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Re: How trainable is vo2 max? [abrown] [ In reply to ]
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abrown wrote:
UVA has a triathlon squad. They swim with the club swim team, ride with the cycling team, and run with the club xc team. I'm planning on being on the tri squad, I'm nowhere near good enough to swim or run for UVA. There is a strong multisport community in Charlottesville - there's a few pros, and UVA actually had the collegiate national champ a few years ago!! I'm pretty excited - the pool is gorgeous, and mountain rides are ten miles away!!

Ya, you'd prob need to be swimming 16:30 or better for the 1650 just to practice with the distance group at a big school like UVA. Sounds like the tri squad has a good program figured out though.

Have you decided on which field of engr you want to pursue??? I'm a civil/environmental P.E. myself:)


"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."
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Re: How trainable is vo2 max? [pedalbiker] [ In reply to ]
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pedalbiker wrote:
abrown wrote:
Planning on it. I've been warned about burnout, but I read the old Scott Molina articles on here and in one he said that burnout in kids is "more of a mental lack of desire to do the work necessary to be the best". I also read the Sutton article about training a lot at a young age. Neither sees a problem with it other than kids being soft these days. I don't know how good I can be, but right now I'm improving rapidly, and although there are plenty of days when I don't want to get up at 4:15 to swim before school (still a senior in HS), most of the time I feel worse when I don't get up than when I do.

Plus, some of my best friends are swimmers and runners, so I can combine training and hanging out with friends. For me, that's a can't-lose situation!


As someone that started racing bikes at 17 and quit completely at 23 I can attest to the burnout. I don't think it has a lot to do with motivation to get work done as it has to do with being completely enveloped with a singular aspect of sport at such a dynamic time in your life. I was a Cat 1 by 20 and completely devoted to trying to make it as a pro. But I quit completely at 23 after a disappointing summer in Europe and an even more disappointing crit nationals.

High level training in high school and college can be very, very tough. You make a lot of sacrifices that can really start sapping your motivation, especially if you start plateauing a bit and the results aren't coming the way you expect them, too. Even being on teams and hanging out with your teammates gets very old and you realize that there's a whole world out there that you're completely oblivious to.

I was traveling around every single weekend, sleeping on hotel room floors with 6-7 other dudes. Crammed into vehicles for 8+ hours at a time just to try to get to the next big race where I'd try to get primes and prize money just to cover gas. A couple of seasons of that and it starts getting old.

I would make it a top priority to NOT let your life completely revolve around triathlon or cycling or swimming or whatever. High school and college offer a lot of opportunities that you may well not get later on. That's not to say you shouldn't have a big focus, but that you shoyuld be cognizant of such opportunities and not spend every waking moment weighing the opportunity cost of a new experience versus hitting your next workout (which is something I constantly did). Almost every one of the guys I came up through the ranks with who were in cycling as heavily as I wash moved on after college (two that didn't are on or were on protour teams).

Too true but if there's a chance - even a skinny one - to 'make it' you MUST have a crack. Much better to have tried and failed than live for the rest of you life wondering. If you're motivated, love the sport (whatever that may be) and have a sniff of getting up there, don't die wondering.
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Re: How trainable is vo2 max? [ericmulk] [ In reply to ]
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I'm a looong way off 16:30. I'm shooting for 20:00 by late spring/early summer, which will be good enough for me to find feet and not lose in the swim, since I am a strong cyclist and top-10 overall run split typically.

As far as which field, at this point I'm shooting for mechanical engineering with a focus in materials science. I've done a 2yr research project in aerodynamics of cycling helmets (even had one of the Specialized guys as a consultant!!!! Dream come true) so I think that's the direction I want to go!!!

"Don't you have to go be stupid somewhere else?"..."Not until 4!"
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Re: How trainable is vo2 max? [pedalbiker] [ In reply to ]
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pedalbiker wrote:
abrown wrote:
Planning on it. I've been warned about burnout, but I read the old Scott Molina articles on here and in one he said that burnout in kids is "more of a mental lack of desire to do the work necessary to be the best". I also read the Sutton article about training a lot at a young age. Neither sees a problem with it other than kids being soft these days. I don't know how good I can be, but right now I'm improving rapidly, and although there are plenty of days when I don't want to get up at 4:15 to swim before school (still a senior in HS), most of the time I feel worse when I don't get up than when I do. Plus, some of my best friends are swimmers and runners, so I can combine training and hanging out with friends. For me, that's a can't-lose situation!


As someone that started racing bikes at 17 and quit completely at 23 I can attest to the burnout. I don't think it has a lot to do with motivation to get work done as it has to do with being completely enveloped with a singular aspect of sport at such a dynamic time in your life. I was a Cat 1 by 20 and completely devoted to trying to make it as a pro. But I quit completely at 23 after a disappointing summer in Europe and an even more disappointing crit nationals.
High level training in high school and college can be very, very tough. You make a lot of sacrifices that can really start sapping your motivation, especially if you start plateauing a bit and the results aren't coming the way you expect them, too. Even being on teams and hanging out with your teammates gets very old and you realize that there's a whole world out there that you're completely oblivious to.
I was traveling around every single weekend, sleeping on hotel room floors with 6-7 other dudes. Crammed into vehicles for 8+ hours at a time just to try to get to the next big race where I'd try to get primes and prize money just to cover gas. A couple of seasons of that and it starts getting old.

I would make it a top priority to NOT let your life completely revolve around triathlon or cycling or swimming or whatever. High school and college offer a lot of opportunities that you may well not get later on. That's not to say you shouldn't have a big focus, but that you should be cognizant of such opportunities and not spend every waking moment weighing the opportunity cost of a new experience versus hitting your next workout (which is something I constantly did). Almost every one of the guys I came up through the ranks with who were in cycling as heavily as I wash moved on after college (two that didn't are on or were on pro tour teams).

By training a lot and studying engineering, A. Brown will prob miss out on some killer parties, but it sounds like he is OK with that. I'm not aware of any "opportunities" that are unique to HS/college, since you can always go back to school at any age. OTOH, you are only 18-29 once so you have to do those things like sport at a high level, or joining the military, that can only be done before age 30. My $0.02:)


"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."
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Re: How trainable is vo2 max? [lschmidt] [ In reply to ]
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I didn't read the other comments so it may have been said.

Vo2 max and all aerobic values are controlled mostly by body wt.

If a 20% body fat athlete does a test ( this is somene that training regularly already) trains 3 months without losing a lbs they will have little change.

Same person trains less but loses 5% body fat they will increase there vo2. So that's the biggest problem with it.

Second question. Steady improvement in times is because you are becoming more aerobicly effient and are moving your ability at low end intensity closer to your vo2 max but not moving your vo2 max.


Lance had a very high vo2 max and was an hour behind nyc marathon winner so we can say its part of the equation but not the sole answer .


.

Technique will always last longer then energy production. Improve biomechanics, improve performance.
http://Www.anthonytoth.ca, triathletetoth@twitter
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Re: How trainable is vo2 max? [Triathletetoth] [ In reply to ]
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Triathletetoth wrote:
I didn't read the other comments so it may have been said.


.

Then it will really be worth your while to read them as you are laboring under at least one very significant misunderstanding.





Hugh

Genetics load the gun, lifestyle pulls the trigger.
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Re: How trainable is vo2 max? [ericmulk] [ In reply to ]
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ericmulk wrote:

By training a lot and studying engineering, A. Brown will prob miss out on some killer parties, but it sounds like he is OK with that. I'm not aware of any "opportunities" that are unique to HS/college, since you can always go back to school at any age. OTOH, you are only 18-29 once so you have to do those things like sport at a high level, or joining the military, that can only be done before age 30. My $0.02:)

You have your whole life to do sport. And probably do it better than what you can do with limited money/resources, etc. I'm faster now in my 30s than I was in my 20s. And I have money to go race and buy the things I need to do. And it's way, way more enjoyable.

Anyway, he'll do what he wants. I simply wouldn't write burnout off and trump it up to one's mental faculties or motivation. And I wouldn't devote my life to sport in a vain attempt at going pro or something. If you're not national level by 20 or 21 then the probability of doing anything further at the elite level is likely just a pipe dream (at least in cycling). But it sounds like he's good to go in that regard and is going after a good program of study, so I wish him all the best.
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Re: How trainable is vo2 max? [Triathletetoth] [ In reply to ]
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Triathletetoth wrote:

Lance had a very high vo2 max and was an hour behind nyc marathon winner so we can say its part of the equation but not the sole answer .
.

Because he trained for like, a week for that race? And he's a cyclist?
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Re: How trainable is vo2 max? [pedalbiker] [ In reply to ]
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that's my point Vo2 is useless. It's about how you train your mechanical efficiency. I love slowtwits people agree in different terms to sound correct. And every topic goes sideways so people can be right rather then get it right.

And I guess you don't know much about lances nyc marathons. That he trained for over one year after me bombed the first year. Not to mention he comes from a triathlete background and was a good runners.

Technique will always last longer then energy production. Improve biomechanics, improve performance.
http://Www.anthonytoth.ca, triathletetoth@twitter
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Re: How trainable is vo2 max? [Triathletetoth] [ In reply to ]
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Triathletetoth wrote:
Vo2 is useless.

Having an adequately high VO2max is a necessary but not a sufficient conditions for elite endurance athletic performance (or for that matter, a normal, healthy life...but the standard for what is "adequately high" is lower in that context).
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Re: How trainable is vo2 max? [Andrew Coggan] [ In reply to ]
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Andrew Coggan wrote:
Triathletetoth wrote:
Vo2 is useless.


Having an adequately high VO2max is a necessary but not a sufficient conditions for elite endurance athletic performance (or for that matter, a normal, healthy life...but the standard for what is "adequately high" is lower in that context).


This, I have a V02 max of ~73, tested at K-State twice *first was 74 second was like 72.4 so I just averaged* And I am nowhere near the elite level. My max HR at 27 is 186, and I'm sure there are many other variables that coincide with my performance being "middle pack" and that goes for when I raced triathlons, and currently for Cyclocross and bike racing.

had a 20K TT race today, ended up doing it in 32:36, FTP of 305 watts at 161 lbs averaging 23.1 mph. Granted I was using a road bike and had literally no TT/aero gear, it's definitely not what you'd suspect from someone who has a 70+ v02 max.
Last edited by: PatrickOfSteele: Mar 7, 15 18:31
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Re: How trainable is vo2 max? [Triathletetoth] [ In reply to ]
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Triathletetoth wrote:
that's my point Vo2 is useless. It's about how you train your mechanical efficiency. I love slowtwits people agree in different terms to sound correct. And every topic goes sideways so people can be right rather then get it right.

And I guess you don't know much about lances nyc marathons. That he trained for over one year after me bombed the first year. Not to mention he comes from a triathlete background and was a good runners.

Actually, no. I'm not agreeing with you. Lance ran a 3 hour marathon on, by his own admission, virtually no training at all. That's not to say his vo2 max is directly responsible, but it is to say he's an absolute freak of nature.

You're insinuating that his vo2 max didn't help him run fast. I'm saying that it, along with his other-worldly athletic abilities helped him run it much, much faster than 99% of people could with similarly low/no training.
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Re: How trainable is vo2 max? [pedalbiker] [ In reply to ]
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pedalbiker wrote:
ericmulk wrote:

By training a lot and studying engineering, A. Brown will prob miss out on some killer parties, but it sounds like he is OK with that. I'm not aware of any "opportunities" that are unique to HS/college, since you can always go back to school at any age. OTOH, you are only 18-29 once so you have to do those things like sport at a high level, or joining the military, that can only be done before age 30. My $0.02:)

You have your whole life to do sport. And probably do it better than what you can do with limited money/resources, etc. I'm faster now in my 30s than I was in my 20s. And I have money to go race and buy the things I need to do. And it's way, way more enjoyable.
Anyway, he'll do what he wants. I simply wouldn't write burnout off and trump it up to one's mental faculties or motivation. And I wouldn't devote my life to sport in a vain attempt at going pro or something. If you're not national level by 20 or 21 then the probability of doing anything further at the elite level is likely just a pipe dream (at least in cycling). But it sounds like he's good to go in that regard and is going after a good program of study, so I wish him all the best.


All i'm saying, and a couple of other posters too, is that, since A. Brown is only 17, he should do whatever his heart moves him. I know you're a cyclist but possibly you can relate to an example from swimming: Jason Lezak was 32, almost 33, when he anchored the 4 x 100 m free relay in the 2008 oly games which won the gold medal by 0.08 sec, i.e. in less than the blink of an eye. He swam the fastest 100 m split in history that day in Aug '08, and that 46.06 split is still the fastest 100 LCM ever swum. He only swam 47.67 to tie for bronze in the 100 m free individual event, so clearly he reserved his very best effort for that relay.

Lezak was indeed swimming at the national level in HS and college but never made his first oly team until 2000 when he was 24, swam in his 2nd oly in 2004, and won relay medals in both '00 and '04. He could have easily retired when he turned 30, which has always been considered pretty ancient for swimmers. Had Jason done the "smart thing" and gone into some more lucrative career at age 30, then Phelps prob would not have won his 8 medals, since he only managed that feat due to Lezak's Herculean effort that day. So, Lezak continuing to pursue his dream more or less altered the course of swimming history. Interpret this however you like:)


"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."
Last edited by: ericmulk: Mar 7, 15 20:23
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