the swim time - is that at all normal? was there a current?

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Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter

Swim course here:

http://www.triangle.cc/...32&MicroSiteID=5

Cool looking course...primarily that last part in the channel.

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_________________________________
Steve Johnson
DARK HORSE TRIATHLON |

He missed the record by 90 seconds last year and shattered it this year! He said he was going for the record and it looks like the weather cooperated. Crazy fast splits in all three events.

The last 800m in the canal is amazing and sets it apart from other swim courses. Spectators are lined on either side and on footbridges overhead. Plus the lake is just beautiful - no doubt the nicest swim course I've ever done.

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VALĒRE | YouTube

Weiss goes 7:57 and is two miles behind Mario at the end!

Really, really quick.

to talk about just swim it's at least 2 minutes short - I've done Austria and I know very well what 3rd guy out of water capable of
yes, 800m with the current makes it 48 instead of 50, but 46 is too much
as they do that on the swim for the record now there is doubts about rest of the curse... what was this talk about certified curses

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Hare Krishna

how 'bout a 2:39 marathon - that's sick!

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Hilly Flats Racing

I think Chrissie Wellington would have broken 8 hours had she raced that course today.

F'n ridiculous, an incredible performance and done true triathlon style pretty much solo the whole race.

while it s a amazing performance by one amazing athlete... it would be great for the credibility of the sport that they mesure this course in the same way as we do in north america....

times might get slower by 20min but........

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Jonathan Caron / Professional Coach / ironman champions / age group world champions
Jonnyo Coaching
Instargram

a euro is worth $1.5 usd.

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Eric Reid AeroFit | Instagram Portfolio
Aerodynamic Retul Bike Fitting

“You are experiencing the criminal coverup of a foreign backed fascist hostile takeover of a mafia shakedown of an authoritarian religious slow motion coup. Persuade people to vote for Democracy.”

What's the difference in measurement?

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�He is happy whose circumstances suit his temper but he is more excellent who can suit his temper to any circumstances� David Hume

It was a sarcastic comment, in europe, there is a lot of very fast races....but when those athlete come to north america, they cant come within 30minutes of there performance in europe....... This 7:45 performance by marino is a 8:10 at ironman CDA......solid....but it s not world record performance......

.

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Jonathan Caron / Professional Coach / ironman champions / age group world champions
Jonnyo Coaching
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Why do you think they slow down in North America?

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�He is happy whose circumstances suit his temper but he is more excellent who can suit his temper to any circumstances� David Hume

jonnyo - have you or other athletes noted discrepancies from GPS or bike computers as well?

is it possible that higher average talent at european races leads to faster racing, tactically?

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Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter

no, even hawaii dosnt give those fast times.

From many pro i have talk with.....those euro course are short by miles..... this is coming from people that have won those races. Anyway, it s a great performance.... but take the time with a grain of salt..... add 20-25minutes to marino times and you get a idea of his level of performance in a north america course......

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Jonathan Caron / Professional Coach / ironman champions / age group world champions
Jonnyo Coaching
Instargram

a euro is worth $1.5 usd.

LOL. And they bought their meter stick on sale at Aldi.

I'm with you on this one jonnyo. I'm not saying this time was completely impossible, but I'd like to see some Garmin files to back up that these distances were spot on.

And to the point that better competition leads to faster racing -- this Ironman wasn't particularly competitive. 30+ min spread from 1st - 5th.

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http://ebrownracing.com | http://twitter.com/EzEBreezy
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I raced IM Austria last year. Why is it "fast" IMHO.
1. Bike course is 2 miles short, and really well paved.
2. Run was hot last year but even in the heat, it had a lot of shade. This year with the cool temps PLUS shade, it was zooming.
3. Run is flat.
4. Swim....who knows the distance but I swam my 1:07 with ZERO effort. I expected to come out way slower. I would say that the swimmer - generated "current" in that canal has to help a bit.
5. The energy of the place is out of this world. It was just a great vibe. Good vibe=good thoughts= fast times???? who knows.

Good points.

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�He is happy whose circumstances suit his temper but he is more excellent who can suit his temper to any circumstances� David Hume

Well that now is by far exaggerated. As far as the really reliable rumors go, IM AUT is - due to the currend - ~100m short on the swim, about 2-3k short on the bike and about 1k short on the run. That would make it +10min but nowhere near the 20-25min.

By way of comparison: Second tier pros like James Cunnama (sorry James you not yet right up there) who had a hard time beating Chrissie W. in Roth last year went 8:14h @ IM FL last year. Mario - third in Kona last year - is surely worth 10-15min on Cunnama.

The bike seems about 2 miles short in Austria. Swim maybe a bit short but it's hard to tell. I swam 56 there which is what I would expect in a Lake with no wind and no current. The transition area is right at the swim exit so T times should be very fast. So if you add the time for the bike and maybe a minute or two for the swim it is still a very quick time. I would "guess" that if the distances were accurate then Marino goes 7:52. Still an amazing performance by a great athlete.

The world IM record means nothing as courses vary so much in difficulty and distances are seldom accurate.

What part of the course is short? I really don't know much about it and just figured that because it is a formal race that distances would be measured to the standard Ironman length.

Not to take anything away from him but IM courses are so varied that its a token record. From the sounds of it, Austria has almost the perfect conditions.

hardly short by MANY miles....here is my garmin file from 2010...
My swim time was pretty much spot on, I swam 1:18 (goal was 1:15-1:20), the canal 800 meter was like a treadmilll and I totally backed off because it was insanely crowded....not if you are a pro though, because there are so few of you in there.
BIKE:
Distance:109.34 mi Elevation Gain:6,682 ft


RUN:
Distance:26.31 mi Elevation Gain:537 ft

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Kat Donatello
2015 Betty Designs Team
RD, The Pumpkinman Triathlon Festival
http://www.pumpkinmantriathlon.com/

I've done this swim in 59 min, Switzerland in 59 and Frankfurt in 1.00 - felt like the same to me.

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Another IM in 2016 - hopefully..

thanks for showing your GPS of the race. hopefully somebody from the race this year pipes in about the distances. It seems slightly short but so is Roth. Roth is probably more than "slightly" short. Cmon Jonnyo, you know the conditions have a big part to play. We don't see those times in Hawaii because it's frickin 95 degrees outside. Cool temperatures and aggressive bike riding on flatish courses make times in Europe faster than in North America. Macca goes 759 at Frankfurt, on a legit course, Andreas biked a 4:20 on a course that was 2k LONG last year because of construction. lets not pretend the courses in North America are any more "legit" than the ones in Europe. Some are hillier which makes for slower times and doesn't allow the appearance of being short because the times are in the 8:10-8:30 range. Last year it seemed like every other 70.3 had the run course at least a half mile short. Butterfield ran a 1:07 at our "national champs". yeah ok. Regardless...the point is that Marino just threw down and we should give some well deserved credit to the big man!


MARINO!!! that is awesome. what an amazing solo effort. LVL's record finally falls to a worthy champion. Jesus christ, 4:15 and a 2:39. Some great inspiration.

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Dan Meehan
Coach / Athlete

James Cunnama is not 2nd tier....maybe u didn't watch Quassy.

Marino is a fast dude. Much respect to him. That bike time was insane as well, 26.3mph ave for 112 is some serious power.

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_________________________
I got nothing.

Why must you ALWAYS knock performances like this? Why? Really dude, MV set a world record on the course laid out for him and yet you knock it out of what I can only imagine is jealousy or something else....Geez. If you want to go measure the course and report back fine, but until then give the guy some credit and don't denigrate his work today.

Bob

Freakin super human bike ride!

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�He is happy whose circumstances suit his temper but he is more excellent who can suit his temper to any circumstances� David Hume

quote from my first post in this thread

it s a amazing performance by one amazing athlete


you only had to take a deep breath and read carefully... i m a big Fan of Marino.....but i also look at results in a very objective way. Peter reid went 7:51 on that course with a 2:35 marathon and told me every single legs were short.... i did beleive him....


.

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Jonathan Caron / Professional Coach / ironman champions / age group world champions
Jonnyo Coaching
Instargram

Well - somebody *just* posted a GPS file showing the bike course was/is a FULL 3 MILES SHORT. That's not a negligible amount of distance or time.

I'd love for them to knock 3m off the LP course when I do it, for sure I'd be a lot faster than if I had to go the entire 112.
Swim there is already ez, so then if they could just completely flatten out the run course also, that'd be great too.
Thanks in advance to WTC for hooking a brutha up!

His result is amazing, for sure. He likely would have killed it anyplace, on a relative basis.
It's just that *that* particular course makes it easier for folks to throw down ridiculous times, especially in conditions such as they had today.

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float , hammer , and jog

And we ALL know GPS is accurate...

Bob

3 F'N MILES??? My GPS is accurate to well under 1%. Get over yourself.

I'd say if Peter Reid, who actually did the course, said it's short - it's short.

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float , hammer , and jog

I have raced IM Austria and can tell you that my swim was about 4 min faster then IM Canada/ IM LP, bike was 15 min faster and run was 10 min faster. I am normally right aroud 10hr at IM Canada/IM LP.

Swim is faster either because it is shorter or the canal, bike is faster because it is either short and hills are steep up and gradual down (opposite of IM LP), roads are in great condition. Run may be short but is shady and lots of energy.

So under normal conditions I say it's 30min faster then IM Canada or LP

thats true, but they generally read long, not short =)

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Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter

They admitted that the previous course that Peter Reid did was short during the course updates. I don't know what that's worth tho.

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Dan Meehan
Coach / Athlete

DC Rainmaker did a REALLY great post on how you can use GPC measurements to make the course both long and short. Sure 3 miles on the bike is a lot, but stranger things have happened.

Perfect example, on my ride today my GPS read 44.25 miles. My bike computer? 45.01. Google Maps? 45.2.

Bob

... Which is why so many of these fast Europeans are so far behind the Americans in Hawaii.

Oh, wait a minute, ...

johnnyo's point is that when these fast europeans race in america their OWN times in america are slower than their OWN times in many european races.

it has nothing to do with the quality of european athletes as compared to american ones.

similarly when american athletes go to those fast european courses, americans are also faster than normal.

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Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter

 

you got the wrong guy if you want to start making comparision between usa and europe. First, i m canadian, second, i m only talking courses....not athletes.....

i m very well aware of the caliber of those guys.....


.

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Jonathan Caron / Professional Coach / ironman champions / age group world champions
Jonnyo Coaching
Instargram

Wow...in-sane time. Congrats dude

"What part of the course is short?"

The part that is missing ;)

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When they kick at your front door, How you gonna come?
With your hands on your head
Or on the trigger of your gun
Paul Simonon

thank you.....!!!!

if only i could be more clear sometimes ;)

anyway, you resume it very well, i dont take anything away from anyone, just aware of the difference in courses...

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Jonathan Caron / Professional Coach / ironman champions / age group world champions
Jonnyo Coaching
Instargram

Makes you wonder if some organizers want their courses to be short for the added press and to motivate people to sign up, because they think that they will get a pr if they do the course. I'm not saying this is the case, but it does make me wonder.

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�He is happy whose circumstances suit his temper but he is more excellent who can suit his temper to any circumstances� David Hume

C'mon, really? Chrissy would have beeyatch slapped all of them--even Mario!

Well, I just finished this race today. Here's what I found. My Garmin Edge 500 had the bike course at 175K. My Garmin 310 had the run course at just under 41K. Something to conisider on this course though is that there are a lot of turns on both the bike and run. Sometimes the GPS's will end up cutting the corners when that is the case, but certainly not to those extents. It is likely a bit short for sure.

Still an amazing performance by Marino. It's too bad the course was short, it would have been a legendary performance otherwise.

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-

The Triathlon Squad

Like us on Facebook!!!

I have raced all over Europe at different distances and my Garmin has always registered short bike and/or run courses

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"Only those who risk going too far can possibly find out how far one can go." T.S. Elliot | Cycle2Tri.com
Sponsors: SciCon | | Every Man Jack

With no knowledge of the course, could road-quality have anything to do with the generally fast bikes and runs? Granted we know they are dead flat, but i've been to austria and switzerland and germany, and could see some roads allowing super fast bike times.

I'm sorry but you are out of line in your comments on this - Mario has proven his class many times ( no i dont know him or have any affiliation to him) and to publicly question the course length immediately like this shows a complete lack of class on your part - and your feeble attempt at justification (it was an amazing performance) is just that - feeble! - i'd suggest you should be deleting the post and instead posting a public appology! Should you wish to question the course length it would be appropriate to do so based on facts and figures in a separate post

This is just a question...

Are these athletes ever tested for performance enhancing drugs? Im just curious.

nobody was questioning his class

we were questioning the length of the courses like austria and roth because athletes *consistently* go a lot faster than normal at those courses.

that is completely legitimate to do and in no way speaks badly of the athletes.

why get all emotional about this? he knew he was cherry picking a fast course to go for this record.

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Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter

Question: Do WTC have guidelines about course distances?
If people are consistently reporting short (or long) courses, then WTC & the race directors would know too. Is their any directive, or WTC rule about course accuracy?

Lets admit it, triathletes love to get a PR and if they perceive it as a fast course it will help with registration #'s, no doubt. There is a reason why some people love IM Florida and Arizona, much faster courses than IMC, IMUSA and IMSG

Hmmm....

Yah, the GPS position uncertainty can create a zigzag course, reading long. But if the signal drops out, it cuts a tangent on the course -- reading short.

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"100% of the people who confuse correlation and causation end up dying."

this is more just a general reply to the tenor of this entire thread, notwithstanding a few posts that run against the grain of the discussion.
there seems to be a lot of complaint that euro courses are short, and that if these athletes raced in north america then the times would be up to half an hour slower.
i think this is total rubbish.
why? because they are better than the athletes who are typically racing in the states, and if they raced in the states (as some do) they woud crush the field.
if you consider the athletes who have recorded these fast euro times in the last decade and then compare how they have performed at kona you will see that (surpise surprise) they are the same people. you'll also see that their origin is either from australia or from europe.
what does that say? well that they are better, and go faster, and that races in the states are either soft or slow.
i remember the first time IMAZ was run there were a ridiculous number of corners in the course so as to set up a race that wouldn't inconvenience the locals. do you think that this would happen in europe?
unless i am mistaken, the course record at IMC is 8:06 by hellreigel - a smoking fast time on a moderate course. when was the last time anyone went even near that sort of result.
my argument is basically that the athletes who typically race the faster iron distance events - roth, austria, frankfurt - are the best in word and hence on a fast course they go faster. the courses may be marginally short, but 20-30 minutes? you've got to be joking.

was epo even detectable when hellriegal went that fast?

Before we spill our earl grey tea on our knickers, let's just look at some results from around the world. Here is a random list of Iron Man winners in 2010-11. You tell me if the course seems short???

Marino Vanhoenacker 7:45 Iron Man Austria
Macca 8:10 Iron man Kona

Craig Alexander � 8:19: Ironman Coeur d'Alene 2011
James Cunnama 8:15:59 Iron man Florida 2010
Schildknecht, Ronnie 08:12 Switzerland 2010
Hoffman, Ben 08:39 lake placid 2010
Fraser Cartmell 8:40 Iron Man Uk
JACOBS, Pete 08:29 Iron Man Australia
POTTS ANDY 8:15 Iron Man Cozumel
Mathias Hecht 8:32 Iron Man St. George
ZYEMTSEV, VIKTOR 8:32 Iron Man Canada

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�He is happy whose circumstances suit his temper but he is more excellent who can suit his temper to any circumstances� David Hume

I agree with you that the Europeans are faster. I did not see any Americans in the Top 10 in Austria. I have heard that IM France is not any easy course, but I did not see any Americans in the Top 10 there either.

Of course it could be logistics, the new Kona points system etc, etc.......

But Europeans do not too seem bashful about coming over here and kicking ass.

This sport needs a rivalry(ies) and a lot of shit-talking.........Slowtwitch solves half of that problem........

On a side note, I wonder if the WTC has a special financial reward for Mario setting the world record? Or, even a special financial reward for setting the course record in Kona?

Speaking of which I heard if the Raelerts go 1-2 in Kona, the spilt $1 Million (non WTC enticement)

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**All of these words finding themselves together were greatly astonished and delighted for assuredly, they had never met before**

There's no question that Europe, as in the whole continent, has a deeper field that the USA, but the question is whether 7:45 seems suspiciously fast, as in the course seems short.

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�He is happy whose circumstances suit his temper but he is more excellent who can suit his temper to any circumstances� David Hume

I guess my point, if I can express myself clearly, is that over the last decade there has been a direct correlation between those athletes that go fast in Europe and those who win in Kona. Craig Alexander is the only exception I can think of, and that is because he hasn't raced in Europe.
From this, I think that these athletes (Macca, Van Lierde, Wellington, Vanhoenacker, Raelert etc) are doing faster times because they are faster, not as the result of shorter courses. If they were slower, then they would be beaten in Kona and then everyone could say that their performances aren't legitimate. They are the best, short courses or otherwise, and to say a 7:45 is worth 8:10 in the USA is just appalling.
And as for claims about EPO use in an earlier reply well, I am as sceptical as anyone about drug use in sport, but unless you have proof well you are just slinging mud without justification, and opeing yourself up to legal redress.
It's a shame that courses can't be measured out in triathlon as they are in running.

It is an official WTC race, So I trust that the course is marked accurately. Also, if you want to bring it down to a science, following the 'best line' over 112 miles can also knock off some distance = That's how Garmin-Cervelo won the TTT today.

I think a World Record should be celebrated. But since we live in an imperfect world that is not always the case.

He has the WR by 5 minutes. Some people would call that 'Crushing............' I am on the side of it being totally legit.

I think one of the Raelert Bros is racing Roth (next weekend?)

Perhaps some ST techo-geek can measure the course beforehand?

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**All of these words finding themselves together were greatly astonished and delighted for assuredly, they had never met before**

I have only seen three 'bike' Garmin files so far, but all three have the bike course under 176kms (109miles), and two 'run' files, and both are are shorter than 41k.
It will be interesting to see what more files show.

I am on your side Bro. I agree with everything you just said.

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**All of these words finding themselves together were greatly astonished and delighted for assuredly, they had never met before**

Ironman is one word. Ironman. That's all.

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The Triathlon Squad

Like us on Facebook!!!

Ha ha, thanks.

Also, I don't think that saying the Austria course = 8:10 USA course is accurate either. But I think it would be more accurate to say that the Austria course seems very fast compared to most other courses, by a suspiciously high amount, so suspiciously high, that it would lead one to believe that it is a short course.

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�He is happy whose circumstances suit his temper but he is more excellent who can suit his temper to any circumstances� David Hume

I don't know how smooth the road is in Klagenfurt, Austria, but the roads in Roth are absolutely awesome. The best I've ridden by far (the worst of the IM circuit
have to be IMNZ ;-))

That said, I don't know where you got that there were dead flat....Roth is not flat at all. When Steve Larsen went to Roth, he came back saying it was a lot hillier than he thought/heard and compared the course to IMLP on the bike. Austria isn't flat either on the bike.

Thank you!!
It was pretty bad - I tell people that I rode 5.43, but the road surface added 15 minutes, so I really should have gone sub 5.30.
Well... I don't really, because nobody really cares ;)

re imnz bike course:

being from nz, it always feels like you are flying when you ride in europe etc...

As I said in my previous post, I raced here in Austria yesterday, and you can see how fast times get posted here. It is HIGHLY likely that both the bike and run courses were slightly short. The bike course was likely anywhere from 3-5K short and the run course was likely 1.5K short (approx.). There are a lot of turns on both the bike and run, so you can see how a Garmin might cut the corners. Over an iron distance ride and run, you can see how this might add up.

Other factors that make this a FAST course (at least yesterday) were:

1 - The roads in Austria are awesome!! There might have only been a few K (out of the full 90K loop we did twice) that had rough pavement. Other than that, totally totally awesome road conditions!! Best I have ever ridden for that length of time.
2 - Yesterday, you could not have asked for better weather to do an Ironman. It was sunny/overcast the whole day, little to no wind and no rain. The temperatures were cool to start the day, but quickly warmed up to a very comfortable low 20's Celcius or low to mid 70's farenheit with no humidity. It was incredible.
3 - The fan support on both the bike and run was top notch. Tonnes of crowds at the top of the climbs on the bike and the run course had spectators the whole way. Very fun!!
4 - The setup of the bike course is super fast. Yes each loop has about 2,700 ft (a little over 800m) climbing on each loop, but after the climbs, the decents are moderate and allow you to pick up and hold high speeds. The scenery on the bike was incredible and I never felt bored for a second!
5 - The last 25K of the bike back into town is super fast. Mostly downhill and allows you to get your cadence up without pushing big watts. I think this leads to some fresher legs starting the run.
6 - Finally, I have no idea if the swim is short or not, but I'd say it's a fast swim. Pretty open start (mind you it did bunch up pretty good about 500m in) and once you reach the canal, the current from all the swimmers certainly helps out a lot. The water quality in this race is likely some of the best in any Ironman anywhere. It was amazing!

I'm from Canada, so doing this race comes with a pretty expensive pricetag to get here, but I would highly recommend this race to anyone. Not just to set a potential PB, but for the overall experience. It was my first IM, and it certainly was a memorable one. I had an incredible time.

This make two races for me this year where new world records (sort of anyway) were set! Boston marathon and IM Austria. I guess I've had good luck with race conditions this year.

If interested, I did 9:30 and still only came in 44th in my AG (M35-39). The winner went 8:33. That's rediculous!

Well, just an confirmation of my statemend. Did he beat any first tier Ironman pros at Quassy? I do not see anyone of the likes of Macca, Crowie, A. or M. Raelert, Bracht, Vanhoenacker, Tissink, Llanos, Bockel, Henning etc.? And is Bozzone first tier? His best in Kona is still outside of the top 10 as fas as I know.

but the roads in Roth are absolutely awesome.

Word

Pavement quality is a HUGE factor in a fast bike split.

I have heard that IMNZ is basically chipseal. Chipseal to the point of bonejaring fatigue. But that is only what I have heard.

If Roth and Austria courses are on smooth 'rubberized' asphalt, that is very significant.......as much or moreso than the aerodynamic qualities of any frame or wheelset.

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**All of these words finding themselves together were greatly astonished and delighted for assuredly, they had never met before**

I gotta say, the inability of race organizers to measure a course and make sure it is dead on accurate diminishes the credibility of this sport. I am by no means a pro, but if I was a pro like you that puts in an amazing amount of effort to rise to the top, the least I would expect is that race organizers did their part. Can you imagine if the Wimbledon organizers said after the world class tennis tournament that they inaccurately placed the lines?!?!?! That is the standard which I believe the sport of triathlon should be striving for. People may find that hard core, but I speak as a spectator now (I have not done a triathlon since 1994) so I might be more of a measure of how society would view this sport.

I love triathlons...but this stuff is damn irritating and I would hate to invest so much time into training only to find out that my great race result is not so great after all.

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________________
Adrian in Vancouver

Did you see any drafting on the course by chance?

There was a lot of officials on the course, and they did what they could, but there was drafting. I would not say that it was drafting to cheat, but drafting because things got bunched up on the hills, etc. I find that when you get in a race with a lot of guys who have similar ability, it's a bit hard to stay out of it, especially when the speeds vary so much from the up and downs. If it was flat and you could hold a steady speed the whole time, minimizing the drafting would be easier to do.

I certainly didn't see anyone out there that I thought was outright cheating, but there was definitely a lot of people in close proximity at times (myself included). The second loop was better than the first obviously.

Yes, IMNZ is basically chipseal. Chipseal to the point of bonejaring fatigue. Nah, just kiwi roads, nothing unusual for us, though I must say that riding on concrete or blacktop is soooo fast and smooth and is a welcome treat on the long rides. If you were used to that, then the chipseal would probably kick your ass.

Aucklandbicyclecouriersrepresent

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bikemessengersrepresent

Can you imagine if the Wimbledon organizers said after the world class tennis tournament that they inaccurately placed the lines?!?!?!

Tennis courts are typicaly smaller format than an Ironman race course.

There's no reason to trip out if the course is a little bit short or a little bit long.

One should always expect a slight margin for error in everything they do. To not expect or anticipate this is to be the comsumate fool.

When I used to be something around here, I posted a race report of a race that I was proud of with a very fast run split (1/2 IM) A guy who was not at the race, in fact is on the other coast says "I heard the run course was 500 meters short."

Obvious dig at my PR and I did not like it.

Can I at least have my moment?

This place can be a drag from time to time. Everyone wants to crush dreams, but no-one confesses to ones dreams being crushed, and that is an integrity violation of the very highest order.

I don't like how a world record plays out around here. It should be cause for celebration

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**All of these words finding themselves together were greatly astonished and delighted for assuredly, they had never met before**

All very predictable isn't it!

US courses are in the main, tougher than many of the European ones and the roads are perhaps not as smooth. That's going to help for starters, even if we ignore the "all American races are accurate & the Euro ones short" BS.

Either send over some of your top boys to show their mettle, or quit whining.

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29 years and counting

Either send over some of your top boys to show their mettle, or quit whining.

That's what I am talking about!!

USA!! USA!!

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**All of these words finding themselves together were greatly astonished and delighted for assuredly, they had never met before**

Having done Austria I'm going to call you out on this. The bike is short by 3km. Other than that its bang on.

Its a fast course with a fantastic road surface, sheltered from the wind and the short steep hills have long rolling descents.

I know this is a US site and hence the belief that Americans are the top dogs in long course racing - look at the 2010 kona results, no USA in top ten, only 3 in top 20. Why this misconception that Americans, and American races, are the top dog persists I don't know. The last time an American won Kona?

"In an effort to maintain a professional field at the World Championship Events, the following standards are in place for 2011.To earn a qualifying slot for Kona or Clearwater, an PRO athlete must finish within 5% of the winner's time"


Too bad for Marko Albert that he�s not professional enough :-) If they apply the 5% rule the cut of for going to Kona in MPro would be 8:04 and Marko had 8:08h, back to training ;-)

Like IMFL you mean? ;-)

IME, the drafting in Austria was pretty bad ('09). My wife took some photos and there were some outrageous 'pelotons'; I was also caught by several large packs of guys who didn't look like they were that keen to extricate themselves from the group. I certainly think this accounts for many of the fast AGer bike splits. Some of the worst offenders were the slower female pros/top female AGers....flame away.

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29 years and counting

I raced yesterday..there is no current in the channel. It basically a dead end. the bike coarse is spot on in length. Drafting yes, but not worse then you'll find at any IM. The people here are just flat out FAST!

Did you race with a GPS/speed sensor to confirm the bike course was 112 miles? I raced in 09 & 10 and found the bike course to be short.

Compared to my admittedly limited experience at other IMs (also including IM Switzerland, IM South Africa & Kona), this race has the worst drafting I've witnessed.

I'm with you 100% on the second point. Someone mentioned it earlier in the thread - a fast course attracts fast competition. The Euro athletes train hard and race harder.

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VALĒRE | YouTube

Agreed. Austria is the worst drafting I've witnessed in a big race too. There's a photo my wife took at halfway and a lone guy is sat about 2m off my wheel - max! He came past me about 30 mins later complaining he had a 6 min penalty to serve. Serves the fecker right.

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29 years and counting

I destroyed the Ironman World Record at the Providence 70.3 a few years ago when I went 4:21.

Well, you've clearly just lost all credibility. Bozzone is a 70.3 World Champion. And no. Cunnama is not 2d tier either.

Except IM France, Mont Ventoux Triathlon, Alpe d'Huez tri, Tristar Monaco and Embrunman and Lanzarote....only the slow Euros show up at those races :-)

Huh?

Are you another person who thinks this is a debate about us athletes vs european ones?

nobody is disputing that the european triathletes are generally the faster athletes!

come ON internet, rise above yourself!

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Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
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Now we are talking real ST language! Thank you very much, dear "friend"!

But alright, let's go by definition first: My sefinition of 1st tier Ironman - meaning full, not half distance - Pro is the Top 10 potential in Kona.

Neither of Bozzone nor of Cunnama have I seen performances in recent years that would suggest this. Yes, Bozzone won Clearwater in 2008 but that was - surprise - a half Ironman. He finished 20 in Kona last year and lost 10min to BRownie at IM NZL this spring.

But let'S be honest: In your eyes are Cunnama and/or Bozzone at the same performance level of Macca, Crowie, A. Raelert, Vanhoenackers, Brownie & Bracht?

Sorry, my jist was the predictable (general) whining about Euro courses on ST, the last bit about US athletes was just a throw-away line to see if anyone bit :0) I'm quite happy to acknowledge that a lot of the US events are tougher courses anyway, hence the slower finish times and as to their accuracy - well it's not for me to judge or comment on.

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29 years and counting

Tougher courses or just bad courses?

Having seen the videos (from my CT) of some of the US courses if a bike course like the ones in IM Wisconson or Placid were rolled out in Europe the races wouldn't last. Brutal courses - horrible amount of turns, on open roads, congested, one of them had switchbacks in a car park, and another goes under and around underpasses of bridges? I couldn't get over the fact that the roads weren't fully closed for the races.

Course design has alot to play here as well.

yeah I don't know if the euro courses tend to be shorter either.

better roads could explain the bike splits

are the run splits outliers too?

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Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter

The run splits are outliers. There were 9 sub 9's in 35-39, 8 sub 9's in 40-44 and 8 sub 9:20's in 45-49. The swims are not that much off, and we know the bike is short....but on the run, many are putting down prozone times, with several splits in the 2:49-2:52 range. Even a guy in 45-49 ran 2:51. Those are pro zone run times, not typical age grouper times. While I credit the strength of the athletes, you don't get THAT many guys all putting down prozone times. I would lean towards the run course being somewhat short.

All you need is a turn around cone to be a few 100m off that you go around four times....you're instantly a mile short. I don't know if there is such a turnaround.

Part of the reason why IM Austria instantly sells out and Ironman Switzerland does not even sell out is because the relative "speed" of the Austria course. It's part of the event's marketing. There is a vested interest on the part of the race organization for the course to be fast, so I don't put it past anyone to intentionally nudge things towards the short end.....lots of things made a bit shorter, all add up to a lot of time saved.

The switchbacks on the IMLP course through the parking lot by transition are pretty quick and filled with fans. They are actually pretty fun. European athletes would love the IMLP course (well, aside from the current horrible pavement situation).

The roads are even better in Germany than Austria. In Roth there was one rough patch about 100m long, and even that's been tarmac'd now. I recently went back to Bavaria to race, and the contrast with UK roads is stark.

As far as the run at Austria, well I never use GPS, I can see that it's useful for pacing (but then without the mental arithmetic how will I amuse myself!) but also, it's never going to be 100% accurate in an IM event - so I'd rather not worry about it.

The run split that surprised me the most was Weiss. In isolation I would have raised my eyebrows, but when you compare it to Vanhoenacker, you can see Michi has really raised his game. Maybe this was helped by not slaughtering himself on the bike? (albeit he still rode 4:16!). The first two were way out ahead, so they were genuine world-class performances. If you look at Tom Lowe, he was pretty much the same time as IMAZ last Nov; so these two are blowing away a guy who went 8:11/2 at IMAZ and IMA.

The guys doing Roth on Sunday have really had the goal posts moved; I know they've been hyping it as Sebi & Andreas in a battle to break the record. A lot depends on the weather over here (there). If it's a killer hot day, they're up against it.

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29 years and counting

It save to assume that the courses in europe are short. Really. Even most local races are too short. The only occasion you can assume the distance to be correctly noticed in the course description is if the race is a bit too long. Then the correct distance is always very precisely noticed on the event website.

Why is it safe to assume that? Are you feeling inadaquate?

That's funny....we just got an update from IM Switzerland saying that they are having to add 3.4K to the bike course and 66 m of elevation to do a detour around some construction. I categorized this as Swiss precision, but maybe you are closer to the truth :-)

Nice race

Thom

GPS, bike and Run...spot on. They changed the Trans Area and added alittle leg just off the 2-way part of the bike. The bike is butter smooth with a few climbs. nothing back breaker. The run is fun, but a little choppy.

these guy's (and Gal's) flat out fly.....
All in All it's a MUST DO!

As a european I have some decent pb's that mean absolutely nothing. It is just my observation that you should never look at the times. It is absolutely pointless because there are sadly enough race directors who have no problems with not noticing that their ironman race is 5k short, or that their oly bike course is only 36k.

Interesting. I was hearing rumors of the bike being 4k short and the run 1k short, but like I said, rumors.

Going back to the US vs Euro bike courses, whilst there are some crazy fast races on the continent, there's also a ton of races with tough bike courses. IM Lanzarote, IM France, Embrunman, Monaco, Norseman, just to name a few. Either way, it's the same story no matter where you are - in general, fast courses sell out fast, slow courses sell out slow. The majority of competitors want a PB more than a challenging course.

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VALĒRE | YouTube

I wish I was that accepting. If I was paying over a thousand dollars to be in a race, the least the race organizers could do is make sure it is legit. I am a pretty lax person, but on this point I am firm. I may do one IM before I am 10 feet under, and for that IM I will make sure it is legit.

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Adrian in Vancouver

There has to be some kind of technology out there that allows one to precisely determine bike and run course accuracy.

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**All of these words finding themselves together were greatly astonished and delighted for assuredly, they had never met before**

Yes and it�s not a GPS. As far as a know they have to use a special car to measure the marathon run course in the olympics and world champs.

No, it's actually done with a special bicycle. It's got a distance measuring device on it. Not an ordinary computer and in no way related to GPS. I've a contact who's certified by the IAAF to measure run courses. He did the Sydney Marathon, I should see him again in two weeks so I'll ask him about it.

It never ceases to amaze me how wrong triathlon Race Directors get it. Problem is, they just don't get it.

I smell a business opportunity.........

Many marathons and other running events are 'Certified" for accuracy, so why not in triathlon?

Or am I mistaken and is there some kind of 'Seal of Approval' that I am not aware of?

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**All of these words finding themselves together were greatly astonished and delighted for assuredly, they had never met before**

Confirmed!

It was a wet day, and at some points, the roads were so rough that I would gradually slip forward down the aerobars &have to re-adjust my position.
Occasionally, I would hit a 100-200 meter smooth patch (at an intersection or something), and the speed would go up a couple of kph.

Marathons and other standard road distances are part of IAAF and because track records are 100% accurate, there was a need to make road distances as robust as possible. The measurement (by calibrated Jones counter attached to bicycle wheel) allows for 0.1% 'over distance' as an additional 'assurance'.
Shorter race distances also have credibility when for example you need a certain time in an HM to qualify for NYC or just in general to attract runners who are keen to have a 'proper' PB.
Triathlons have never had that need , plus what is the point if say IM A has short transition areas and IM B has very long ones. Standardisation across IMs will have to standardise those distances too. Plus triathletes are a lot more relaxed about those PBs given the variation in courses.
However, if someone then runs 2:39 at one of these 'uncertified' events then all you can say is "he ran 2:39 at IM Austria". You cannot compare it to another uncertified course nor to a certified stand alone marathon, nor can anyone claim it is a WR

All you can say in this case is that he did the fastest IM time ever but it is not a WR (if one can understand the difference in that).

From personal experience 'uncertified' almost always means 'short' . Garmins 'over-read', odometers over-read and hey ..if the RD hasn't put the effort in to measure it the time consuming correct way, why would it be accurate?...if it was, then the IAAF method would be superfluous and a waste of time.

As for GPS/garmins...mostly 'over-read' (so if a few of them read short that would cast even more doubt), but if you edit the way points on a program such as sportracks you would get it within a ball hair of the 'proper' certified course.
So if anyone has the GPS file then post it so that it can be edited and the argument settled

You could well have a valid point dev. But since you mentioned guys putting down prozone times, I know for a fact at least 2 of the top-4 in M40 were racing on pro cards last season, before WTC changed the system. I'm sure there is a good sprinkling of ex 2nd-tier pros now racing AG. We all know too, that there are AGers out there training like pros; many of us will know of one or two. I've heard them referred to as "quasi Age Groupers" on certain podcasts.

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29 years and counting

the year I did it we hit a short smooth patch on the way back into town on the second loop and everybody in the line let out an audible sigh, woo hoo, woot, or some other sound of relief as we went over the smooth part.

roughest race I've ever done. Wish I didn't have an aluminum bike back then.

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6700 feet of climbing? I find that very hard to believe. A notoriously 'fast' course (regardless of distance issues) has 1000+ more feet of climbing than IMC and IMLP? That doesn't seem right.

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Any run that doesn't include pooping in someone's front yard is a win.

This whole thread seems somewhat pointless. What is everyone going on about? He put in the fastest ever time on that ironman course, it seems to be the fastest IM event and so he put in the fastest IM time? every IM course is different, some are harder than others some and quicker etc etc. This guy is damn fast. He is not the best IM racer over all or ever but he is up there. This is a great course for him.
What matters is that 2000 or so people started, he went fastest and so he wins. Anyone who wants to challenge his world record (or what ever) should go do that race next year and if they are better they will ge the crown. This moaning about getting measuring tapes out is pointless. Never mind the talk about Euro this and American that WTF - you cant say either one is better or worse or tries harder. based on what?
Also, talk about courses is pointless, what about the weather. You could take the flattest course on earth that was short by 5 miles but if you add in an f'ing hard head wind then no records will get smashed? , no?
The last thing these 2000 or so people need to hear is this rubbish about courses being short - by how much? who gives a crap? if you were racing there then great you get the same advantage, if not then so what?

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http://longwaytogo-ironman.blogspot.com/

Isn't it 6 feet under?!!....your 4ft too deep...not an accurate grave measurement...an illegal grave or is 4ft within the permissable deviations!

Well said sir. Why is it when somebody puts in a mind blowing performace in Europe the majority here want to find a way to knock it down?

Why not just celebrate the fact that this was and is a truely great performace - end of.

I do find it somewhat irritating that according to many here all European races are ALWAYS short and US courses are ALWAYS spot on.

Instead of bitching and whining why not take a step back and applaud a magnificent performance.

hmm...just like Roth is a pancake? Roth has 2000m of climbing (about 6800ft). As I said earlier in this thread,
Steve Larsen went to Roth and compared the course to IMLP, even said he thought it was harder on the bike.
Don't underestimate how a smooth surface can make a huge difference.

it s a matter of credibility of the sport. We can't applaud a performance as a official world record when there is a full 5km missing on the bike and a little more than 1km on the run. At his pace, this represent about 7min on the bike and 3:45 on the run so 10:45 total time missing.

We need a new level of precision like marathon do. I do not agree with other poster that ironman should have a ''margin of error'' It should be spot on. Why is it that ironman Canada is spot on and certified for boston marathon qualification. why cant other races does the same.

It was truly a amazing race by marino. but it is difficulte to reconise it as world record with the missing distance.... it isnt a full lengh ironman.


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Jonathan Caron / Professional Coach / ironman champions / age group world champions
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You must have done a different Roth to everyone else Francois. It's got ca.1440m climbing (well I made it 14**m both times), certainly nowhere near 2000m. Even IM France doesn't have that much!

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29 years and counting

I hear what you say about the world record bit and agree that there should be stricter regulations on how these courses are measured.

But making each course exactly spot on is not necessarily going to change anything in the regard of recognising a 'true' world record or making the sport more credible.

I also don't buy it for one minute that ALL American courses are spot on just because most US based athletes seem to say they are.

Don't forget that each Ironman varies drastically in many ways unlike a marathon or track events. As others have said road surface, course profile, weather conditions play a huge factor in distances as long as an Ironman and therefore no course is ever going to stack up to be the same, regardless of exact measurements.

If it wasn't the course length people on here would still be whining about other factors. Athlete was drafting, athlete had impecable road surfaces, athlete had a tailwind, cool temperatures, current in the water etc, etc.

From reading this thread and others it seems to me people are very quick to play down a performace and look for reasons it is not credible rather than the other way around.

Jonnyo, your missing the point...The point is that no 2 IM courses are the same!!! is there going to be a set hight you have to climb with a set %? Is the water going to have the same amount of salt? what about swim races where you have to run 20 meters? is that going to be taken off the marathon?
Its an IM race, thats it. Its the fastest time ever recorded on an IM course in the world..ever. full stop. As I already said, those who contest it, fly over and race it. step up to the plate and show the Europeans how its done hey? anyone? rather than complaining about short courses.

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http://longwaytogo-ironman.blogspot.com/

I stand corrected. I searched quickly online and found 2000m. IM France is at 1800m if I remember well.

No, you are missing the point. All marathon courses are different, however, they all measure 42195 meters. Really, it's a very easy concept to grasp, you should make an effort to understand it.

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wow....this is complicated concept for you.

A ironman, 3.8km swim 180km bike 42.195 run

what else is so complicated about it.... i m ok with fast course, fast pavement, shade, hills, good weather.... all race are different. But one unacceptable thing is to call someting a ironman when you omitted 5km on the bike and a full 1km on the run......

.i m simply asking for accuraccy and it s beyound reconise that austria as been missing lenght for the past 10 years....

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Jonathan Caron / Professional Coach / ironman champions / age group world champions
Jonnyo Coaching
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Your not convicing me. again your going to the distances. What about the run in between two loops of the swim in some courses? Do they all have that? what about distances in transition? is that measured? its part of your race time. Your being pedantic about this. Is there no one from IM on this forum? what do they say about it?
Paulo Sousa you can kiss my arse for this comment "you should make an effort to understand it." Im saying that Jonnyo is missing my point, he still is in my opinion but I guess thats not going to change. Is anyone exactlly 100% sure of what the race distance was? if so how have you come to this distance?

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Just a little effort. Just a tiny little effort. I'm sure you can do it.

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If only your genius could be passed through the pulses of the interweb, then we could all be great like you. I live in hope ;)

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Exactly ...it's an IM race i.e. 3.8/180/42.195, which should be the same for every IM race if you want to make any comparison about times posted between them. It is then up to race organisers to ensure that the transitions are as short as possible.

What is so hard to understand about this? By your logic the next IM on the circuit could be 3.5/160/35 and then we can rave about a sub 7hr without anyone questioning the course length.

The reality is that unless a course says "certified according to...." it is unlikely to be accurate because if it were then it would be simple for the RD of that race to ask for certification.

As an RD of a (running) race that uses marathon times as qualifiers I do not accept IM leg times unless the entrant produces evidence of certification...that hasn't been the case yet.

Its an IM race, thats it. Its the fastest time ever recorded on an IM course in the world..ever. full stop.


It is until you understand that over much of triathlons history accurate event course measurement has been rather hap-hazard, and a bit of a wild-west show right up to the highest echelons of the sport. I am not sure why the sport collectively and specifically the biggest events in the sport, don't take this more seriously. It makes the sport look a little silly.

With athletics and running, there is a very specific protocol that must be followed to measure a course accurately and seek the appropriate certification and sanctions. To the best of my knowledge, there is no such thing done in triathlon.

Of course it helps if you understand the politics and dynamics of the sport particularly when it comes to Ironman - Ironman is a brand and the WTC is a private for profit race management and marketing company, that can do whatever they like. They even make up some of their own rules or seek dispensations from governing bodies in respective countries. It's also important to know that the ITU, the World Governing body for the sport of triathlon and the WTC, have historically not got on very well.

As to the accuracy of their courses, I am sure they are close, but from what I know, there is way more variation from course to course, than would be allowed by say, the IAAF for running races.

There have been rumours about the IM Austria course for years ( about it being slightly short). It would be great if the WTC would come forward and clear all this up. It would also be great if some form of certification and sanctioning process was in place.

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Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

Let me be the second person to Paulo Sousa to state that you are missing the point. I can't believe that you are that ignorant of the message that Jonnyo is trying to make. You may or may not agree with what Jonnyo is saying, but you can't seriously be this ignorant of his message.

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My marathon PR is "under three, high twos. I had a two hour and fifty-something."

Nope! Not even the organizers of Roth claim that much climbing. They claim 1.300m (3.900ft) which is what I also had after adjusting my GPS data at Garminconnect ( http://connect.garmin.com/activity/95078966 ) For Rorth let's not forget you get a net loss of ~50m (150ft): it's a two loop course with T2 10k away from T1.

I am not saying that an IM can be any distance. Its supposed to be as you stated and I agree that it should be that. Everyone and their dog has theories about what the distance actually was, what was it officially? Has it been certified as being wrong? The race has been going for years and years, its an official IM event (I believe) so surely IM have to agree the distance?
Its the tone of this thread that gets to me. Whats this certification that you want them to get? how much does it cost to get? is that not going to push up the price that people already complain about?
Is it an official world record? I guess if there is no certification then it cant be so who cares? if it is, then its up to the world record people to check the distances.
I know the point I am trying to get accross, I am obviously crap at doing that so I am sorry to have offended the wise on ST.
Do all the people who have ever done Austria now have to hang their heads in shame, remove any tatoos and give back medals? after all its not an IM race if its too short?

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http://longwaytogo-ironman.blogspot.com/

This is what I am trying to say. If everyone knows that IM make up the rules as they go along then why complain? just dont do the races and dont listen to the hype.

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http://longwaytogo-ironman.blogspot.com/

right, im going to go school my self up about IM races all around the world. I am then going to come back here and either admit defeat of crush all those who dare to argue.
One quick question before I go on my quest...I really want to know about the little run bit in the swim. how is that factord into the race distance and also is there an official T1 and T2 distance?

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http://longwaytogo-ironman.blogspot.com/

OK I suppose you are coming at it from a different angle. But the bottom line is that then there should be no reference to 'fastest IM time' or 'WR IM' , it should only be 'fastest IM Austria' etc.
It makes a mockery of the sport when thresholds such as 8hrs and 7:45 etc are broken and there is no telling whether it is short...ok we assume it is short.

Every serious runner who has busted his gut breaking certain times such as 30min or 2:30 does not believe OG distance 30min 10km splits or even this blokes 2:39 because we have come to accept that triathlons don't measure their courses.

You could start with GPS files then editing the outlying waypoints.

As for T1 and T2 , even in road running there is no certifiaction limit to how much 'longer' the course is , so it is up to the individual race organiser to ensure the T's are as short as possible

its a fair point but this guy isnt trying to be the best runner at 2:39 for the marathon, he i trying to finish IM Austria as fast as possible and he did it faster than any other human has ever done it. Lots of pro swimmers probably dont agree with the swim times and lots of cyclists probably think using a tri bike is cheating but were talking about an IM race not a run or a swim or a bike race. I do get it, even if it took a few Sosa genius brain waves to knock it in my head. I honestly do, I just dont agree with it. Its an IM race until its been officially certified as being wrong and then IM need to get their butts in gear and sort it out. Whats the list of officially certified races? I am guessing they are all US based?

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People like you do make me look like a genius. Come to think of it, it might be the main reason I hang out at this place.

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:)

touche

have a good one. ciao
Johan

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http://longwaytogo-ironman.blogspot.com/

It wasn't that difficult for me to understand the point he was making. Go on, try a little harder yourself next time. I'm sure you can manage it.

How do they equalise road surface, exposure to wind, temperature, air density, humidity............................................

http://www.bikemap.net/route/895153

This is from the website. It's less that .5 of a mile short
http://www.bikemap.net/route/892336
Run is 26.2
Is that not the route? Can someone who raced it provide a gps download just so we can see how short this race really was? .5 of a mile isn't worth talking about, u could cut more than that by taking a race line through corners.

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http://longwaytogo-ironman.blogspot.com/

Your post suggests to me you don't even need to try to look dumb. Congrats! That's an exceptional feat.

No no no, I know it's not a flat course. I just didn't think it had that much climbing. I was thinking something like ~3000 feet of climbing, not flat but not mountainous. I'll just have to get over there and give it a shot!

Osoyoos Half this weekend, too bad you're not here!

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Any run that doesn't include pooping in someone's front yard is a win.

Oh yeah? Well the jerk store called and they're running out of you!

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This is like tag team wwf. Shit but fun to watch.

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The logistics of setting an ironman course are not as simple as say a Marathon. For a marathon, you decide where the finish is and then set the start to be 26.2 miles away. For an IM, you need a swim venue, that can also hold a transition area, a bike course that needs to be th correct distance and come back to the transition area or finish at the second transition area, then a run route that ends at the desigated finish. The .logistics of the routes may prevent the course being exact, unless you want WTC to start building new roads to ensure the distance is correct.

The best you can hope for is the actual distances to be advertised, so that performances can be viewed in the light of the distance ran.

Hehe, well played! I already know this though and it's why they phoned you first ;-)

Aha, I am saved! Someone with brains has managed to deliver my point. I need to learn how to get my thoughts across but for now this will do : X2

The quest goes on...

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http://longwaytogo-ironman.blogspot.com/

You are welcome!

I get the impression that not too many people are involved in race organisation on here. Most races will not be accurate distances due to the logistics involved, even the american ones! Unless of course, they simply run out to a dead turn around point.

Hilarious! Thanks for the laugh. See the problem...I have to overcompensate just to make sure when I am buried that I am at least 6ft - just like triathlons.

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Adrian in Vancouver

That's a brave statement. Tell that to the hundreds of new ironmen in Austria on Sunday that there achievement isn't valid coz the course is too short.

I have already said I was. I am also a course measurer.

You cannot set a marathon start 42.195km (26.2M) away That is not how it works. The same logistics apply. The certification rules also require you to finish within 50% displacement of the start and have less than 0.1% elevation loss. This is why most certified courses start and finish at same place and why Boston was not WR.
It is quite easy to do this and no, you don't need to build new roads.
'Logistics' is an excuse otherwise the next race could have a 160km bike leg and 35km run leg...where do you draw the line?

Thanks Ollie. Very concise. I didn't know that about the marathon, and in particular about the Boston marathon.

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�He is happy whose circumstances suit his temper but he is more excellent who can suit his temper to any circumstances� David Hume

I've done a pretty extensive analysis on athlete's perfromances and course ratings on Thorsten's Triathlon Rating. (Have a look at course ratings in the main menu, I'll update these after the Austria analysis.) This analysis just looks at results from different athletes between different courses. If there are a decent number of athletes it is possible to statistically distinguish between an athlete just having a good race and the course being quicker than another one. (Regardless of why that would be the case - easier climate, better road surface, even short courses - although I don't believe that this plays a major role.)

Some highlights from the latest course ratings:
- IM Lake Placid - 1:54
- IM Hawaii -0:14
- IM CdA 4:25
- IM Florida 13:38
- IM Austria 17:32
- Challenge Roth 18:54

What this means is that Austria is about 18 minutes quicker than Hawaii. So Marino's 7:45 from Austria would be pretty comparable to van Lierde's course record in Kona.

That seems a good way of looking at this. Is Roth known to be a shorter distance? whats making it so much faster? Is there any data on Challenge Copenhagen?
Interesting stuff.

Johan

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http://longwaytogo-ironman.blogspot.com/

The Challenge Cairns bike course was about two miles long so I guess that makes Macca even more of a legend and me getting even more value for money..

.......

I haven't done Challenge Copenhagen yet, probably do that over the summer. Roth is just a lightning quick - easy swim in a canal (no sighting issues), fast bike course for strong cyclists (short, steep hills and long gradual declines that you can push), and running on paths that are easy on the legs. Just saw a Roth thread on this forum that discusses these things. To the best of my knowledge, the current course is _not_ short.

ok. so if someone went fastest on that course we would all be happy to call it a world record? I dont think its certified either is it? To me it sounds like there is no way anyone could ever set an Ironman world record and make everyone on ST happy. I guess the message to IM organisers is to get the course certified and there needs to be some kind of none profit body that does this measurement so that it doesnt lead to prices going up.

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http://longwaytogo-ironman.blogspot.com/

Sorry, but this is ST; it must be short ;0) FWIW the transitions are very short in Roth - which also saves precious time.

Anyway, how long before a full-time, juiced-up 'Age Grouper' goes sub-8.

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29 years and counting

Now that would be a good way to get my point accross! go sub 8 and have the gps data to prove it. Just the small matter of job, family, lack of endurance and a good 2+ hours to make up....better get some more carbon and an aero lid.

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Don't forget to eat plenty of Spanish beef too =0)

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29 years and counting

Even if I pumped myself full of every known "aid" I think it would be a tough call. I am more likely to go for the motor in the bike, then again I would have to do the bike leg in 2 hours to allow myself enough time to self propel myself around the marathon quick enough

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http://longwaytogo-ironman.blogspot.com/

Its not about making ST people happy its about doing the right thing to make everyone happy.

As for cost there are two ways of doing it.

One (or more) of WTC people can go on an IAAF measurement training session, get qualified etc for maybe max $1,500 (even that is steep)...isn't that what it costs for two entrants?

....or pay a certified guy to do it at probably $1,000 per course.

I know which one is cheaper but either way that is not contributor to why you are paying $700 and people pay less than $100 to run the prestigious Comrades ultra.

That's a whole new thread, yes the races are expensive but they are also all sold out - as a business that makes sense.
I am perfectly happy the way thing are as far as course distances go, maybe a few others are too. I know what your saying and it makes sense, just trying to inject a little humor into what is otherwise pretty dull stuff. I would still say that the race he raced made him the quickest IM race ever. Not on the hardest course fair enough in fact it could be the quickest ever course but that's not the point. Don't think you will all agree but that's the way it goes. My quest is over and I am wiser for it. Never knew about the marathon stuff so I have learnt something there. I have also learnt not to mess with paulo sauso (sorry don't remember the spelling), maybe that should be in the things to know about this forum section.

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Just for information, I raced Austria Sunday and the weather conditions were perfect. I saw quite a few people wearing long sleeves on the bike which gives an indication how cool it felt at 7am. Bike course is a little short but the new transition set up is much slower and even Marino had to rack his own bike!.....and if he found the exit from the tent to the run first time he could have shaved another few seconds off the record.

What this means is that Austria is about 18 minutes quicker than Hawaii. So Marino's 7:45 from Austria would be pretty comparable to van Lierde's course record in Kona. //

WHich just shows how under estimating your formula really is. There is plenty of data that shows that he cannot even come close to that 8;04, looks like you have to add 15 more minutes to get near the real world in your calculations..

I dont know why there is so much talk about this race... it is irrelevant. Tim O'Donnell got 6.63 KPR/minute for coming in 2nd in Texas.... where Mariano Vanhoenacker only got 4.29 KPR/Minute

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Checkout http://www.iotexpert.com

Monty,

I'll bite .. hope this does not end in a flamewar ;-) All I'm trying to do is analyze the data and try to figure out what it means. It's good to have someone from "real life" cross-check what the math comes up with!

So .. statistics is always a bit trickier and needs more qualifications than a single sentence can offer, so please bear with me. The 18 minutes difference between Austria and Hawaii is based on an average year and an average athlete. What do I mean with that?

- "Average year" means that the race conditions are average, i.e. not a fast year (e.g. nice cold temperatures) or a slow year (e.g. a lot of wind) on both of the courses. Austria this year was an exceptionally good year - the "adjustment" of 23:59 was the biggest I have ever observed. If we compare this year's Austria to an average Kona, the difference is up to more than 24 minutes.

- "average athlete" means two things: One - that the difference will only be evident when comparing quite a large number of results (so the differences are not due to an athlete off form or having an exceptional performance but mainly by the courses being slow or fast) - always tricky to use that to predict one performance of one athlete. Two - it is valid for an athlete that can race Kona as well as Austria. I think this is where more of the difference will come from. Marino - as far as I know one of the bigger guys - is racing better in Austria (cooler climate, maybe also one where his strength on the bike can be more utilized) than in Kona. This is evidenced by Marino's normalized (i.e. course and condition independent) results: In Austria his results were pretty much improving from sub 8:15 down to almost 8:05, in Kona he had some "bad" races with a normalized 8:50 but generally was improving down to an 8:15. On average, I'd say there is at least another 5 minutes difference, so we end up with almost 30 minutes between Marino's Austria time and his Kona time.

I guess we're getting closer :-) However, I have his 2011 Austria race better than 2010 by a normalized 4 minutes - if he went 4 minutes faster in his 2010 Kona, he'd have been one minute ahead of Macca. Now that's playing with numbers and having math predict real life (which is impossible to do!). But I don't think too many people would argue that Marino is among the top picks for Kona.

Thorsten

I'm sure that everyone here knows how much one's performance can vary on the same course, depending on the type of day you're having. Is it possible that he had a good day in Austria, and a bad day in Kona, making up for the variation? They are very different climates and general conditions, so I could see that one course could work in his favor more than another course. Same as anybody else. Some people do well in the heat, and some do well in the cold. Jan Frodeno does not perform well in the cold, for example.

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�He is happy whose circumstances suit his temper but he is more excellent who can suit his temper to any circumstances� David Hume

Thorsten,

I like your course comparison, it takes into account all the factors that affect race time (typical enviromental conditions, course length, elevation profile, drafting, etc.). It is the best method I have seen of comparing performances between different races. That said, I took a look at some GPS files from the most recent editions of a few Ironman distance races on Garmin Connect - see table below. The 'Course Length Adjustment' column is a theoretical time delta due to short or long course lengths based on a benchmark 8hr IM with a 50min swim, 4:25 bike (25.4mph), 2:40 run (6:06/mile) and 5min of transitions.



Craig

If it was just one result, then having a good day or a bad day may be an explanation. But not if it is - like for Marino - a pretty consistent pattern since 2006. Then it's probably that he's racing better in Austria than in Kona.

That's interesting and all, but - for example, LP doesn't have "5 minutes of transitions". T1 alone is 5 minutes - IF you are very fast!
And *nobody* is biking 4:25 there - too hilly. Winning Pro time there in 2010 (faster course than all prior years) was 4:38.

Theoretical things are cool - until they run into reality.

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float , hammer , and jog

Craig,

that's pretty interesting and it may explain where some of the differences I have seen are coming from. (Which is not important for my Triratings system - I don't care why some course is faster, I just try to adjust for it.) However, how many data points is this based on? If I take the advertised accuracy of between 1 and 2% for a GPS, then almost all the results are within the accuracy, so if it is just a few (say <5) datapoints, the data may not be that significant. Regardless, I would think that WTC should come up with some kind of certification system so that this old issue can be finally put to rest.

And one more thing: Frankfurt 2010 is not really valid, as the bike course was long by somewhere between 3k and 5k (sorry, haven't managed the complex math to convert to miles ;-)) because of some building activity. They announced it before the race and everyone knew it before the start.

Thorsten

I agree, but 8hrs seemed like a relevant benchmark given the context of the discussion (world record validity). Using a slower benchmark only increases the magnitude of the adjustments ;)

Craig.

I think that we are saying the same thing. His performance might not be linear relative to the average performance differences. He might be faster than the average difference in Austria and slower than the average difference in Kona.

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�He is happy whose circumstances suit his temper but he is more excellent who can suit his temper to any circumstances� David Hume

Thorsten,

I'm not a stats geek, I'm just a tri geek - I just grabbed the first 50 files on Garmin Connect for each race. There were more than that for all the races but Austria, Frankfurt and Roth. I can send you the spreadsheet if you want to do a proper statistical analysis.

Craig.

Never mind. I didn't finish the whole thread before responding. That's what I get for opening a ST bitch fest that is almost 200 posts long.

It's not so much a conflict with reality so much as it's a conflict with a lack of data. What you need is to fine tune the data and variables, then create a formal gambling venue for people who want to bet on triathletes, THEN make a lot of money and THEN turn triathlon into a legitimate and lucrative sport for all the pros!

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�He is happy whose circumstances suit his temper but he is more excellent who can suit his temper to any circumstances� David Hume

An adequate sample size is 30, as long as the samples are diversified and non-biased. So 50 sounds like enough to make a judgement.

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�He is happy whose circumstances suit his temper but he is more excellent who can suit his temper to any circumstances� David Hume

If you could do this for Ironman Germany -Frankfurt within the next 2.5 weeks then .... I love you man :)

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My marathon PR is "under three, high twos. I had a two hour and fifty-something."

I've done the general analysis for Frankfurt - course rating of 12:19, fast but not crazy fast like Austria or Roth. I'm hoping to get the analysis of the field done this weekend, and my predictions should be up in time on the triratings website.

Hope that's what you're looking for .. if not, just dm me and I'll see what I can do.

Thorsten

Isnt there a really really simple way to get the exact measurement? Cant we just plot the route on a map with a known sclae and measure it? I know its old school but unless the hot summers (we are blessed with here in Europe) and wet winters are making the roads grow we should be able to get a decent measurement. The route isnt measured using a racing line I guess (Is it?). I would have thought that cutting corners (racing line) over 180km could easily net you a good few hundred meters, same on the run. Also, I know that my GPS watch (310xt) does vary the distances by a few hundred meters (from one extreme to the other) over a 10k run even when I run the exact same route almost every day. multiply by 4 and you again can have a good difference.
Was the route advertised not the route that was used? where did it fall short?
I am not saying it wasnt short, I wasnt there, but it would be nice to know what it was so that this whole argument is based on know facts rather than just theories.
I am now turning to the dark side and I think that the IM organisers (and Challenge etc) should just get their courses measured so that they can state exactly what the length is so that this thread isnt repeated after the weekend (Roth) when a new world record could be set.

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......if only there were a way to measure distances....

No, the only measurement is who you beat. If you beat EVERYBODY, the true distance of the course is for the less gifted to argue over......and morons...they need something to argue about as well.

You do realize that you are belittling everyone who has commented on this thread, including yourself, right? Is it necessary to be so confrontational? You know, one of the side effects of over training is irritability. Maybe you need a rest day?

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�He is happy whose circumstances suit his temper but he is more excellent who can suit his temper to any circumstances� David Hume

Of course.

The fact is, most people commenting on this thread couldn't carry the jockstrap of a guy who ran a 7:45.XX. You do realize they, along with you, are attempting to belittle an accomplishment they could never hope to attain, right?

Here's a news flash....get over yourself....or yourselves. And no, I didn't overtrain, I just appreciate a great effort. Ya'll want to argue over a few miles, really?

How about you just give yourselves those miles and see if you can even get close to 7:45. LMAO

No, really, LMAOOOOOOOO

Of course, it's your right to just ignore us morons and sniff jock straps. LMAO!

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�He is happy whose circumstances suit his temper but he is more excellent who can suit his temper to any circumstances� David Hume

On the other hand, I think most everyone on this thread is participating in a type of healthy speculation on how someone could have raced a time that is in some cases a half hour faster than an equally good world class athlete. I don't see anything wrong with that. If it were baseball and someone was making amazing home runs in one field but not another, then people would start to speculate on how that would be possible.

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�He is happy whose circumstances suit his temper but he is more excellent who can suit his temper to any circumstances� David Hume

had me in tears...awesome.

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Chill out girl, You could carry that jockstrap.....in your purse, next to your tampons.....

Maybe the dude just pulled out one of those once in a generation performances? All sports have them, Bolt, Sarah Ulmer, Sergei Bubka, Roger Bannister, and so on and so forth etc.

He wasnt really racing anyone either, so he could smash it out and see what happens. I think in many races, particularly deep ones, pros are racing each other more than the clock. If you are going comfy on the bike and you think you can outrun those in front then its brave to put in the big ones to perhaps post a better time but risk a win if you pop.

Or maybe the course is short. See if anyone else balls up to give it a crack next year.

I really dont care, the dude absolutely smacked the nonsense out of whatever distance he covered. It was AWESOME as

Aucklandbicyclecouriersrepresent

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bikemessengersrepresent

Well, a quick search on Garmin Connect for IM Austria reveals bike distances of: 109.27, 108.79, 108.58, 108.82, 108.89, 108.65, 109.04, 108.77, 109.30, ...and run distances of: 25.10, 25.34, 25.91, 25.52, 25.20, 25.04, ...

A similar search for CdA reveals bike distances of: 109.68, 111.62, 111.68, 111.73, 111.68, 111.94, 111.80, 111.81, ... and run distances of: 26.40, 26.43, 26.65, 26.54, 27.00, 26.38, 26.11, 26.55, 26.48, ...

Given that it's the same technology and that [presumably] the satellites over Europe are no different than those over North America, I'd say that the Austria bike course was short (or at least shorter) by ~3 miles and the run course by ~1 mile. Even at a fast pro pace, that's ~12 minutes.

A super-fast time, but I don't call it a 7:45 Ironman.

Personally, I hate it when courses come up short. It's happened to me twice this year: on my way to PR's (half marathon and 70.3) and the run course has come up ~0.3 miles short. So what do I call my PR? The "official" time on the short course, or the time I would've run for 13.1 miles? Considerring the cost of entry fees, I don't think it's too much to ask to accurately measure the course, especially when it can easily be adjusted by moving a turn-around point.

On the flip side, my Garmin agreed with the CdA marathon course markers to within 0.05 miles all the way through mile 26, but the last "0.2 miles" took 0.4+ miles.



Edit: sorry to duplicate info, didn't see the far-superior previous Garmin analysis...

Here's another news flash...This is slowtwitch, where talk is cheaper than cheap and 90% of what is said has been said 100 times before, is wrong, stupid or just plain worthless.

Johanandbex,
No...we absolutely cannot just plot the course on a map. Cartography is part science and part art; cartographers routinely have to interpolate between data points. As a result, a map, at best, is only a damn good approximation. Therefore, using a map to measure would only give an approximation.

Actually, even as a pedantic RD and course measurer let me say "it depends".

Running courses are measured to certain standards because that's what IAAF and the running community demands.
WTC having nothing to do with IAAF can set their own standards, so long as they get consistency between events and between years.

They could say " IM being what it is, with different transitions blah blah...lets have a tolerance of 500m overall with bike error no greater than 400m and run no greater than 200m"...just an example.

Then you could use either:

MapmyRun, course sight unseen and plot a course to within 200m....ok a bit tedious to do it that way....or
Import GPS file to MapmyRun, fix the obvious outliers and 5min later have accuracy of less than 50m...or
Use Sporttracks/MapmyRun and waste an evening to fix all the points and have accuracy less than 20m

Moral of story...it isn't too hard to have something that resembles 3.8/180/42.2 right around the world.