Wow, that is interesting! I think Macca is a smart racer (playing within the rules), but not a "cheater".

Also, what about the Sergio (all kidding aside)? He now has a couple of IM runs splits that are pretty damn impressive - better than Rutger! He may just be the best IM marathoner out there.

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Fatigue is biochemical, not biomechanical.
- Andrew Coggan, PhD

How could those accusations be true? The media is hovering over those guys during the whole race.

I saw a few posts yesterday about drafting camera vehicles, support and on...cameras are not marshals.




No doubt Macca wil hear about this...lets wait to see what he has to say....

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What if the Hokey Pokey is what it is all about?

Well, (if) you did see the coverage, when the chasers were going up to Hawii (at the time Stadler was coming back down), things were pretty "tight". I bet that is what Stadler was refering to.

And that special needs pickup was like the feed-zone at the TDF. And there is no second guessing why Cam Brown didn't stop to get his bag....

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Ego numquam pronuncio mendacium,
sed sum homo salvaticus

I would also add the the argument that Clas Bjorling is one of the best runners in Ironman as well posting runs such as a 2:42 run at IM NZ and and a 2:45 at Quelle this year and a 2:52 at IM UK.

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Jason Goldberg
FIT Multisports

Well, Normann sure gave Macca a big ol hug at the finish... Was that a congratulations-on-cheating-your-way-to-second hug? That's just weird.

I was thinking the exact same thing...maybe they got him all liquor'd up before the interview...

Emilio, buddy. Come on...didnt you see the post earlier? You are supposed to be right down the center politically correct and love any all no matter what their actions. I will do you a favor and NOT find the link.

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What if the Hokey Pokey is what it is all about?

Not refering to them as marshalls, but they undoubtedly have video proof of "cheating" allegations. No?

And? The race was yesterday and the results are final.

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What if the Hokey Pokey is what it is all about?

I had THAT thought too! We must be sharing a brain...

When this all washs out it will be said that the interview, when translated did not capture his true intention. Yeah right.

You're right. It's just a triathlon. Who gives a crap?

OK...now that is just weird ;-)

post deleted in response....

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Ego numquam pronuncio mendacium,
sed sum homo salvaticus

His victory talk was disappointing... especially when he corrected the announcer (Mike Reilly?), who said "Ironman world champion," with "two time world champion" and then bragging about its significance seconds after crossing the finish line. Those things are best left for others to say. If I'm not mistaken, Welch had a weird look on his face as he was walking away.

His words were in stark contrast to those of several of the other top finishers, especially Desiree Ficker. I didn't know anything about her before the race (other than the pictures that people have been posting), but I was really impressed by her instantly thanking all the people who had helped her get there. I'll definitely be cheering for her in the future.

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there was no one chasing us... distance is its own reward.

You know, the funny thing is that now he says Macca was cheating and when my wife and I were watching the race when Macca finished we saw Norman go up to Macca and hug him. Why did'nt he call him a cheater right there? Why say it later? Well also, you know when I watched the race last year I saw Norman get a couple of flats and quit and start crying on the side of the road. This is the defending champion? Why did'nt he just get some other wheels or another bike or whatever and finish? Natascha Badmann was vomiting on the course and not having a typical Natascha day and she finished. I am not taking anything away from Normans performance, but I am disappointed with what he said.

Cultural differences, I guess.... maybe he thought that it was all about putting on a good show?

(Wonder where he got that from?)

But I agree, there are a lot of athletes whose IQ drops by 50+ points alone when they approach anaerobic threshhold (AT).

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Ego numquam pronuncio mendacium,
sed sum homo salvaticus

Yes, Macca did look exhausted at the end of the race, but that's what pretty much happens when you run your guts out and run faster than everybody else in the race and about 9 minutes or so fatser than the overall winner. Maybe Norman would have looked more tired if he would have run faster in the last couple of miles rather than constantly looking back to see if he had to any harder. Even if he did get information afterwards about what took place behind him on the bike during the race, who cares? Why should he worry about that after the fact? He won the race.

I like Norman, I think he shoots a bit too much from the hip sometimes, but what the hell - i'm tired of athlete's who all say "i just did what i could... i was lucky today... i have the upmost respect for my competitors... blah blah blah." I liked it when Peter Reid said Norman couldn't win and you KNOW that he was thinking about that all day yesterday. In fact it was basically the first words out of his mouth!

Norman is a very emotional person - you can tell from the way he talks and from the way he melted down last year - i do think Peter was onto something with what he said however - Norman is a one strategy guy - you won't see him finishing 3rd or 4th in any of these races - it's an all or nothing deal for him and he knows it. Look at his almost total-meltdown at IM-Germany this year - he went from 1st to 11th - once he got passed by two or three people he was basically done - he shut off and just muddled his way in.

I think he has the potential to win again - but he'll have to train even harder to do it. I think you've got three or four guys now who know they are close and finally know that if they skip that mid-summer IM they can just build their cycling skills that much more (are you listening Macca, Cam Brown). But now that he's shown he can run 2:55 twice in Hawaii no one will be able to let him get 10min up the road. they will have to keep it at under 7 and see if they can run after that hard of a bike.

Beke ran 2:48 off a 4:33 bike; Sergio ran a 2:43 off a 4:50 bike. I think that's what he's talking about. If Sergio can shave 20 minutes off the bike and still run a 2:43, then we'll have something to talk about.

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Adrian in Vancouver

I completely agree. However, I imagine that they are going to really push themselves to their absolute training threshold to make the necessary improvements to close the gap on the bike. With Stadler swimming that fast and running well under 3 hours, he will be hard to beat. I'm sure nobody was strategically letting him go this year on the bike. He biked a frickin' 4'18' !!!! Next years race is going to be incredible!!! Just think of it...everyone is going to know that Stadler cannot be allowed to get any time on the bike. There will be a much needed change from the boring IM's of the past - next year there will be guts and vomit along the Queen K bike course.

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Adrian in Vancouver

I completely agree. However, I imagine that they are going to really push themselves to their absolute training threshold to make the necessary improvements to close the gap on the bike. With Stadler swimming that fast and running well under 3 hours, he will be hard to beat. I'm sure nobody was strategically letting him go this year on the bike. He biked a frickin' 4'18' !!!! Next years race is going to be incredible!!! Just think of it...everyone is going to know that Stadler cannot be allowed to get any time on the bike. There will be a much needed change from the boring IM's of the past - next year there will be guts and vomit along the Queen K bike course.


I've got to say I thought this year's race was frickin' incredible. As much as it looks like those guys are sitting in line riding steady while Norman rides away - the rest of them rode 4:29. I don't care how good the conditions are - that is freakin' fast and made for awesome racing out there. I think the biggest thing to take away from this year's race is how important swimming is to a top finish and just how fast these guys are all riding. It would be sweet if there was a way to get more of the top 20 pros head to head in the early part of the year - just think about it if IMNZ or IMOZ has a $50,000-$75,000 pay out to the winner and paid 20-25 deep how many top pros would go down there to race. As it is it just Macca beating up on Jason Shortis every year - ho hum... boooooring.

Hahahahahahahahaha..............................absolutely brilliant :)

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"You are never too old to set another goal or to dream a new dream" - Les Brown
"Discipline is the bridge between goals and accomplishment" - Jim Rohn

HA! If anyone got an advantage on the bike that day, it was Stadler! The Ford Explorer with the timing board, the camera bikes in eschlon formation ahead of him, etc. I watched the coverage when he pulled up on the explorer, then coasted while he fished around for a gu while sitting comfortably in the draft. Mr. Pot, meet Mr. Kettle.

[reply]And? The race was yesterday and the results are final.[/reply]

Not until the drug tests come back. ;)

Faris Al-Sultan says the same about Macca



from his homepage:

During the race Faris told German television reporters and 3athlon.de: “Normann should be careful not to get caught by this guy. Everyone deserves to win here except for him. If this is the future of Ironman... ” Al-Sultan expressed what many spectators saw: McCormack once again did not ride fairly. “There’s not much left to say about McCormack”, Al Sultan said after his marathon, which he ran in 2:50:44 minutes. “I’m happy I finished Top 3 and my congratulations go out to Normann. He put on a great race.”

[reply]Faris Al-Sultan says the same about Macca



from his homepage:

During the race Faris told German television reporters and 3athlon.de: “[i]Normann should be careful not to get caught by this guy. Everyone deserves to win here except for him. If this is the future of Ironman... [/i]” Al-Sultan expressed what many spectators saw: McCormack once again did not ride fairly. “[i]There’s not much left to say about McCormack[/i]”, Al Sultan said after his marathon, which he ran in 2:50:44 minutes. “[i]I’m happy I finished Top 3 and my congratulations go out to Normann. He put on a great race[/i].”[/reply]

Faris was pissed off about Chris in Roth for the same reason.

Axel (hi flo, hows things?)

Strange! Wasn't Faris in the same pack as Macca, in fact weren't there 5-6 other riders???

BTW, if Norman wants to be such a "pure" champion, shouldn't he then make sure that he swims entirely alone and does not "draft" of someones feet even if it is legal? Get a grip Normann! Enjoy the win and get a new belly-tattoe or something instead of trashing the competitors.

The history books will show that Norman won in Kona 04 and 06 (maybe more), but he will never be a true champion. An überbiker for sure, but his obnoxious behaviour and disrespect for the competitors when winning and cry-baby behaviour as defending champion when losing will never merit him the title as a true champion. Sad but true.

Macca ran the best race yesterday and no one can take that from him ..

[reply]BTW, if Norman wants to be such a "pure" champion, shouldn't he then make sure that he swims entirely alone and does not "draft" of someones feet even if it is legal? [/reply]

While I somewhat agree with portions of your post this statement makes no sense.

Apparently Faris said something similar (during the race) to the german TV crew - that he hoped Normann wouldn't get caught, because although some people in the group deserved to win, the Australian definately didn't.

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Searching for the bliss of ultimate exertion.

You not understanding makes perfect sense.

you have obviously not done too many im's...being in a group (which i guess wasn't a drafting pack) is the best place to see who rides legally and who rides illegally...ever been elated to win a race and n-semi delerium get too joyful (i.e. the macca hug since you just beat someone who was using an unfair advantage?)

just like us mop'ers, some lead guys cheat and now that faris says the same thing, it is pretty damning on macca...

Logic isn't tied to number of IM:s completed.

If Macca was "drafting" so was Faris. I didn't see Faris going after Normann or Lieto. The fact that the non-draft-zone should be bigger is another question. And are you seriously saying that bridging up to a group in the swim and hanging on their feet isn't to prefer and advantageous yet perfectly legal?

[reply]Macca ran the best race yesterday and no one can take that from him ..[/reply]

Uhm, didn't he finish Second?

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Just Triing
Triathlete since 9:56:39 AM EST Aug 20, 2006.
Be kind English is my 2nd language. My primary language is Dave it's a unique evolution of English.

[reply]You not understanding makes perfect sense.[/reply]
So tell me what I'm missing. How does being upset about someone illegally drafting relate to drafting on the swim, which is perfectly within the rules?

is reason your second language?

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Mike Ricci
2017 USAT World Team Coach
USAT National Coach of the Year
Coaching Triathletes since 1992.

Even if Macca was drafting, Normann is full of it. He told triathlete mag that he wasn't pushed during the run. Is that why he ran the last mile sideways to see if Macca was going to catch him?

You're only a cheater if you told so, by officials. Accusations do not count, as the officials clearly didn't think so!

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http://theworldthroumyeyes.tumblr.com/

How do you say "loose cannon".

Norman still has to learn how to button his mouth and be a bit more gracious.

Apparently Faris was not that happy either.

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Searching for the bliss of ultimate exertion.

Come on this is serious fun, the NFL has Terrell Owens (T.O.)...Why can't we have our own in Ironman... ;) Talking about history, all this mouth (trash) talking will not appear on the books at the end Normann won so far 2 Kona and this time got the bike course record... This is what people want bike course records to sell bikes and buy new toys!

Personally, I simply don't care what he says, l like the way he races from the front, he takes chances sometimes he loses but other times he wins. Cameron Brown is a great athlete nobody seem more consistent than him, from my point of view he doesn't seem to take chance everything looks so pre-calculated, maybe if he wants to win Hawaii he will have to get out from his game plan. Lisa Bentley is another example she seem to think that maybe she had a chance to catch the leaders, we all saw the guts she had... I was so thrill looking at her going 110% on the run giving every bit of energy she had left in her body (amazing racing), she finally got her first Kona podium.

Maybe Normann wanted to rub it in Macca's face that Macca couldn't beat Normann. At first, it looked like a congratulatory hug, but from what I've heard about Normann, heard what he had to say, and seeing him keep looking back over his shoulder during the race, I bet you that he didn't have very sportsman like intentions for the hug.

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http://trainingoferic.blogspot.com/

Macca beating up on Jason Shortis every year

I'm quite sure Shortis could whip Macca's ass something fierce if there was body contact allowed. That guy is huge!!!!!!!

As noted...you need to understand the dynamics of pack-riding at Ironman (legally). As noted....Macca "could" have ridden at 7m the entire time, but yet the pros would be pissed and call it drafting. Why?

• Most of the pros disagree with the wind tunnel conclusions.
• To the point above, the tribal law is perhaps more important than the WTC law
• In a pack, the goal is to catch the leader/chose the pace. If Macca just say in back (I don't know), the pros would say he didn't do his "job" of helping the pack...legally. More like wheelsucking than drafting...but we'll just call it drafting for fun.
• Same example above, he might have been alternating his position in the "peloton" to further his advantage and not working with the pack.
• He might have been drafting when the crews were not around
• I imagine there was plenty of smack-talk occuring

Normann's words were obviously second-hand and he was only protecting his defense for next year. When you're the sheriff in town, you need to sway the vote of the city council. But, coming from Faris....that means quite a bit (to me). Macca would be voted off the island if this was a reality show......

But, Macca is a really cool dude!

Is it really very interesting who is the bether swimmer/biker/runner??

Its al about putting it all together and getting to the finishline 1st is it not?

I would say Norman did that in a fantastic way on saturday!

Clas can do the same in the future, no doubt. But he has to start racing Hawaii. To learn the race.

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Espen Wagener
Kongsberg, Norway

http://www.espenwagener.blogspot.com

"Drafting" on bike, but yet keeping legal distance (Macca, Faris) = advantageous and allowed

"Drafting" on someones feet in the swim (Normann) = Advantageous and allowed

Clear enough for you?? And that's why I think Normann should get of his high horses and focus on his victory instead. For christ sake, he is, as he so modestly pointed out himself during the awards ceremony, a two-time world champion.

There has been NO illegal drafting established as there would have been penalties. Normann (and Faris although he reaped the same benefit in the pack- Go figure?) are referring to the draft you get even though you ride at legal distance in a pack. Or didn't you get that??

All the respect I formed for Stadler after watching him on Saturday went out the door. What an asshole!

Indeed. Olaf Sabatschus was in Kona to get the pros to gang up to have WTC set the rule back to 10m. As WTC didn't want to to do so earlier this year, he forfeited his Kona slot and decided not to race as a sign of protest.
He had multiple contacts (leading www.triathlon-professionals.org) to get the 10m back and WTC just ignored everything.
90% of the pros decided 10m was a lot better...macca wasn't one of them (as far as I know).

nor was Stadler...the only reason I can imagine he would not want to sign regarding the rule changes is he does not agree with Olaf's stance of drug testing outside of competition...

" nor was Stadler...the only reason I can imagine he would not want to sign regarding the rule changes is he does not agree with Olaf's stance of drug testing outside of competition..."

...which just makes me scratch my head. I've read what is being proposed and heard quite a few discussions about it. How can you not agree with that (which may be a rhetorical question)?

were we thinking the same thing again...?

Yes... this is freaky! ;-)

There was an interview with Peter Reid (Ficker's ex Tri Dubai teammate) and he said that Desiree asks all the right questions about winning Kona. 2nd could just be a stepping stone for her.

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SUPPORT OPERATION REBOUND:
http://www.operationreboundcalifornia.kintera.org/ejs3

Kestrel Syndicate
Macca Fan Club

This board blindly loves Macca, almost to the point of obsession...Macca can do no wrong. You guys are so lovestruck that you call Normann and Faris a$$holes for speaking out? The 1st and 3rd place finisher - both world champions who have won it going solo - both stated that Macca rode unfairly, and they know a hell of a lot more about the race than any of us do!

So you've lost respect for Normann because he spoke his mind. So you've lost respect for Faris because he spoke his mind. Do you also lose respect for Peter Reid because he spoke his mind? Sorry to disturb your feel-good world, but the reality in elite sport is that not everybody plays fair - and when somebody doesn't play fair at the top level, they should be called on it.

And the poster who said that Normann isn't a pure champion. That's about the stupidest thing I've heard in a while. Did he lot basically lead the race from start to finish?

[reply]
There has been NO illegal drafting established as there would have been penalties. Normann (and Faris although he reaped the same benefit in the pack- Go figure?) are referring to the draft you get even though you ride at legal distance in a pack. Or didn't you get that??[/reply]I think you don't get it. In the press conference Faris said, that he is of the opinion Macca was way too close to the guys in front. If that's correct, he's a cheater (and several guys seem to be convinced of that).

Fennec

Warning broad generalization follows:

Australians and Kiwis tend to be a lot more personable than Euros. Its easy to like them. Maybe its a cultural thing, maybe its a language thing, but one thing I've noticed growing up in Kona is that year after year the guys from the Southern Hemisphere treat the local people better than the Euros tend to.

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Awww, Katy's not all THAT evil. Only slightly evil. In a good way. - JasoninHalifax

If it's perfectly fine for AGers to complain about drafting in (in many races, on this board) then why isn't it ok for pro's to call out drafters? How mad would you be if you were in the top 10, not drafting and saw someone else drafting? Would you just shut up and smile or would you speak up?
Drafters SUCK and if you've ever experienced leading and then getting caught by a peloton YOU KNOW IT!

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Check out my IMLP Janus Charity Challenge Page
https://www.kintera.org/...&supid=247145789
Raising Funds for Myeloma Research in Honor of my Mom

Very true. Australians, Kiwis and Canadians - generally loved wherever they go, and I understand the love here for him. It just bugs me that people actually take away from Normann's talent, just because the guy says what's on his mind. And it's not even that bad...it's not like he's Paul Tracy, calling the other drivers a$$holes.

Flanagan is ill-informed.

First, if you watched the coverage: Al Sultan fell out of the chase pack early on, but caught up to them (when they slowed) and then was seen at the front of the pack most of the time (so guess who was latching on to whom?).

Second, ironman athletes registered in Germany have to have a pro-license, are subject to IOC rules which includes out of competition testing.

Additionally, I do not know any group of athletes who are more adament and vocal about keeping the sport clean. Olaf Sabatschus is just the spokesperson for a lot of them.

Unless the athletes in other countries get their lazy asses together, speak up and organize in a similar fashion, they are the ones who have to be thought of as "opposed to a clean sport".

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Ego numquam pronuncio mendacium,
sed sum homo salvaticus

Agreed. I think its stupid to say he's not a true champion. Its a race, not a 'who can be nicest' contest.

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Awww, Katy's not all THAT evil. Only slightly evil. In a good way. - JasoninHalifax

Did anyone notice how close Stadler was to the camera crews when he came back into Kona? I was watching on imlive.com and even called my wife over to show her how close he was. Makes me wonder what was going on all the way back and before Hawi. I won't consider Stadler a champion until we hear back from the lab. After Ben Johnson, Floyd Landis, Marco Pantani, Tim Don, Nina Kraft, Spencer Smith, Jan Ullrich, I don't believe anything until the fat lady at the lab sings.

Agreed. The commentators made many repeated references to Faris leading the chase pack. It's tough to be called a drafter when you're pulling the pack.

I have not said anything regarding Faris "sitting-in". I watched also, and he pulled the chase pack pretty much the whole way. My statement was that it is interesting Normann is not a member of Olaf's organization (at least based on an Interview/article I read that I have been trying to find again for the last half hour). You would think Normann would certainly want a 10m draft box; hell, he would probably want a 25m draft box. Why is he not a member? That is all I am getting at. Perhaps there are some other core issues (ie testing) which he does not agree with the general platform of the organization. Speculatory? Yes. But don't claim I am ill-informed.

"This board blindly loves Macca, almost to the point of obsession...Macca can do no wrong."

Did Macca switch to Cervelo when I wasn't looking? :)

Seriously though, I think alot of this is stemming from the image many still have in their heads of Normann from last year's race. Although no one may want to admit it, it seemed a less than masculine thing to do. Face it, what was most men's first reaction to seeing Normann throw his bike and start crying last year? Not saying it is justified, but I think many would be lying if they said they weren't at first a little repulsed by the reaction, and that impression has probably stuck for some.

I wouldn't say repulsed. I was fascinated, because it showed how much of a deep mental and emotional toll the Ironman takes on you.

"(at least based on an Interview/article I read that I have been trying to find again for the last half hour)."

From SlowDef:

"8:35AM: Olaf's website contains a voting utility, where the pro athletes only can vote. You have to hold a pro license to register, and votes are held from time to time. It's by private ballot. But the voting itself is transparent and available for all to see. For example, a vote was held on drafting rules, specifically whether 10 meters in between bikes (back to front) ought to be the rule at longer distance races worldwide. Olaf says 90% of the pros voted in favor of this. There are 130 athletes on the voting list and who've registered. Most of this race's favorites are signed up, and Karen Smyers and Lori Bowden added their names this week. Faris, Cam Brown, Ain Alar Juhanson, Alex Taubert, Andrea Breder, Dede Griesbauer, Drs. Tom Evans and Joanna Zeiger, Chris Lieto, Lori Bowden, Luc Van Lierde, Cam Widoff, are some of the members racing toda. Normann is not a member, as of yet. Gordo Byrn is. Peter Reid was in, prior to his retirement. Simon Lessing is also a member."

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I don't feel that people have complained about Faris complaining about drafting. In fact, they thought it added some credibility to Stadler's complaint. What people have been complaining about is Stadler's stupid actions last year and this year: to recap: he throws his bike (somewhat understandable in the heat of the moment); he complains that he wasn't voted Germany athlete of the year (instead I believe it went to some handicap athlete) I also believe he lost some sponsors because of what he said; and now this year he claims Macca cheated; and he spoke at the awards banquet wanting to be called 2X champion. IMO, this guy simply talks way too much! Of course this is across all sports where class and acting humble are long since gone. I sure do miss the days of Walter Payton where after scoring a touchdown he just handed the football to the ref and went to the sidelines. He knew what he had done and that was satisfaction enough. Stadler needs attention, and that is pathetic.

Faris is more old school and I greatly respect that. As for Macca and Brown, although they were legal in the pack, they were weak because they didn't take any pulls up front. Maybe they didn't have the strength to lead, but that is why the draft should be changed back to 10M.

That's a rather pessimistic view given the fact that he basically did the same thing two years ago and was on his way to doing it last year when he melted down like a 3 year old. I assume you are withholding judgment on Jones and everyone who won an AG title until you see the lab tests. Very sad that this is the state of our sport.

Clearly you were not paying attention -- Faris was pulling the second group.

"It's tough to be called a drafter when you're pulling the pack. "

Maybe there was a strong tailwind.

I won't comment on the doping as it is only based on beliefs. But I am suspicious for sure.

Normann didn't join tri-pro. However, he has to comply to the now quite strict doping code in

Germany.

Guys...my roomate was riding in the group with Faris and Macca. Bottom line is Faris is the defending champion. Like Reid, everyone marks the defending champ. If the defending champ wants to win, he needs to blow things apart (like Reid has done in the past)....or they all ride together and hope to outrun Faris.

The bottom line is that the current rule is 7 m back to front with is 4 bike lengths and at 40 kph, there is a huge benefit. Everyone works within the rules. All these guys have too much respect for one another to actually DRAFT. Faris did a lot of work to keep the pack in contact with Norman coming back from Hawi. Guys like Macca and Cam Brown, are tactically better served to save their legs for the run and may have not spent as much time up FRONT, but from those who were there, they say, that they all rode clean. There is a sort of self policing and mutual respect amongst all these guys.

If you talk to any of the pros in the main pack, they all want a 10 m back to front rule, but while it is 7m, the guys all ride in the rules. Faris might be dissappointed, cause he spent most of the time in the front, but in the context of the rules, the others were playing their cards for their best shot at $110,000.

Guys like Olaf S are working on getting a 10 m back to front rule. That will change the dynamics and blow things apart better. If you talk to any of these guys, they all want 10 m, but no one will concede an inch on race day and they would be idiots to ride 10.5 m apart when 7m apart is legal and keep them in better contact with Norman.

On that note, a huge congrats to Chris Lieto who is the only one who mounted a chase, fading later to around 10th

I agree totally on this one. Whether or not you like Normann or Faris, or that they speak there mind, it doesn't take away the fact that 2 of the top guys in Hawaii are both calling out the same guy for cheating. For any of you who have raced in Hawaii in the last several years, I am sure you have seen the huge lead pack of pros coming back from Hawi "legally drafting" in their giant off-set packs of riders. This is not to say that just anyone would be able to hang with these guys if they were in the pack(this is still a very elite group) however there are certainly guys within that chase "pack" who are able to benefit much more than others, and therefore improve their result over others in the pack, or even those racing to catch up who could potentially catch those riders who are riding hard and fair. The racers among the front group know who isn't riding legally and when you hear people calling someone out, there might be something to it.

Furthermore, this isn't the first time I have heard complaints about Macca's racing style. A good friend of mine who raced with him (as a pro) at L.A. several years ago, said there was some talk of DQing him when he was seen cutting the course in several places. (We all know it is smart racing to run the tangent of the course, but apparently he was seen cutting through parking lots and peoples lawns to shorten it up anyway possibly). I guess these accusations don't really suprise me since I've heard this topic come up more than once with Macca. We all know there is a lot of drafting that goes on (whether on purpose or not) among age group packs early in the Ironman bike (which is no less offensive), but I think the officials should really crack down on the people (especially those racing for a lot of money)who appear to be getting an unfair advantage from this sort of thing.

For those of you who complain that Normann was getting a draft off the lead vehicle, that isn't really his fault. If he is at the front going as hard as he can to make time on the field, he can't control the fact that the pace cars don't move further in front of him. It should be up to the motorcycles and lead vehicle to stay out of the way and not give him an advantage.

Adding more oil to the discussion... ;)

Reference: www.digitaltriathlon.com

1) leading vehicles


2) Chasing pack #2



3) Chasing pack #1



4) At least on this picture Macca third doesn't seem drafting... ;)



5) Is Macca in the draft zone... I can't tell because of the angle of picture



6) Chasing Pack #1, without no moto entourage advantage... :)



7) No vehicle around... ;)



8) Look at the bottom picture no Age-group drafting... ;)

I'm confused by this discussion. Weren't there draft marshalls continuously following the chase pack? I can't imagine that anyone in this pack wanted a penalty. If you accuse Macca of dratfing in that group, then by extension why wouldn't you say the same of Cam or LLanos? I have a hard time buying that the marshalls were playing favorites either. I do agree though that they need to go back to 10m.

It sounds to me like someone needs to do some research on wind speed, the length between two riders which would give a mutual benefit, how they correlate, etc. Because it is clearly not established. Here's my opinion. If the officials didn't call anyone for drafting in the "pack" with McCormack, al sultan, etc., i don't think it should be called a "pack." If no one was called, it's legal right? So if stadler wants to solo by himself on the bike, good for him for winning the gutsy way. But, it's smarter to estimate 7m and stay behind someone I guess, if you still get a benefit, legally.

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"I like to start out slow, and then taper off."

-Doug Thorne (TVHS XC)

Alex, like any pic it is hard tell. From what everyone said, the first pack rode a clean 7m. They constantly had marshals around. Did the guys use the rule to their advantage? YES. Its is no different than drafting the swim. A pro would be an idiot to not draft the swim. They just need to take the zone back to 10m. Pretty simple. Macca swim, biked and ran a fair race.

In most of those pics (excluding the AG pic for sure), it's really hard to tell the spacing in between given the angle of the photo. You need a side view to see spacing. I'd say that at least the first few guys in those top pictures look like they could be riding clean. But, that's an issue for the refs, and if they didn't penalize the drafters, hopefully karma will catch up to them later!

Like Dev said, it just re-confirms that 10m would be best so that there is no advantage or disadvantage - whether you are leading the race or back in the mix.

but from those who were there, they say


Minus the person claiming it. Granted, Faris should have been "smarter" about his tactics.

I'm going to put an asterisk next to Macca's name on my scorecard. Kudos for his race, but I imagine this story isn't over.

My tongue/cheek comment is that the simliar folks (not you Dev) who complain about drafting are defending Macca's 7m wheelsucking. Within the rules..of course. But, it's a cowardly race tactic and not Macca's style. Maybe he has found a way to win 7!!!

Considering that Stadler was WAY in front of Macca for the entire bike portion of the race, I am having a tough time figuring out how he was able to see Macca drafting and cheating in a pack 10 minutes behind him......

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http://iron-boom.blogspot.com

Uh...Faris, not Normann.

Check his website.

Uh, actually, I was referring to Stadler....the title of this thread.

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http://iron-boom.blogspot.com

And you responded to me.....which was a post about Faris.

21.10.2006 Faris Al-Sultan gets 3rd at Ford Ironman Hawaii Triathlon World Championship
Faris Al-Sultan was not able to defend his title in the Ford Ironman Hawaii Triathlon. During his swim of 53:36 minutes in heavy currents Al-Sultan was not able to pull away from his rivals as he is used to doing. On the bike however he retained all of his chances for a victory, riding a time of 4:29:37 hours and working hard in the chase pack. Apparently, however, not all athletes in the pack adhered to the rules as conscientiously as Al-Sultan did.

During the race Faris told German television reporters and 3athlon.de: “Normann should be careful not to get caught by this guy. Everyone deserves to win here except for him. If this is the future of Ironman... ” Al-Sultan expressed what many spectators saw: McCormack once again did not ride fairly. “There’s not much left to say about McCormack”, Al Sultan said after his marathon, which he ran in 2:50:44 minutes. “I’m happy I finished Top 3 and my congratulations go out to Normann. He put on a great race.”
(Source: Kai Baumgartner, 3athlon.de; Translation Sebastian Moll)

You are right...my apologies. I did hit the respond to you. I was responding to the thread...Norman calling out Macca

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http://iron-boom.blogspot.com

4 minute penalty before posting again please....

;o)

kidding.

just curious - of those taking part in this discussion, who has been on a motorcycle working a race as a bike course marshal? Seems to me that there is two sides to the issue, one is from the rider's perspective and one is the official's....

One thing's for sure. The draft zone behind any vehicle should be huge, at least 100m behind an SUV and 50m behind a motorcycle.

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_________________
Dick

Take everything I say with a grain of salt. I know nothing.

" I don't believe anything until the fat lady at the lab sings."


Haha, this is really funny:

The Lab actually consists out of "fat ladies", figuratively spoken. Old gazers who have no idea what they are doing most of the time (half of them aren't even endocrinologists or biochemists). I recently had a chance to actually follow the actual way of an urine sample (time it was taken, how it was stored, how it was transported, the time it arrived at the lab, how it was stored there, when it was analyzed). All I can say is: Unless they either freeze or at least refrigerate samples directly after being taken for transport, they are gonna be choke-full of metabolites that weren't originally there (and that may very well give false positives).

If I were an athlete I would be mad as hell how careless they handled the sample.

Sophisticated drug testing nowadays means squat (unless they test for the stuff that is really easy to find and is not used for that reason).

One must be an expert to distinguish between a real and a false positive.

Unfortunately for the athlete, press, WADA and the public don't care.

I am siding with the Pro-athletes that have to live in constant fear of being screwed by WADA and the labs.

Some excellent athletes have already decided that it is not worth it turning Pro....

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Ego numquam pronuncio mendacium,
sed sum homo salvaticus

I wasn't there and can't comment on the validity of Stadler's or Faris's comments, nor do I care too. However, it is relevant to note that Hellriegel made the same comment last year about Macca.

That said, and assuming that the marshalls were doing their job (both years), he wasn't "got" either year. That suggests he wasn't drafting because if he was, he'd have been busted. I think we have seen enough pros busted in the last few years to feel comfortable that the marshalls are not playing favourites.

I note that there are a lot of comments about the draft that Stadler was getting from the press vehilces. The same comments flew about several years ago with Steve Larson (who remembers Stadler's T2 comment that larson was a "rocket"?). It seems to me that the proximity of the media fleet is not caused by the athlete (the athlete is not drafting) but rather that the press fleet is not keeping the requisite distance ahead of the athlete. I do not think that it is the athlete's responsibility to slow down because of the press vehicles - rather, its the press vehicles responsibility to stay clear of the athlete. That said, i recall Lothar Leder being pinged in 1999 for drafting off the press vehicles.

Anyway, my two cents worth on the topic ...

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If anybody can, a Kiwi can

[reply]I do not think that it is the athlete's responsibility to slow down because of the press vehicles - rather, its the press vehicles responsibility to stay clear of the athlete. That said, i recall Lothar Leder being pinged in 1999 for drafting off the press vehicles. [/reply]

You thunk wrong:

"a. Illegal Positioning. Except as otherwise provided in these Rules, while on the cycling course, no participant
shall permit his drafting zone to intersect with or remain intersected with the drafting zone of another cyclist or
that of a motor vehicle. With respect to a motor vehicle (including authorized race vehicles), it is the athlete’s
responsibility to move out of the vehicle’s drafting zone or to continually communicate to the vehicle to move
away.
b. Definition of Drafting Zone. The term "drafting zone" shall refer to a rectangular area seven (7) meters long
and two (2) meters wide surrounding each bicycle. The longer sides of the zone begin at the leading edge of the
front wheel and run backward parallel to the bicycle; the front wheel divides the short side of the zone into two
equal parts. With respect to a moving motor vehicle, the "drafting zone" is a rectangular area extending 15
meters to each side of the vehicle and 30 meters behind the vehicle."

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"Go yell at an M&M"

Ken

Point taken. But I still think that from a practical perspective, race and media vehicles should take responsibility to stay out of an athlete's zone. While i will never be in a position to test the point, I would have thought that a Norman or Jurgen or Larson would be pretty pissed off if they had to slow down to stay out of the media trucks zone. My concern would be that then the media truck would slow down to keep the photographers in close enough to get the shots they want. A bit of a chicken and egg scenario IMO.

However, I have noted your rule reference, and if I'm ever in that position, I will slow down.

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If anybody can, a Kiwi can

And NBA players whine and complain about the ref's not calling fouls on other guys. And baseball guys whine and complain if a ball/strike call doesn't go their way. And defensive lineman complain about holding.

If a person follows the rules, IT'S NOT CHEATING. There are refs out there, doing their jobs. If they didn't call a foul, there is no foul. How in the hell would Stadler know what Macca's doing 2-3 miles behind him? Stadler complains about the top overall finishers from the chase pack EVERY SINGLE YEAR. Faris is complaining because he pulled the chase group and got passed on the run. Tough toenails, pal. Next time try something different -- you're the marked man and you gotta step up. The sport is what it is.

Riding at 7 meters is not cheating. Sure, it's drafting, but drafting is legal in an IM as long as you don't draft from closer than the rules allow. Everybody wants the rules enforced, unless the rules are inconvenient for them. Stadler and al Sultan are being poor sports for expecting the refs to create special rules just to protect them and their strategies.

Besides, simple rule violations don't rise to the level of "cheating." It's a foul -- and plenty of sports have fouls where a penalty is paid, and the player continues in the game. Did Granger "cheat?" No, she committed a foul. Does an NBA player who bumps a guy too hard "cheat?" No, he committed a foul.

Claiming that both Stadler and Al Sultan are pissed at Mac Cormack because he got second is not very classy.

And I disagree:

The sport is not what it is,

it is what you make of it.

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___________________________________________
Ego numquam pronuncio mendacium,
sed sum homo salvaticus

I think the general problem is that we don't understand their motivation for making those comments. They could be tongue/cheek, it could be conditioning the refs for next year, it could be the Clas-issue with 7m, it could be because of a comment made on course, it could be b/c of many other things.....

"We" then take those comments out of context....as do many of the folks in the press. We just don't know.

But, we do know Macca got 2nd and didn't get any penalty. Just like OJ was innocent. Okay...forget that last comment. Just kidding.

Ken:

You got the age group vehicle zone right (15 m to the side, 30 m behind), but I think the pro rule is different (1 m to the side, 15 m behind).

I've heard the side is short so that media can get good profile shots.

Baumgartner from a German Triathlon Magazine points to power data from 2peaks. His point is that there is 30-40 W difference between Faris and some in the pack and his conclusion that no matter if 7m (legal) or less (illegal), it does make a difference.

[url]http://3athlon.2peak.com/srm/srm_kona_2006/hawaii.php[/url]

According to Baumgartner, Macca saw the interview from Stadler and they got into "a hot discussion" at the party after the race.
[url]http://3athlon.blogspot.com/2006/10/diskussion-ber-die-windschattenbox-und.html[/url]

>>There are refs out there, doing their jobs. If they didn't call a foul, there is no foul.

Uhh..no. If the ref doesn't call the foul, it simply means the player got away with it. There's a difference.

Ex. if a defender knowingly hacks the shooter on the elbow while he's going up for the shot, but the ref doesn't see it, that doesn't mean the foul wasn't committed. It just means he wasn't called for it.

Similarly, if a rider consciously drafts the rider in front of him, but is smart enough to drop back every time he sees a draft marshall, that doesn't mean he didn't cheat. It means he didn't get caught.

I'm sure the legal 7M buffer zone will help the riders some, but not nearly as much as we're seeing in the power numbers at 2peak. Faris, who everyone agrees pulled the pack, averages near 280 watts. Cam Brown, who was in the chase pack with Macca, averages 215 for the same overall time as Faris.

Hmm......suspicious.....

Or a badly calibrated powermeter. I've sat in a draft at that distance with a PM. It's 15-20 watts, at most. If Cam rode 215, he would have run <2:40 and won the race, missed feed bag or not.

His HR data was consistent with his other IM rides.

We can argue the semantics all day. I say: no whistle, no foul. Crybabies complain about the refs. Champions don't.

Crybabies complain about the refs. Champions don't.

I see a lot of champions jawing at refs. I see a lot of opposing coaches jawing at refs to not let the 'champion' intimidate them. Jordan, the champion of champions, could badger refs into calling what MJ wanted called, and repeatedly used it to his advantage. I'm not sure there's a highly competitive athlete out there that doesn't complain when a ref/ump misses a call. It's true that champions rarely blame a loss on officiating, but they almost all certainly complain about it.

Truth is, when you win, there's a whole lot less to complain about, and winning erases memories of bad calls.

Again, I don't any highly competitive athlete that has a missed call go against them and says "golly gee whiz, it's just part of the game". ;)

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-- Every morning brings opportunity;
Each evening offers judgement. --

Ok, so if you are outside the zone then your not drafting. Thats the rules. If by chance you are inside the zone then you are cheating. Every pro that was there would definately let the drafter know as believe it or not there is quite a lot of mutual respect. If Norman and Feris want to change the rules then they should sit down with WTC voice there opinions. If WTC was going to listen to anyone, it probably would be the two past winners. Now about Macca??? Who knows. Marshals are the judge, jury and executioners. If a penalty wasn't called then he didn't cheat as far as the rules are concerned. It will be very obvious when its on TV and if there is anything, don't be surprised if WTC does absolutely nothing.

Doesn't look like 7m to me.

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Searching for the bliss of ultimate exertion.

peope sure want to analyze these things to death...anyone ever done an im and be pissed off that another person didn't work as hard as you because they drafted? it is that simple....happens all the time and this board is filled with such comments after every im...just cause they are pros doesn't mean that they don't have the same reaction as any of us..."that s.o.b. rode my wheel all the way around the course...i don't know how he can live with himself..." that is just what norman and faris are saying...same thing you would as well.

Maybe it was less than 7m. Or it could have been in the middle of a pass, or just before / after an aid station, where it is legal to be in the zone. Still shots don't tell the whole story.

Barry Bonds. It's true, as sad a case as he is.

What can they do? If penalties are visible from a helicopter that can't be discerned on a motorcycle, then maybe we need marshals cruising the course in a fleet of JetRangers. So far, the focus of this thread has been on one part of the problem - the existing draft zone is too small to eliminate the benefit of wind-block and thus encourages riders to push the envelope of legal position on the road.

There is another problem, the current rules can't be enforced, at least with any kind of consistency. Drafting calls are totally subjective, and it's up to the marshal's judgement if an infraction occurs. How much that consistency varies is how much controversy there is surrounding just about every race.

Earlier in this thread I asked who has marshaled a race - nobody responded, so I guess none of you have, or you are too embarrassed to admit it (you get to wear a helmet, if you keep the visor down your friends won't know it's you) Fact is, the drafting rules are virtually impossible to enforce with any degree of accuracy, and if you have ever sat on the back of a moto at 30-40 km/h, 100 or so meters behind a group of cyclists and tried to judge if there is 5 meters or 8 meters between wheels, you would know that the rule is virtually useless not because it doesn't remove the benefit of drafting, but because it can't be enforced!

7 m is all of ten 700 bicycle wheels. I can see 10 700 wheels in that pic between Macca and Norman. Regardless, there is a full motorcade around them and if he was drafting he'd be nailed. Pics are always deceiving too. He may have just been passed and was moving back to the legal distance.

I've chatted to Jason at a race in Malaysia a couple of years ago and raced both of my IM's "with him" ( although about 3-4 hours behind ! ).

An absolutely classy guy , who will talk with absolutely anybody and as humble as pie. In actual fact , my wife found him to be shy !

Adittionally , he's built like a brick shithouse !

---

"You are never too old to set another goal or to dream a new dream" - Les Brown
"Discipline is the bridge between goals and accomplishment" - Jim Rohn

I don't know about you Dev, but I was about 1/3 of the way up to Hawi when the pros were coming down. Stadler was way out in front with Lieto chasing. A few minutes behind was a huge pack of pros all riding pretty tight - not just rear-to-front wheel but also along side each other. I talked to a couple other guys and eveyone thought it looked pretty draft friendly.

In fact, this was by far the worst race I've been in with regard to drafting. There were huge packs of riders bunched together for nearly the whole race. I was really disappointed to see how many people chose to ride the race like that.

Faris lead the chase group the entire race, as I witnessed. If there was a triathlete that drafted, it was not Faris.

Were you on the course? According to IMlive there was about an hour where he wasn't in the lead of the chase group...

From Ironman Live:

The lead group shatters
RACETIME: 03:07
Faris Al-Sultan has been spat out the back of the chase group.

Stadler's lead is up to 5:40 over Chris Lieto and Chris McCormack.

Al-Sultan is at 6:05.


The men through mile 55
RACETIME: 03:13
Stadler continues to put the hurt on the guys behind him. Hanging tough is Cameron Brown -- he remains solidly in the chase group.


* Chris Lieto (#18) at 5:40
* Chris McCormack (#6) at 6:40
* Cameron Brown (#2) at 5:45
* Luke Bell (#13) at 5:45
* Tom Evans (#27) at 5:51
* Eneko Llanos (#121) at 5:51
* Faris Al-Sultan (#1) at 6:05
* Craig McKenzie (#29) at 8:27
* Rutger Beke (#4) at 8:38

The men coming back from Hawi
RACETIME: 03:29
Still leading is Normann Stadler (#26).
Lieto is hanging tough in second at 5:32, then we have:
* Luke Bell (#13) at 6:21
* Chris McCormack (#6) at 6:32
* Cameron Brown (#2) at 6:32
* Eneko Llanos (#121) at 6:36
* Tom Evans (#27) at 6:40
* Faris Al-Sultan (#1) at 6:55

The top men through Hawi
RACETIME: 03:45
Top Bike Hawi Men (Time from start)

Place Bike59 Numb Lname Fname City Pro Cnt
===== ======= ==== ============================= ========== === ===
1 3:13:28 26 Stadler, Normann Mannheim GER
2 3:18:59 18 Lieto, Chris Danville CA USA
3 3:19:39 6 McCormack, Chris Sydney NSW AUS
4 3:19:42 13 Bell, Luke Melbourne VIC AUS
5 3:19:44 2 Brown, Cameron Howick Auc NZL
6 3:19:48 31 Vanhoenacker, Marino Brugge BEL
7 3:19:49 27 Evans, Tom Penticton BC CAN
8 3:19:51 121 Llanos, Eneko Vitoria-Ga ARA ESP
9 3:20:07 1 Al-Sultan, Faris Munich GER
10 3:22:37 4 Beke, Rutger Leuven BEL
11 3:22:44 21 Hellriegel, Thomas Bruchsal GER
12 3:23:19 23 Van Lierde, Luc Brugge BEL
13 3:23:40 48 Chabaud, Francois Salon De P FRA
14 3:23:45 35 Lovato, Michael Boulder CO USA
15 3:23:52 53 Bracht, Timo Eberbach GER GER BC CAN

More of the men's race ... through 70 miles
RACETIME: 03:55
Normann Stadler (#26) continues ot pull away from the rest of the men. Lieto has once again pulled clear of the chase group along with Eneko Llanos.

Then there's a good sized group chasing.

* Chris Lieto (#18) at 7:15
* Eneko Llanos (#121) at 7:15
* Faris Al-Sultan (#1) at 7:30
* Cameron Brown (#2) at 7:30
* Chris McCormack (#6) at 7:30
* Luke Bell (#13) at 7:30
* Marino Vanhoenacker (#31) at 7:30
* Tom Evans (#27) at 7:30

I was not in a press car. From what I witnessed from the 5 different view points, Faris was leading the group. Maybe it was coinincidence, fut he was sitting in the front each time he passed me.

I agree - I really think some of you guys should give Stadler a break and also some credit for leading the race from the front. If he's a little bit outspoken, so what? The guy's two times World Champion and now holds the bike record for Hawaii - posting a 4.18 bike split with a 2.55 marathon off the back - that says enough for me...

He's worked his way up to this level over many years of hard work and now he's reaping the rewards. He lead from the front in both 2004 and 2006 and he would have done the same in 2005 if he hadn't had some bad luck with his wheels. So what he got upset and threw his bike away in 2005 and so what he got upset at IM Germany this year when he fell apart on the run after crashing twice on the bike - that's just the way he is and who is anyone else to judge how he should/shouldn't behave? Get yourselves to same level and then crash out or be forced to retire when defending your title and maybe then you can comment.

I was lucky enough to have dinner with Normann prior to IM Germany this year and he came across as a very genuine and humble guy. He was philisophical about what happened in 2005 but obviously very determined to make ammends this year. Maybe I'm a little biased the other way, but I'm delighted he got his second win and I don't blame him for being a little bit outspoken, especially after all the flack he got pre-race about only being a biker and not being able to run etc. Maybe he's not the 'perfect' champion everyone would like and maybe he has a personality that grates with some people, but at the end of the day he's the one at the top of his sport and I think he should get the respect he deserves for what he's achieved.

What you said.

The guy went off the front and dominated a very strong field in the race they all want to win. He crushed them, they can have no excuses.

He deserves all the applause we can throw his way.

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kiwipat

per ardua ad astra

1. 1 picture of many available at our web showing faris, lieto, macca and co.
http://3athlon.blogspot.com/...

2. my thoughts on maccas historical chance to win kona at his weather conditions (german, sorry) and his aim for going to bejing after winning kona....

http://3athlon.blogspot.com/...

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kind regards
Kai Baumgartner

Guys, Normann won on the day no doubt. Macca is however a fair athlete as his previous results in so many races around the world show him leading the bike and heading into the run in first place. The guy can ride a bike. He out rode Hellriegel in Im OZ 2002 and was only a minute behind Walton. There aren't too many triathletes who can ride like Craig Walton, but Macca's proven in many races he's not too far off him. Also let's consider Roth this year where Faris got off the bike with Keirin Doe and Macca rode solo after his flat and still was within striking distance to pass them both. No drafting there. I think Macca has proven time after time he's good on the bike, and maybe a few people are just envious of his overall results and talent. We'd all like to be as good as him........

It's hard to believe all this talk about Macca "cheating". There were draft marshals following the chase pack the whole way. 7m is the rule.

RUMOR HAS IT, however, that Stadler was cheating - drafting off of german tv crews and other media vehicles. The rule for vehicles is that you are at least 30m back and 15 m to the side. I've seen some photos that appear to show Stadler inside the "draft zone". Perhaps video footage would confirm how long he was in the zone. Whether Stadler had any control of this is another issue - but if you are within the zone, you are drafting. We all know that it is impossible for the tv crews to travel at a cyclists' side for a period of time without technically being within the draft zone since the roadway is less than 15m wide for many parts of the course. Yet the media does this - for almost the entire length of the bike ride. I think race marshals should be looking at enforcing the draft rule when vehicles and motorcycles are present, not just other bikers. The draft off a vehicle is much much greater than another cyclist. Casts some doubt on the record breaking 4:18 ride.

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Hoka One One (Hawaii)
facebook.com/hokaoneonehawaii

Seems to me that unless one geats a penalty, by definition, opinions dont matter, there was no called drafting. As Charlie told me, the rules can be used to ones advantage, just another aspect of the game. If you dont get caught, does not matter what anyone things.

And, pretty sure the rules are written that the racer has to stay a certain distance back behind a car, not that the car is forced to speed up.



Dave

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Amen


Herbert

Casts doubt??? That's one of the dumbest things I've read yet. And I only say that because every year the lead biker will get the same draft from the lead vehicles and camera crews. Normann got it this year, Faris & Sindballe the year before that, Normann the year before that...you get the picture. It's a constant - the vehicles will always be there with the leader, so the leader every year benefits from that draft. It's not like this was the first year that there were vehicles with the leader.

With that logic, tell me again...why does the presence of the vehicle cast doubt on the 4:18 ride??? It's apples to apples, and Norman dominated the bike, on a total level playing field as everyone else who has led the bike every other year. He got the exact same advantage as he got 2 years ago, and as Sindballe got last year...and the end result was that he was faster than any other ride ever. The guy is a kick ass biker, plain and simple.

Amen.

Macca hits back

http://www.chrismccormack.com/...ryDetail.aspx?id=132

"I had no issues with Stadler before ( we were not friends but had a solid rivalry) but I have a real problem with the guy now. His is a “simple” guy and his remarks post race show this. I would like to thank him for giving me the fire and motivation for next season and I look forward to racing him soon."

This whole crap talk reminds me of boxing where one fighter has beaten the other one twice, and after the second loss the loser starts talking about how he's gonna "kick some ass next time".

Why doesn't he just stop talking and focus on winning next year's race? Is he really saying that next year he's going to be "more motivated" than this year? Anyone believe that? Can you really "race angry" for 8 hours? Doesn't he realize he's not going to win a "war of words" with a two-time champ?

IMO, Macca is looking at how close the race was and thinks he can make up the time. He has no idea whether Normann had more left in the tank if was to ever actually see Macca running behind him.

Just seems weird/dumb for a guy that's never won (Kona) to talk smack to a guy that's won 2 in 3 years. Did Macca say anything about beating Faris, because that would be great ... smack talk to the winners of the last 3 Kona winners (who both accuse Macca of drafting illegally).

At what point do they start scratching at each other and throwing pillows?

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-- Every morning brings opportunity;
Each evening offers judgement. --

No...last year Sindballe was in 2nd position for a lot of the ride. Not a lot of cameras following the solo guy in second. IMO, Sindballe's ride was pretty damn good. He probably had the whole entourage (sp?) with him after he passed Faris but not before that point. He did it alone.

Draft zone for vehicles for age groupers is 30m back and 15m to the side. But for pros, the zone is 15m back and 1m to the side. Maybe the 1m side zone is there for camera shots?