The incident is just a few days old, so I assume the noncommittal language is just because nobody has all the information yet.

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Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)

Makes sense, though this would certainly represent a change in tactics from Ben Crump.

Bodycam footage:

https://twitter.com/...-FrYocJle5g&s=19

This is very sad. My condolences to the man and his family.

I would like to point out that this is the same Sheriff's department where the cop emptied his gun at a guy locked up and handcuffed in the patrol car because he thought an acorn hitting the roof was the guy shooting at him.

Maybe they need to train their deputies a little better.

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Sad indeed. Here with another account.

https://wapo.st/4dwMApc

For police: Why would you back away from the peephole after announcing that you are the police? Would you not want to have your identity informed by your uniform to be confirmed.

What kind of neighborhoods generate fear such that answering the door requires you to have a gun in your hand?

Hear something, see something, then say something with third parties or fourth parties informing in domestic disputes, right door, wrong door? What could go wrong? A young man is dead because fear and guns arrived on both sides of a door.

He was a Senior Airman living in a beach town. Rent is crazy high right now. I doubt that he could afford an apartment in the best neighborhood.

When my wife and I first moved back to my home town it was right after a hurricane had hit and there were few places available. We lived in a house that had several lost cost apartments nearby. More than once I woke up and grabbed my pistol because I was concerned by a sound that I heard.

I would assume because people have shot at police through closed doors.

And have you ever had the police knock at your door. I have once and they don't use a gentle tap. I can see it causing enough alarm to grab a gun in defense. Of course if it was someone who actually intended harm they would either not knock or pretend to be DoorDash.

As Torrey stated, you don't want to get shot through the door. I'd rather stand behind a wall unseen than in front of a wooden door where the person inside knows exactly where you're standing. Ring doorbells present a whole other layer of trouble.

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Favorite Gear: Dimond | Cadex | Desoto Sport | Hoka One One

He got killed for one reason, he was holding a gun when he opened the door. All of the lead up is irrelevant, if he opens the door without the gun in his hand, he is alive today..

This is the dirty secret the NRA and gun nuts dont want you to know, that you are several times more likely to die if you own a handgun. You are way more likely to die than to be in some situation where you save yourself. It is a false sense of security they sell you, all the while cutting your brake line and sending you downhill.

there is no blame here except for our society, and like all the school shootings, this is societies cost for having these stupid and lax laws regarding guns and the culture surrounding them. I hope the cop doesn't get fried here and become the scapegoat, and the blame gets put where it belongs, us....

Sure, but with all due respect, if the choice is between the rights and safety of the citizen and the rights and safety of the officers,...the citizen should win out. Part of the job of police officers is to take a little extra risk to ensure the safety of the public. Making sure a citizen knows that the police are at their door might add a little risk to the officer, but it reduces risk of confusion on the part of the citizen which could lead to an unnecessary confrontation. Is that a trade-off police should be willing to make?

I can see where moving away from the door makes sense in a situation where you have high expectation of armed resistance like a drug bust, but just responding to a potential domestic violence call maybe shouldn't be treated the same way.

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Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)

You should talk to more cops out there doing this dangerous job. Here is the reality:

""A better statement would have been that ‘domestic disturbance/violence incidents are one of the most common circumstances in which on-duty law enforcement officers are feloniously killed,’" said Jordan Blair Woods, a University of Arizona law professor who has published research on police and traffic stops."

Rule number one don’t open your door for the police unless they have a warrant period.

I'm aware that these can be dangerous situations. Part of why the numbers for fatalities in those calls are more common is because there are just more of those calls than some other situations. And for sure, I'm not saying this is a clear cut or easy problem to solve. The one or two studies I've seen seemed to say that the way to decrease risk in domestic violence calls relies on better understanding of the situation beforehand including call history, suspect description, etc, and not responding alone (i.e. having backup).

I'm not law enforcement, so of course I'll defer to those who know these situations better. It just doesn't sit well to fail to make it clear to a citizen in his home that police are at their door, and then barge in and shoot him when he perceives a threat for which he has a right to defend himself.

Tragic circumstance, if everything is as has been currently reported.

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Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)

and then barge in and shoot him when he perceives a threat for which he has a right to defend himself. //

Its this sort of language that just fuels the hatred for cops out there. He did not barge in, the guy opened the door and was standing there with a gun in his hand. The cop was led to the door by someone that apparently was aware of the original call, so they both stood there legally facing each other. there was no barging in, the cop did what he was trained to do when confronted with someone holding a gun 3 feet away from him.


Like I said, the reason for this accident was the good guy with a gun in his hand. It's one of those encounters that cannot be explained away, it just is what it is in our society today. Cost of those 2A freedumbs...

You're right, it doesn't appear the officer barged in, but I would say that it seems too early to say whether or not he acted totally in accordance with his training. My understanding is the body cam video (partially redacted?) shows him opening fire almost immediately on the door opening without having given verbal commands before hand.

I'm not in any hurry to hang a police officer if it's not warranted. I've defended that side of many of these interactions before.

And for sure, having and answering the door with a handgun certainly increases your risk of getting shot.

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Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)

I've had police knock on my door. It definitely wasn't a gentle tap. Definitely loud thumps, probably with the side of a fist. During COVID, I was at home by myself working. My wife had left maybe 1/2 horu before for a doctor's appointment, and she had apparently mistakenly dialed 911, so a Deputy responded for a welfare check. He asked why I was out of breath when I answered. "Well, I was in the middle of work when I get loud banging on the door, my dogs are barking like crazy, and I have to calm them before I answer." Until this year, one of the worst days of my life.

He had a gun but didn't raise it. I understand the concern, but a well trained officer doesn't immediately shoot.

You're definitely right about the fact that, if you own a gun, that gun is significantly more likely to be used by or on someone in the household than for self-defense. But I also suspect those statistics by the large number of gun owners who are not responsible gun owners. There are measures a responsible owner can take to significantly reduce the risk of misuse. One problem is that some of those measures also make the gun less effective/available for self-defense purposes.

I didn't see an issue with the officer standing to the side while waiting for the door to be opened as a precaution, even though that may have made it more difficult to confirm that it was actually an officer. Also, when he did open the door, the officer was no longer standing to the side.

I do see a problem with the approach of banging on the door and then yelling that it's the police, as if that's going to be clearly heard. I think the approach is threatening and just creates chaos. People don't react rationally or calmly in chaotic situations. Even if the identification could be clearly heard through the door, should we expect the citizen to believe that it's really the police.

I don't think it was unreasonable for someone to answer with a gun in hand. I wouldn't, but that doesn't make it unreasonable. I don't understanding immediately shooting when that gun was never raised, and there was no movement to raise it. He wasn't Clint Eastwood who could raise the gun quicker than the officer could have pulled the trigger. "Drop the gun" is meaningless when you're already firing.

The USA is a huge country.
There are lots of normal cops.
There are lots of racist, stupid cops, aggressive cops.

I suppose it's important that many people feel that the police are constantly doing criminally racist and dangerous things

This probably indicates that there is a problem..

But even a couple hundred cases of police error- proves very little.


It occurs to me that the right is always looking for single examples that they believe disproves statistics, logic and game theory.

I wonder if all this focus on individual cases of police misconduct is not actually reinforcing a right wing world view.

What kind of neighborhoods generate fear such that answering the door requires you to have a gun in your hand?

There used to be a time when knocking on doors, stopping by unannounced, etc. was common. You wanted to visit a friend, you just stopped by.

That's no longer the case. Even door to door sales is a dying profession, and when was the last time that the Mormons knocked.

If I didn't order Doordash, it could be weeks or more without someone knocking on my door.

So if you're not in the safest neighborhood, and someone bangs, not just knocks, but bangs on your door. And then yells something indecipherable, you might be at least a bit weary about answering. If you're on Nextdoor where alarmist posts about home invasions get amplified, you might be even more concerned. You could always just not answer. But if it's someone with ill intent, what's to prevent them from breaking down the door if they think nobody's home. How do you distinguish this behavior from the police conducting a welfare check, especially when the police go about that in an aggressive manner?

You can say that you shouldn't answer the door under those circumstances with a gun, in the event that it just might be the police. But on the flip side, shouldn't the police when banging on doors be prepared for even an innocent person to answer with a gun? And of the two, who should we expect to be trained for these situations and be most accountable for their conduct?

At what point will police be trained that in a chaotic situation, many people won't know how to respond when you're screaming conflicting orders at them while also pointing a gun at them? That the fact that they didn't obey an order may be more that their scared and confused and not uncooperative?

You can say that you shouldn't answer the door under those circumstances with a gun,//

Yes yes, you have hit on the solution..Congratulations, you win your life back from the 2A nutters....

The bolded. It seems like LE are less stewards of the community and more soldier these days. When you are the hammer, everything looks like a nail. Is it too much to increase conflict resolution training and increase accountability?