MIM run is also short.

they changed it like two years ago its not anymore. The bike is way short.


Grant

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Grant
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Just out of curiosity, what is your FTP? Were your swims similarly paced and/or what were the times? As much as I love the power data, it isn't like you just start exerting yourself once you exit the water.

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Jason
Dig It Triathlon and Multisport
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270ish. Beginning of may i did a 7.45mile TT in just under 17 mins at 286 so it should be right around there.

St anthonys the swim was 25:30 i think and MIM was 23:23. I changed up my stroke a little bit between the two so that i pulled harder but not as often to keep my HR down and to keep my form a little bit better.

Either way even with the hamstring cramp i had at MIM, i felt a lot better coming out of the water then ST. A. When i got off the bike in ST.A i felt fine but i just wasn't going anywhere.

Grant

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Grant
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My Allen/Coggan book says your riding too pokey as you should be at 95-100% at Olympic distance....

From the info you've given, I'd guess your FTP to be below 270. I'll grant that I'm conservative on FTPs but I would still likely place yours in the neighborhood of 260, maybe even a bit below. That would place the IFs for these two rides a few percentage points apart, which can make a lot of difference. How much that matters in the end, I don't feel like I have enough info to say, but my unsolicited advice would be to ride my next Olympic at the lower IF to see if the run is as successful as MIM.

Jason

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Jason
Dig It Triathlon and Multisport
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I did 258 at collegiate nationals but it was on a lot hillier course. I ran 6:47's at that race it was a bit easier of a run then MIM. I do think i went conservative from the standpoint of MIM because of cramping up after the swim.

Grant

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Grant
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I would seek answers to additional questions. You might have left something on the bike if you threshold watts are really 270ish. Maybe they are less. Maybe FTP is 270 but you rode smart and legally behind others. Even if 270 is correct, plugging in a percentage and assuming you rode light may not be accurate. It assumes you were not carrying significant fatigue, that you were properly fueled and well hydrated, that you paced the first half well, etc. How did watts compliment PE and HR? Power distribution? Did you show fading watts and efforts over the second half? Were there increasing watts and efforts? Probably a few other variables as well.

KP

Isn't FTP 20 min - 5 percent give or take? I don't think i'd drop off 10 watts from 17-20 mins on avg to put my FTP down to 260. But i also rode that time trial very hard. My avg hr was 202.

PE for the MIM and Collegiate nationals was about the same, i relaxed a lot on the hills at collegiate nationals because my legs didn't feel ready to climb hard. St. Anthonys felt like i was hammering as soon as i warmed up from the swim.

St.A first half was 233 second half was 229
MIM first half was 225 second half was 225
Collegiate nationals First half was 263 second half was 253


Grant

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Grant
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While I generally agree with the guidelines of the Allen/Coggan table for half and full IMs, the Olympic figures always struck me as a bit optimistic. As FTP is how much you can do in an hour, I don't see how you can do FTP in an Olympic after a real 1500m swim and still run a decent 10K. Even if you drop to 95%, that's still a lot of work on the bike after a moderate to hard swim with a 10K still to run.

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Jason
Dig It Triathlon and Multisport
http://www.digittri.com

Hi Grant. In my opinion, 20min is a bit short. I prefer 30min. As well, I don't know if this applies, but many triathletes can generate higher sustained power sitting up and climbing than they can on flats while down and aero. Often, significantly more. For that reason, I ask athletes to test on flats and in aero position. You are closest to the situation and would know best; I am just raising questions that might be entertained by you. Good luck!

I agree -- for all but the most fit -- I suggest slightly less than 95% to give yourself the best chance to run to potential.

You might say optimistic, I'll say it's not realistic. But, that's why it's a guideline.

Meaning, it's a race and there are too many factors involved "up the road" to gauge your pace: race traffic, other racer's positioning, corners, etc. It would take a lot of good luck to get within this zone.

I ended up riding 60 watts below 100% simply due to above scenarios. Oh well.

Keep up the good work queer boy. I put out 231 watts when I roll over in my bed.

Oh you're cool...

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Grant
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60 below??? Sheesh - that's my IM pace. There'd have to be a lot going on up the road to slow me down that much. You must have FTP welll into 300's???

My #'s were very similar to Grant's. NP 224 with bike time 59:57. This does seem to be a tough course to really ride on the rivet wattage wise due to the factors you mentioned. I generally ride other similar length courses 10-15 W higher, but they're shorter swims.

I do seem to notice a consistent drop in power by about 10-15W when I look at my race files and compare last third of bike to first third. Not sure what that means.

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Coach at KonaCoach Multisport

MIM run is also short.

How long is it then?

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Coach at KonaCoach Multisport

Are those your AP numbers or your NP numbers? If they're your AP numbers then you just did SA above an IF of .86 (assuming your FTP is correct). What was your bike time too or just throw me your TSS numbers for both rides.

Thanks, Chris

I don't buy that it is short anymore, at least not the last 2 years. Times of people I know (including myself) that have raced there don't reflect a short run and I've heard the turnaround was extended up the hill from where it used to be.

FWIW, Macca ran a 35:XX there this year. He better hope it isn't short!

Also, as a data point, Greg Rouault, who was the first AGer at both MIM and St. Anthony's this year had same run split to the second on both courses. 32:15!

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Justin in Austin, get it? :)

Cool races:
- Redman
- Desoto American Triple T

AP

NP wand TSS were...

Collegiate nationals - 267, and .971 for tss
SA was - 235 and .856
MIM was - 237 and .863

Collegiate nationals was hilly, the other two were very close to flat courses.

Grant

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Those aren't the TSS's. TSS should be something like 127, not .856. The .856 is your IF.

oh then they were, 97.6, 73.9 and 71.6, respectively.


Grant

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Grant
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that's still a lot of work on the bike after a moderate to hard swim with a 10K still to run.

Excellent point. As people often do here and elsewhere, they are putting the individual sports in silos and not realizing the one impacts the other both in training and on race day. It's how you put the swim-bike-run together on race day and where the clock stops when you cross the finish line that matters.

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Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

Yeah, something doesn't add up. Collegiate Nationals is about what I'd expect for an IF in an Oly. SA and MIM are around what I'd expect to see for a HIM (depending on bike time). Btw, those were IFs you gave me, not TSSes, but it's actually not important.

Out of curiosity, you do a lot training in the hills and not much on the flats? I'm going to speculate that your VI was highest at Collegiate Nationals, given that it was "hilly," so note the higher your VI the higher your IF. Just seems like you have a harder time getting your power up to sustainable levels on flat courses. MIM seems to be more hilly than SA if I was to base it on your VI.

Thanks, Chris

Yeah most of it is hills similar to the course in tuscaloosa. We have a lot of rolling hills in iowa not much thats actually flat where i bike.

Basically what i am getting from this is... I should be biking around where i was at for Nationals. I think i was smoked at SA. since nationals was the week before and i also did two other races at the beginning of april. Which would explain why i felt MIM bike was very easy for me even with a cramped up hamstring and that was because i was rested more then S.A.

Does that sound pretty good?


Grant

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As I mentioned before -- you should test FTP on flats and while aero. That's where most of your tri-racing will be done.

If you are going to race with certain known metrics and want them to be reliable -- you need to freshen occassionally :-)

KP

FTP was tested on a mostly flat course, on May 10th so it was very recent. At least that was when my TT was. it wasn't an actually FTP test but it should be pretty close.



Grant

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Looks like you are close and on the right track. I would freshen up and re-test and/or race. You were probably just a bit tired.

KP

I'm just happy that 24ish is my easy pace now when i am rested the fastest i did last year was 23.5 at lifetime fitness and i was hammering like crazy that day.


Grant

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That's what I was thinking -- you are one fit dude.

Haha thanks its getting there. Its definitly a completely different beast then hockey is.


Grant

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Jason,

I think you might be surprised. I see lots of people do between 95 - 100% of FTP on the Oly bike and still run very well. I'm one of them...

Thanks, Chris

And not only should you test in the manner described but most of your race-specific training should be done in the position and riding style (eg low VI) you plan on executing in your race. I'm not saying this is the case with you as I would obviously have no idea. However, I do see lots of people testing and training in positions in which they yield the highest power but it's not the position they use when racing. This is just one specific area where I believe triathlon and cycling are very different which makes some of AC's Seven Deadly Sins not so useful to guys like us, imho.

Thanks, Chris