What are your uses, requirements and needs?

Caveat...my only interaction with HK416's were in a mil context.

They are certainly spendy for civilians to acquire that's for sure. A cheaper 'poor mans' version would be the SIG 516 if you're looking for a piston gun that doesn't "shit where it eats."

Some will argue that the piston system in the AR platform is a solution in search of a problem. There were serious issues with bolt tilt in early cheap versions of piston systems. Bolt tilt has been largely solved. The piston system does give you some advantages when firing the weapon suppressed.

Like most teutonic kit (BMW moto's for example) they are well engineered and $$$$.

/r

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Steve

Shooting at a range. Yes I know it's overkill probably, but my firearms knowledge is limited so I look to what people who are knowledgeable use. My concern is getting a downmarket firearm and having issues with it. I don't like being pennywise and pound foolish

I would wait before buying a 416. I'm guessing/hoping that the new HK factory in Columbus will begin pumping them out for us civvies....which would mean you'd pay $2200 instead of $5k+.

I would also wait to see if it has the adjustable gas block. If it doesn't, don't buy it.

This is a buyer's market for firearms. I'm sure you could pickup a lightly used quality AR (even a piston driven AR) for much, much much less on gunbroker. Hell you can grab a KAC SR15 for under $1500 easy.

My unsolicited advice? Buy a stripped lower from your local FFL (max $70). Then build it up. It's extremely easy (just about as hard as wrenching on a bike) and you will understand the weapon system much better. Whatever you do...get an adjustable gas block so that you can tune the weapon to whatever ammo you happen to be using.

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My training

"Shooting at a range. Yes I know it's overkill probably...."

So a 416 to just shoot at the range?

I apologize for getting into this thread thinking it was serious. So look man if you're gonna get a 416 to just punch some paper make sure you get a aiming laser too.



You'll also want the gucci helmet. But be sure to roll your sleeves up a bit tho as that's probably the only clue that reveals the guy above as a poser.

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Steve

Bravo! (I don't post much anymore but this was too good to ignore).

(For range play, just get an anonymous AR .... and clean it and lube it after every outing. Who cares? It will be fine.)

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*****
"In case of flood climb to safety"

In that case, I would not recommend a HK416 or something gucci.


IMHO and from friends in the US that are pretty dialed-in, go with a known company for an AR platform.

Bravo Company is highly recommended, KAC as well, S&W MP15 as well Colt 6920's are considered GTG. No need to spend a ton of money. Would not recommend trying to build up your own gun...it may seem easy, and there are plenty of instructional videos on Youtube, but if you make a mistake the least worse is that you end up with an AR club that doesn't go boom, and the most worse is probably one that goes high-order BOOM in your face. Just my $0.02.

Spend the money on training, ammo and range time. Don't need fancy setup...start up with iron sights, move onto red dot sights if you'd like.

As always, it's the Indian and not the arrow.

Good luck and have fun.

No. You would have to sacrifice far too many Zimas to afford it.

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If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

Emery's Third Coast Triathlon | Tri Wisconsin Triathlon Team | Push Endurance | GLWR

Are you a dentist?

Like I said I'm not knowledgeable. I shot a friend's AR15 variant and it was fun. I just went to Wikipedia worked my way through and the HK416 ( technically the civilian variant) was the latest development it seemed. If you have an alternative I'm all ears.

A rare moment of honesty. Unless, we are talking about Zima ...










... or sucking at football ...

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If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

Emery's Third Coast Triathlon | Tri Wisconsin Triathlon Team | Push Endurance | GLWR

I admitted it in the shotgun thread too.

I don't get people's strong reactions to my gun questions though. I've shot guns maybe 6 times in my life and am interested in it and attempting to do research so I'm informed.

If you want a piston gun go with LWRCI. It's a superior design with a self-regulating piston: hot loads vent gas earlier and weak loads retain gas longer. This ensures that the impulse to the carrier is in a narrower range for a given spread of temperatures and powder loads. This is accomplished by the geometry of the inner piston face where it meets the gas block (and the geometry of a protrusion from the gas block).

If you just want to drop money on an AR, get something from KAC. Their E3 bolt solves an actual problem ARs have.

The 416 is a nice gun but not worth the money IMO and other than being well made (which is important) there's nothing special about its design.

Do I want a piston gun? Serious question

That's a really good question. I have a piston driven Ruger 556. I also have a couple other ARs of various flavors. Of course I lost all of them in the flood ...

The piston is supposed to be smoother and cleaner. It is. But let's be honest - it's a 5.56, not a shotgun or 50 cal, so it isn't like there is much recoil. Yes, my chamber stays cleaner. Yes it is a bit smoother. But it is also another moving part to service on the gun. I love the rifle, but if I could only grab one in a SHTF situation, I would not take it. No, it is not complicated to service and clean. Yes, it is another moving part and a little more work.

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If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

Emery's Third Coast Triathlon | Tri Wisconsin Triathlon Team | Push Endurance | GLWR

What is the alternative? Which has less recoil?

So I looked back at your requirements. Basically, you're just looking for a rifle that goes bang when you go to the range and will last. You're not looking for a weapon to survive crazy firing schedules during a zombie apocalypse.

The primary risk you run is that something is out of spec from the factory. When an AR is well built it will cycle for 10,000+ rounds with nothing more than occasional lubrication. Sometimes, however, the factory messes up and whatever that failure is it usually materializes in the first 50-100 rounds. One of the most common "early" failures I see on ARs is that the gas block isn't properly set which means it will wiggle out of place after the first 50-100 rounds causing your rifle to not cycle (mysteriously to the end user). Once that failure is corrected (by a gunsmith or the manufacturer) the weapon could easily cycle for 10,000 rounds without a hitch.

So you need a properly built AR made by a company that has a good reputation for customer service. From that perspective, I'd actually exclude H&K from your list. It's not a myth that they really don't care about U.S. consumers. If you want a piston gun, get a LWRC or a Sig (in that order).

I'm a big fan of Bravo Company Manufacturing (BCM) but there are other good manufacturers as well. KAC is on the same level as H&K (IMO they make better weapons and FWIW they get a lot of SOCOM contracts). Daniel Defense is great consumer brand. Heck, Ruger even makes an ok stick now.

Here's what you need to look for in your rifle:

1. Proper gas system length


1. Carbine length on a 14.5" barrel (mid length is acceptable if the gas port is sized correctly but, to my knowledge, only BCM does this)
2. Mid length on a 16" barrel
3. Rifle length on an 18-20" barrel.
4. Carbine length on a 16" barrel IS NOT OK even though tons of manufacturers pump that exact configuration out
2. A well made barrel and bolt


1. Look for a cold hammer forged barrel. I say this because it reduces the odds of a shit barrel because there's only two manufacturers (to my knowledge) in the U.S. that do CHF barrels for ARs: FN and Daniel Defense. You can make a perfectly fine barrel with cut rifling but most people really don't understand how amorphous the supply chain is for firearms components. There are plenty of shit barrels out there.
2. A bolt made from C-158. 9310 bolts are ok too but you need to be sure who makes it knows what they're doing. The advantage of C-158 is that it's difficult to source in small batches and it's a bitch to machine. As such, C-158 bolts are usually made in batches by Continental Machine Tool (CMT). CMT has been doing it for a long time and they make a good bolt.
3. A properly staked carrier key. The manufacturer will just state that it's "staked"
4. Ideally the gas block will be secured by taper pins. If it's secured with a set screw(s) it's not the end of the world.
5. Good magazines. This is really pretty simple: get Magpul P-Mags.

Other things: stuck cases in an AR are the result of running steel cased ammo and then running brass cased ammo without cleaning the chamber. Steel cased ammo doesn't expand that well and as a result there's a bit of blowback and corresponding residue in the chamber. Brass expands very well so when gunpowder residue is present and the brass expands into it, the brass sort of becomes adhered/cold welded to the chamber. EDIT: this failure will happen with both piston and DI guns! The blowback that ends up in the chamber comes from the barrel! DI guns "shit" into the bolt carrier and upper receiver which were actually designed with this in mind. The blowback going through a gas tube never sees the chamber.

On a theoretical note, a lot of people get the whole piston vs DI argument wrong. Most people believe that piston guns handle "over the beach" and other adverse operating scenarios better than DI guns. That's not the case. DI vs piston basically comes off to a tradeoff between two failure modes: failure of the gas tube due to an extreme firing schedule (literally melting the gas tube) vs failure of the op rod (piston) due to warping. This failure mode is more common than you'd think btw. It' happened a fair amount at altitude in Afghanistan across multiple weapons platforms.

The whole "AR is unreliable" myth really gained traction with the first iteration of the M4. The M-16 was designed as a 20" barrel with a ~15" gas system. When you chopped that down to a 14.5" barrel and a ~9" gas system the cyclic rate went way up and the bolt unlocked earlier (thus under higher pressure/stress). The magazines used at the time weren't able to keep up with the cyclic rates and prior to the adjusting the gas port lots of bolts failed early. Even as that weapon stands now, the bolt still unlocks too early.

Applying the operating principal of the AK to the AR is really a bad idea IMO. If you were to disassemble the weapons side by side you'd notice a few things: first, the piston you'd find on an AK is much larger than the piston you'd find on an AR platform. The receiver is built accordingly. The piston on a piston-based AR needs to be really well made in order to survive. So you're going from one mission critical part (the bolt) to two (the bolt and the piston) while adding weight toward the muzzle of the weapon. The only reason to do that is if you're going to get the advantages of the LWRC system IMO.


Feel free to ask any other questions

Direct impingement is the alternative and the most popular and prevalent. There is a small hole in the barrel. As the bullet goes down the barrel, the gas from the explosion goes up that hole, into the gas tube and back to your bolt carrier group. The gas pushes the bolt carrier group back, which cycles the firearm (ejects the spent casing and loads the next round).

As a result, all the "crap" in the gas pushes back into your bolt carrier group and your receiver. This is how it gets dirty and, with cheap ammo, it gets really dirty. But, that's what an AR does - it shoots and gets dirty.

On a piston system, the gas activates the piston. The piston pushes the bold carrier group and cycles the rifle. The crap from the discharging round does not blow back. So, the upper is cleaner. It cycles faster. Also, it is adjustable, which is nice (but not required) if you use a suppressor. On an SBR, a piston system aids with accuracy and "controls" the short barrel a bit better.

But, piston systems are more expensive and heavier. In some cases, they are noticeably heavy.

Most ARs on the market are direct gas impingement.

The piston systems often have lighter perceived recoil. Some of this is from the cycling action. Some is from the fact that they are heavier. But, we are talking about a 5.56 round. It doesn't have that much kick to being with. I would not base my decision on the thought the recoil could be less with a piston system.

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If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

Emery's Third Coast Triathlon | Tri Wisconsin Triathlon Team | Push Endurance | GLWR

Thank you. I'm going to have read your post a couple of times and look up some things.

Is this a correct encapsulation? Piston, you need to clean less but more parts that could break, DI less parts to break but have to clean more

There are other pros and cons, but, yes, this is correct.

Other primary factors:

1. Price. Piston is more.
2. Weight. Piston is heavier.
3. Adjustability. Piston can be adjusted for ARs, different ammo, etc. DI cannot.

Personally, I love my piston-driven AR, but only have 1 and feel no need to go down piston route again. The two ARs I shoot regularly are DI.

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If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

Emery's Third Coast Triathlon | Tri Wisconsin Triathlon Team | Push Endurance | GLWR