Jens' FIST and Low Diver positions comparison: UPDATED

May 24, 07 13:03

Post #1 of 44 Views: 10501

I got to do my first real test of the FIST position today.

The course: Canada road in Woodside CA - 1/4mile north of Jefferson to Hwy 92 & back. 10.13 miles with ~1000 feet of climbing.

Best recent "Low Diver" trial (5/8/07): 22:31 (26.99 mph) with 287 watts; pseudo-CdA:* .236

FIST trial (5/24/07): 22:29 (27.03mph) with 295 watts; pseudo-CdA* .245

*Pseudo-CdA takes air-density into account, but is calculated as if the course were flat. The true CdA for the Low Diver position in flat, windless conditions is ~.03 to .04 lower.

NOTES & QUALIFICATIONS: I suspect my power was significantly off today as I just got over a rather nasty case of bronchitis. I also blew my AWC on an earlier trial that I aborted when I dropped the chain. I would expect to gain another 5-10 watts in better circumstances.

There was a slight wind in both trials, which could easily bias the comparison. However, my experience with this course has been that the wind balances out unless it's real heavy.

What remains to be determined is how much of the power gain is due to raising the seat and how much to the slightly higher and much less extended aero-bar setup. I will hopefully find that out this weekend in side-by-side trials in real race conditions. I will also be doing more formal (0 wind) field testing trials to determine the actual cdA of each position.

This initial result is a little suprising. I was expecting both power and drag to increase more than they did.

-- jens

Last edited by: jens: May 26, 07 11:01

Re: Jens' FIST and Low Diver positions: first comparison [jens] [ In reply to ]

May 24, 07 13:22

Post #2 of 44 Views: 10429

This is very interesting and I for one will be checking back regularly for your updates. Thanks!

Re: Jens' FIST and Low Diver positions: first comparison [jens] [ In reply to ]

May 24, 07 14:10

Post #3 of 44 Views: 10288

Jens, I was just racing a Trade Team rider in an 18km TT who was decked with P3, disk wheel, 404 front, and an SRM. It was a rolly course, but by no means hilly. He weighed about 15lbs more than me, so maybe 160. He showed me his SRM after and it said he averaged 369watts with an average of around 44km/hr..or 27.3mph.

Based on your watts and your speed, does this mean the dude's CDA totally sucks? Or is his SRM wonky?

Trev

Trev Williams
http://www.thedoctrine.ca

Re: Jens' FIST and Low Diver positions: first comparison [tri-poser] [ In reply to ]

May 24, 07 14:19

Post #4 of 44 Views: 10255

Hey Trev:

Likely his position is the culprit. Sounds like he's catching lots of wind.

Ric

Re: Jens' FIST and Low Diver positions: first comparison [tri-poser] [ In reply to ]

May 24, 07 14:21

Post #5 of 44 Views: 10246

In Reply To:

Jens, I was just racing a Trade Team rider in an 18km TT who was decked with P3, disk wheel, 404 front, and an SRM. It was a rolly course, but by no means hilly. He weighed about 15lbs more than me, so maybe 160. He showed me his SRM after and it said he averaged 369watts with an average of around 44km/hr..or 27.3mph.

Based on your watts and your speed, does this mean the dude's CDA totally sucks? Or is his SRM wonky?

Trev

There are a lot of people running around with poorly calibrated SRMs. Even a correctly calibrated SRM will give 10 watts or so higher numbers than mine, because I use a powertap or an SRM-calibrated to match it. Moreover, plenty of average sized-people (e.g. Gordo) have CdAs around ~.30. That means they have to generate and extra 90 watts to go the same speed as me.

OR..... it could be that the guy has Tufos.

-- jens

Re: Jens' FIST and Low Diver positions: first comparison [tri-poser] [ In reply to ]

May 24, 07 14:25

Post #6 of 44 Views: 10217

Sounds wonky to me. If it was geneuine you'd expect him to be doing 31mph on the flat with that kind of power output. It's a national class output (depending on his size).

Re: Jens' FIST and Low Diver positions: first comparison [jens] [ In reply to ]

May 24, 07 14:26

Post #7 of 44 Views: 10210

This sounds very very promising. So without adaption you're already marginally better off ?

Re: Jens' FIST and Low Diver positions: first comparison [jens] [ In reply to ]

May 24, 07 14:33

Post #8 of 44 Views: 10185

Jens,
Was this "FIST" position the one you ended up with at Dan's (as shown in the photos), or was it with your saddle height corrected and your arms a bit more extended (as you had mentioned trying)? How does this compare (if you know) "Psuedo-CdA"-wise to the position you came out of LSWT awhile back?

Huh?...You dropped your chain? What was that you were saying on Saturday about not running a front derailluer?? I think you may have jinxed yourself. ;-)

http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

Re: Jens' FIST and Low Diver positions: first comparison [jens] [ In reply to ]

May 24, 07 15:19

Post #9 of 44 Views: 10106

Moreover, plenty of average sized-people (e.g. Gordo) have CdAs around ~.30. That means they have to generate and extra 90 watts to go the same speed as me.

Holy cow!!! Is this accurate? I mean, to the average person I think they would look at Gordo's position and say "Hey, that guy looks good on the bike." And then look at you and guy "Hey, that guy looks good on the bike too, probably even better than the first guy." So the difference between those two is 90 watts?

Can you quantify that into time over a 40k for me?

Portside Athletics Blog

Last edited by: SwBkRn44: May 24, 07 15:19

Re: Jens' FIST and Low Diver positions: first comparison [Tom A.] [ In reply to ]

May 24, 07 19:19

Post #10 of 44 Views: 9953

In Reply To:

Jens,
Was this "FIST" position the one you ended up with at Dan's (as shown in the photos), or was it with your saddle height corrected and your arms a bit more extended (as you had mentioned trying)? How does this compare (if you know) "Psuedo-CdA"-wise to the position you came out of LSWT awhile back?

Huh?...You dropped your chain? What was that you were saying on Saturday about not running a front derailluer?? I think you may have jinxed yourself. ;-)

The FIST position was exactly as set up by Dan. On Saturday, I'll do the Diver position with the raised seat and then the FIST position. The FIST position is slightly faster than the tunnel position - no surprise because it has more drop. My guess is the Diver position with the higher seat will actually be faster than the old diver position (I have a theory about this).

Looks like I need to get a chainwatcher....

--jens

Re: Jens' FIST and Low Diver positions: first comparison [SwBkRn44] [ In reply to ]

May 24, 07 19:43

Post #11 of 44 Views: 9910

In Reply To:

Holy cow!!! Is this accurate? I mean, to the average person I think they would look at Gordo's position and say "Hey, that guy looks good on the bike." And then look at you and guy "Hey, that guy looks good on the bike too, probably even better than the first guy." So the difference between those two is 90 watts?

It was something like .29 or .30. gregclimbs remembers the actual numbers.

Quote:

Can you quantify that into time over a 40k for me?

Just this time. Next time, you do the math. With a .30 CdA and 280 watts you can do 40K in 60min. With my diver position and 280 watts you can do it in 53min.

Re: Jens' FIST and Low Diver positions: first comparison [UK Gear Muncher] [ In reply to ]

May 24, 07 21:34

Post #12 of 44 Views: 9766

In Reply To:

This sounds very very promising. So without adaption you're already marginally better off ?

Maybe. I don't know how much of the power gain is just from raising the seat yet. I have a suspicion that the diver position with the raised seat will have both higher power and lower drag than it did with before, with the lower seat. We'll see. I also don't expect to see any incremental power gains from adaptation.

-jens

Re: Jens' FIST and Low Diver positions: first comparison [jens] [ In reply to ]

May 24, 07 23:11

Post #13 of 44 Views: 9704

In Reply To:

It was something like .29 or .30. gregclimbs remembers the actual numbers.

gordo's best run in the tunnel that he published was .296

based on today's piss poor TT effort I did - I have lowered mine from .3445 @ the start of the season down to mid two's today.

g

greg
www.wattagetraining.com

Re: Jens' FIST and Low Diver positions: first comparison [jens] [ In reply to ]

May 25, 07 1:01

Post #14 of 44 Views: 9654

Keep us posted. This is one of the best threads I have read for a while.

Bryce.

Re: Jens' FIST and Low Diver positions: first comparison [gregclimbs] [ In reply to ]

May 25, 07 5:44

Post #15 of 44 Views: 9516

Do you have any pictures of before and after pictures on how you were able to decrease your CDA by .1 or so. If not could you explain how you went about changing your position. Finally how did this affect your watts and or tt time.

Thanks in advance,

Mike

http://www.MikeCaiazzo.com
http://www.USProTri.com

Re: Jens' FIST and Low Diver positions: first comparison [jens] [ In reply to ]

FindinFreestyle

May 25, 07 7:21

Post #16 of 44 Views: 9412

Now enough of this useful info, get on over to the peanut butter and jelly thread...oh wait it's now regressed into a lamb sauce thread. I think Julian is trying to rival the Sergio thread with her entire family recipe book. *sarcasm off*

Seriously, thanks for the post , this is why I continue to visit this site, sometimes too much swampland must be waded through to find the clear rivers of useful information. Or I got up on the wrong side of the bed.

Re: Jens' FIST and Low Diver positions: first comparison [jens] [ In reply to ]

May 25, 07 7:28

Post #17 of 44 Views: 9384

COOOL!! There is a Canada Rd in the US!! :)

Re: Jens' FIST and Low Diver positions: first comparison [Markus Mucus] [ In reply to ]

May 25, 07 8:07

Post #18 of 44 Views: 9326

Technically is Ca�ada Rd, pronounced CanYahda.

Re: Jens' FIST and Low Diver positions: first comparison [JohnA] [ In reply to ]

May 25, 07 8:11

Post #19 of 44 Views: 9316

That's not nearly as cool

Re: Jens' FIST and Low Diver positions: first comparison [jens] [ In reply to ]

May 25, 07 11:43

Post #20 of 44 Views: 9197

reactions:

i don't think you should assume that raising the saddle 2.5cm is going to give you the same benefit on the low-diver as it did, or may, on the compatto. my reasoning is as follows:

at the higher saddle height on the compatto, that saddle height was part of an overall position that got you to a hip angle producing (what i think is) your best efficiency over a threshold-ish distance. if you simply raise your saddle on the low-diver position, you'll take an already acute 97� and make it -- what? -- 95�? in so doing i think the extra leverage you get by raising the saddle may be overcome or canceled by squeezing your hip.

let's say you raise your saddle on low-diver and you combine that with raising the armrests the same amount. in this case, you arguably open your hip angle a slightly bit, maybe from 97� to 98� or so. this will give you a bit of power, but you're also hoisting your body 2.5cm higher in the air overall, and i don't know what that does to your drag.

the point is, i'm not sure whether you're going to get all the benefits out of raising low-diver's seat height that you enjoy by having the proper seat height integrated into the jens-compatto position from the start.

i'm very interested in seeing the results. is there a sub-22min position out there? ;-)

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

Re: Jens' FIST and Low Diver positions: first comparison [Slowman] [ In reply to ]

May 25, 07 12:42

Post #21 of 44 Views: 9119

Hi Dan,

You may well be right about the power side of the equation. I was also thinking about the drag side. As you astutely noticed, in the old low-seat position I was pedalling in a crabbed fashion with the left knee flaring out. This is really bad for drag.

I think the knee flaring has gone away with the higher seat, which might explain why the 'compatto' position is more aero than I expected. I'm pretty sure this improvement will also obtain for the low-diver position. Indeed, I saw a hint of this on my easy ride today, where my power/speed numbers were better than ever.

It all underscores the benefit of having a qualified fitter really look at your position as you pedal, rather than relying on static poses.

-jens

Last edited by: jens: May 25, 07 12:42

Re: Jens' FIST and Low Diver positions: first comparison [gregclimbs] [ In reply to ]

May 25, 07 13:07

Post #22 of 44 Views: 9073

Would you happen to have pics of your .3445 and you mid 2's position? Trying to get an idea of where mine may lie and what I may be able to do to improve it (ritchey adjustable and narrow the pads is about all that's left).

36 kona qualifiers 2006-'23 - 3 Kona Podiums - 4 OA IM AG wins - 5 IM AG wins - 18 70.3 AG wins
I ka nana no a 'ike -- by observing, one learns | Kulia i ka nu'u -- strive for excellence
Garmin Glycogen Use App | Garmin Fat Use App

Re: Jens' FIST and Low Diver positions: first comparison [jens] [ In reply to ]

May 25, 07 14:34

Post #23 of 44 Views: 8987

I will get a good view of your position as you blow by me tomorrow morning. I start 1 min ahead of you but am not in the same league. Be sure to say howdy. Good luck with your experiment.
Forrest

Re: Jens' FIST and Low Diver positions: first comparison [jens] [ In reply to ]

May 25, 07 17:03

Post #24 of 44 Views: 8876

hey some of us non-qualified folks suggested raising your saddle didn't we? ;)

Sounding good though ...

Re: Jens' FIST and Low Diver positions: first comparison [jens] [ In reply to ]

May 25, 07 18:24

Post #25 of 44 Views: 8785

Are you sure about the ~1000 feet of climbing? The event website said about ~400 feet of climbing - http://www.scaledup.com/...ock/locationCan.html, but who knows how it was measured.

Re: Jens' FIST and Low Diver positions: first comparison [SWoo] [ In reply to ]

May 25, 07 18:32

Post #26 of 44 Views: 4902

In Reply To:

Are you sure about the ~1000 feet of climbing? The event website said about ~400 feet of climbing - http://www.scaledup.com/...ock/locationCan.html, but who knows how it was measured.

Yeah, I saw that too. I'm going by Delorme Topo, which gives me 392 feet on the outbound leg and the remainder on the return leg.

EDIT: Looking at the course again today, there's no way it's a 1000 feet. Delorme must be ignoring the road grading or something. 400 feet sounds more reasonable.

- jens

Last edited by: jens: May 26, 07 10:34

Re: Jens' FIST and Low Diver positions: first & 2nd comparison Update [jens] [ In reply to ]

May 26, 07 11:00

Post #27 of 44 Views: 4744

So here's the latest update from today's TT race. I'm not sure about official times, but here's what my powertap said (with a few dropouts):

Low Diver position with higher seat (5/26/07): 22:33 (26.95mph) with 287 watts; pseudo-CdA:* .232
FIST "compatto" (5/26/07): 22:50 (26.61mph) with 286 watts; pseudo-CdA:* .24

Notes and Comments: the times today were a little slower (despite the lower CdAs) because of considerably higher air density (20 degree lower temperatures).

It looks like the FIST position needs ~10 additional watts to beat the diver position.

The two runs on 5/26 were done about 20 minutes apart. I spent most of that time wrestling with the stem swap and the @$%@$%!! expansion plug. Under these conditions, I estimate I would lose about 15-20 watts on the 2nd run (with the same setup). So it's quite remarkable to have nearly matched the 1st run.

Bottom line: if I had used the FIST position for the first run today, I would probably have been 8-16 seconds faster than I was with the diver position, i.e. the time would have been between 22:17 and 22:25

-jens

Last edited by: jens: May 26, 07 11:08

Re: Jens' FIST and Low Diver positions: first & 2nd comparison Update [jens] [ In reply to ]

May 26, 07 12:04

Post #28 of 44 Views: 4690

so you think you might have had closer to 300W with the new position if it had been the first run?

_________________
Dick

Take everything I say with a grain of salt. I know nothing.

Re: Jens' FIST and Low Diver positions comparison: UPDATED [jens] [ In reply to ]

May 26, 07 12:05

Post #29 of 44 Views: 4690

So, try those SMPs again with the position. ;-)

_________________
Dick

Take everything I say with a grain of salt. I know nothing.

Re: Jens' FIST and Low Diver positions: first & 2nd comparison Update [docfuel] [ In reply to ]

May 26, 07 12:49

Post #30 of 44 Views: 4668

In Reply To:

so you think you might have had closer to 300W with the new position if it had been the first run?

Probably more like 305 -- so about 15 seconds faster. Which is great. That might translate to 40 seconds over 40k. But I need more like 2 minutes.

305 is still 20-25 watts short of my road power. If I can get close to that, I'll be good. So next, it's another shot at the circus cranks. If that doesn't work, I'll try "drop pedals" (like SMPs, but without the q-factor increase).

-- jens

Re: Jens' FIST and Low Diver positions: first & 2nd comparison Update [jens] [ In reply to ]

May 26, 07 13:33

Post #31 of 44 Views: 4624

"Probably more like 305 -- so about 15 seconds faster. Which is great. That might translate to 40 seconds over 40k. But I need more like 2 minutes."

EAt beans beforehand. Use old skin suits with a worn out taint.

_________________
Dick

Take everything I say with a grain of salt. I know nothing.

Re: Jens' FIST and Low Diver positions: first & 2nd comparison Update [jens] [ In reply to ]

May 26, 07 13:50

Post #32 of 44 Views: 4609

so you're 1:20 short? i'm going to think about how to (legally) get you another :40, which would leave you with getting the other :40 on our own devices.

coupla things: it's good that compatto is at least as good as low-diver, because you had no prayer of running low-diver at worlds, since you were between 85cm and 90cm of BB to bar-end with low-diver, true? and even if this were not an issue (if you decided not to go to worlds, let us say) aren't you still riding low-diver on borrowed time? doesn't low-diver take a dive even at every U.S. race next year and thereafter? (unless i misunderstand the rules and their phase-in calendar).

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

Re: Jens' FIST and Low Diver positions: first & 2nd comparison Update [jens] [ In reply to ]

May 26, 07 13:55

Post #33 of 44 Views: 4598

Jens, I take it you are preparing for districts in 15 days :) I will be out at Dunlap and districts, say hi if you see me. (green CSUS team kit on a P2K).

Reverend Dr. Jay
Lake of the Pines Triathlon fastest bike course record holder - Golden State Super Sprint fastest tri course record holder - Wildflower Long Course slowest run course record holder (4:46:32)

"If you have a body, you are an athlete." -Bill Bowerman

Re: Jens' FIST and Low Diver positions: first & 2nd comparison Update [jens] [ In reply to ]

May 26, 07 18:05

Post #34 of 44 Views: 4523

In Reply To:

In Reply To:

so you think you might have had closer to 300W with the new position if it had been the first run?

Probably more like 305 -- so about 15 seconds faster. Which is great. That might translate to 40 seconds over 40k. But I need more like 2 minutes.

305 is still 20-25 watts short of my road power. If I can get close to that, I'll be good. So next, it's another shot at the circus cranks. If that doesn't work, I'll try "drop pedals" (like SMPs, but without the q-factor increase).

-- jens

That's VERY interesting stuff there Jens. BTW, when you say that your "road power" is 325-330W, what position is that in? Is it in the drops, on the hoods, or on the bars? Is it climbing seated, or climbing with standing included, or is it on the flat?

I'm just trying to nail down your "supply side" of the equation...I'm not so sure you need to resort to the "circus cranks" or "drop pedals" quite yet ;-)

Tom

http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

Re: Jens' FIST and Low Diver positions: first comparison [Slowman] [ In reply to ]

May 26, 07 18:15

Post #35 of 44 Views: 4521

In Reply To:

reactions:

i don't think you should assume that raising the saddle 2.5cm is going to give you the same benefit on the low-diver as it did, or may, on the compatto. my reasoning is as follows:

at the higher saddle height on the compatto, that saddle height was part of an overall position that got you to a hip angle producing (what i think is) your best efficiency over a threshold-ish distance. if you simply raise your saddle on the low-diver position, you'll take an already acute 97� and make it -- what? -- 95�? in so doing i think the extra leverage you get by raising the saddle may be overcome or canceled by squeezing your hip.

Well...actually, Dan (and this is what I was trying to explain on the original Jens FIST thread), when he raises his seat to the PROPER HEIGHT with the "diver" position, THAT'S when he'd have an angle of 97 deg. With the low seat, his "true" angle (based on how close his leg came up to his torso) was actually more equivalent to 95 degrees, or so. The reason being is that you use a "proxy" for the angle and ASSUME that the seat height is correct...if it's not, and low, the "true" angle will actually be tighter since for a given torso orientation his leg will be coming closer at the top of the stroke.

So, by raising the seat 2.5cm and also the bars, he then get's into a TRUE 97 deg position, which should see an improvement since that's better than something less, like ~95 deg. or so.

But, if your theory is correct (which, with my own "farting around" on my TT position, looks to be working for me as well ) it won't be as good as the compatto's 100 deg from a power production standpoint...and it looks like Jens' experience today matches that. :-)

http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

Re: Jens' FIST and Low Diver positions: first & 2nd comparison Update [Tom A.] [ In reply to ]

May 26, 07 20:57

Post #36 of 44 Views: 4453

In Reply To:

That's VERY interesting stuff there Jens. BTW, when you say that your "road power" is 325-330W, what position is that in? Is it in the drops, on the hoods, or on the bars? Is it climbing seated, or climbing with standing included, or is it on the flat?

I'm just trying to nail down your "supply side" of the equation...I'm not so sure you need to resort to the "circus cranks" or "drop pedals" quite yet ;-)

Tom

That's 325-330 on the hoods -- seated, climbing or flat. That's for 22-23 minutes, though. Not FTP.

-jens

Re: Jens' FIST and Low Diver positions: first & 2nd comparison Update [Slowman] [ In reply to ]

May 26, 07 21:06

Post #37 of 44 Views: 4442

In Reply To:

so you're 1:20 short? i'm going to think about how to (legally) get you another :40, which would leave you with getting the other :40 on our own coupla things: it's good that compatto is at least as good as low-diver, because you had no prayer of running low-diver at worlds, since you were between 85cm and 90cm of BB to bar-end with low-diver, true? and even if this were not an issue (if you decided not to go to worlds, let us say) aren't you still riding low-diver on borrowed time? doesn't low-diver take a dive even at every U.S. race next year and thereafter? (unless i misunderstand the rules and their phase-in calendar).

The UCI rules will only apply to Nationals and NRC races:

1J1(e) As of 2008, UCI legal bikes will be required in all national championships for ages 17 and above and for all NRC events.

So really only 2 or 3 races for me. My plan for these was to do something like a combination of the Flandis and the Obree position.

The low diver position is 90+ cm out -- so far it wouldn't even be legal for the bike in front of me. ;-)

- jens

Re: Jens' FIST and Low Diver positions: first & 2nd comparison Update [jens] [ In reply to ]

May 26, 07 21:22

Post #38 of 44 Views: 4426

In Reply To:

In Reply To:

That's VERY interesting stuff there Jens. BTW, when you say that your "road power" is 325-330W, what position is that in? Is it in the drops, on the hoods, or on the bars? Is it climbing seated, or climbing with standing included, or is it on the flat?

I'm just trying to nail down your "supply side" of the equation...I'm not so sure you need to resort to the "circus cranks" or "drop pedals" quite yet ;-)

Tom

That's 325-330 on the hoods -- seated, climbing or flat. That's for 22-23 minutes, though. Not FTP.

-jens

Excellent. Have you ever taken a video or picture from the side in THAT position? What's your torso angle (Slowman-style) for that?

http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

Re: Jens' FIST and Low Diver positions: first & 2nd comparison Update [jens] [ In reply to ]

May 27, 07 12:43

Post #39 of 44 Views: 4255

In Reply To:

The two runs on 5/26 were done about 20 minutes apart. I estimate I would lose about 15-20 watts on the 2nd run (with the same setup).

You need to train more.

Re: Jens' FIST and Low Diver positions: first & 2nd comparison Update [Andrew Coggan] [ In reply to ]

May 27, 07 14:04

Post #40 of 44 Views: 4175

In Reply To:

In Reply To:

The two runs on 5/26 were done about 20 minutes apart. I estimate I would lose about 15-20 watts on the 2nd run (with the same setup).

You need to train more.

Maybe he has more AWC than you... ;-)

http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

Re: Jens' FIST and Low Diver positions: first & 2nd comparison Update [Tom A.] [ In reply to ]

May 27, 07 14:10

Post #41 of 44 Views: 4160

In Reply To:

In Reply To:

In Reply To:

The two runs on 5/26 were done about 20 minutes apart. I estimate I would lose about 15-20 watts on the 2nd run (with the same setup).

You need to train more.

Maybe he has more AWC than you... ;-)

Even if he does, 20 min of recovery ought to be enough to restore whatever fraction of it that he utilized during his first TT.

Re: Jens' FIST and Low Diver positions: first & 2nd comparison Update [Andrew Coggan] [ In reply to ]

May 27, 07 15:41

Post #42 of 44 Views: 4089

In Reply To:

In Reply To:

You need to train more.

Undoubtedly true. Or have fewer kids and colds. What would you expect the drop to be for a well-trained individual?

-jens

Re: Jens' FIST and Low Diver positions: first & 2nd comparison Update [jens] [ In reply to ]

May 29, 07 8:05

Post #43 of 44 Views: 3837

In Reply To:

In Reply To:

In Reply To:

You need to train more.

Undoubtedly true. Or have fewer kids and colds. What would you expect the drop to be for a well-trained individual?

-jens

On average? Probably about half of what you experience.

(As for why it matters, consider this: if your power during your first 20-25 min TT is X, and during the second it is X-15, then you can't reasonably expect to maintain more than (X+X-15)/2 for 40-50 min. Or to put it another way: even if raising X allows you to be ahead of Turbo at the turn-around, you're not going to beat him if you fade that much during the 2nd half.)

Re: Jens' FIST and Low Diver positions: first & 2nd comparison Update [Andrew Coggan] [ In reply to ]

May 29, 07 9:34

Post #44 of 44 Views: 3738

In Reply To:

In Reply To:

In Reply To:

On average? Probably about half of what you experience.

(As for why it matters, consider this: if your power during your first 20-25 min TT is X, and during the second it is X-15, then you can't reasonably expect to maintain more than (X+X-15)/2 for 40-50 min. Or to put it another way: even if raising X allows you to be ahead of Turbo at the turn-around, you're not going to beat him if you fade that much during the 2nd half.)

No surprise, since I tend to place much worse in races longer than 25 minutes. While, the World's TT is only a 25-minute race, Natz looks to 40-50 minutes. So train more. Maybe I should hire Paulo. ;-)

-- jens

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