Re: Strange emotions of divorce [mv2005] [ In reply to ]

Mar 5, 15 7:22

Post #76 of 126 (3280 views)

It's your situation and only you and your wife know the full details. I don't think anyone here is questioning your ethics either.

You just have to decide what you want and call it what it is. Name it. If you want the marriage to work, call it that and work toward it. If you want to ease the way into divorce on more friendly terms, that's what it is also. Only the two of you know what's best for you.

It's just that for it to go well either way it's necessary to be completely transparent about what it is. If you want to reconcile the relationship, which sounds better?:

You're my wife. I love you and know times are rough right now, but I'd like to take you out and spend time with you. Want to go dancing? OR
I was going to go dancing and it's awkward to take this dancing class and be partnered with a stranger. Want to come with me?

One gives the appearance that you're pursuing her and want to fight for the relationship. The other gives the appearance that she's filling a spot of convenience for you; it sounds needy, almost clingy, a bookmark to hold a place until something better is available.

This applies to every scenario you've noted, both here on the public forum and in our IMs. One of these starts to put you on a solid foundation to rebuild from; the other isn't building on anything and is just making the already shaky ground even more shaky. One builds trust, the other builds confusion and distrust. Believe me, neglect builds as much distrust as deceit, because it's hard to trust someone when you're not sure that they'll be there for you. That was my biggest downfall.

It may be weird with this being strangers in internetland, but I'm rooting for you. Not only have I been there and know how painful and hard it is to go through this, but I know what it's like to come out on the other side with a relationship healing and working out. It also pains me every time I hear about a marriage ending, especially when kids are involved. Like I said, it doesn't have to be this way. "Your move, chief." (Had to throw a Good Will Hunting quote in somewhere for good measure.)

Re: Strange emotions of divorce [chriskal] [ In reply to ]

Mar 5, 15 7:46

Post #77 of 126 (3271 views)

chriskal wrote:

What was the purpose in living three houses down for the last 17 months? That is an incredibly long time to live in marital limbo.

Initially to give her some space and the kids some relief from the bickering.

After that there was the fear of her taking off to Canada with kids in tow. Then there was just a very long procession of building momentum then giving up.

Agree with the rest.

Re: Strange emotions of divorce [MidwestRoadie] [ In reply to ]

Mar 5, 15 7:48

Post #78 of 126 (3270 views)

It doesn't have to be in code. How about something like:

Wife, I've been giving our situation a lot of thought. I have come to realize how much I care about you and our family. I really want to start dating with the intent of getting back together and being a family again. Would that be unwelcome? What other steps should we take to work on our marriage while we do this?

You don't have to give me all of your answers now, but I'd love to take you dancing. When I ask you, this is where I am coming from.

Re: Strange emotions of divorce [katcycles] [ In reply to ]

Mar 5, 15 8:06

Post #79 of 126 (3258 views)

How about just growing a sac and making a decision.

Re: Strange emotions of divorce [mv2005] [ In reply to ]

Mar 5, 15 8:08

Post #80 of 126 (3256 views)

Quote:

What is BS is being accused of being some sort of deceitful, cheating husband by someone who does not know the complete situation.

In all seriousness, you laid out a specifically deceitful plan to try to get your "last chance." I'm not sure how you can call it BS when someone accuses you of deceit.

There is no good relationship in the history of relationships that was based on deceit.

Unfortunately, as is the case with most people, it seems like what you really wanted from this thread was affirmation of the plan you already had in mind. That's fine, but you might take note of the fact that you didn't get that affirmation from anyone. Maybe that's not because everyone else is wrong, but maybe because you're too close to the problem to see how ridiculous your proposed plan sounds.

Good luck.

Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)

Re: Strange emotions of divorce [katcycles] [ In reply to ]

Mar 5, 15 8:12

Post #81 of 126 (3247 views)

Much better and much more honest. That at least states your intentions and lets her know exactly what your motivation is and where you're coming from. I think you need to find out what she needs from you, not for your marriage but for her individually.

But, know this, if you go there it must be 100000%. You cannot deviate. It will be hard as hell, the hardest thing you've ever done. But it can work out. As someone else said, the only way out is through. Been there, done that. It gets easier, and when it does it's really incredible. And then it gets a little more difficult, then better, but just keep moving away from that low place you're in now and even when it's difficult you'll still be in a better place than you are.

katcycles wrote:

It doesn't have to be in code. How about something like:

Wife, I've been giving our situation a lot of thought. I have come to realize how much I care about you and our family. I really want to start dating with the intent of getting back together and being a family again. Would that be unwelcome? What other steps should we take to work on our marriage while we do this?

You don't have to give me all of your answers now, but I'd love to take you dancing. When I ask you, this is where I am coming from.

Re: Strange emotions of divorce [mv2005] [ In reply to ]

Mar 5, 15 9:51

Post #82 of 126 (3207 views)

That's a lengthy story!

I am now divorced. I had 4 years of marriage counseling prior to it. Yep- 4 years. I learned a lot, mainly about myself and how I got into the marriage. What I learned was, I didn't ask the right questions when I first married. I knew that if I did, and if I really absorbed the answers, marriage would not have been the right decision.

You can both get back together, but it is not an easy road and you both have to want to.

You can also move on and find someone new.

For now, I would suggest deciding if you met someone new, what would you tell them you wanted from marriage? What role could you successfully fill in the marriage? What role would your future spouse fill?

Then, have this same conversation with your wife and see if you line up. If you don't, you better think hard about your road ahead.

For the kids, I would suggest splitting with the wife- the mixed signals are confusing for them too. I set days the wife would have the kids and days I would be with the kids. Wether you like it or not, your wife can stay out all night the days you have the kids, just like it will be if you divorce. You can do the same. The kids don't need to know what the other parent is doing on their night off.

Good luck!

Re: Strange emotions of divorce [mv2005] [ In reply to ]

Mar 5, 15 10:38

Post #83 of 126 (3186 views)

I was being harsh for a reason. You aren't being honest. You are trying to manipulate your way back into the marriage by lying and setting up tests to see if she passes.

You have 3 divorced people actively telling you that dishonesty is going to ruin any chances you have. Based on what I know of slowguy's and katcycle's divorces, I'd say the 3 of us are experts on being lied to and manipulated. It was the lies that hurt me the most, not the actions. That's what will destroy your marriage, not where you are living currently.

Right now you have the benefit of the advice of people who have: 1. Saved their marriage by really hard work. 2. People who's marriage have been solid for years. 3. People who are divorced. All of us are telling you the same thing. You can learn just as much from failure as you can from success.

I don't think you are a bad person. I just think you are going about it this wrong way. I also think you don't know any other way to get this done because in your mind you've already tried everything else. You've posted about this before and I remember you being stuck in the same place. I also think most of us told you to grow up. It doesn't sound like you've made any progress.

I hope you come back to us in a month and have reached a decision and taken action. Even if you get told to shove off by her, get it done. Then fix whatever needs fixing so whomever you are living with in the future doesn't have to wade through your issues.

----------------------------------------------------------------------
Jen

"In order to keep a true perspective on one's importance, everyone should have a dog that worships him and a cat that will ignore him." - Dereke Bruce

Re: Strange emotions of divorce [JenSw] [ In reply to ]

Mar 5, 15 14:38

Post #84 of 126 (3112 views)

Ok I just emailed her this...

With respect to this weekend living arrangement we�ve agreed to I wanted to clarify something with you first.

My primary reason for doing this is because I want to spend quality time with the kids and I want to do it in a manner that causes minimal disruption to them. Allowing them to remain within their own home is the easiest way for this to happen as I see it.

However I�m also hoping to use this opportunity to prove to you that I have indeed changed as a person and that I am someone whom you would otherwise have wanted to raise your children with, love and spend your life with happily.

Somewhere back up those tracks our train began to decouple and derail carriage by carriage until there was nothing left to drive the marriage. We fell out of love with the person we thought we knew. We began displaying resentment to each other and it affected not only our own lives but more importantly that of our beautiful kids.

We both come from families where our parents have remained married for many years. Certainly with my parents there have been struggles but they are still there. Although I�m sure your parents have had their little moments they appear to have walked a less rocky path. I know you look at them and wished for the same sort of contentment in your own marriage, our marriage. Believe it or not I wished for the same thing (I�m sure all couples do).

Alas we�re all individuals and as individuals we each bring to the marriage a unique set of characteristics, including flaws. Despite the best of intentions these flaws can start to build walls between us. We�re not all equipped with the same abilities to recognise these walls in their early stages and we�re certainly not all equipped with the same tools with which to knock those walls down. In our case the wall became too high to the point that we could no longer see each other on the other side.

I like to think that I still have a deep seated love for you. I don�t believe you were just something that came along at the right time to fill a hole in my heart during troubled times. I do know that if and when we formalise the end of this marriage I�d like for us to be able to walk away knowing we did everything we could to give our children the same opportunity to grow up under the same roof with both parents that we enjoyed. To this point in time I don�t believe we can say that. Certainly I cannot.

Anyway as stated I want to do this because I want to show you what I am capable of. I want to show you that I�ve managed to take control of my life and I�ve put my personal baggage down. I�m not expecting anything in return. As far as you�re concerned you can go about your independent business as you choose. I won�t be requesting any restrictions be placed on what you do. I want to help you out as much as I can and I want to make your life easier. I want to see you continue to blossom as you have been doing recently. I�ve seen your confidence grow each day. It�s very alluring and I�m drawn to it in a way I don�t recall experiencing before. I believe I can help you grow even further.

I�m hoping that given the opportunity and time that you will see that I am the sort of person that will be there for you. I�m someone that wants nothing but success and happiness for you; I�ve always wanted that. With enough time and effort on my part I�m hoping that you will begin to find peace in your heart. I�m hoping that we might start refocussing on all the good things each of us has within instead of the flaws. Sure marriage is about taking the good with the bad, but a lot of the bad was created along the way and isn�t really part of who we truly are.

I�m also hoping that as you find more peace and happiness that you will recognise that my efforts are playing a large role in this; that I can be responsible for positive energy in your life. With this recognition I�m hoping that perhaps on your time off you might start choosing to spend some of that time with me. You might start wanting to open dialogue when we�re sitting on adjacent couches because you find the conversation more interesting than the conversation you�re having on your phone. Heaven forbid you might even want to sit on the same couch as I, coffees in hand, having a chuckle! I promise I won�t bite � hard. I�d like it very much if in time we decided to go out at night together. Maybe even try a dance class or two for laughs. Eventually you may even find it in you to one day slide across to my side of our bed.

Despite our uniqueness we�re not that different. Certainly nothing that can�t be overcome with enough effort. There�s something there I know it. I saw it and I felt it when we were having a stare off last night. No matter how small I saw a bit of magic in the backs of your eyes. I believe you saw the same thing. Only with this opportunity will we know for sure if it will bloom.

Make no mistake. This opportunity that I�m asking for is first and foremost for the kids. But it�s also to show to you I can do all those things you wished that I had done in years past. I don�t believe you have anything to lose. You will get more freedom and you will get more help. What you choose to do with that freedom will be entirely up to you. If we still choose to go our separate ways then I believe taking this opportunity will put us in a better frame of mind to make the right decisions for our kids but also for us.

If you�re not comfortable with my intentions then you need to let me know. I will be disappointed but I will understand. But I believe both of us will come away as better people from agreeing to this. I�m a romantic at heart. This is perhaps the most defining decision you will make. The sort that 40 years from now our grandkids will say �Come on Grandma, what did you say?� and you smile and say �I said yes!�

Tonight I�m going to be knocking on that door with a level of excitement I haven�t felt in a long time. I�m hoping to see you open it with a smile.

If you cane me for this then I'm totally clueless and may as well become a Tibetan monk.

Last edited by: mv2005: Mar 5, 15 14:41

Re: Strange emotions of divorce [mv2005] [ In reply to ]

Mar 5, 15 16:31

Post #85 of 126 (3078 views)

I like that you were clear and honest about your intentions. That sounds more decisive.

The one thing I'll say, and only because it's specifically something my wife and I discossed at least 37,000 times in counseling: the length. "Brevity is the wit of soul," said Shakespeare. I've little in the line of brevity, but my wife would get lost when I'd send her a lengthy message. She prefers a half a Tweet. I had to learn to be direct in messages, or be more like "Could we talk about this important thing when I get home. I'd like 10 minutes after the kids go to bed to talk through X." Then I'd have to stick to the 10 minutes. Amazingly, it helped & we resolved some things more efficiently. But it's so against my nature! Your wife may differ there, in which case, bravo!

Re: Strange emotions of divorce [mv2005] [ In reply to ]

Mar 5, 15 16:37

Post #86 of 126 (3073 views)

I like to think that I still have a deep seated love for you.

That struck me as a strange thing to say. "I like to think."

_________________________________
I'll be what I am
A solitary man

Re: Strange emotions of divorce [last tri in 83] [ In reply to ]

Mar 5, 15 16:49

Post #87 of 126 (3067 views)

last tri in 83 wrote:

I like to think that I still have a deep seated love for you.

That struck me as a strange thing to say. "I like to think."

I've been getting hammered about being honest. I'm being honest. We fell out of love some time ago. I can't put my hand on my heart and tell her that I still love her the same as when we first met.

Re: Strange emotions of divorce [MidwestRoadie] [ In reply to ]

Mar 5, 15 16:51

Post #88 of 126 (3064 views)

I suffer the same disease as you mate.

They don't call me the waffle king because of my penchant for certain foods.

Re: Strange emotions of divorce [mv2005] [ In reply to ]

Mar 5, 15 17:01

Post #89 of 126 (3061 views)

I just don't want to walk away having all the guilt.

Do you realize how self-centered that sounds? Get over it. There are actions, and there are consequences. Sometimes, those consequences suck. But you get over it, and you move on with your life.

Re: Strange emotions of divorce [mv2005] [ In reply to ]

Mar 5, 15 17:28

Post #90 of 126 (3048 views)

After that there was the fear of her taking off to Canada with kids in tow.

If that's a legitimate fear, then perhaps the first thing you should to is talk to a divorce lawyer. That's probably the only thing I'd recommend you do at this time that is behind her bac.

Re: Strange emotions of divorce [mv2005] [ In reply to ]

Mar 5, 15 18:20

Post #91 of 126 (3028 views)

mv2005 wrote:

last tri in 83 wrote:

I like to think that I still have a deep seated love for you.

That struck me as a strange thing to say. "I like to think."

I've been getting hammered about being honest. I'm being honest. We fell out of love some time ago. I can't put my hand on my heart and tell her that I still love her the same as when we first met.

I think that's the issue with having a big, important life discussion over email. Things can get misconstrued. I got stuck on that line too.

I hope she takes this way you want her to. Congratulations on doing something. Give her some time to think, but please go speak to her in person.

And now that you're saying you're in, be committed. No games, no hesitation. You're in. Time to do what you said you would.

Re: Strange emotions of divorce [mv2005] [ In reply to ]

Mar 6, 15 4:35

Post #92 of 126 (2957 views)

I read all of this and I have to agree with another poster about the length of what was said. I am left with mixed feelings. On one side, it sounds like your leaving. On another side, you say you still believe you love her and wish she would be closer to you.... When you say share coffee, sleep on your side of the bed, etc.

So- what are you doing?

You could just as easily say, I still love you and I wish I felt your actions reciprocated that. Since they do not, I must leave for myself and the kids.

Re: Strange emotions of divorce [mv2005] [ In reply to ]

Mar 6, 15 9:09

Post #93 of 126 (2901 views)

We fell out of love some time ago. I can't put my hand on my heart and tell her that I still love her the same as when we first met.

I don't love my wife the same way I loved her when we first met, or the same I loved her when we got serious, or the same the way we got married or even the same way I loved her yesterday, but there's zero question that I have a very deep seated love for her. Not loving someone the same is not the same as not loving them at all.

"I'd like to think" means "I don't know". Maybe you should find out if you do or don't love the person before you attempt to enter another relationship with them unless you're committed to the relationship even if you find you don't really like them at all.

~Matt

Re: Strange emotions of divorce [jharris] [ In reply to ]

Mar 6, 15 9:19

Post #94 of 126 (2892 views)

jharris wrote:

I read all of this and I have to agree with another poster about the length of what was said. I am left with mixed feelings. On one side, it sounds like your leaving. On another side, you say you still believe you love her and wish she would be closer to you.... When you say share coffee, sleep on your side of the bed, etc.

So- what are you doing?

You could just as easily say, I still love you and I wish I felt your actions reciprocated that. Since they do not, I must leave for myself and the kids.

This is the best post. OP, you seem to be playing a self-induced emotional game that will only hurt your children. Your cherubs dont need games. They need emotional and mental stability. My parents did this for some time and it really messed with my sister because she was torn with the back and forth. I, on the otherhand hamdled it well because my friends and playtime were more important than their problems. As another poster pointed out, you need to grow a sack and move on. You need to figure out what is best for you and yours without seeking advice from complete strangers who are only reading one side of the story.

_____________________________________
DISH is how we do it.

Re: Strange emotions of divorce [travelmama] [ In reply to ]

Mar 6, 15 9:26

Post #95 of 126 (2881 views)

The part I bolded is very important, in my opinion. The most crucial part of being able to put my marriage back together--aside from me getting counseling to address my own problems dealing with an abusive past and how that shaped my inability to get emotionally close, raw, and vulnerable in relationships--was having a small support network of friends and family who were in my life consistently, reminding me of my potential and also holding me accountable to continuing to move forward. Part of my change was the focus that I'd commit to keeping them in my life instead of avoiding them because I knew I could not do the personal healing I needed on my own, and without that personal healing my marriage improvements would be temporary at best. Who's close enough to you to be sharply honest? Lean on them for perspective, because putting a marriage back together is hard work and you cannot do it on your own.

travelmama wrote:

jharris wrote:

I read all of this and I have to agree with another poster about the length of what was said. I am left with mixed feelings. On one side, it sounds like your leaving. On another side, you say you still believe you love her and wish she would be closer to you.... When you say share coffee, sleep on your side of the bed, etc.

So- what are you doing?

You could just as easily say, I still love you and I wish I felt your actions reciprocated that. Since they do not, I must leave for myself and the kids.

This is the best post. OP, you seem to be playing a self-induced emotional game that will only hurt your children. Your cherubs dont need games. They need emotional and mental stability. My parents did this for some time and it really messed with my sister because she was torn with the back and forth. I, on the otherhand hamdled it well because my friends and playtime were more important than their problems. As another poster pointed out, you need to grow a sack and move on. You need to figure out what is best for you and yours without seeking advice from complete strangers who are only reading one side of the story.

Re: Strange emotions of divorce [mv2005] [ In reply to ]

Mar 6, 15 9:38

Post #96 of 126 (2870 views)

Sorry OP but that was a very self centered and condescending email IMO. My impression is that you think of her as a child who is mad at you, once she isn't mad at you, you can get her back under control and everything will be hunky dory again.

I am about the furthest thing from a feminist there is (yes I am male), just ask my wife. But I really think you sound condescending. Perhaps it is just my reading of it, but that is the issue with having real conversations over email, it is a poor choice, there are too many ways to read something.

You talk about her happiness stemming from you and your actions, then talk about all your wishes for things you want her to do. You talk about not wanting to feel guilty, all the problems were our problems. In your previous posts you attempt to take responsibility but then immediately go back to saying she is just as much to blame. Sorry but based on your posts you sound narcissistic and insufferable.

I don't agree with what your wife is doing (staying out to late hours). But you come off to me as a pain in the ass and I can see her being tired of hearing from you and acting out. Heck you won't even listen to the vast majority that is telling you where you are screwing up in this thread.

You really need to take an inward look, cut the BS and humble yourself. Marriage is based on two individuals having mutual respect for each other as individuals. You don't come off as respecting her as an individual, more of subject that has turned on you and you need to turn it back.

Anyway, just my reading, by posting you asked for opinions, that is mine. I don't know you so I may be way off, but that is my reading of your posts. Something to consider when you talk or write to her. Good luck, hope you find a solution that is healthy for the kids.

Re: Strange emotions of divorce [MJuric] [ In reply to ]

Mar 6, 15 10:12

Post #97 of 126 (2856 views)

MJuric wrote:

We fell out of love some time ago. I can't put my hand on my heart and tell her that I still love her the same as when we first met.

I don't love my wife the same way I loved her when we first met, or the same I loved her when we got serious, or the same the way we got married or even the same way I loved her yesterday, but there's zero question that I have a very deep seated love for her. Not loving someone the same is not the same as not loving them at all.

"I'd like to think" means "I don't know". Maybe you should find out if you do or don't love the person before you attempt to enter another relationship with them unless you're committed to the relationship even if you find you don't really like them at all.

~Matt

You can also still love someone and still get divorced.

Re: Strange emotions of divorce [aarondb4] [ In reply to ]

Mar 6, 15 10:25

Post #98 of 126 (2845 views)

aarondb4 wrote:

Sorry OP but that was a very self centered and condescending email IMO. My impression is that you think of her as a child who is mad at you, once she isn't mad at you, you can get her back under control and everything will be hunky dory again.

I am about the furthest thing from a feminist there is (yes I am male), just ask my wife. But I really think you sound condescending. Perhaps it is just my reading of it, but that is the issue with having real conversations over email, it is a poor choice, there are too many ways to read something.

You talk about her happiness stemming from you and your actions, then talk about all your wishes for things you want her to do. You talk about not wanting to feel guilty, all the problems were our problems. In your previous posts you attempt to take responsibility but then immediately go back to saying she is just as much to blame. Sorry but based on your posts you sound narcissistic and insufferable.

I don't agree with what your wife is doing (staying out to late hours). But you come off to me as a pain in the ass and I can see her being tired of hearing from you and acting out. Heck you won't even listen to the vast majority that is telling you where you are screwing up in this thread.

You really need to take an inward look, cut the BS and humble yourself. Marriage is based on two individuals having mutual respect for each other as individuals. You don't come off as respecting her as an individual, more of subject that has turned on you and you need to turn it back.

Anyway, just my reading, by posting you asked for opinions, that is mine. I don't know you so I may be way off, but that is my reading of your posts. Something to consider when you talk or write to her. Good luck, hope you find a solution that is healthy for the kids.

I agree with this statement with this in mind....

You can only control yourself and your actions. Take responsibility for what you have done and work through that. Be the person you WANT TO BE in a relationship. If it still does not work, then move on. Further, quit the talking and start the doing. Hell, if I got lengthy emails and constant lengthy discussions.... I would want to get drunk at a bar too and not come home. Maybe it is just too much to absorb. All I am saying is do what you need to do in the relationship and offer "the best you" to your spouse. If she still doesn't want you, move on.

It is her responsibility to do the same for herself.

You do what she needs in the relationship, despite what she does for you. See how it goes......

Again- you can work on it, or you can move on. Your kids will be fine as long as you are emotionally healthy, with or without your wife. End the confusion- for everyone and choose!

Re: Strange emotions of divorce [jharris] [ In reply to ]

Mar 6, 15 11:50

Post #99 of 126 (2813 views)

I'm looking forward to hearing how it went.

----------------------------------------------------------------------
Jen

"In order to keep a true perspective on one's importance, everyone should have a dog that worships him and a cat that will ignore him." - Dereke Bruce

Re: Strange emotions of divorce [mv2005] [ In reply to ]

Mar 6, 15 12:01

Post #100 of 126 (2801 views)

Am I reading all this right?

Instead of diving into your new marriage, you chose triathlon?
Your wife and child left and it took you a whole year to arrange a three week visit?
Your own kid is crying at 3 in the morning so you walk him down to drop him off with mom?

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