if you do go for the powertap you could sell the disk to pay for it and just get a disk cover. Or get it built into a 404 or 808 clincher. Dia_tri has some cool pics of an 808 disk plus a cut to fit cover.

Dan
www.aiatriathlon.com

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http://www.aiatriathlon.com

Pick up "Training and Racing with a Powermeter" by Hunter and Coggan, it has a good discussion on the trade-offs b/w various power meters.

I had a similar decision as you, I have a tri and road bike and race with a disc (Renn 575). I chose the Ergomo to keep the disc and installed it on my tri bike. I may get an extra BB sensor and install on my road bike in the future.

Here is another option. I don't have any experience with it but it sounds pretty promising:

http://www.cyclingnews.com/...06/newarrivals/10-16

You should read Andy Coggan's comments on the iBikepro...

I don't recall having made any specific comments...only expressed some reservations (based on experience with a comparable device) and asked questions about the software works. IOW, people shouldn't read too much into anything I've said, especially since I've never actually used one (although I have touched one).

I love my ergomo. Had a PT and it was ok, but when it started having problems in whether I couldn't take it anymore.

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"...it should be swim, bike, run, cage fight." - el fuser
"I noticed that I am in your sig line! Wow! That's s first for me. Thanks." - Fleck

Another vote for the Ergomo. I've had it for a few months and absolutely love it. Of course, I was upgrading from the Polar power system, so it was quite a step up. I decided against the Powertap because of the need to have a single racing/training wheel, unless you bought a second hub; since I already had a disc, it was an easy decision for me.

No complaints so far.

Indeed...I went back to the specific thread and you had mostly questions...although they were somewhat rethorical

Check out the following link: http://www.peakscoachinggroup.com/freeinfo/Power_Tools.html it provides good info from different power meter devices.

I have a PT pro and like it very much but unfortunately the unit didn’t work at all in 3 rainy races, although a couple of friends used their PT SL at the same races without any trouble. I am currently considering to get an ergomo because I like some of the features it provides like NP, TSS and IF.

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Jorge Martinez
Head Coach - Sports Science
E3 Training Solutions, LLC
@CoachJorgeM

I gotta say that I love my Ergomo, now if only I could figure out a way to remember to charge it before I ride, I seem to forget half the time and the damn thing dies on me... It's a great setup though as I get to use training wheels and then race on a disk or whatever I want. Great if something happens to your back wheel as well as you can just borrow and drop in a spare. BTW, this all goes for a SRM too, it just costs more $$$

Link?

www.pubmed.org ;-)


http://forum.slowtwitch.com/gforum.cgi?do=post_view_flat;post=880766;page=2;sb=post_latest_reply;so=ASC;mh=25;

Any underlying issues with the Ergomo only measuring off of one crank arm? SRM seems to be the best choice on all counts. Just mucho costo!

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Fit matters most. None of that aero sh*$ means beans if you are monkey humping the bike up and down the road… anonymous
51Speed Shop fitter and consultant

As long as there isn't a lot of difference between the two legs, the ergomo is great. I got one and am really happy with it, for a bit more than half the price of the srm pro.

I had to go through the same decision a couple of months ago. I went with the Ergomo just because of the great deal Rich was giving out. I would have went with the PowerTap but I didn't want to be limited in wheel choice in the future. That just plain blows. FWIW- I love my Ergomo, and the CyclingPeaks (Ergoracer) software that comes with it. Make sure you factor in the cost of this software when comparing the Ergomo to the PowerTap. You will definately want it to make the most of your power meter. That and the book of course.

I went for the Ergomo over a PT; one reason was not wanting to have to get new wheels to accommodate the PT. Adding the cost of new wheels to a PT really pushes the price up...

Can't say I have any regrets about the Ergomo, either. So far, seems to be pretty immune to the weather.

I have an Ergomo on my mountain bike, Powertaps on my road and TT bikes and an iBike on my desk. The Ergomo is great as long as you have a trusted powermeter to calibrate it with. I had to reduce the Ergomo K-factor about 15% to match the Powertap numbers.

If you don't have access to a trusted powermeter to calibrate the Ergomo, I'd get the Powertap and a disk cover.

>>>If you don't have access to a trusted powermeter to calibrate the Ergomo<<<

Not sure what you are talking about here because other then installing it correctly and doing the occasional offset (which requires you to spin the crank ~60rpm for abour 30 seconds or so to set the offset) there is no calibration required for an Ergomo.

Ergomos work in the rain, Powertaps have issues in the rain. I just sent Petr Vabrousek his powertap that cut out from working in the rain from Placid. Cyclops finally got it back to us to send to him in time in Kona.

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Jason Goldberg
FIT Multisports

If the power reported by the Ergomo with the factory-supplied K-factor were correct, I'd be winning a lot more races.

I installed it per the instructions, torqued everything carefully, did the offset procedure and got power results that were too high. Why? I don't know. Perhaps my left leg is stronger than my right, but I doubt it. Changing the K-factor fixed the problem.

Google "Ergomo K-factor" and you'll see that it is an issue.

There is no issue with K factors on new units, did yours come with a certificate of authenticity for calibration? If it was not regsitering the correct wattage and you enter your "own" k factor, then i would go back to where I got the unit and get a new one. Entering your own k factor is not the answer... I have seen at least half a dozen shops and people "install correctly" their unit to take a close look and see that it was far from correctly set up which includes having the cables exit the BB at the inccorrect angle and even see the cables on the wrong side of the BB shell.

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Jason Goldberg
FIT Multisports

Let's assume that you're right and that a bunch of people are installing Ergomos incorrectly and that the only symptom is that the power is wrong.

How would I know that unless I checked it against a trusted powermeter?

Other than needing the initial K-factor adjustment, the Ergomo has been working very well. I just returned from a 3-day training camp for the La Ruta race with Hunter Allen. The Ergomo is still ticking after days in the rain, several crashes and a river crossing.

Well that is good- one of the best aspects of the ergomo is to keep on "tickin" in foul weather.

how "off" was your qfactor out of curiosity? I have literally installed or help install over 3 dozen ergomos at R&A Cycles and we never have had that issue with needing to readjust the Qfactor.

The only "issues" that we have had were a couple of faulty CPU heads, but nothing that going into the back and grabbing a different one didnt solve, but I guess that only helps when you have the kind of stock R&A has with Ergomos to be able to do swaps like that!

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Jason Goldberg
FIT Multisports

You don't have to charge yours every ride do you? I can go a week of long rides before I have to charge mine, and I've ridden for hours while it shows me the battery is low.

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Geoff from Indy
http://www.tlcendurance.com

The ergomo was showing power about 15% higher than the PT even after accounting for drivetrain losses. Reducing the K factor by 15% brought them in line.

How do you know that the ergomos you install are recording the correct power? Do you test them against a PT or SRM?

Hello All,

Another vote for Ergomo.

I have had mine for 6 months and it is working great.

I had some inital high watt readings but doing the crank calibration and reset fixed it.

The standard Ergomo computer mounting hardware presents a lot of frontal area.

I took the mount off of mine (one screw on the bottom) and made an aluminum clip that puts it between the aero bars in line with the base bar for a very clean aero mount. The Ergomo computer itself is fairly slim.

The screen I use most shows watts, HR, speed, cadence, and time on ride. The time on ride stops automatically when you stop.

By pushing the buttons you can see a lot of other data, averages, altitude climbed, etc.

It is easy to do intervals (with results on Ergomo) or you can just view a segment of the ride on your WKO+ software on your PC.

A lite version of WKO+ software comes with the Ergomo; I elected to buy the upgrade.

Battery life seems dependent on how many data points you record per second.

Fewer data points and the battery may last for several rides but the data will not be as smooth.

http://www.cyclingpeakssoftware.com/

http://www.cruciblefitness.com/...orum.asp?FORUM_ID=19

http://www.ergomo.net/index.php?artikel=14



Cheers,

Neal

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Cheers, Neal

+1 mph Faster

We have tested units against both PTs and SRMs to show that they are functioning properly. Of the units that we have installed, we have not seen any of the issues that you have had. We have also done a variety of lab and field tests with units and have had no major issues present either other then the 1 or 2 faulty cpu heads which were easily replaced.

I personally had 2 bikes with Ergomos and a PT that I could swap between both and have had no issues with the ergomos working properly.

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Jason Goldberg
FIT Multisports

Did you change your recordings per second?

How many hours can you ride without recharging?

Mine is set to the default settings and I can ride about 6 hours I think (thats 3 x 2 hour rides with downloads). I have not done any long rides to see how long the computer lasts. Once I see "low" I think I have about 1:15-1:30 until shutdown.

Dave

Thanks to all for your replies. It seems the prevailing concensus is towards Ergomo. I must admit, before now, I had only heard good things about the PT's, but it seems there are much more reliability issues than I had previously thought. (Being in Southern Louisiana, riding in the rain is the rule, not the exception, so this is a big negative in my opinion for PTs).

However, the apparent issues with the accuracy problems of the Ergomo does concern me a bit, since I'll be installing it myself and have no way of calibrating it. Also, with two bikes, I may be changing it out [somewhat] frequently (until I can afford a second BB). How much of an issue will this be? Will it need to be "recalibrated" every time, and, if so, how?

Thanks again for the responses!

Ergomo says that after the initial break-in you don't have to do the calibration(sorry, Offset) very often. I do mine about 2x per week. It only takes about 30 seconds and is simple to do, so why not be sure.

The Ergomo requires a long slow trickle charge. After charging overnight I can usually go about a week before it needs a recharge. Occasionally, if a long ride is planned I will charge it the night before the long ride(maybe just short of the full week, just to be sure). If you don't do the long charge the battery seems to fade much quicker. Try charging overnight.

The procedure to which you refer just assures that zero power is sensed as zero power. That's not the same as actually calibrating the device, which if you're a consumer can really only be done 1) by comparison to another powermeter of known accuracy followed by 2) adjustment of the response ('k factor') if necessary.

Since you apparently have access to another powermeter, you could rule out an imbalance between legs by comparing the two while pedaling with just your left leg. The power registered by the Ergomo should be twice that of the other device.

Since you've already apparently solved the problem by adjusting the k factor, the above may not be really necessary - however, I still thought I'd share the idea.

According to Hunter, the angle at which the cables exit the b.b. has no impact on the accuracy of the measurements.

If the cables are on the wrong side of the bottom bracket shell, then you've got bigger problems than just inaccurate data: you've cross-threaded the left side, right hand threads into the right side, left hand threads (and vice-versa), and you're frame is likely toast.

>>If the cables are on the wrong side of the bottom bracket shell, then you've got bigger problems than just inaccurate data: you've cross-threaded the left side, right hand threads into the right side, left hand threads (and vice-versa), and you're frame is likely toast. <<

that is why i found that so funny, because the dude who had it that way was like "the mechanic at my shop is soooo good and he did a great job at building my bike".... I said, ya sure he did ;-)

Hunter may have said that the angles that the cables come of of the BB has no impact on accuracy, but Matthias who owns ergomo says that there is an impact (as do the guys at Gita). I rather install them to spec and not worry about stuff like that.

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Jason Goldberg
FIT Multisports

Not to hijack this thread here, but since you're talking about accuracy problems with Ergomo, can anyone tell me what's wrong with mine?

I'm on my second Ergomo (the first one I had damaged the wire exiting the BB - it was under warranty and it was replaced free of charge) I installed the Ergomo myself both times. For the first one, everything was fine and I found it extremely helpful in training for and racing Lake Placid. Since the race, I needed to replace it with a new Ergomo. I was very careful to use the correct torque when installing it. The exiting wires are within the correct angles and my K factor is properly entered, yet my watts are 15-20% lower for the same level of exertion and effort. (I haven't gotten weaker based on riding the same gears on the trainer for my intervals and climbing the same hills ) I haven't calibrated it to another powermeter (yet) but what am I missing here? I've done a number of offset tests, always coming to about the same offset value each time. Changing the K factor just doesn't seem right, does it? I mean, they decided on that value for a reason, no? Any thoughts here? There's nothing worse than seeing your watts that much lower for no reason!

Hello All,

I have noticed that if I leave my Ergomo computer plugged in on my bike it will run down the battery.

I leave it unplugged now between rides.

I should note that Ergomo Germany responded to my eMail questions quickly as did Gita bike the US distributor.

The original issue cables for hooking up the Ergomo to your PC were unreliable and Ergomo (Gita) replaced them at no charge. Now they work fine.

Also (recently) Gita will issue a no charge cable extension and software so you can plug your Ergomo into a USB port rather than only a serial port on your PC.

Cheers,

Neal

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Cheers, Neal

+1 mph Faster

SRM!

Yeah, SRM might be better, but you can get an Ergomo CPU, two Ergomo BB's and two cranks for less than a SRM professional+cyclingpeaks (remember Ergomo comes with cp). And use whatever wheels you want on either bike.

Get an Ergomo if you can live with their inaccuracy:

http://www.cyclingforums.com/...702&postcount=37

Yes, that experience is typical.

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Recreational racer slaying blog:

http://rrslayer.blogspot.com

Ad blocking filters for cycling websites:

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I doubt that is typical. Mine is ballpark accurate given expected Crr and CdA and chain loss, so I'd say he had a defective unit, poor installation or bad calibration. The only significant complaints that I have seen is that the Ergomos apparently run 10-15W higher than an SRM mounted to the same bike. Since this is a constant number, it's not likely to be a major issue, and definitely isn't if you put out a lot of watts at FTP. Reading slightly higher than a PT on the same bike is to be expected, since you are talking about small chain losses, etc. But this is at most 3-5% even for a really dirty chain.

I've had zero issues with my Ergomo, but have noted also that it discharges quite a bit just sitting there plugged in. I haven't tried leaving it unplugged and on the bike, but I'll have to start doing that. The battery life during a ride is okay, but it sucks to come back to what I thought was a fully charged computer and find it at the halfway point!

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I have it set to TWO seconds, so I'm collecting less data, but I guess that allows me to ride longer before having to download but I wouldn't think that would effect battery life.

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Geoff from Indy
http://www.tlcendurance.com

I'm thinking of getting an Ergomo for 2007 but was curious about something. When referring to the wires, how and where to they exit the BB? Do you have to drill out the BB? I couldn't find a picture on the web and haven't seen one in person yet. Does the SRM have wires as well? I thought I read somewhere that they came out with a wireless model

Jason, you're located just north of Westchester, correct? If so, could you PM me with what you would charge to install the Ergomo on my bike? Thanks.

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I proudly DO NOT post my workouts on Facebook!!!

Jason,

I talked to Nelson Frazier, Gita tech support guy, at Interbike. He spent about 30' with me and a cutaway Ergomo. He said the wires should be as close to 9pm a possible in order to protect the circuit board. Let's see if I can explain this...

The wires connect to a circuit board. Think of a rectangle, with length and width. The length runs through the long axis off the BB. So when the wires are at 9pm the board's orientation is with the "width" of the rectangle oriented in the vertical plane. The board is then much less likely to flex with that orientation...hope I haven't confused anyone :-)

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Rich Strauss
Endurance Nation Ironman 2013 and 2014 World Champion TriClub, Div I
Create a FREE 7-day trial membership

All,

I'm learning that installation of the Ergomo is critical. To be brief, your LBS needs to:

Tap the BB shell threads
Face the BB shell
Back out the cable guide screw
Grease the Ergomo BB
Wires as close to 9pm as possible
Install to the proper torque, with an _actual_ torque wrench, right and left.

If you tell this to your LBS and you get a blank stare...you have your answer.

If the installation is done improperly it will either:
1. Be obviously wrong, right away.
2. It may work for a while and then go out of spec after a while.

What you've done is placed a strange twist or cant to the BB which may cause the unit to fail. No worries, covered under the warranty but it helps to do it right the first time. So you need to hand the BB to the LBS with very clear instructions that this is NOT their typical BB. They need to be very precise when installing what is a precision instrument.

When installed correctly, it's largely bulletproof. The issues I've seen have been overwhelmingly a result of poor installation by the owner or LBS...that and just not reading the manual, which could be better I admit :-)

Gita is working on a clear and concise installation doc and I'm working on my own to be completed early next week if they get side-tracked.

---------------

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Rich Strauss
Endurance Nation Ironman 2013 and 2014 World Champion TriClub, Div I
Create a FREE 7-day trial membership

Thought I would add some thoughts since I have just gone through the process of adding an ergomo.

First, do the work yourself. It is very easy. You don't need any special tools. The Ergomo comes with everything you need. If you need something special to get your old cranks off then have a bike shop do it. No sense in buying any special tools, but do the install yourself. If my dumb ass can do it, so can you :).

Wires. I think wires are good. I went through a couple of wireless bike computers over the last few years. I love the look (no wires), but the reliability left a lot to be desired. I don't want to have to worry about my pm working on race day. The wires on the Ergomo exit or are attached in a very nice manner to the bb. I ran mine up the bottom tube and used some clear transparent duct tape to secure / hide it. The tape runs the entire length of the bottom tube and only shows slightly (about 1/2 inch) on each side. It is barely noticable. I like reliability so maybe I am a bit biased. Having batteries die in the sensors really sucked. That and the wireless stuff justdidn't work when it was cold, wet, or especially in both.

I think Their is a wireless PowerTap available now. All the other have wires. I am not sure I would go there though. I would want to see a year or two of reviews before I put down the money. I think Rich has said that having wires is sinply the "cost of doing business" with a power meter. I wish it wasn't, but it's just the way it is.

Good luck!

TJ,

See my notes above. No worries, I did the install on my Cervelo myself, didn't case or tap, used my calibrated motorcycle-wrench's forearm for the torque and it's worked fine since Feb.

My recommendation now is to take it to an LBS but if you get that blank stare...run. I've got ONE guy out here who does all my local installs. Adult, part owner, and he takes care of me.

----------------------

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Rich Strauss
Endurance Nation Ironman 2013 and 2014 World Champion TriClub, Div I
Create a FREE 7-day trial membership

I didn't case or tap either, but at least it is working :) . Should I be worried about anything at this point? I did grease the bottom bracket just the same as I wouild any other one I was installing.

What does the case and tap really do that make it essential? Or are these simply a best practice type of thing?

The Sergio rides Ergomo...

'nuff said

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<If you're gonna be dumb, you gotta be tough>
Get Fitter!
Proud member of the Smartasscrew, MONSTER CLUB
Get your FIX today?

Chase the threads, sorry.

Chasing the threads cleans them up. Facing the BB shell insures that the right and left sides of the BB shell face are parallel.

These combine to ensure that the torque is evenly distributed throughout the BB, with no weirdness. I've got pictures of the cutaway and will write a post on the Ergomo forum explaining how it all works. All of this becomes very clear when you see pics of the inside.

get an Ergo...just do it...the power tap will be a bigger chronic hassle than your first wife...listen to and buy it from Strauss...peace out

So chasing the threads is probably not a big deal in my case. I did clean it out and the unit went on just fine. I assume the worry here is in stripping the threads or it not threading correctly. Is this right?

Facing seems to be important, but isn't this something that should be done before the bike leaves the factory? Do bottom brackets get out of parallel? Is this more critical on older bikes than newer bikes? I am hoping my new Blade is the exception here as I really don't want to have to worry about the install in the future.

I have been running a powertap pro for a few years, my wife has had an SL for the past year. I would say I average about one unit return per year, and I am carefull with maintenance. I previously reported in another thread that my powertap unit is out of action and back at cycleops after one wet ride. My wife's SL stopped working less than a month after purchase and had to go back to be fixed under warranty work. Some powertaps work just fine in the rain, but the number of problems people experience show that they have some real sealing QC issues.

For me, if I was buying a meter I would get the ergomo and make sure I went through all the processes that Rich talks about.

Fortunately I took money for buying an Ergomo and put it towards a mountain bike. Lots more fun!

Kevin

You don't consider the tools needed to chase the threads and face the b.b. "special"? I've been doing all of my own wrenching for >30 y, and still don't own such things. (After getting charged $50 to install a headset, I did finally break down and buy a headset press, figuring that it would eventually pay for itself...then the world went to integrated headsets, of course.)

I certainly would, but I was probably replying to the original post at the same time Rich was. At the time I got my Ergomo, nobody thought these steps were necessary.

I am still hoping these steps don't really matter....or at least in my case :).

Yeah, I certainly see the point of going to the LBS now. Of course that doesn't guarentee it will get done right the first time either.

You actually paid $50 to have a headset installed? Did it come with a free headset?

Wow...

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<If you're gonna be dumb, you gotta be tough>
Get Fitter!
Proud member of the Smartasscrew, MONSTER CLUB
Get your FIX today?

So does Bjorn, Jonas and Clas for 07!

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Jason Goldberg
FIT Multisports

That's my recollection of what they charged me, yes. Of course, considering that at the time I had to drive ~50 mi just to get to any bike shop, much less one that I'd trust to work on my then-brand-new Hooker, I really didn't have much choice.

Yes, that all should be done and the shop will tell you it has and shouldn't need to be done. If so, have them VERIFY it has been done/doesn't need to be done.

My point is that you need to tell Billy to put down the bong, take the tie tack out of his tongue, pick up a torque wrench and apply some attention to detail to the install. This is not your father's BB. As you may notice, I have a very low opinion of bike wrenching, no offense to the quality wrenches on the forum :-)

Dick

Get an Ergomo and buy it from Rich (support those who support this forum... plus, his price is as good or better than anywhere).

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