Re: Caitlin Clark (Sports Pioneer) [sphere] [ In reply to ]

Jun 11, 24 7:36

Post #576 of 599 (329 views)

sphere wrote:

Quote:

You really think the last spot on the roster will make or break the US getting a gold medal?

They fucked up the PR and brand management. In a few years if they're wondering why the sport still hasn't taken off well this would be just one more data point

The fact is women's basketball is popular at the collegiate level because it's school vs school. It doesn't translate to sustained professional interest any more than women's soccer does, at least not to the extent you're talking.

Agreed. While Women's Basketball (NCAA) did capture some attention this year based on a few personalities, it generally has to be pitched as school vs. school. Similarly, Team USA Women's Soccer leverages national pride in the World Cup and Olympics, but then nobody watches the pro teams (yes, some teams like Portland have good attendance figures). In neither case you do we have the population of cities basing their pride in their city on the outcomes of their WNBA or NWSL.

On another note: I think that anyone who says that Clark should have been put on the team should also bear the burden of telling you which player should have been left off, and why. If they can't name someone AND tell you about that player's stats or injuries or whatever, then their opinion is worthless. If they can't even name another player at her position, then their opinion is laughable.

These women all work incredibly hard to earn spots on Team USA. Putting one player on in place of another is not to be taken lightly and shouldn't be done for marketing purposes.

Re: Caitlin Clark (Sports Pioneer) [trail] [ In reply to ]

Jun 11, 24 8:22

Post #577 of 599 (313 views)

Quote:

Setting aside that she played four full years of varsity and therefore I believe exhausted her NCAA eligibility...

Covid gave players an extra year of eligibility. With redshirts for injuries + normal redshirts, I think there are some players who are 25 playing in college (7 years...).

Just curious, why couldnt she get the NIL deal with nike in advance?

You would think the extra eyeballs from the olympics would raise your global branding.

Re: Caitlin Clark (Sports Pioneer) [sosayusall] [ In reply to ]

Jun 11, 24 8:52

Post #578 of 599 (306 views)

Posted on Twitter:

The WNBA has released a report saying:

• Attendance is up 156% from last year, and more than half of all WNBA games this year have been sellouts.

• About 400,000 fans have attended WNBA games this season, filling WNBA arenas to 94% capacity.

• This year's televised games (ABC, ESPN, etc.) are averaging 1.32 million viewers, nearly triple last season's average of 462,000.

• WNBA Countdown is averaging 741,000 viewers, a 211% increase from last year's full season average.

• The WNBA's online merchandise store has already set a single-season sales record (with 4+ months left in the season), and sales are up 756% compared to last year.

• The WNBA's social channels garnered 157 million video views through the first week of the season, an all-time high and up 380% compared to last year.

• The WNBA set an all-time high for League Pass subscriptions last month with a 355% increase vs. last season.

The devil made me do it the first time, second time I done it on my own - W

Re: Caitlin Clark (Sports Pioneer) [sphere] [ In reply to ]

Jun 11, 24 8:57

Post #579 of 599 (302 views)

As I posted earlier in this thread: I'm not saying the WNBA should be kissing Caitlin's ass but...

She's the needle mover. It's not Angel Reese, Sabrina Ionescu, Diana Taurasi, Breanna Stewart, A'ja Wilson, etc. This is simply the influence of one person. Well, at least 90% of it.

Favorite Gear: Dimond | Cadex | Desoto Sport | Hoka One One

Re: Caitlin Clark (Sports Pioneer) [sphere] [ In reply to ]

Jun 11, 24 9:20

Post #580 of 599 (294 views)

Agree with all of that. The wnba brand is growing.

Is Clark’s brand growing as much? Prob not.

Would have it grown more staying in college + playing in the Olympics? Prob so.

She likely didn’t want to play/be in college, and making 30 mil is more than she thought she ever could.

It’s just an interesting question of how much she potentially left on the table. Athletes leave money on the table all the time.

Re: Caitlin Clark (Sports Pioneer) [sosayusall] [ In reply to ]

Jun 11, 24 9:25

Post #581 of 599 (285 views)

Clark did have another year of NCAA eligibility, but I don't know why people are leaping to the assumption that she would somehow have made the Olympic team if she stayed in college, when she didn't make the team as a pro. She still wouldn't have had any international experience. She still wouldn't have been part of any of the camps, screening processes, our tournaments that led up to the selection process. And there would have been no stage to compare her to the other players who were likely to be selected.

Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)

Re: Caitlin Clark (Sports Pioneer) [sosayusall] [ In reply to ]

Jun 11, 24 9:26

Post #582 of 599 (282 views)

Quote:

The wnba brand is growing.

We'll see. It's certainly enjoying a moment in the spotlight. Way too early to tell if the initial Clark effect will last or not.

Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)

Re: Caitlin Clark (Sports Pioneer) [sosayusall] [ In reply to ]

Jun 11, 24 9:27

Post #583 of 599 (282 views)

sosayusall wrote:

She likely didn’t want to play/be in college,

I don't understand why you keep saying this. She played every college game she could. Freshman to senior. By all appearances she *loved* college ball. She *was* Iowa basketball through and through.

It's impossible to say if she would have left early for the WNBA if that had been an option (it is not for the WNBA like it is for the NBA).

Edit: Ah, she did give up her extra COVID year of elibility.

That doesn't mean she "didn't want to play in college."

Straight-up endorsement contracts are very different from NIL deals. NIL deals go through a bunch of regulations and boards. Caitlin's Nike contract did not have anyone else in the room exept Nike, Caitlin, and Caitlin's agent.

Last edited by: trail: Jun 11, 24 9:33

Re: Caitlin Clark (Sports Pioneer) [sphere] [ In reply to ]

Jun 11, 24 9:32

Post #584 of 599 (277 views)

sphere wrote:

Posted on Twitter:

The WNBA has released a report saying:

• Attendance is up 156% from last year, and more than half of all WNBA games this year have been sellouts.

• About 400,000 fans have attended WNBA games this season, filling WNBA arenas to 94% capacity.

• This year's televised games (ABC, ESPN, etc.) are averaging 1.32 million viewers, nearly triple last season's average of 462,000.

• WNBA Countdown is averaging 741,000 viewers, a 211% increase from last year's full season average.

• The WNBA's online merchandise store has already set a single-season sales record (with 4+ months left in the season), and sales are up 756% compared to last year.

• The WNBA's social channels garnered 157 million video views through the first week of the season, an all-time high and up 380% compared to last year.

• The WNBA set an all-time high for League Pass subscriptions last month with a 355% increase vs. last season.

Hopefully the WNBA can continue to capitalize on this and showcase the league. I know the USWNT has struggled to do this once the world cup is over. Their league (I am unsure of what it is called) never really gains any traction after world cups and people cry that more should support women's soccer and it's those people that do not go to games or watch other than the World Cup final.

Re: Caitlin Clark (Sports Pioneer) [The GMAN] [ In reply to ]

Jun 11, 24 11:18

Post #585 of 599 (223 views)

The GMAN wrote:

As I posted earlier in this thread: I'm not saying the WNBA should be kissing Caitlin's ass but...

She's the needle mover. It's not Angel Reese, Sabrina Ionescu, Diana Taurasi, Breanna Stewart, A'ja Wilson, etc. This is simply the influence of one person. Well, at least 90% of it.

It is because of one person. Angel Reece. It all started when she waved her hand in her face. Angel is so skilled, that she was the only who could have thought to wave her hand in front of her face at the end of a game.

I'm joking, of course. I've come to realize that a lot of WNBA fans are not much different than WWE fans. They really love the side show drama.

-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
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Re: Caitlin Clark (Sports Pioneer) [BarryP] [ In reply to ]

Jun 11, 24 12:22

Post #586 of 599 (196 views)

No disrespect intended to the players, but I think you’re probably on to something here. Women’s basketball is a niche in sports entertainment and an exceptionally small one at that. Maybe taking a more WWE approach would grow the league while carving out its own unique space in the entertainment business. Think Globetrotters meets Savannah Bananas meets roller derby meets G.L.O.W. Heels, babyfaces, more dramatic uniforms and team identities, WWE style promos, on court gimmicks like a five pointer line, penalty boxes, power plays, a 3-on-3 3rd quarter. Shootouts in overtime.

Make it fun and offer what the NBA can’t and stop trying to produce a product and quality that’s beyond their grasp.

The devil made me do it the first time, second time I done it on my own - W

Re: Caitlin Clark (Sports Pioneer) [sphere] [ In reply to ]

Jun 11, 24 13:00

Post #587 of 599 (158 views)

sphere wrote:

No disrespect intended to the players, but I think you’re probably on to something here. Women’s basketball is a niche in sports entertainment and an exceptionally small one at that. Maybe taking a more WWE approach would grow the league while carving out its own unique space in the entertainment business. Think Globetrotters meets Savannah Bananas meets roller derby meets G.L.O.W. Heels, babyfaces, more dramatic uniforms and team identities, WWE style promos, on court gimmicks like a five pointer line, penalty boxes, power plays, a 3-on-3 3rd quarter. Shootouts in overtime.

Make it fun and offer what the NBA can’t and stop trying to produce a product and quality that’s beyond their grasp.

I know you said, "with all due respect," but that doesn't mean you can just say whatever you want to the WNBA, regardless of the Geneva Convention....

I think the WNBA would very much take issue with that idea. They really want the respect and status of a normal men's pro league.

Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)

Re: Caitlin Clark (Sports Pioneer) [BarryP] [ In reply to ]

Jun 11, 24 13:13

Post #588 of 599 (152 views)

BarryP wrote:

The GMAN wrote:

As I posted earlier in this thread: I'm not saying the WNBA should be kissing Caitlin's ass but...

She's the needle mover. It's not Angel Reese, Sabrina Ionescu, Diana Taurasi, Breanna Stewart, A'ja Wilson, etc. This is simply the influence of one person. Well, at least 90% of it.

It is because of one person. Angel Reece. It all started when she waved her hand in her face. Angel is so skilled, that she was the only who could have thought to wave her hand in front of her face at the end of a game.

I'm joking, of course. I've come to realize that a lot of WNBA fans are not much different than WWE fans. They really love the side show drama.

I think the drama is tied to all sports. People watch sports because of their relationships to the teams. Its why people watch and follow the MLS/college sports.

A couple of years ago I started to watch premier league soccer. The first year I didnt care at all. Then I learned about the rivalries, the players, their backstories, etc. and it makes everything interesting.

On the other hand, I used to watch a lot of basketball, then stopped. I dont even know half the players, and without knowing tendencies and things like that the game just isnt as interesting.

Re: Caitlin Clark (Sports Pioneer) [sphere] [ In reply to ]

Jun 11, 24 13:16

Post #589 of 599 (151 views)

sphere wrote:

Women’s basketball is a niche in sports entertainment

Triathlon is a niche in sport entertainment. WNBA is now featuring in SportsCenter updates. I don't watch WNBA or ESPN, but was at a sports bar over the weekend and saw WNBA all over the main ESPN channel. The "10 Top Plays" had WNBA mixed in with NBA. Not just Clark stuff.

There were no triathlon updates.

A lot of that might be ESPN being aspirational about market growth. But they sure are going for it.

Last edited by: trail: Jun 11, 24 13:17

Re: Caitlin Clark (Sports Pioneer) [slowguy] [ In reply to ]

Jun 11, 24 14:22

Post #590 of 599 (133 views)

slowguy wrote:

sphere wrote:

No disrespect intended to the players, but I think you’re probably on to something here. Women’s basketball is a niche in sports entertainment and an exceptionally small one at that. Maybe taking a more WWE approach would grow the league while carving out its own unique space in the entertainment business. Think Globetrotters meets Savannah Bananas meets roller derby meets G.L.O.W. Heels, babyfaces, more dramatic uniforms and team identities, WWE style promos, on court gimmicks like a five pointer line, penalty boxes, power plays, a 3-on-3 3rd quarter. Shootouts in overtime.

Make it fun and offer what the NBA can’t and stop trying to produce a product and quality that’s beyond their grasp.

I know you said, "with all due respect," but that doesn't mean you can just say whatever you want to the WNBA, regardless of the Geneva Convention....

I think the WNBA would very much take issue with that idea. They really want the respect and status of a normal men's pro league.

Qualifying my comments as sleep deprived and intoxicated….

You don’t get the respect and status of a normal men’s pro league when a JV high school boys team could clean your clocks.

Is it disrespectful to WWE superstars to acknowledge that MMA, boxing, and theater exists? They feel a very specific niche that I think female athletes might want to take a closer look at, and in reality have in the past with roller derby and their own professional wrestling league. I get that it’s considered diminishing to relegate women’s basketball to a sideshow act, But how do you think the Savannah bananas or Harlem Globetrotters players feel about their role vis-à-vis professional baseball players?

Maybe this is a situation where a minor-league opportunity exists to try different things, much like the XFL relative to NFL has done. Try new things and see what works, see what brings in the viewers and follow the money. Because right now the WNBA is in an awkward position of being choosy beggars and inot even Caitlin Clark can save it from the reality of itself.

The devil made me do it the first time, second time I done it on my own - W

Re: Caitlin Clark (Sports Pioneer) [sphere] [ In reply to ]

Jun 11, 24 14:30

Post #591 of 599 (122 views)

sphere wrote:

slowguy wrote:

sphere wrote:

No disrespect intended to the players, but I think you’re probably on to something here. Women’s basketball is a niche in sports entertainment and an exceptionally small one at that. Maybe taking a more WWE approach would grow the league while carving out its own unique space in the entertainment business. Think Globetrotters meets Savannah Bananas meets roller derby meets G.L.O.W. Heels, babyfaces, more dramatic uniforms and team identities, WWE style promos, on court gimmicks like a five pointer line, penalty boxes, power plays, a 3-on-3 3rd quarter. Shootouts in overtime.

Make it fun and offer what the NBA can’t and stop trying to produce a product and quality that’s beyond their grasp.

I know you said, "with all due respect," but that doesn't mean you can just say whatever you want to the WNBA, regardless of the Geneva Convention....

I think the WNBA would very much take issue with that idea. They really want the respect and status of a normal men's pro league.

Qualifying my comments as sleep deprived and intoxicated….

You don’t get the respect and status of a normal men’s pro league when a JV high school boys team could clean your clocks.

Is it disrespectful to WWE superstars to acknowledge that MMA, boxing, and theater exists? They feel a very specific niche that I think female athletes might want to take a closer look at, and in reality have in the past with roller derby and their own professional wrestling league. I get that it’s considered diminishing to relegate women’s basketball to a sideshow act, But how do you think the Savannah bananas or Harlem Globetrotters players feel about their role vis-à-vis professional baseball players?

Maybe this is a situation where a minor-league opportunity exists to try different things, much like the XFL relative to NFL has done. Try new things and see what works, see what brings in the viewers and follow the money. Because right now the WNBA is in an awkward position of being choosy beggars and inot even Caitlin Clark can save it from the reality of itself.

WWE and Globetrotters are bad examples, because both of those involve predetermined outcomes. The fix is in. And the Savanah Bananas are maybe not the best example, because every one of those players would take a call up to the serious big leagues in a heartbeat.

The WNBA is already basically a "minor league" in comparison to major men's pro sports, but it's the highest level of female pro basketball (maybe women's pro sports period) that exists in this country. Whether they'd get more dollars or not, I don't think they're willing to turn themselves into a sideshow act. It would basically be admitting that the absolute very best women in the world are still not good enough for their own serious pro league, which is the exact opposite of the message they want to send. Pride would not allow it.

Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)

Re: Caitlin Clark (Sports Pioneer) [slowguy] [ In reply to ]

Jun 11, 24 14:40

Post #592 of 599 (119 views)

“Pride would not allow it.”

I mean, obviously. But it’s not a ridiculous ideal, starting from scratch. Brock Lesner was a beast in UFC but made his fortune in pro wrestling. Rhonda Rousey, same deal. Did their pride keep them from branching out further into sports entertainment where the big money was? Unfortunately, for female athletes collegiate sports is the pinnacle, and I get that they’re trying to establish something different but in a sport where men play the same game at a much higher level, they’ll need to get creative or just accept that they’re third class citizens in the legitimate competition sports market.

The devil made me do it the first time, second time I done it on my own - W

Re: Caitlin Clark (Sports Pioneer) [sphere] [ In reply to ]

Jun 11, 24 14:51

Post #593 of 599 (117 views)

sphere wrote:

“Pride would not allow it.”

I mean, obviously. But it’s not a ridiculous ideal, starting from scratch. Brock Lesner was a beast in UFC but made his fortune in pro wrestling. Rhonda Rousey, same deal. Did their pride keep them from branching out further into sports entertainment where the big money was? Unfortunately, for female athletes collegiate sports is the pinnacle, and I get that they’re trying to establish something different but in a sport where men play the same game at a much higher level, they’ll need to get creative or just accept that they’re third class citizens in the legitimate competition sports market.

Yep. I don't disagree with your basic point. They have some options. They can focus on being the league that supports the highest level of serious women's pro basketball, run basically the same way as the men's game, and just be satisfied with existing on a smaller and less successful scale. Or they can focus on being the biggest they can be, which means looking at their basic model and figuring out what the most people really want to see and what they bring to the sports entertainment sphere that the NBA doesn't, and then structure their league to cater to that.

Or of course, they can focus on the first option and complain that they don't have the success of the second option (and blame it on misogyny).

It's a bit of an odd dynamic. I wonder how much of their struggle with mass market appeal is based on quality of the game vs demographics and image.

Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)

Re: Caitlin Clark (Sports Pioneer) [trail] [ In reply to ]

Jun 11, 24 14:59

Post #594 of 599 (112 views)

trail wrote:

I don't watch WNBA or ESPN, but was at a sports bar over the weekend and saw WNBA all over the main ESPN channel. The "10 Top Plays" had WNBA mixed in with NBA. Not just Clark stuff.

There were no triathlon updates.

T100, media, credentials...you know.

Re: Caitlin Clark (Sports Pioneer) [slowguy] [ In reply to ]

Jun 11, 24 16:49

Post #595 of 599 (68 views)

slowguy wrote:

I think the WNBA would very much take issue with that idea. They really want the respect and status of a normal men's pro league.

They should probably work on their image and managing their most valuable property then

Re: Caitlin Clark (Sports Pioneer) [slowguy] [ In reply to ]

Jun 11, 24 16:51

Post #596 of 599 (66 views)

slowguy wrote:

. It would basically be admitting that the absolute very best women in the world are still not good enough for their own serious pro league, which is the exact opposite of the message they want to send. Pride would not allow it.

Yet it's probably true

They couldn't survive without subsidies

Re: Caitlin Clark (Sports Pioneer) [sphere] [ In reply to ]

Jun 11, 24 17:25

Post #597 of 599 (29 views)

sphere wrote:

No disrespect intended to the players, but I think you’re probably on to something here. Women’s basketball is a niche in sports entertainment and an exceptionally small one at that. Maybe taking a more WWE approach would grow the league while carving out its own unique space in the entertainment business. Think Globetrotters meets Savannah Bananas meets roller derby meets G.L.O.W. Heels, babyfaces, more dramatic uniforms and team identities, WWE style promos, on court gimmicks like a five pointer line, penalty boxes, power plays, a 3-on-3 3rd quarter. Shootouts in overtime.

Make it fun and offer what the NBA can’t and stop trying to produce a product and quality that’s beyond their grasp.

So if the US abandoned having a top tier competition played under FIBA rules, would they still be eligible to compete as a national team at WC and Olympics?

Re: Caitlin Clark (Sports Pioneer) [satanellus] [ In reply to ]

Jun 11, 24 17:42

Post #598 of 599 (20 views)

satanellus wrote:

sphere wrote:

No disrespect intended to the players, but I think you’re probably on to something here. Women’s basketball is a niche in sports entertainment and an exceptionally small one at that. Maybe taking a more WWE approach would grow the league while carving out its own unique space in the entertainment business. Think Globetrotters meets Savannah Bananas meets roller derby meets G.L.O.W. Heels, babyfaces, more dramatic uniforms and team identities, WWE style promos, on court gimmicks like a five pointer line, penalty boxes, power plays, a 3-on-3 3rd quarter. Shootouts in overtime.

Make it fun and offer what the NBA can’t and stop trying to produce a product and quality that’s beyond their grasp.

So if the US abandoned having a top tier competition played under FIBA rules, would they still be eligible to compete as a national team at WC and Olympics?

Yes

Re: Caitlin Clark (Sports Pioneer) [windywave] [ In reply to ]

Jun 11, 24 17:43

Post #599 of 599 (20 views)

windywave wrote:

https://www.espn.com/olympics/basketball/story/_/id/40304459/reports-caitlin-clark-usa-basketball-national-team-roster

This is akin to leave Messi off the roster because he was winning the Champions league.
.

Wow. As someone who doesnt follow basketball, this has passed me by.

Is this woman considered one of the greatest players of all time? Like the best player in the world for pretty much a decade? Does she captain the US national team?

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