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Trek Speed Concept Aerodynamics
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Anyone out there with an engineering degree who could shed some opinions or data on this Kamm Tail concept. I have heard from one of the biggest names in bicycle aerodynamics that the Kamm concept is all marketing hype and the wrong way to go. The sharp trailing edges are super bad and the proof is in motorsports were the Kamm has been long dead for a reason (just watch F1, etc.) NACA shapes do not apply well to bikes due to the speed an airplane travels (makes sense). Bikes have the most in common with sail boasts due to the low speeds they are travelling at (makes sense). The Toyota Prius is a Kamm Tail and due to the electric engine only coming on at low speeds, the aerodynamics probably account for most of the gas savings (but are the benfits due to the Kamm tail?). So, is this cutting edge or cutting edge hype?

For example, take the big C brand. C's entire marketing plan in the early 2000s was based on the wheel cut out and getting the tire close as possible. I always laughed at the aero marketing at the time because my LOOK KG196 already incorporated many of the current design ideas and it was a decade old. Data over the last 8 years basically proved this concept bad due to the airflow generated off the tires. From my background, the thinking in Europe is stiffer the better regardless of data, so maybe it was a trade off between aero and stiffness. The Kamm shape should definitely be stiff.

Thoughts?
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Re: Trek Speed Concept Aerodynamics [eki1] [ In reply to ]
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Without the 3:1 aspect ratio limitations it might not be the ultimate choice. Structurally you save a lot of weight losing the narrow tail. I though NACA profiles were all sorts, with appropriate speed ranges? Long time since I read the blurb that came with my Specialized Trispokes (aka HED3) but IIRC that said they were based on NACA profiles, and seem to have withstood the test of time (and wind tunnel).
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Re: Trek Speed Concept Aerodynamics [eki1] [ In reply to ]
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The kamm tail is definitely not optimal for drag reduction alone, but it might be a good solution for a bike frame trying to meet UCI frame and tube proportion restrictions. But my guess is that for low speed objects, kamm tail or not, is the execution of the kamm tail that really determines whether or not it would work for a bike. Good design and it might work. Bad design and it won't work. I haven't seen any hard numbers for the new trek and, even when they are released, if the frame does well, it will be very difficult to determine what is due to the tube shapes vs. what is due the hidden front and rear brakes, fully hidden cables, faired stem, etc.

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Last edited by: Dark: Feb 9, 11 12:38
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Re: Trek Speed Concept Aerodynamics [eki1] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
A Data over the last 8 years basically proved this concept bad due to the airflow generated off the tires.

no it hasn't

In Reply To:
From my background, the thinking in Europe is stiffer the better regardless of data, so maybe it was a trade off between aero and stiffness. The Kamm shape should definitely be stiff.

Thoughts?

I think its kind of insane to talk about data proving something, then discuss about preference regardless of the data.

When people say "damn the data" they are morons

or geniuses who know the data is incomplete or wrong

snap

what to do what to do!



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Re: Trek Speed Concept Aerodynamics [jackmott] [ In reply to ]
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i love the data as much as the next trigeek, but you really have to look at the limitations of the study.

just b/c someone publishes data from the wind tunnel saying this and this, you have to look at the other factors.

aero helmets are the thing that jumps to my mind first. the yaw angles tested in the tunnel imo dont represent the actual experienced by age group riders or even ironman pros.

giro has been doing some better testing including these confounding factors and hence reduced the tail size of their upcoming helmets.

even if it isnt great, its all we have and its more often than not better than guessing.
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Re: Trek Speed Concept Aerodynamics [jackmott] [ In reply to ]
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Look KG 496:



Look KG 196:



Not my bikes, but thought I would share. Look was obviously doing a lot of stuff from c. 1993 that manufacturers are still redisgning now.

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