceful promoters of democracy by members of the royal family who are above the law, then who can? There needs to be a balancing force in the world.

-------------
Ed O'Malley
www.VeloVetta.com
Founder of VeloVetta Cycling Shoes
Instagram • Facebook
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Re: Bahrain politics [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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I'm not advocating that we boycott the race or that Slowtwitch does not cover it. But many are making the argument that having various athletes come together and race in Bahrain will promote better treatment of its citizens. If we do not engage them in the controversial issues, I do not see how change could be made. So I say, yes, let's race, let's cover it, let the different people of the world interact, but let's also ask the hard questions - even though it makes them and us uncomfortable. Otherwise all we are doing is giving them our stamp of approval and promoting the status quo.

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Ed O'Malley
www.VeloVetta.com
Founder of VeloVetta Cycling Shoes
Instagram • Facebook
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Re: Bahrain politics [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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did you know that 400 people showed up for the national triathlon championships this year? in iran? for just over $200 you can fly round trip between the countries. i wonder what would happen a bunch of triathletes from both iran and israel happened to show up at challenge bahrain. you might think this a naive dream, but do you know that for the past 5 years, until last year, bahrain's ambassador to the united states was a jewish woman?

if we can have been diplomacy i don't know why we can have triathlon diplomacy.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: Bahrain politics [TheGupster] [ In reply to ]
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TheGupster wrote:
RowToTri wrote:
After being rebuffed on the front page article has a "hit and run" I am coming here. So, I see the question as "should we support the Bahraini royal family members who seem to love triathlon so much?". The fact is, Nasser bin Hamad Al Khalifa, one of the prime members of the royal family triathlon team - Saqer even mentioned him in the article - personally locked up and beat members of the Bahraini sports teams (which he oversees) for participating in a peaceful protest for democracy. Attempting to create a moral equivalency between that and the failures of the US to sometimes live up to our ideals is absurd. Could you imagine the son of a president of the United States having a peaceful protestor locked up at his direction, going in to the jail with a bat and beating them bloody? This is something we cannot just ignore because they decided to give half a million dollars to some pro triathletes and they seem to really really like racing triathlons themselves. If we cannot take a stand against this behavior, even if it is to merely ask one single question about it when we have the guy's attention, what is it that we can stand up for, other than prize money?


In America, money talks. All that other stuff is irrelevant.

I'm not sure if Dan went to college. But if he did, I'm sure he failed Business Ethics 101. Money should not trump all, but in triathlon, unfortunately, it does. The mainstream media, like Dan and ST, are proving this.
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Re: Bahrain politics [RowToTri] [ In reply to ]
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so if we go by that logic, then no one can criticize abuses by anyone else//

I don't think anyone here is saying don't criticize. In fact dan has written articles voicing that criticism. What i'm saying is do not use these incidents to squash sport in different countries. It is going to be immensely easier for countries like Bahrain to start to be more female inclusive if they have some small start or foothold, and sport is usually where that begins. You do not have to go that far back(in my lifetime) and women were not allowed in many sports, running the boston marathon for example. It was deemed to hard and difficult for the female constitution. Mind you, this was my generation saying that, and i'm not that old yet. Go back just a few more decades and women were 2nd class citizens here, not able to vote or have much of a say in anything. Go back just a bit further and they could not own land and in many cases were slaves to their husbands.


So is this just human nature and eventually all cultures will evolve from this type of thinking? It appears to me to be that way, and we just got out in front of it sooner(and later in some cases) that the middle eastern countries. It is easy for some to just say change it now, it would be the right thing to do. But i don't see it that way. The opposing majority in these countries want to go backwards on womens rights, so this democracy experiment we have instituted there is failing miserably. I say lets help them see how it should be by example, and let them take the baby steps they need to in order to keep the arrow pointed in the right direction. We had that in many of the other Arab spring nations, then all of a sudden our forced democracy voted in factions that did the exact opposite of what we would have liked to have achieved there. Basically set thing back several decades, and only time will tell now if and when it gets back on track where it was.
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Re: Bahrain politics [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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I agree with Paul.

We can't tie all of those living inside a certain country (or kingdom) to everything that goes on inside its borders.

I was in Bahrain for 10 days recently and it was not what I expected. Yes they have different rights and a culture very different from our own but that culture has been cultivated for years and years. The overall feeling I took away was a large acceptance of a wide variety of cultures. While some of the people there are strictly living by traditional beliefs, there are plenty of progressive people as well and there was no anamosity present between the different cultures.

I think it's definitely important to know and understand the basic politics/culture of a country before visiting but as others have said, if we refused to support or provide coverage of sporting events that take place in, or have athletes from, countries that have beliefs or practices we consider wrong or unjust based on our own beliefs.... there would be very little sport at all. Including here in the US of course. We can't say we won't support or cover a race in a place like Bahrain while at the same time holding the Hawaii Ironman in highest regard.
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Re: Bahrain politics [RowToTri] [ In reply to ]
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"let's also ask the hard questions - even though it makes them and us uncomfortable. Otherwise all we are doing is giving them our stamp of approval and promoting the status quo."

you are absolutely right. i think a lot of people who were convinced that bahrain "
is as bad as it gets", as one person wrote earlier in this thread might now understand that, no, it is not as bad as it gets, not by any measure, not by any organization that dispassionately looks at human rights in the region.

at the same time, a lot of people who might not have ever known that there is a dark side to bahrain's treatment of a class or classes of protestors during its arab spring uprising 2 years ago now know, and they know enough to investigate further if they so choose.

when i began this thread i reminded people that this is a triathlon site. so, what's sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander. if i'm going to accompany coverage of bahrain's triathlon with bahrain's civil rights, fine. but do i do that only for bahrain? can i only report on ironman cairns if i also report on the fate of aborigines and torres straight islanders? and in the U.S.? do we only cover the halfmax championship in missouri if we also cover ferguson?

hence the slowtwitch doctrine... which does not mean we do not mention the political or human rights issues, rather that it's easy to become the ugly american in our selective coverage of civil rights.


Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
Last edited by: Slowman: Aug 31, 14 11:03
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Re: Bahrain politics [Toby] [ In reply to ]
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Toby wrote:
devashish_paul wrote:
Where do you cut the line?

I don't think it's too hard, or unreasonable, to draw a line that exists somewhere between "a couple of hundred years ago" and "now". Claiming that we, as a country, are no better than another on human rights is absurd. That would be like saying England is our enemy now because we fought them in the the War of 1812.

+1. I think present time is a pretty easy place to draw the line.I think Dan and Dev and everyone else in support of Bahrain fail to realize that human rights violations are still happening in Bahrain RIGHT NOW. It's almost like they're delusional...
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Re: Bahrain politics [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Slowman wrote:
did you know that 400 people showed up for the national triathlon championships this year? in iran? for just over $200 you can fly round trip between the countries. i wonder what would happen a bunch of triathletes from both iran and israel happened to show up at challenge bahrain. you might think this a naive dream, but do you know that for the past 5 years, until last year, bahrain's ambassador to the united states was a jewish woman?

if we can have been diplomacy i don't know why we can have triathlon diplomacy.

See the first example I posted in this thread about triathlon diplomacy, or sport diplomacy...taking off our Armed Forces uniforms, be the countries foes or friends and then putting on our triathlon lycra and realizing that we're all actually quite the same. What is interesting is that "triathlon culture, basically can span all ideologies across nations" (I use triathlon, but it can be sport. A 100m sprinter from Jamaica, Iran, China Russia and Ukraine are more than likely in their minds first a 100m sprinter, then a national of their country. As an athlete, you develop the DNA for your sport, and the guys in the other country have the exact same sport DNA.....this bridge then allows us to more readily understand our differences. I remember talking to a Khazak military athlete who before joining the Army was a bricklayer. His entire family for several generations were from Russia and then transplanted to Khazakstan. Triathlon was his ticket to a better life in the Army and a better life outside of the Army. When he later had a doping positive late in his career after becoming an ITU world champion, I was not entirely surprised by the path he took. Sport had given him a better life, and he took the path to economic success. On my side, I was not a bricklayer, had a good life in the Canadian forces and had a few engineering degrees and did not have a big enough engine to even think about going the path that my Khazak competition did. It gave me exposure to another socio-economic perspective, that from my fairly affluent North American view I may have not otherwise understood. Still does not change him stealing a world championship from Simon Lessing, but at least I understood what drove this man.

Expose through sport, to different backgrounds and cultures is a good thing. Our common "sport DNA" allows us to connect. Then we can use that bridge to understand and analyse differences. Perhaps explain our perspective, while hearing theirs, and learning from both sides.
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Re: Bahrain politics [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Slowman wrote:
" can i only report on ironman cairns if i also report on the fate of aborigines and torres straight islanders? and in the U.S.? do we only cover the halfmax championship in missouri if we also cover ferguson?


I understand where you're coming from, but what makes human rights abuses particularly relevant to triathlon in Bahrain is that one of the primary triathlon officials in Bahrain is accused of beating athletes. I'm not aware of such a situation in Australia or the US.

-------------
Ed O'Malley
www.VeloVetta.com
Founder of VeloVetta Cycling Shoes
Instagram • Facebook
Quote Reply
Re: Bahrain politics [jkp07] [ In reply to ]
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jkp07 wrote:
Toby wrote:
devashish_paul wrote:
Where do you cut the line?

I don't think it's too hard, or unreasonable, to draw a line that exists somewhere between "a couple of hundred years ago" and "now". Claiming that we, as a country, are no better than another on human rights is absurd. That would be like saying England is our enemy now because we fought them in the the War of 1812.


+1. I think present time is a pretty easy place to draw the line.I think Dan and Dev and everyone else in support of Bahrain fail to realize that human rights violations are still happening in Bahrain RIGHT NOW. It's almost like they're delusional...

Fair, I am not saying they are not going on in Bahrain. But do you think there are zero human rights violations going on in the US, or Canada, or China, or Russia RIGHT NOW? ZERO? That's mainly my point about drawing the line. Let's play on with sport, and use it to influence and build bridges. There are bad guys everywhere, and we can't change them by hating them, but can by going in, understanding perspectives, influencing and building bridges. We should have kicked out all Russian athletes this weekend at Edmonton ITU or the US Open at Flushing Meadows using the same logic but we did not.



By the way, there is a big difference between supporting sport in Bahrain from the regime's actions in Bahrain. I don't necessarily like all this or the past regime's actions in Washington, but I support the sport in Kona.
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Re: Bahrain politics [RowToTri] [ In reply to ]
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"I understand where you're coming from, but what makes human rights abuses particularly relevant to triathlon in Bahrain is that one of the primary triathlon officials in Bahrain is accused of beating athletes. I'm not aware of such a situation in Australia or the US."

yes, i understand this. and that's why i started this thread. just appending the interview i linked to our first story on this as further reading. in that story i reference this.

now, then, let's move forward to the interview. i story-boarded this interview, before the interview. let's say i ask this question. then i get the reply. and the reply is the other side of the story. and then i ... what? ask what? what would you have me ask? because i'm going to get the truth, or the spin, or whatever i'm going to get, from the bahraini side. and unless what i get is, "hey, we fucked up," (which would have been a great get, but i don't think that's what i would have gotten) if i just let the reply stand unchallenged then i'm going to get accused of lobbing softballs to the bahrainis. so i thought it best not to give the opportunity in the interview for just one side to be given.

now, you might then say, "well, why not give the other side?" which i could. when i wrote the article on starkowicz in abu dhabi i was contacted by the bahraini opposition. so i have that contact. but i don't know how to parse between what's true and what's not. it would require a much deeper dive into what's really going on in bahrain.

so, let's say i do that deep dive. do slowtwitchers want to read it? maybe. maybe so. and, to your point, a u.s. state dept official was expelled recently from bahrain for meeting with al wefaq. now, there's another side to this story too. but you only get one chance to make a first impression, and i thought that, while not hiding the allegation against HH Shaikh Nasser bin Hamad Al Khalifa, it would not be productive to make certain i'll never be able to write, investigate, understand, get to know, the bahrainis at all right in the beginning through insulting them. especially bearing in mind that i, and my entire country, and it's entire leadership, grossly misunderstood and miscalculate the arab spring revolt. i thought it best to maybe walk a bit more softly, at least early on.

i do not fault anyone who thinks my approach naive or wrongheaded. but i did think it appropriate to explain my thinking to our readers, as we have an intelligent and knowledgeable set of readers and i also did not want to insult them (you).

when i made my hit-and-run and drive-by comments i didn't know that you (on facebook) were you (on the forum). what i fully expected was a number of bahrain human rights folks trolling the internet looking for opportunities. "janet" being a case in point. my intent, nevertheless, was to engage them in a discussion on the forum should they so choose. janet obviously chose otherwise.


Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
Quote Reply
Re: Bahrain politics [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Slowman wrote:
from what i understand, oil pumped out of the ground represents maybe a tenth of bahrain's GDP and that is expected to run out in about a decade. yes, they do produce natural gas.

they do make a significant amount of money off petroleum, but much of that is in refining. you can produce no oil at all and still be a significant refiner. natural gas, refining, aluminum production, banking and finance are the basis of its economy.

so, does bahrain pump oil? yes. about the same amount as south korea and cuba. a little more than poland. a little less than the netherlands and new zealand. it would take 70 bahrains to pump as much oil as it's neighbor the UAE.

The key point with respect to oil is is that oil generates more than 50% of government revenue. When the oil is gone where does the government gets its money to support its social programs and infrastructure projects? Dubai faced that problem and needed bailouts from its fellow Emirates. As to refining - nobody makes much money from refining and certainly not in Bahrain.
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Re: Bahrain politics [AndrewPhx] [ In reply to ]
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"The key point with respect to oil is is that oil generates more than 50% of government revenue."

i will defer to you because you have first hand knowledge. i am relying on only what i've read, that oil production is 11 percent of GDP. however, you're right, it's a ton of government revenue because oil, gas, etc., are taxed at 46 percent while there is no income tax at all.

"When the oil is gone where does the government gets its money to support its social programs and infrastructure projects?"

triathlon, obviously.


Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: Bahrain politics [AndrewPhx] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Just imagine how peaceful earth would be if there were no religion. No unsupported comic book dictating how people should act based upon the wishes of some character that may or may not exist. If we just treated others how we'd like to be treated, without the intervention of some fictional character, this world would be an amazing place.

_________________________________
The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design.
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Re: Bahrain politics [TheGupster] [ In reply to ]
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TheGupster wrote:
Just imagine how peaceful earth would be if there were no religion. No unsupported comic book dictating how people should act based upon the wishes of some character that may or may not exist. If we just treated others how we'd like to be treated, without the intervention of some fictional character, this world would be an amazing place.

Ummmm.... no.... I think social democrats (aka Nazis) tried that in Germany as well as Bolsheviks (aka commies) in the former USSR. turned out great!!!! no religion!
Quote Reply
Re: Bahrain politics [Bypasskid] [ In reply to ]
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Bypasskid wrote:
TheGupster wrote:
Just imagine how peaceful earth would be if there were no religion. No unsupported comic book dictating how people should act based upon the wishes of some character that may or may not exist. If we just treated others how we'd like to be treated, without the intervention of some fictional character, this world would be an amazing place.



Ummmm.... no.... I think social democrats (aka Nazis) tried that in Germany as well as Bolsheviks (aka commies) in the former USSR. turned out great!!!! no religion!

You are talking extermination. Big difference. I'm just if there were no religion, anywhere, earth would be more peaceful. I'm speaking hypothetically. Of course we are stuck with the religious cancer and it's not going anywhere. But remove that component of hate, and the earth is a much better place.

_________________________________
The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design.
Quote Reply
Re: Bahrain politics [TheGupster] [ In reply to ]
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>You are talking extermination. Big difference. I'm just if there were no religion, anywhere, earth would be more peaceful..

Not to go all all Lavender Room, but my perception is that religion is just a vehicle through which land, power, and cultural politics play out. Those same politics play out in purely secular arenas as well. And I say this just having gotten back from a Bad Religion concert in full atheist mode. :)
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Re: Bahrain politics [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Slowman wrote:
"The key point with respect to oil is is that oil generates more than 50% of government revenue."

i will defer to you because you have first hand knowledge. i am relying on only what i've read, that oil production is 11 percent of GDP. however, you're right, it's a ton of government revenue because oil, gas, etc., are taxed at 46 percent while there is no income tax at all.

"When the oil is gone where does the government gets its money to support its social programs and infrastructure projects?"

triathlon, obviously.

Oil & Gas revenue is 86% of the budget revenue. You can get this off of the Bahrain Ministry of Finance website. Bahrain has moved downstream in energy production. The country only produces 40,000bpd but has a refining capacity of 250,000bpd. Most of the revenue is generated from the refining and sale of product. The raw crude comes from Saudi Arabia. I don't think running out of crude is really the issue for them.

Real change is a generational issue not something that can be dictated over night. It takes time, but incremental change is the only way. The power vacuum post sweeping regime change in Libya and Iraq have shown that democracy will not take hold.
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Re: Bahrain politics [trail] [ In reply to ]
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trail wrote:



>You are talking extermination. Big difference. I'm just if there were no religion, anywhere, earth would be more peaceful..

Not to go all all Lavender Room, but my perception is that religion is just a vehicle through which land, power, and cultural politics play out. Those same politics play out in purely secular arenas as well. And I say this just having gotten back from a Bad Religion concert in full atheist mode. :)

Good point. I guess without religion people would be forced to be honest with themselves. Until then, religion is a perfect smokescreen for one to advance their own agendas. Explains our messed up planet.

_________________________________
The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design.
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Re: Bahrain politics [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Slowman wrote:
did you know that 400 people showed up for the national triathlon championships this year? in iran? for just over $200 you can fly round trip between the countries. i wonder what would happen a bunch of triathletes from both iran and israel happened to show up at challenge bahrain. you might think this a naive dream, but do you know that for the past 5 years, until last year, bahrain's ambassador to the united states was a jewish woman?

if we can have been diplomacy i don't know why we can have triathlon diplomacy.

Would Bahrain allow Israelis to compete on their soil? I seem to recall a lot of controversy when a tennis tournament in abu dhabi tried to deny israelis from competing on their soil. It wasnt until other tennis players threatened to not come either unless Israel was able to attend that they finally changed their minds.
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Re: Bahrain politics [avikoren1] [ In reply to ]
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 I seem to recall a lot of controversy when a tennis tournament in abu dhabi tried to deny israelis from competing on their soil. It wasnt until other tennis players threatened to not come either unless Israel was able to attend that they finally changed their minds.//

SO what you are saying is that sport broke down the barrier? This is exactly what we should be trying to accomplish with triathlon too. If the israeli barrier is now broken down, then we can move onto the womens..
Quote Reply
Re: Bahrain politics [avikoren1] [ In reply to ]
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"Would Bahrain allow Israelis to compete on their soil?"

i don't know. they don't have diplomatic relations with the israelis. i think it's tough for an israeli to travel to an arab country, except for jordan, morocco and maybe egypt. however, if an israeli were to travel on an other passport, say, a U.S. passport, maybe. i'm looking into this now.


Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
Quote Reply
Re: Bahrain politics [Maui_] [ In reply to ]
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Maui_ wrote:
The interview seems incomplete. For example when he says this:

"Triathlon is just one little thing we can do to bring to the streets of Bahrain a healthy lifestyle, social development, the unity among the population, the rich and the poor coming together in a triathlon waiting at the finish line."

The logical thing to do would be to question him how he dares to say this when Bahraini women would not be able to participate due to the "dress code." Going to the west to compete and being OK with this difference seems hypocritical.

Hello, please see this link to know more about Bahraini women and triathlon

You can either respond in public or through private message. Thank you and have a great day.
Quote Reply
Re: Bahrain politics [Saqeralkhalifa] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Thanks for the link. It is very refreshing to see this.
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Re: Bahrain politics [RowToTri] [ In reply to ]
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RowToTri wrote:
Slowman wrote:
" can i only report on ironman cairns if i also report on the fate of aborigines and torres straight islanders? and in the U.S.? do we only cover the halfmax championship in missouri if we also cover ferguson?


I understand where you're coming from, but what makes human rights abuses particularly relevant to triathlon in Bahrain is that one of the primary triathlon officials in Bahrain is accused of beating athletes. I'm not aware of such a situation in Australia or the US.

Yes. Exactly. This is the part that really sticks in my craw and the supporters seem unwilling to acknowledge. America, Canada and Australia aren't perfect by any means. But I'm pretty sure the head of the USAT hasn't been linked to personally waterboarding people at Gitmo.

I seem to remember that Uday Hussein was a big into sports. What if he fixated on triathlon instead of soccer and wrestling? Would you all have been cheer leading for the Tikrit 70.3 15 years ago with Uday helming the affair? I doubt it.
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Re: Bahrain politics [vertical_doug] [ In reply to ]
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vertical_doug wrote:
Slowman wrote:

Oil & Gas revenue is 86% of the budget revenue. You can get this off of the Bahrain Ministry of Finance website. Bahrain has moved downstream in energy production. The country only produces 40,000bpd but has a refining capacity of 250,000bpd. Most of the revenue is generated from the refining and sale of product. The raw crude comes from Saudi Arabia. I don't think running out of crude is really the issue for them.

Bahrain makes its money from producing oil and gas not from refining. Refining is a low margin business. The best refiners in the world like ExxonMobil and Shell have struggled in recent years to run profitable refining businesses. Unless the Saudis sell them crude at less than market price, there is no way that Bahrain's refining business is very profitable. In the book "After the Sheikhs: The Coming Collapse of the Gulf Monarchies" Christopher Davidson argues that what keeps the Gulf royal families in power is ever increasing handouts to its citizens. He argues that when the handouts stop the kingdoms will fall. The first countries to run out of money will be those with the least oil and gas - starting with Bahrain. I am not sure I agree with him but interesting reading.

Andrew Inkpen
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Re: Bahrain politics [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Hello Slowman and All,

While there might be issues of personal security ...... considering that the US Navy and US Marines [my alma mater] are based there ...... it seems reasonable to me to cover the race on ST media and if so inclined to compete there .... providing all nations (including Israelis) are allowed to compete.

As others have written ...... good should flow from sports competition.

Bharain is more 'small island city state' than country.

http://www.navy.mil/...y.asp?story_id=82575

Teenagers are living there.

http://www.navy.mil/...y.asp?story_id=82949

AFN (Armed Forces Network) improvements provide a voice to the surrounding area for America.

(and as noted on website: "Vice Chief of Naval Operations, Admiral Michelle Howard, reminds Sailors to be safe as they enjoy this Labor Day weekend."

causes me to consider that women's issues on Bahrain have likely not been forgotten.)

More info here:

https://www.cia.gov/...actbook/geos/ba.html

Excerpts:

“In 1783, the Sunni Al-Khalifa family took power in Bahrain. In order to secure these holdings, it entered into a series of treaties with the UK during the 19th century that made Bahrain a British protectorate. The archipelago attained its independence in 1971. Facing declining oil reserves, Bahrain has turned to petroleum processing and refining and has become an international banking center. Bahrain's small size and central location among Gulf countries require it to play a delicate balancing act in foreign affairs among its larger neighbors. The Sunni-led government has struggled to manage relations with its large Shia-majority population. In early 2011, amid Arab uprisings elsewhere in the region, the Bahraini Government confronted similar protests at home with police and military action, including deploying Gulf Cooperation Council security forces to Bahrain. Sporadic clashes between demonstrators and security forces continue in Bahrain. Ongoing dissatisfaction with the political status quo has led to a broader discussion termed the Bahrain National Dialogue, a process that convenes members of the executive, parliament, and political societies in an attempt to reach a political agreement.”

Area - comparative:
3.5 times the size of Washington, DC

Ethnic groups:
Bahraini 46%, Asian 45.5%, other Arabs 4.7%, African 1.6%, European 1%, other 1.2% (includes Gulf Co-operative country nationals, North and South Americans, and Oceanians) (2010 est.)


Languages:
Arabic (official), English, Farsi, Urdu


Religions:
Muslim 70.3%, Christian 14.5%, Hindu 9.8%, Buddhist 2.5%, Jewish 0.6%, folk religion <.1, unaffiliated 1.9%, other 0.2% (2010 est.)


Population:
1,314,089
country comparison to the world: 157
note: immigrants make up almost 55% of the total population, according to UN data (2013) (July 2014 est.)


current situation: Bahrain is a destination country for men and women subjected to forced labor and sex trafficking; unskilled and domestic workers from India, Pakistan, Nepal, Sri Lanka, Bangladesh, Indonesia, Thailand, the Philippines, Ethiopia, Ghana, and Eritrea migrate willingly to Bahrain, but some face conditions of forced labor through the withholding of passports, restrictions on movement, nonpayment, threats, and abuse; many Bahraini labor recruitment agencies and some employers charge foreign workers exorbitant fees that make them vulnerable to forced labor and debt bondage; domestic workers are particularly vulnerable to forced labor and sexual exploitation because they are not protected under labor laws; women from Thailand, the Philippines, Morocco, Jordan, Syria, Lebanon, China, Vietnam, Russia, Ukraine, and Eastern European countries are forced into prostitution in Bahrain.

tier rating: Tier 2 Watch List - Bahrain does not fully comply with the minimum standards for the elimination of trafficking; however, it is making significant efforts to do so; the government has made few discernible efforts to investigate, prosecute, and convict trafficking offenses; cases of unpaid or withheld wages, passport retention, and other abuses - common indicators of trafficking - are treated as labor disputes and taken to civil court rather than criminal court; the government has made no indication of taking steps to institute a formal trafficking victim identification procedure and referral mechanism, resulting in the majority of victims seeking shelter at their embassies or the NGO-operated trafficking shelter; most victims have not filed lawsuits against employers because of a distrust of the legal system or a fear of reprisals (2013)”


Cheers,


Neal


+1 mph Faster


Last edited by: nealhe: Sep 1, 14 9:50
Quote Reply
Re: Bahrain politics [Saqeralkhalifa] [ In reply to ]
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Thanks for engaging on this thread. It takes courage, a calm demeanor and patience. Obviously the Challenge Bahrain event is bringing up a great range of reactions from the western triathlon community. On the one hand, it seems like it is putting the kind of publicity, prize money and respect behind professional triathlon that many believe is sorely missing. On the other hand there is some consternation about supporting an organization which has had some troubling allegations leveled against it. Many are hopeful that bringing different athletes around the world to compete will help us resolve differences, understand each other better and ultimately benefit both the people of Bahrain as well as those whose relations with the country are improved. I believe this is possible and a noble goal, therefore I encourage participation, but not without engaging in difficult conversations because without these conversations, I think progress toward the greater goal beyond triathlon is not achieved.

For me, specifically the allegations against Nasser bin Hamad Al Khalifa are the most troubling and are directly connected to the triathlon organization in Bahrain. As far as the truth behind the allegations, I am not aware of a through investigation having been done, so I do not seek to try to expose the truth of that here, but would you care to comment on your position regarding the right of people to engage in non-violent political speech which may be in conflict with the opinions of the ruling family and whether or not the rulers of the country are/should be subject to all the same laws as the general population?

-------------
Ed O'Malley
www.VeloVetta.com
Founder of VeloVetta Cycling Shoes
Instagram • Facebook
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Re: Bahrain politics [chriskal] [ In reply to ]
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"the supporters seem unwilling to acknowledge"

i can only assume you haven't read through the thread. or you've omitted reading my posts. or you don't consider me a supporter. i take the allegations very seriously. they are really the only reason this is an issue, and that this thread is here at all. were that particular individual the front man for this race i probably would be striking a different posture.

what i will not criticize is bahrain's response to the arab spring revolt in its country in 2011, not because in favor of the response, but because it's clear that we in the west grossly misunderstood and miscalcualated the nature and implications of the arab spring. we in the west ought to be humbled by our response to the middle east over the past decade and probably think twice before we speak and three times before we act when it comes to telling arab countries how to respond to their own uprisings.

what does trouble me greatly are the specific allegations attached to one of the dozen or so in the royal family who participate in triathlon, and that those allegations smell and taste like retaliation for disloyalty, rather than an effort to extract life-saving information (not that the latter is a proper justification). that bothers the hell out of me.

but he is not putting on this race.

ironman and challenge have no real problem with this. it was full speed ahead with both brands when dealing with the bahrain delegation. i hope the difference between us and these race organizers is that we're not going to ignore or run from these allegations, nor self-censor, nor sensor you. we're going to walk a tightrope, because we'll embrace this race as a middle east triathlon glasnost, while also remaining cognizant of the allegations and the attendant legal machinery even now ongoing (in the UK, for example).


Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: Bahrain politics [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Slowman wrote:


this was my thought process, and, it has led to the "slowtwitch doctrine": we will either not cover, or actively campaign against, athletic events that seem to us to be specific attempts to propagandize and hide and put a false face on otherwise onerous regimes and practices. the 1936 olympics comes to mind.

i don't think this is one of those races. if you look at this particular man i interviewed, in his "former" life, before triathlon, one of his initiatives was pushing for free health care for all bahrainis on the condition that they spent a requisite amount of time engaged in improving their physical fitness and health. this guy is just a convert to what we believe in, at slowtwitch, at the core: that health and fitness saves and adds value to lives. this race is not a screen behind which is hidden tyranny. tyranny may exist in bahrain, but hiding it is not the purpose of this race. accordingly, i can see no reason why we should not embrace the possibility that a race likes this throws a lot of disparate people together in the cauldron of competition, where they come out the other side a little bit closer than before.


This entire thread is a great example of why I love this forum. I have neither the time nor the mental bandwidth to do my own research on Bahrain and puzzle through the ethics of supporting a triathlon there.

So it's great to rely on smart, trusted, thoughtful people who will discuss the issues here. I'm fine with "the slowtwitch doctrine" because I trust that slowman has put a lot of thought into it, and I haven't read any major counterpoints to it.

The stickiest thing in this whole discussion involves the actions of an individual (the accused torturer) in context with the actions of the Bahraini government. If those accusations are true, how do our reactions differ if he's just one bad apple, versus that torture being enable and/or supported by the government?

A similar situation was with Jerry Sandusky and Penn State. There, one man did a very bad thing, and the repetitive nature of his crimes were clearly enabled by the organization. And arguments have raged over how much the football team as a whole should be punished for this.

And just as reasonable people can disagree about Sandusky, Paterno, and penn state football, so too can reasonable people disagree about Nasser bin Hamad Al Khalifa, the royal family, and the Bahrain triathlon. We can all choose to watch or not watch a penn state game, and we can all choose to participate or not in the Bahrain triathlon. But most would consider it unreasonable to ask espn to cease coverage of penn state football.

So it seems entirely reasonable for slowtwitch to cover the Bahrain triathlon.

Last edited by: AlwaysCurious: Sep 1, 14 10:39
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Re: Bahrain politics [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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I'm inspired by a recent conversation we had about our pragmatic governor, Jerry Brown. And I think pragmatism is probably as good a lens as any to view the race through. Perhaps better. Certainly I think our own government could have been a bit more pragmatic in its foreign policy.

I think the pragmatic question is, "does embracing a sport like triathlon - and allowing things that are necessary, like women racing in a typical race outfit, the paying of equal prize money, etc. - help to move Bahrain in a positive direction?" And I think the answer is, unequivocally, "Yes!"

It is true that - currently - Bahraini women would not be allowed to participate. But are we closer to having Bahraini women participate in sports where they can compete wearing whatever they wish and alongside men as a result of having a race? I think probably.

To go back to the Jerry Brown analogy, I think you look at the enormity of balancing California's budget - something a lot of folks said couldn't be done - and you say, "well, how do you even tackle a problem that large?" I feel the same way about the overall political climate in the USA? How do fix a problem that large? I suppose it's kind of like training for an Ironman - or a half, as the case may be here. You start wherever you can.

Sport has some amazing power. 1895, New York World published the following list of "don'ts" for women on bikes: http://www.brainpickings.org/...en-on-bicycles-1895/

Or, of course, there is this story about the Afghan National Cycling Team women: http://www.npr.org/...-and-breaking-taboos

I think that having a race in Bahrain is better than not having a race in Bahrain in terms of potential long term benefit to the country.

To stake out a perhaps related-but-unrelated stance, I think it is a bad thing to have the World Cup in Qatar, though I generally think that things like the World Cup (and the Olympics) are at best a mixed proposition for any country because of the enormous cost and extremely limited potential long term benefit. A triathlon is sort of the opposite. It requires virtually no permanent infrastructure and yet achieves much of the same end net positives associated with being active/healthy/competitive.

On any topic with strong ideological arguments to be made, it seems that the perfect is very often the strongest enemy of the good...

"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp
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Re: Bahrain politics [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
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"It is true that - currently - Bahraini women would not be allowed to participate."

i'm pretty sure they can participate. there's a number of bahraini women who've race full IM distance (south africa). i *think* they can race this upcoming challenge in bahrain as well.

"where they can compete wearing whatever they wish and alongside men as a result of having a race?"

ah, now THAT is the question.


Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
Last edited by: Slowman: Sep 1, 14 11:38
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Re: Bahrain politics [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Slowman wrote:
"It is true that - currently - Bahraini women would not be allowed to participate."

i'm pretty sure they can participate. there's a number of bahraini women who've race full IM distance (south africa). i *think* they can race this upcoming challenge in bahrain as well.

"where they can compete wearing whatever they wish and alongside men as a result of having a race?"

ah, now THAT is the question.

Sorry. Should have been more clear - compete "just like anyone else." Though I suppose the precise definition of "like anyone else" is debatable. I was referring to them being able to race, for example, in a "normal" tri-kit.

"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp
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Re: Bahrain politics [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
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"Sorry. Should have been more clear - compete 'just like anyone else.'"

actually, you were clear. i just read your comments too fast and when i went back and read them again you were writing in the context of apparel.

when i saw the youtube video of the "tri women of bahrain" and i saw their race attire this just stuck out at me. my visceral reaction was: 1) i just love it when anybody goes out and does what he or she wants badly to do, damn the impediments; and 2) this is a great clash of expediency and reason on the one hand with a historic religious norm on the other hand. in america we ask whether women should be in the priesthood. no, some say, because it's clearly spelled out in paul's writings who can and can't be in the priesthood (women not only can't be in the priesthood, they need to "be silent" in church). but some (i, for one) view paul's letters as the words of a conservative person in a male-dominated, almost misogynistic society. in other words, it's the clash of the "literal word of god" with the "divinely inspired" writings of a man in and of his moment in time. we have the same discussion when divining the proper meaning of the constitution and bill of rights.

i am not a muslim, but i don't think people are that different all over the world, and i wonder if the same kind of discussion is not going on w/regard to how a muslim woman should be modestly, but take-appropriately, attired in a triathlon.


Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: Bahrain politics [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
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Rappstar wrote:
Slowman wrote:
"It is true that - currently - Bahraini women would not be allowed to participate."

i'm pretty sure they can participate. there's a number of bahraini women who've race full IM distance (south africa). i *think* they can race this upcoming challenge in bahrain as well.

"where they can compete wearing whatever they wish and alongside men as a result of having a race?"

ah, now THAT is the question.


Sorry. Should have been more clear - compete "just like anyone else." Though I suppose the precise definition of "like anyone else" is debatable. I was referring to them being able to race, for example, in a "normal" tri-kit.

Well, increased body coverage can be hydrodynamic and aerodynamic advantages sometimes, so maybe some women are following that science.
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Re: Bahrain politics [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
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Rappstar wrote:

It is true that - currently - Bahraini women would not be allowed to participate. But are we closer to having Bahraini women participate in sports where they can compete wearing whatever they wish and alongside men as a result of having a race? I think probably.


Many europeans find it odd that women cannot wear whatever they wish on american beaches. They wonder why women are forced to cover their chests, and wonder why americans still follow such puritanical standards of modesty.

At the same time, most american women, if given the option to uncover their chest on a beach (say, while visiting europe), will choose to remain covered. They want to protect their modesty, think that parts of their body should be reserved for viewing by their partner, and don't want to be judged on how they look.

Likewise and for similar reasons, some muslim women choose to remain covered even when living in a country where being covered is allowed (or even where being covered is illegal!).

In other words, we should be careful about forcing our standards of dress on other cultures. Imagine if the europeans threatened to boycott sports in the U.S. unless american beaches became top-optional for women. I bet a lot of american women would howl in protest, and call them arrogant and presumptuous.

Some non-usat triathlons in america allow men to race topless. Should there be a campaign by the germans to allow women in those events to race topless?
Last edited by: AlwaysCurious: Sep 1, 14 13:02
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Re: Bahrain politics [AlwaysCurious] [ In reply to ]
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AlwaysCurious wrote:
Rappstar wrote:

It is true that - currently - Bahraini women would not be allowed to participate. But are we closer to having Bahraini women participate in sports where they can compete wearing whatever they wish and alongside men as a result of having a race? I think probably.


Many europeans find it odd that women cannot wear whatever they wish on american beaches. They wonder why women are forced to cover their chests, and wonder why americans still follow such puritanical standards of modesty.

At the same time, most american women, if given the option to uncover their chest on a beach (say, while visiting europe), will choose to remain covered. They want to protect their modesty, think that parts of their body should be reserved for viewing by their partner, and don't want to be judged on how they look.

Likewise and for similar reasons, some muslim women choose to remain covered even when living in a country where being covered is allowed (or even where being covered is illegal!).

In other words, we should be careful about forcing our standards of dress on other cultures. Imagine if the europeans threatened to boycott sports in the U.S. unless american beaches became top-optional for women. I bet a lot of american women would howl in protest, and call them arrogant and presumptuous.

Some non-usat triathlons in america allow men to race topless. Should there be a campaign by the germans to allow women in those events to race topless?

Yes, yes there should be, and Slowtwitch should cover that race thoroughly!

Long Chile was a silly place.
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Re: Bahrain politics [AlwaysCurious] [ In reply to ]
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"we should be careful about forcing our standards of dress on other cultures."

you're right! and if anyone was advocating that in this thread he should be corrected!

ardent followers of track and field might remember sandra farmer-patrick, top intermediate hurdler from the U.S. (born in jamaica) who for quite a long time had a kind of dress she wore during competitions, to appease her very strictly religious mother. so, it's not just in muslim countries.

if you look at that dress of sandra's, it was about as minimal as you could get and still be a dress. there are a lot of christian women who, just like muslim women, do not appear in public without head coverings. but sometimes those "veils" can get pretty minimal. to the point of silliness, in my opinion, because the whole point is lost. obviously in the jewish religion attire and head coverings are addressed.

to me, there are two questions, equally interesting, and that is whether women have the right, or should have the right, to dress according to a western sense of modesty when engaging in a western-inspired activity (like triathlon)? second, when those women either are not so-allowed, or if they choose to strike a balance between islamic dress and race-functional apparel, is there somebody out there helping with it?

when i hearken back to the times in the past when triathlon has had a problem and needed a solution, it's invariably been emilio de soto to the rescue. as a top pro - sponsored elsewhere i assume, so i will not divulge his name - said to me just in the last couple of weeks: "emilio's arm coolers, nothing works like these. a lot of people have tried to copy them, but they can't get it right. de soto is the only one who can get this right."

one wonders what an expert pattern maker, skilled in endurance and tri apparel, who clearly has a grip on how to make functional wicking and evaporative cooling garments, could do for an islamic woman who wants comfort, performance, function and modesty.


Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: Bahrain politics [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Hello Slowman and All,

Perhaps more information on dress codes here:

Dear Neal,

There's a lot going on at Moment Bicycles in the next few weeks, including a Global Solidarity Ride to support the Afghan Women's Cycling Team. Read on to find out more!

Global Solidarity Ride


Ride with Us!

The brave women of the Afghan National Women's Cycling Team have a mission: to break through the gender barriers that exist in their country by riding their bikes.

We're participating, along with Liv Cycling and Mountain 2 Mountain, in the Global Solidarity Ride on August 30: a way for us all to show the women of Afghanistan that they are not alone in their revolutionary actions.

Join us for a ride, leaving from the shop at 8:00 AM on Saturday, August 30, 2014. We'll ride a metric century out-and-back to El Capitan Reservoir. Route sheets and refreshments will be provided before the ride. Please bring your own ride essentials- nutrition, repair kit, and spare tube. Join us for lunch after the ride at one of the fabulous restaurants in Liberty Station. For more information visit our event page.

Moment Bicycles
2816 Historic Decatur Road #135
San Diego, CA 92106
(619) 523-2453
www.momentbicycles.com

Cheers,

Neal

+1 mph Faster
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