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Coaching services are expensive
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Was looking around some coaching websites and all I can see is way too expensive services: from "ultimate programmes" to "train like a pro".

Are coaches really busy (full of athletes) and have to put prices up so they can lower the number of athletes they coach or is just a thing of the market i.e. because they want to make money out of coaching they put prices up so they dont lose money compared to others?

What about student-athletes?

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Miguel Andrade
http://mitano.blogspot.com
Last edited by: sirkilio: Aug 9, 11 4:43
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Re: Coaching services are expensive [sirkilio] [ In reply to ]
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Have a think about what you pay for any professional service on an hourly rate. Now think about how much time you want the coach to put into your planning, programming, analysis and feedback.
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Re: Coaching services are expensive [sirkilio] [ In reply to ]
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The economics work like this...

Almost all people that come to triathlon have zero-to-very-little experience in 1-to-3 sports. Consequently, almost anyone that speaks from authority on one of the three sports can convince a large percentage of new triathletes that they are an expert and a worthy coach. The demographics of the average new triathlete are generally - "lots of disposable income". From there it just takes some ingenuity and persistence to start your coaching enterprise.

Sirkilio, I see you've been around ST for over a year and have nearly 1000 posts. You could probably pass the USAT level 1 cert right now. The real question is, what's stopping you from starting your own coaching business?



Erik
Strava
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Re: Coaching services are expensive [sirkilio] [ In reply to ]
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Depends on what you need...

Do you need someone:
Local to teach hands on?
To make you feel good and pump you up?
To give you a set of workouts?
To plan a season for you?
To report to?

Think about your needs and what you want to pay. You can get a lot from a book if you are motivated. Personally I need someone to report to and tailor my workouts for me.

I use tripower.org cuz it gives me everything I need for a great price.
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Re: Coaching services are expensive [sirkilio] [ In reply to ]
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There are only so many athletes one coach can handle and do a good job and then there's the opportunity cost of the time spent coaching.
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Re: Coaching services are expensive [ In reply to ]
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Based on the reasons given why aren't college, high school and club coaches paid better in various sports?
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Re: Coaching services are expensive [nedbraden] [ In reply to ]
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Better than what? In the sports that generate high revenues the coaches are paid very well.
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Re: Coaching services are expensive [c.dan.jog] [ In reply to ]
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c.dan.jog wrote:
Better than what? In the sports that generate high revenues the coaches are paid very well.
Two problems:

1) Triathlon is not a high revenue sport, so equating it with them is illogical.

2) I was not just talking about high revenue sports.
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Re: Coaching services are expensive [sirkilio] [ In reply to ]
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All will have a super expensive programs but most have some cheaper options. My coach is O'brien Forbes and he is deffinatly worth the money. http://coachob.com/
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Re: Coaching services are expensive [sirkilio] [ In reply to ]
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Depending on the service coaches really don't make that much. For 150 a month, which I think is a fairly fair rate, Your coach likely spends 1-2 hours per athlete planning a weekly schedule. Then if he or she is worth anything will examine your workouts once every day or two and examine your feedback and let you know their thoughts and ideas. This takes another 1-2 hours a week. Then you can annoy the hell out them when they call you once a week or so to dial in your training plan and get more detailed feedback. Between me and my coach this takes another hour after texts emails and all that. 5 hours a week, I'm sure not everyone gets this treatment, but for 20 hours a month your coach gets 150 dollars. Not even minimum wage. Now for coaching certs usat charges to get certified as a coach, I think they have a yearly fee as well.
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Re: Coaching services are expensive [sirkilio] [ In reply to ]
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coaches have to eat too
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Re: Coaching services are expensive [nedbraden] [ In reply to ]
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nedbraden wrote:
Based on the reasons given why aren't college, high school and club coaches paid better in various sports?

There are plenty of college football coaches that are pretty well paid ;)
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Re: Coaching services are expensive [sirkilio] [ In reply to ]
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A good coach is almost certainly going to save you the most time/$ invested, on the bike at least.
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Re: Coaching services are expensive [sirkilio] [ In reply to ]
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Funny I almost posted a very similar post yesterday after i stopped into the local "pro shop" to check it out. They attempted to sell me on a 6-month plan of personalized coaching of $250/month. While put into the context of personalized service, I can see that this isn't much considering I charge that same amount per hour of work, but it seems outrageous to me that someone would pay $2,000 for 6 months of training advice for their sport/hobby. I'm not knocking someone else's choice to spend their money in that fashion but I would not pay that much to be told when to run/ride/eat/drink.
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Re: Coaching services are expensive [sirkilio] [ In reply to ]
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Coaching is, or it should be, a service provided by a professional. It's not different from hiring a lawyer or a doctor. As for those professionals, the best ones cost a lot of money, so really, it's not that different.

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The Triathlon Squad

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Re: Coaching services are expensive [sirkilio] [ In reply to ]
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I was hoping this thread would be something other than complaints about money. In my experience (including my interaction with other triathletes who have coaches), the real cost is not monetary. To get the most out of having a coach, the athlete has to follow the coach's plan & advice. The problem is that the coach may not be providing you with the guidance that works for you. At the end of the season, you could follow all the advice and end up with sub-par performances (as a result of injury, fatigue or a lack of fitness/preparation). A coach that has you follow a crucible of a plan (i.e. one that tends to grind you to dust physically and/or mentally) is 1) likely to leave you injured and hating the sport and 2) terribly expensive even if it is free.

Considering the huge amount of money I spend on equipment, races, travel, PT, gym memberships, etc. along with the ancillary costs of my time & focus (I have changed jobs to allow me to train how & when I want), the monetary costs of a coach are not significant. The reason I don't have a coach is that I have learned the hard way that a bad coach can be worse than no coach. Until I am confident that I could identify the "right" coach for me, I will go without. Not many AGers need a coach but that is not the same as saying many would benefit from a good coach. If it is too much for you, rest assured that you are not necessarily worse off as a result.
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Re: Coaching services are expensive [Paulo Sousa] [ In reply to ]
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It should be like that but unfortunately it isn't. I see many coaches asking some high prices and their athletes never won anything.

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Miguel Andrade
http://mitano.blogspot.com
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Re: Coaching services are expensive [sirkilio] [ In reply to ]
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As with any professional, you need to do your research before picking who to hire.

I am sure there are many lawyers out there that charge as much as the best, when they're not better than your common ambulance chaser.

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The Triathlon Squad

Like us on Facebook!!!
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Re: Coaching services are expensive [RandyS] [ In reply to ]
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RandyS wrote:
I was hoping this thread would be something other than complaints about money.


Say I want to get an online coach. I pay him. How can I trust someone who is far away from me and do I know if the plan is offering me is not something that he took from other place or gives to all his athletes?

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Miguel Andrade
http://mitano.blogspot.com
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Re: Coaching services are expensive [RandyS] [ In reply to ]
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RandyS wrote:
Not many AGers need a coach but that is not the same as saying many would benefit from a good coach.

Funny, but in 31 years of triathlon, I have seen the opposite. The ones who got decent, consistent coaching were the ones who flourished, and the others were left to compare workout logs with insane tales of mega workouts and little race day success. Big fish, small pond....

Gary Geiger
http://www.geigerphoto.com Professional photographer

TEAM KiWAMi NORTH AMERICA http://www.kiwamitri.com, Rudy Project http://www.rudyprojectusa.com, GU https://guenergy.com/shop/ ; Salming World Ambassador; https://www.shopsalming.com
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Re: Coaching services are expensive [sirkilio] [ In reply to ]
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You tend to pay for what you get. I've used a professional coach for 8 months now and he's worth every penny (Marky V). Is it expensive? I don't know, expense is all relative isn't it? I'm not talking compared to income, I'm talking compared to disposable income and time/ cost of investment. Being debt free (except for the house), I have more disposable income that a typical person, so I have more money to play with. I could spend 6-700 a month on a new car, or spend a 1/3 of that amount and get a coach and investment in something that I love. It's all about the choices you make with your money.

Powered By HD Coaching
Last edited by: relentless: Aug 9, 11 10:48
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Re: Coaching services are expensive [ggeiger] [ In reply to ]
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ggeiger wrote:
RandyS wrote:
Not many AGers need a coach but that is not the same as saying many would benefit from a good coach.


Funny, but in 31 years of triathlon, I have seen the opposite. The ones who got decent, consistent coaching were the ones who flourished, and the others were left to compare workout logs with insane tales of mega workouts and little race day success. Big fish, small pond....

I agree but would emphasize the "decent, consistent coaching" parts of your qualified statement. I assume in your 31 yrs of tri that you have also known of a lot of coached athletes who ended up unnecessarily injured or leaving the sport. It is not uncommon for coaches to prescribe very long runs (20 milers) and even speed work for newbies training for a first IM (who end up finishing in 15+ hrs). I once had a coach recommend I do a 16 mile run on pavement a few days after I had to cut short a 5 mile run due to an ankle injury. I got a lot of pleasure telling him to stop loading workouts into my TP account. I was pissed not because of the money I paid but rather the time I wasted with that guy.

Just because they are paid and have some POS certification does not mean they know what they are doing. This is not meant to be a comment on all coaches but rather a note of caution that there are a lot of idiots posing as such.
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Re: Coaching services are expensive [sirkilio] [ In reply to ]
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Have you gotten a massage lately? Any idea how much they charge per hour? Now a good coach that is a resource for everything you wanted to know about sport for 15+ hours a month for phone time, email time, plan preparation, or even personal one on one time with the athlete if local isn't a bad deal at all if you base it off $200 or less. Depends on what $$ you have, for a millionaire $700 a month may be a good deal. Ever hire a personal trainer for an hour? Yeah, not cheap. But like Paulo said, do your homework, ask for references, look at the experience of the coach and do not pick one just because they have a lot of athletes thinking they "must be good" if they have a lot. Often they are overloaded & you'll get squat for time (not saying you always will but it happens), but just be weary of diminishing "me time" when dealing with them. Of course, you must bring the motivation (can lead a dog to water but can't make them drink type thing). As a student athlete I think you said...be a student, ask a lot of questions, and definitely go overboard on feedback to the coach so they can tune your preparation quicker for you each week. I would prefer to read a "book" log entry rather than a "Ran per workout, felt okay." Tells a coach about nothing--how about conditions, HR, aches, pains, mental state, technique, warm up info, cool down info, nutrition during/after or before (especially long workouts) and tons of other stuff you can put in there. Good luck!
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Re: Coaching services are expensive [RandyS] [ In reply to ]
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Yes, you are very correct in your statements, and you also were more forthright than many my pulling the trigger on the one who did that to you. I just feel that coaching is a collaboration, not just someone writing workouts intended to make make "everyone" faster. As we all know, every bit of this sport, from sleep to nutrition to workouts to race day mental focus is individual and the minute one separates the two way communication from the equation, the whole process fails. That's why I feel that finding that coach can take one to places he doesn't even see yet. The coach who tells everyone they can do an ironman just after taking up the sport is not doing the sport and the coaching profession any justice. I like to learn from the bad coaches as much as from the good....

Gary Geiger
http://www.geigerphoto.com Professional photographer

TEAM KiWAMi NORTH AMERICA http://www.kiwamitri.com, Rudy Project http://www.rudyprojectusa.com, GU https://guenergy.com/shop/ ; Salming World Ambassador; https://www.shopsalming.com
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Re: Coaching services are expensive [Paulo Sousa] [ In reply to ]
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i like the analogy... there's a local coach known for drafting and cutting run courses, that also encourages his athletes to do likewise. insert some crooked lawyer joke...
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Re: Coaching services are expensive [sirkilio] [ In reply to ]
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[/quote]

Say I want to get an online coach. I pay him. How can I trust someone who is far away from me and do I know if the plan is offering me is not something that he took from other place or gives to all his athletes?[/quote]
This is the problem with online coaching. Real coaching requires the coach to look at the athlete in person and asses what they need. Once the coach understand the clients physical / mental state then remote coaching can work. Not ideal but possible. The idea that an athlete can fill out an online questionnaire and get a training plan that is just right for them is laughable.
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Re: Coaching services are expensive [sirkilio] [ In reply to ]
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In my case, I have had to increase coaching prices because of a wait list for my services, and so that I could justify providing higher value to the athletes that I coach. However, at the same time that I increased prices, I also added group coaching to introduce an affordable option. I'd recommend that if you find individual coaching a bit too expensive from the coach you'd prefer, that you 1) consider getting together a group of training buddies and approaching the coach to work with you at a group rate OR 2) find an existing group coaching solution.

Hope that helps!
Ben Greenfield

Ben Greenfield

Nutrition & Human Performance Advice
http://www.bengreenfieldfitness.com
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Re: Coaching services are expensive [Zooma] [ In reply to ]
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Yes it is. But what is the option for athletes that don't have good coaches close?

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Miguel Andrade
http://mitano.blogspot.com
Last edited by: sirkilio: Aug 9, 11 13:19
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Re: Coaching services are expensive [sirkilio] [ In reply to ]
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It is apparently overpriced. It probably has a lot more to do with the devaluation of the currency though. Have you bought groceries lately?

Many women think their vajayjays are worth their body weight in gold coins too.

You don't have to buy something if you think it is overvalued / priced.


sirkilio wrote:
Was looking around some coaching websites and all I can see is way too expensive services: from "ultimate programmes" to "train like a pro".

Are coaches really busy (full of athletes) and have to put prices up so they can lower the number of athletes they coach or is just a thing of the market i.e. because they want to make money out of coaching they put prices up so they dont lose money compared to others?

What about student-athletes?

--------------------------------------------------------

You will remain the same person, before, during and after the race. So the result, no matter how important, will not define you. The journey is what matters. ~ Chrissie W.
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Re: Coaching services are expensive [sirkilio] [ In reply to ]
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I always looked at coaching and just trained myself. But, when doing my first ironman..... I went with a coach.

Here is what I found out after a year.

I use to never train slow on slow days. I never went hard long enough on hard days. I didn't REALLY know how to recover. And honestly, I still struggle with proper recovery and often I get sick after my build weeks. I didn't really understand nutriotion. Hell, after getting a powertap and training at slower paces..... I know I wasn't balanced between all 3 sports and I didn't know how to pace myself. I also struggled with injury on the run and my coach got me up to the marathon distance and more importantly, I am "safe" at running long runs and racing 10 miles or more now without injury.

For the "maximum" plans, I just can't do that. I don't have enough time to follow every workout, upload all my data, type all the responses, make all the phone calls, etc.
I get my wworkouts, follow as many as I can fit in my life, and I post responses or questions when I need to. Every week or so, I jsut send a quick text to say- all is good, or report if there is a question or problem. I don't want to waste my coaches time to feel like I am "getting my moneys worth".

I read a swimming book while on a airplane last weekend with my wife. When Iw as done, I thought- my coach already does everything I read in that book. There was honestly nothing I saw new. More importantly, I don't have time to read books at home with twins that are 3 running around. It is easier to just print my workout and find time to do that.

How much is a coach worth? I don't know.... you decide. But, I did hire him back this year and I plan on using him next year too.

The real question is..... do you like your coach? How do you find a good coach? I woudl say- post that question here and go by referral. I would give my coaches name in a heartbeat to anyone that wanted a good coach.

I am very pleased.
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Re: Coaching services are expensive [jharris] [ In reply to ]
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Thank you for every answer. Just to clarify one thing: when I said coaching services are expensive I was saying input/output terms because many times "what you pay is not what you get".

It is a bit disappointing to see many people deceived with marketing and big names. But as coach Paulo said everyone should do their research and try to find a "good" coach. I did mine and already found one.

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Miguel Andrade
http://mitano.blogspot.com
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Re: Coaching services are expensive [sirkilio] [ In reply to ]
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Check out Endurance Nation. Best value out there in my opinion. Their training will kick almost anyone's a$$. I've been a member since Nov. 2010 and am having a PR season.
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Re: Coaching services are expensive [sirkilio] [ In reply to ]
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Athletes "winning" shouldn't be a measure of a good coach. And i wouldn't necessarily consider the coach's racing resume to be an absolute measure of their quality either. Therer are some insane fast triathletes out there that would be shit coaches and some age groupers can likely put an ass whooping on some of the best coaches. a 9hr IM doesn't make a good coach and a 12hr IM doesn't make a bad coach.

sirkilio wrote:
It should be like that but unfortunately it isn't. I see many coaches asking some high prices and their athletes never won anything.
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Re: Coaching services are expensive [sirkilio] [ In reply to ]
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I have had a USAT certified coach since November 2010. Its $175 a month, and he does it all. Lemme know if you want details. Great guy, seriously. Oh, and it works!
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Re: Coaching services are expensive [TH3_FRB] [ In reply to ]
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Yes it depends what your looking for. If you want to do PRs or if want to work hard and win.

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Miguel Andrade
http://mitano.blogspot.com
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Re: Coaching services are expensive [TH3_FRB] [ In reply to ]
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and another thing is: being a USAT certified coach doesnt mean anything. Theory is not practice.

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Miguel Andrade
http://mitano.blogspot.com
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Re: Coaching services are expensive [sirkilio] [ In reply to ]
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sirkilio wrote:
Thank you for every answer. Just to clarify one thing: when I said coaching services are expensive I was saying input/output terms because many times "what you pay is not what you get".

It is a bit disappointing to see many people deceived with marketing and big names. But as coach Paulo said everyone should do their research and try to find a "good" coach. I did mine and already found one.


True. I suppose, like anything, you need check into the purchase. I heard a car salesman say that you would be surprised how many people walk in to just look..... and drive home in a new car. These are probably the same people that get "taken" by a bad coach.

It sucks when people are turned away. I haven't had that experience. I suggest a coach, if you can afford it. In my mind, starting triathlon- there is a ton of expense..... but, after you have a bike, have all your gear..... the cost is less. So, instead of spending thousands on a bike that year, you can spend some cash on coaching. My thoughts at least.

I bet I spend the same on coaching as some spend at Starbucks every morning.
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Re: Coaching services are expensive [sirkilio] [ In reply to ]
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If you do not have access to a good coach locally to you, and if you do not want to work with someone remotely, there is always the tried-and-true option of joining a triathlon club or team. In general, there's some kind of captain or 'ambassador' group that is very knowledgeable and who can help you define then meet your objectives in the multisport world. This option is typically much less expensive and the camaraderie can be quite inspiring for you.

The majority of people first coming to the sport make the same mistakes of overtraining, insufficient rest/sleep, poor nutrition, and so forth. There's some great books out there that you could read, as well as online resources from USAT and such.

For me, getting coached is a way of winning back some time in my life by getting more specific and efficient about my workouts. I train a good 50% less than I did just 4-5 years ago, and yet I am faster and periodically can podium in regional races. Also, I haven't worked with just one single coach -- I have a swim coach who coaches the local university team, I have worked with a few run coaches, one of whom also is the coach of a local college team, and I have trained on the bike with a few CAT1 top cyclists. The challenge with working this way is that the responsibility for the balanced season plan is on me - the risk is peaking in any one or all of these at different times than when you want to. Thus, working with the experienced tri coach can actually help get a more holistic plan where all the parts fit in, along with nutrition, rest, functional strength and stretching programs.
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Re: Coaching services are expensive [jharris] [ In reply to ]
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I am surprised at the time estimate for coaching though.

I'd guesstimate that with a good online data source (TrainingPeaks), a coach could write your upcoming week schedule in under 5 minutes. Seriously, a doctor can look through far, far more complicated data and make bigger decisions within that time frame, and I'm sure an experienced coach would have a similar experience and speed of judgment. If they can't, I'd suspect they were too inexperienced. Seriously, it should be stunningly obvious to them as to what load to prescribe someone based on their recent few weeks of results in each sport based upon their sample of athletes in their stable. Tweaking it up and down is very easy as well, especially with all the tools and feedback given by PMs and HRMs and GPS which may it a no-guess game.

Contact time is definitely a limiter - I've seen a few coach-athlete relationships go bad despite very good race results because the athlete felt like they weren't getting enough feedback or face time at key moments.

If you get an hour a week talking with your coach, I'd think you are on the extreme high end of maintenance - what they heck are you spending all that time talking about, anyway?

I could realistically see a good online coach communicating with their athlete 1 hr per week and spending about 15 minutes to review their past data and write a new plan. So a grand total of 5-6 hrs per month, and that's on the generous side I'd bet. So still not a 'rich' rate, but $50-100/hr doing something you love with no expensive education behind it is pretty good.

If you're a coaching someone who doesn't demand an hour per week of face time, you're talking 1-2 hours TOTAL per month of work making plans. That really starts playing some bling at the $250+ rate. I'm sure there are some coaches who not only do this, but offload their clients to subcoaches to handle that work. Not saying that that's a necessarily bad thing - if the subcoach is making essential the same decisions, it shouldn't make a difference. But there are definitely ways to make the economics work well - if you've got the cred.
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Re: Coaching services are expensive [Paulo Sousa] [ In reply to ]
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Paulo Sousa wrote:
As with any professional, you need to do your research before picking who to hire.

Exactly. Just the same as when looking for an architect to build your new house. You don't pick him out from the yellow pages.

Sergio

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Note: English is not my first language. Please read this translated post considering that.


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Re: Coaching services are expensive [lightheir] [ In reply to ]
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In my own experience (n=1, once so far), the value from coaching comes both in the training plan and support, as well as being a resource and "guiding light". So-called "extras" like swim technique feedback, bike fit help, nutritional information, and a willingness to share physiological knowledge and personal experience add a ton of value, and can be done remotely (though admittedly not as effectively as in person). Affiliate discounts, contacts w/in the sport, etc. can also be worth something.

As far as contact with coaches, I find that I have frequent questions, but they're one-offs 99% of the time. An email with bullet-pointed questions and queries, and within a few hours I usually have comprehensive enough answers.

And I hope that a coach is spending more than 5 minutes a week simply writing a plan, and is actually looking at athlete feedback.
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Re: Coaching services are expensive [Quantum] [ In reply to ]
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You can both look at feedback and write a good plan in 5 mins - longer for the first week or two, but after 2-3 weeks, they should know pretty much exactly where you are at any point in your training and be able to rattle off the expected plan with minimal thinking. They should know the road already and just be making minimal tweaks as your condition and schedule permits. If they're making big changes regularly, you've got the wrong coach.
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Re: Coaching services are expensive [Quantum] [ In reply to ]
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Quantum wrote:
In my own experience (n=1, once so far), the value from coaching comes both in the training plan and support, as well as being a resource and "guiding light". So-called "extras" like swim technique feedback, bike fit help, nutritional information, and a willingness to share physiological knowledge and personal experience add a ton of value, and can be done remotely (though admittedly not as effectively as in person). Affiliate discounts, contacts w/in the sport, etc. can also be worth something.

As far as contact with coaches, I find that I have frequent questions, but they're one-offs 99% of the time. An email with bullet-pointed questions and queries, and within a few hours I usually have comprehensive enough answers.

And I hope that a coach is spending more than 5 minutes a week simply writing a plan, and is actually looking at athlete feedback.

I worked with a coach & he was excellent at helping me understand myself & how to train much better (my RPE, efforts required, recovery, etc), race prep & analysis and on answering the one-offs. For a first coach, I don't think an online coach would have worked for me. He was great at reading our interactions and giving me direction, but he didn't spend as much time looking at detailed workout data as I thought he would. I knew it time for a break when the training plans started looking boilerplate-ish & his answers to my questions were predictable. But I'll go back to a coach once I feel like I've hit another plateau.
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Re: Coaching services are expensive [sirkilio] [ In reply to ]
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sirkilio wrote:
and another thing is: being a USAT certified coach doesnt mean anything. Theory is not practice.

You're making the assumption that USAT offers the theory ;-)
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Re: Coaching services are expensive [Francois] [ In reply to ]
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A good coach also provides a very important thing for any athlete: accountability. It is a lot harder to skip a workout or do something against what your coach tells you to do if you are paying good money and you are going to have someone asking you why you didn't follow the plan. For many people it is also a way to not have to do any guesswork. Everything detailed is provided for you (hopefully). It is a service just like anything else. I can change my oil, but I can't be bothered when I can pay someone else to do it for me in 10 minutes.

A good coach gets good results consistently with their athletes, and therefore can demand more money because demand increases for good service and results.


Part of the Slowtwitch Strength Training Association. Picking up something heavier than a bike makes me happy.
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Re: Coaching services are expensive [ponyboy] [ In reply to ]
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I couldn't help but read this thread and think about my current situation. As an athlete of about 5 years, I've begun the process of becoming a coach and will hopefully have my USAT Lvl 1 by the end of the year in addition to my USAC Lvl 3. A lot of what I've learned, I've learned from my current coach (a USAT Lvl 3) and the experience has been extremely valuable. I volunteer as an assistant coach under him for our local tri club.

Getting to the point, I can completely understand the current rates that coaches charge due to the amount of time they put into their athletes. Right now I personally coach two beginner triathletes remotely as well as lead various workouts for my coach's tri club. One of my athletes I coach for free, and the other I coach for $100 a month. I'll tell you right now that I spent at least 3 hours a week on each of them researching appropriate workouts, loading up their workouts to TrainingPeaks, speaking with them personally and getting feedback. I don't even have my USAT Lvl 1 certification yet and I will have invested well over a grand into coaching before that happens. So for athletes saying that coaching is expensive, please realize that the process of coaching can be just as expensive.

From my experiences thus far, the reward comes not from money, but from the satisfaction of knowing you successfully helped an athlete reach their goal through proper training and guidance. That being said, coaches gotta eat too. I hate asking people for money, but its something that's necessary for the time invested into an athlete on a regular basis.

Train well and be fast.

Cheers.

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Mike Lemus
Tri Peak Athlete LLC - Assistant Coach
USAC Lvl. 3 Coach
http://www.tripeakathlete.com
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Re: Coaching services are expensive [AG] [ In reply to ]
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I find that it really depends on what you want from a coach and how much interaction you want form them.
In regards to an online coach and them not being able to access you and look at technique etc. This can also be done online. With the technology today there are meas an ways to be able to either take a recording of swimming, biking or running and have the video uploaded to the coach or there are also ways to be able do it live.
Having an online coach is a great way to find a coach that is suitable for your needs and goals. Also an online coach is great for those that are in locations where they may not have a local triathlon club and triathlon coach.

In my opinion an online coach is a good as having a coach that you see in person.

Best of luck finding the right coach for you.

Cheers,
Jarrod
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Re: Coaching services are expensive [lightheir] [ In reply to ]
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Don't discount the incredible amount of time it takes to load the workout libraries into Training Peaks.Unless you buy somebody elses workouts and have a canned program that someone else used successfully (not your work product) then you have to do a huge amount of front end work before the first client pays you a dime. Then there's the cost of your business permits and the extortion fee the state charges for the pleasure of having an LLC in your state ($800 here in CA), business cards, marketing, printed materials, power analysis & video analysis software, a video camera (if you want to do analysis), perhaps a computrainer for graduated threshold testing and the time away from other important things in your life. I would say I had a good 200 hours of time and $3000 invested in my coaching businiess before my first client signed on.

Dave


Dave Stark
dreamcatcher@astound.net
USAC & USAT level 2 certified coach
Last edited by: karma: Sep 20, 11 8:10
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Re: Coaching services are expensive [karma] [ In reply to ]
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karma wrote:
Don't discount the incredible amount of time it takes to load the workout libraries into Training Peaks.Unless you buy somebody elses workouts and have a canned program that someone else used successfully (not your work product) then you have to do a huge amount of front end work before the first client pays you a dime. Then there's the cost of your business permits and the extortion fee the state charges for the pleasure of having an LLC in your state ($800 here in CA), business cards, marketing, printed materials, power analysis & video analysis software, a video camera (if you want to do analysis), perhaps a computrainer for graduated threshold testing and the time away from other important things in your life. I would say I had a good 200 hours of time and $3000 invested in my coaching busniess before my first client signed on.

Dave

Not a trivial investment, of course, but put it this way - that's perhaps the lowest startup fee and time commitment I can possibly think of for ANY business that's not a trivial minimal-income opportunity.
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Re: Coaching services are expensive [lightheir] [ In reply to ]
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lightheir wrote:
You can both look at feedback and write a good plan in 5 mins

In my own experience it is rare that I can check status and provide needed feedback in literally 5 minutes. Hell logging in and selecting the athlete takes 1.5 on the system I use.

But it all depends on what the coach is doing or providing.

For some athletes, at some stages, yes 5 minutes is all it takes. This person just basically needs to put in the time, did he do the workout? is it shaded green? yes, great, then carry on. But this is not the case the majority of the time.

But even so, in this most simple of cases the work was done upfront in laying out the plan. What days should he do which sport, compare to his schedule and what days and times he is available to do those sports. Once that is settled then you need to look at the intended race schedule, how does he need to progress to get from here to there, staying within the confines of a workable week for him. Now you have the idea of how to get there, now craft the workouts and put it in.

Crafting the workouts themselves can be easy or hard, depending on the sport and the focuses. If you are working from a library, then cut and paste works pretty quickly. But even using my own library I usually am changing things around. Even within sports, run and bike are somewhat more easy. I can write a workout that says 1 hour run at moderate pace and the person knows what moderate is for him and off he goes and does his run.

But for swimming, such a workout description can cause a revolt. Fully half of my time is done in crafting swim workouts for a given triathlete. Figuring out which skill to work on if any, how to describe the skill, finding videos that illustrate said skill and crafting it into a workout that makes some sense. Even the main sets which are pretty straightforward, take some time to put together.

But all this kind of assumes the easiest part.

A much more likely scenario is to open the week and view the files. The threshold intervals on tuesday should have been at 250 watts did he hold those watts for the intended time? Yes or no, progress to next week accordingly, this is easy, but it still takes time to review. Saturday's race simulation ride should have been 4 hours long, holding 200 watts on uphills, 190 on flats and 180ish on extended rideable downhills. Did he do this? Did he spike too much on uphills, did he get the proper amount of calories in. What was the heart rate response and the temps? were they what you might expect better or worse. OK so you see how he did, do you change the power targets up or down for the next race prep ride or brick.

Now onto the 2 hour run, did he hold his pace? And so on like the bike analysis.

earlier on you probably went through an exercise looking at historical data to get your first estimates of sustainable efforts. What is the best power he has held for 2:45 minutes? Can he run off of this in the next half iron?

What is his best 13 mile run? How close might he come on race day, these are now the first estimates of race day intensity, figure out how he can test them and not burn himself out.

For me that is a much more typical week's planning. There are also the times with the occassional injury or when athletes are reaching their limits and you need to adjust the schedule to account for that.

In the end, even if I can look at a week and figure out next week in ten minutes, I probably spent 2 hours or so setting up the 12 week cycle we are in now. And as I said the ten minute situation is rare.

I've done this analysis and typical for me is 2 hours to setup a 12 week block and an average of 40 minutes per person per week. There some higher and some lower.

Now, that is me, some people do it differently. Some do more, some do less I am sure.

But for me and what I do, 5 minutes per week is very rare.

As for the original question, is coaching expensive, yes it is. And some coaches are undoubtedly overpriced. Ask around for satisfied customers.
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Re: Coaching services are expensive [Kevin in MD] [ In reply to ]
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I like your style KevininMD. I'd like to think that most coaches do what you do - I actually think a lot do.

But again, to put it in perspective:

I work in the medical field. When you're in your first 10 (yup, 10!) years of training and then your first few years of actual practice, very often it will take you HOURS (sometimes the whole day) to make a single decision. In part because of complexity, in part because of fear, and a lot because of lack of experience. You can literally overthink all the variables. If you think triathlon has variables, just try the medical profession, where a wrong decision usually means the difference between thousands (often tens of thousands) of dollars of treatment, and even a lot of pain a suffering for wrong decisions.

Now with a lot of experience, I can do what I do very quickly. VERY quickly. Even the most complex cases require real startup time, but then it fits in. All the extra variables are greatly simplified by experience and knowledge. Not to say I know everything - far from it - but you get much more comfortable with uncertainty based upon your proven results and don't waste as much time on it.

Much of what you describe in your 'thought-process' is exactly like what I went through in my early years and training mode. Not to say that you don't know what your doing, but just by seeing what you wrote, I'm sure that a uber-experienced coach with tons of great results could look at a lot of those athletes who waffle this, miss workouts this, etc., and within 5 minutes cut through all the 'BS' and adjust the plan appropriately. In less than 5 minutes.
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Re: Coaching services are expensive [sirkilio] [ In reply to ]
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My recommendation would be too look around and find a coach who is local. I knew my coach personally before I even took up cycling, so I had a bit of an advantage when selecting one. With someone who is local you have the ability to see them at races, go on training rides together and I think build a greater bond which in turn will result in someone who hopefully will actually give a crap about how well you do. Thats just my opinion though.

I'll throw my buddy out there...Ken Lundgren. This guy LOVES coaching, he can be a bit extreme and over the top, but its just his love for the sport and coaching that is coming through.
http://www.eliteendurance.com


____________________
Titanium faces rock!
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Re: Coaching services are expensive [lightheir] [ In reply to ]
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So you've not got coaching experience yourself; feel comfortable telling me how long it should take to coach athletes even though you obviously have no idea how much experience I have or my results; and you think coaches are taking 5 minutes per athlete per week.

I'm sure your opinion on the matter is given the attention it deserves.

Now, where's the link for the message board in your work so I can sound off on how long it should take to do your job, I've been alive a long time so I feel confident in being able to say how long it should take to make decisions on medical care. I want my opinion on that to be given the weight IT deserves.
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Re: Coaching services are expensive [Kevin in MD] [ In reply to ]
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Kevin in MD wrote:
So you've not got coaching experience yourself; feel comfortable telling me how long it should take to coach athletes even though you obviously have no idea how much experience I have or my results; and you think coaches are taking 5 minutes per athlete per week.

I'm sure your opinion on the matter is given the attention it deserves.

Now, where's the link for the message board in your work so I can sound off on how long it should take to do your job, I've been alive a long time so I feel confident in being able to say how long it should take to make decisions on medical care. I want my opinion on that to be given the weight IT deserves.

You seem annoyed... do you mean to tell me there's someone WRONG on the Internet???

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Re: Coaching services are expensive [Paulo Sousa] [ In reply to ]
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Yep


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Re: Coaching services are expensive [Kevin in MD] [ In reply to ]
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Kevin in MD wrote:
So you've not got coaching experience yourself; feel comfortable telling me how long it should take to coach athletes even though you obviously have no idea how much experience I have or my results; and you think coaches are taking 5 minutes per athlete per week.

I'm sure your opinion on the matter is given the attention it deserves.

Now, where's the link for the message board in your work so I can sound off on how long it should take to do your job, I've been alive a long time so I feel confident in being able to say how long it should take to make decisions on medical care. I want my opinion on that to be given the weight IT deserves.


Heh heh. No need to get mad. We all can have our own opinions on ST.

And for folks who insist they know how to do my job better than I do and post about on forums - you'd better believe that there are patients, lawyers, doctors, insurance companies, and politicians who are ALL trying to tell me - actually, force me to do my job a certain way, even if it goes against best medical practice as shown by evidence. On forums, and in public, all the time. At least you just have to do with the guys who are paying you to be coached - I get to deal with everyone from the person who's seeing me to their entire extended family, insurance company, and god forbid, lawyers if anything goes wrong.

You don't even want to know how much I have to pay in insurance just to be able to do my job. Let's put it this way - it's over 10x the startup cost for a coach someone mentioned earlier.
Last edited by: lightheir: Sep 20, 11 12:29
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Re: Coaching services are expensive [lightheir] [ In reply to ]
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Every time I read one of your posts, this comes to mind:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LqeC3BPYTmE

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Re: Coaching services are expensive [lightheir] [ In reply to ]
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Thank you for explaining why medical care is in the state that it is.
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Re: Coaching services are expensive [Paulo Sousa] [ In reply to ]
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Paulo Sousa wrote:
Coaching is, or it should be, a service provided by a professional. It's not different from hiring a lawyer or a doctor. As for those professionals, the best ones cost a lot of money, so really, it's not that different.

So you would equate being a triathlon coach to being a doctor or lawyer, how modest of you.

I would think after spending 4 years of undergrad, and then either 3-4 years in professional school and then passing major exams that doctors and lawyers have a little
bit more cause to demand high levels of compensation than triathlon coaches. I would put hiring a triathlon coach more along the lines of hiring a plumber.

The only reason a triathlon coach would make anymore than a run or swim coach at the university level is that they have a favorable
demographic, namely wealthy egomaniacs.

*********************
"When I first had the opportunity to compete in triathlon, it was the chicks and their skimpy race clothing that drew me in. Everyone was so welcoming and the lifestyle so obviously narcissistic. I fed off of that vain energy. To me it is what the sport is all about."
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Re: Coaching services are expensive [tri_yoda] [ In reply to ]
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tri_yoda wrote:
Paulo Sousa wrote:
Coaching is, or it should be, a service provided by a professional. It's not different from hiring a lawyer or a doctor. As for those professionals, the best ones cost a lot of money, so really, it's not that different.


So you would equate being a triathlon coach to being a doctor or lawyer, how modest of you.

I would think after spending 4 years of undergrad, and then either 3-4 years in professional school and then passing major exams that doctors and lawyers have a little
bit more cause to demand high levels of compensation than triathlon coaches. I would put hiring a triathlon coach more along the lines of hiring a plumber.


Hopefully your level of reading comprehension will allow you to realize that what I wrote is in line with your last sentence. Everything else you wrote might have something to do with some personal baggage, but that's really not my business.

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Re: Coaching services are expensive [Paulo Sousa] [ In reply to ]
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Paulo Sousa wrote:
tri_yoda wrote:
Paulo Sousa wrote:
Coaching is, or it should be, a service provided by a professional. It's not different from hiring a lawyer or a doctor. As for those professionals, the best ones cost a lot of money, so really, it's not that different.


So you would equate being a triathlon coach to being a doctor or lawyer, how modest of you.

I would think after spending 4 years of undergrad, and then either 3-4 years in professional school and then passing major exams that doctors and lawyers have a little
bit more cause to demand high levels of compensation than triathlon coaches. I would put hiring a triathlon coach more along the lines of hiring a plumber.


Hopefully your level of reading comprehension will allow you to realize that what I wrote is in line with your last sentence. Everything else you wrote might have something to do with some personal baggage, but that's really not my business.

Apparently your business is plumbing or something similar.

*********************
"When I first had the opportunity to compete in triathlon, it was the chicks and their skimpy race clothing that drew me in. Everyone was so welcoming and the lifestyle so obviously narcissistic. I fed off of that vain energy. To me it is what the sport is all about."
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Re: Coaching services are expensive [tri_yoda] [ In reply to ]
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You sound grumpy, looks like you haven't had your daily meal yet...

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Re: Coaching services are expensive [tri_yoda] [ In reply to ]
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tri_yoda wrote:
Paulo Sousa wrote:
Coaching is, or it should be, a service provided by a professional. It's not different from hiring a lawyer or a doctor. As for those professionals, the best ones cost a lot of money, so really, it's not that different.


So you would equate being a triathlon coach to being a doctor or lawyer, how modest of you.

I would think after spending 4 years of undergrad, and then either 3-4 years in professional school and then passing major exams that doctors and lawyers have a little
bit more cause to demand high levels of compensation than triathlon coaches. I would put hiring a triathlon coach more along the lines of hiring a plumber.

The only reason a triathlon coach would make anymore than a run or swim coach at the university level is that they have a favorable
demographic, namely wealthy egomaniacs.

I think you underestimate how much a good plumber can make or how hard it is to become one. I for sure know people that hold themselves out to be tri coaches that did the weekend certification thing and do now know crap. It would be obvious really quick if a plumber did that as there would actually be consequences. It would likely be far easier to just read a book and declare yourself a lawyer and get away with it than a plumber.

Do I think tri coaching is expensive, sure seems like it can be. What isn't. People also seem happy to pay it. Good for them and the coach. I think that being a tri coach would be pretty annoying as I imagine that a large percentage of the clients are a total pain in the ass, have unrealistic expectations, are quick to question the money they are paying, ask stupid questions on internet forums or of other "experts" and then second guess the results when they F'd it up because they did not follow the advice or did something else stupid.

Kind of the same reason why I only zealously defend the rights of large unfeeling corporations. People are just a pain in the ass.
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Re: Coaching services are expensive [tri_yoda] [ In reply to ]
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Seriously?? Most GOOD coaches, at least have a bachelors degree, and their knowledge of the human body is extensive. Paulo has his doctorate, imagine his knowledge of the human body.


EDIT: What you're paying the extensive fees for is their knowledge, and access to it. Which I would agree is similar to a lawyer or a doctor in terms of what they need to know.
Last edited by: CJAthey: Sep 20, 11 18:02
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Re: Coaching services are expensive [CJAthey] [ In reply to ]
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i have a doctorate and i took anatomy. i even got a A. who wants to pay me?
side note, i have no desire to ever coach people. i'd just get mad at them.



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Fruit snacks are for winners
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Re: Coaching services are expensive [CJAthey] [ In reply to ]
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Since I recently e-mailed to one of our coaches on this topic, cut-and-paste makes my comment very easy for me (otherwise, I would just lurk... after all, both perceptional and reality gaps between those who coach well and those who gets coached are too far apart to bridge even on ST forum post). And this is to compliment CJAthey's "What you're paying.... is their knowledge." post.

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1. We live in a capitalist country, where free market exists. Meaning that athletes who interested in working with you, will pay you for your work. And more such athletes desire to work with you, and more of them, the more you will be working, getting to the point where your services will have to be priced UP to decrease the pool of potential candidates for your services (and also increasing your economic position).

2. No shame in charging what market will support. Think of some of the athletes we work with (software developers, consultants, art & design folks, etc. - people who can do a very specific and valuable work, quickly, accurately, professionally, etc.) - some of them, just like us, enjoy the work they do. But it seem to not present a dilemma to them or their clients or market that they are charging significant fees for something they enjoy to do... If you are confused on this - rather donate your time and skills to worthy cause than keep your coaching fees artificially low (because the demand for your services will grow, and you will be unable to meet them).

3. Do not try to discuss with potential clients (who require such discussion) on why you charging certain coaching or instructional fees. I never had good time, or been very successful in explaining to athletes how certain fees are priced. You know your concrete costs (pool rental, studio rental, travel costs, etc.) but trying to price and explain other professional component fees are dead end... How do you even start creating a common reference platform to explain why you charge $$$ for something that seemingly you can do in a short time and clearly pationate about and enjoying doing it? How can you explain that it takes your whole life to do the current job? Yes, one hour for you is the same as one hour for athlete client but client would not be able to do the required work and in the required time frame because it will take one hour PLUS a whole lifetime you already accumulated related to coaching. You spent most of your life being performance/elite level athlete, learning and observing and accumulating experience and skills that were fine tuned by years with us, learning more formal coaching trade (risk management, skills and technique instructions, client communications, narrative development, logistics skills, etc.)... so now you possess a platform of abilities and skills necessary to complete work athlete-client requires. So, view your fees not only as "per hour" costs but also (increasing with your experience) as fees for saving athlete years of self-learning, training and racing, getting things right and wrong, reading, studying, observing how instructions gets perceived and what results. But do not try to explain this to your potential client. You are a professional, and professional coach, and if such explanations about your professional value is required by client - fire him, it is not worth it. Productive coaching relationship does not contain constant underlying stress about economic value of such.

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Re: Coaching services are expensive [nedbraden] [ In reply to ]
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nedbraden wrote:
Based on the reasons given why aren't college, high school and club coaches paid better in various sports?

Supply and demand.

Mainstream sports churn out a 10000:1 ratio of amateur vs pro-level talent.

So for every pro, and pro coach, there are 9999 other people almost, but not quite, as good.

And most coaches try to hold onto their positions, or move up.
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Re: Coaching services are expensive [cowardlydragon] [ In reply to ]
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Soapbox? Oh, wow, sure.

IMHO, for beginner ironman coach should surround his plan around injury prevention. I used a modificaiton of the Jeff Galloway system of marathon training for my Ironmans, and it seems to work pretty well on me and two other guys I train with. Sure, a coach might help for the last couple percent of performance.

Problem is in triathlon, like all other things, people make it seem like they go harder and longer than they really do, and beginners in anything can't tell the fish stories from reality. I guess a coach can help with that, if they don't have honest veterans to talk to.

I think a professional coach should know how to instruct injury prevention, proper volume management and rest, and initial injury diagnosis. Intervals, lactic threshold, high volume, that's for your second Ironman. The first training cycle priority should be:

1) get to the line able to do the race
2) finish
3) finish without much run-walk
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Re: Coaching services are expensive [sirkilio] [ In reply to ]
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Disregarding that there are often times discrepancies between the cost of a coach and their ability to actually perform the job, it should not surprise anyone that good coaching costs a significant amount of $. If you want someone to commit significant personal resources to guiding you toward your goals, you ought to expect to pay them a decent wage. It's kind of similar to the photography market where some people choke at the idea of paying $400 for a few hours of a photographer's time and $500-multiple thousands for prints. The first thought is that Uncle Bob can do it for free. But the truth is that unless Uncle Bob is also a pro, he cannot give you the same effort and experience. He doesn't spend his days honing the craft, learning, investing and all other aspects of performing such a service at a professional level.

If you want to pay low prices for triathlon coaching....just go buy a book at Barnes and Noble and follow one of the canned programs in there. The effect will be the same and far lighter on your wallet. When you pay several hundred dollars a month to a coach, you're paying for a significant portion of their available resources, including their depth of experience and results in guiding athletes to achieve their goals.

I think most of the time when people take umbrage with coaching fees that they are really saying they don't have any idea what they want out of the relationship. And usually what they really want is just to NOT have to think about preparing for an event or season. For those people...any free canned program on the internet, or few dollar book are going to net similar results to just about any low-cost "coach" out there. If you really just need someone to blame for your less-than-satisfying results, I'll happily charge $50/month and I guarantee you not to have to think. I'll send you a canned email with what to do every day along with about 1000 other athletes. Just don't ask me to have to put any of my time into you personally. You didn't pay for it. I don't have time for it. Maybe Paulo does. But you're gonna have to pay him.
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