Login required to started new threads

Login required to post replies

Micromanagers
Quote | Reply
First off, work is going well. Job is laid back, money is good, my boss is awesome as are most of my coworkers.


Having said that, I find micromanagers to be annoying and have had to deal with them from time to time (like my former boss). One of my limitations is that I can work in two modes. Either let me figure it out, or tell me what you want me to do. What I have never been successful at is figuring out how to think of something on my own that is the way that someone else would want me to do it.


Right now I'm working with a 25-ish year old project manager (I'm 44). The project we are working on is something that we did on our last system. My reputation in the company is literally built on the fact that I was put on the old project 7 years ago and turned something that was chaotic crap into something that worked. It was so successful that they decided to do it for the new instruments, but instead of just letting me do it, they turned it into a big, convoluted, expensive project so that lots of execs could stamp their names on it.

......but I digress. Anyway, I have one analyst who reports to me and has a good 30 years of experience. We've now added a recent college grad who will be working with the analyst and doing some of the work. The project manager thinks that we need to have a system to keep track of what has been worked on and what each of them is working on so that they don't duplicate their efforts. He said that we could do whatever we wanted and that he didn't care but thought that I should come up with the system. I gave him my answer, which I guess he thought was lame because it didn't involve enough micromanaging on my part, so then he told me what he wanted me to tell them what to do (the four of us are in a room together for this meeting).

I think its important to note that the tasks are pretty simple, both are college grads, one has 30 years of professional experience, and their cubes are literally next to each other. I thought, "you're both adults and I don't need to tell you how not to duplicate your work" should have been sufficient.

Anyway, of the 20-30 managers I've had, this is the 3rd micromanager I've had to deal with. The last one was really bad. He thought that managing was contradicting everything his employees said and telling them to do it differently. He once changed something that he thought was mine because he forgot that he had already changed it. So we ultimately went back to what I was originally doing. The first micromanager was a math curriculum supervisor who wanted to write the lesson plans for every single math teacher in the school district and force us to follow them, regardless of the unique challenges that we faced.

Anyway, what causes people to micromanage?

-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485
Quote Reply
Re: Micromanagers [BarryP] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
BarryP wrote:
Anyway, what causes people to micromanage?


Why People Micromanage

Here's the meat of it:

Managers worry about being disconnected. As managers rise through the ranks, they often become concerned that they’ve lost touch with the actual work of the organization. Because they have less direct contact with the shop floor or customers, they start to feel isolated. One way of reducing this anxiety is to seek information in as many ways as possible — through reports, meetings, and one-on-one conversations. But since this attempt to stay connected is largely unplanned and driven by idiosyncratic anxiety, the result is that managers at different levels and functions end up looking at the same basic data in many different ways.

Managers stay in familiar operational territory. Many managers are unable to let go of their old job or their old ways of doing their job. It’s the well-worn saying: “What got you here won’t get you there.” Many managers are promoted based on their ability to achieve operational goals, manage budgets, control their numbers, and solve problems. However, at higher levels managers usually need to dial down their operational focus and learn how to be more strategic. To do so, managers have to trust their people to manage day-to-day operations and coach them as needed, rather than trying to do it for them. For many managers this is a difficult transition and they unconsciously continue to spend time in the more comfortable operational realm of their subordinates.

Edited to add: Here is another take from NY Magazine. (Title: Bosses Micromanage When They Feel Powerless)

''The enemy isn't conservatism. The enemy isn't liberalism. The enemy is bulls**t.''

—Lars-Erik Nelson
Last edited by: Danno: Jul 21, 17 12:30
Quote Reply
Re: Micromanagers [BarryP] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
HERE is a good read on the subject.

________
It doesn't really matter what Phil is saying, the music of his voice is the appropriate soundtrack for a bicycle race. HTupolev
Quote Reply
Re: Micromanagers [BarryP] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
That does not sound like micromanagement. It seems like he is helping you manage the work. He gave you a chance to organize your team's work and it seem you did not do it. You seem to be used to managers who do not provide and guidance or review of your work. That can work, but often not so well sometimes.

I have a great team, but I find they often miss critical tasks when completing long complex tasks. It's not like they won't figure it out but we will not meet our agreements with customers, or will have to rework things etc. All things that would impact our customer and make them trust us less so we may not get future work. The team would figure it out eventually in most cases, but that is not necessarily efficient.

I do not help them do every task, but we do review the work and create plans to make sure steps are not missed. We review who else has the experience they need and make sure they engage people who can mentor them at critical tasks. One or two will create their own plans, but most will not if we do not create them together. It seems you would say that is micromanaging, but I would just say that is managing in a way to ensure success of the person and the team.
Quote Reply
Re: Micromanagers [BarryP] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
BarryP wrote:
First off, work is going well. Job is laid back, money is good, my boss is awesome as are most of my coworkers.


Having said that, I find micromanagers to be annoying and have had to deal with them from time to time (like my former boss). One of my limitations is that I can work in two modes. Either let me figure it out, or tell me what you want me to do. What I have never been successful at is figuring out how to think of something on my own that is the way that someone else would want me to do it.


Right now I'm working with a 25-ish year old project manager (I'm 44). The project we are working on is something that we did on our last system. My reputation in the company is literally built on the fact that I was put on the old project 7 years ago and turned something that was chaotic crap into something that worked. It was so successful that they decided to do it for the new instruments, but instead of just letting me do it, they turned it into a big, convoluted, expensive project so that lots of execs could stamp their names on it.

......but I digress. Anyway, I have one analyst who reports to me and has a good 30 years of experience. We've now added a recent college grad who will be working with the analyst and doing some of the work. The project manager thinks that we need to have a system to keep track of what has been worked on and what each of them is working on so that they don't duplicate their efforts. He said that we could do whatever we wanted and that he didn't care but thought that I should come up with the system. I gave him my answer, which I guess he thought was lame because it didn't involve enough micromanaging on my part, so then he told me what he wanted me to tell them what to do (the four of us are in a room together for this meeting).

I think its important to note that the tasks are pretty simple, both are college grads, one has 30 years of professional experience, and their cubes are literally next to each other. I thought, "you're both adults and I don't need to tell you how not to duplicate your work" should have been sufficient.

Anyway, of the 20-30 managers I've had, this is the 3rd micromanager I've had to deal with. The last one was really bad. He thought that managing was contradicting everything his employees said and telling them to do it differently. He once changed something that he thought was mine because he forgot that he had already changed it. So we ultimately went back to what I was originally doing. The first micromanager was a math curriculum supervisor who wanted to write the lesson plans for every single math teacher in the school district and force us to follow them, regardless of the unique challenges that we faced.

Anyway, what causes people to micromanage?

Hilarious.....my old boss just left my office(he was a micromanager) and then I get to read this.

He just came by my office to find out why he wasn't invited to the recent qtrly margin meeting. I informed him that Fin accounting wanted to keep the meetings small and quick and only bring in other groups as needed.(Read between the lines: you don't provide any valuable input). This won't go over well. I'm sure he left my office and headed right on down to find out why he was being cut out.
Glad to not be working for him any more. Got tired of having a column moved or font changed on every spreadsheet I sent him. Just so he could provide his contribution.
Quote Reply
Re: Micromanagers [H-] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Ha! Well, in case you haven't figured it out, micromanaging is one of my pet peeves.

Well played, sir. Well played! =)

-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485
Quote Reply
Re: Micromanagers [ubdawg] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
My old manager moved to a different position is the middle of our fiscal year. When year end reviews came around, he insisted that my new manager let him contribute to my review. My new manager refused.

-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485
Quote Reply
Re: Micromanagers [patf] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
To put it in perspective:

Last year I had a big project. We needed to migrate a bagillion reports and data sets from one system to another. I started planning for this 9 months in advance, before we even had the team in place. I held twice weekly meetings to keep track of the progress of each and every element, put together waterfall charts, and worked in projections. Occasionally I had to shift priorities around for different employees, escalate issues, and occasionally hound the team to finish stuff that's been sitting around.

The bottom line is, I'm in charge of a variety projects. I manage what needs to be managed, and I'm hands off on everything else. Trust we when I tell you, this isn't black or white. Its not about micro managing vs being hands off.

We've been given no reason to believe that two adults who sit next to each can't figure out how to avoid duplicating work. Was it a good idea to bring up the possibility? Sure. "Hey, make sure you don't duplicate your work," is good enough for me.

Having a project manager tell the team lead to devise a system to then make two people follow for an incredibly simple task is, in my view, micromanaging.

In my personal opinion, he wants to believe that his job is as complicated as your job. Its simply not.

-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485
Quote Reply
Re: Micromanagers [Danno] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Danno wrote:
BarryP wrote:
Anyway, what causes people to micromanage?


Why People Micromanage

Here's the meat of it:

Managers worry about being disconnected. As managers rise through the ranks, they often become concerned that they’ve lost touch with the actual work of the organization. Because they have less direct contact with the shop floor or customers, they start to feel isolated. One way of reducing this anxiety is to seek information in as many ways as possible — through reports, meetings, and one-on-one conversations. But since this attempt to stay connected is largely unplanned and driven by idiosyncratic anxiety, the result is that managers at different levels and functions end up looking at the same basic data in many different ways.

Managers stay in familiar operational territory. Many managers are unable to let go of their old job or their old ways of doing their job. It’s the well-worn saying: “What got you here won’t get you there.” Many managers are promoted based on their ability to achieve operational goals, manage budgets, control their numbers, and solve problems. However, at higher levels managers usually need to dial down their operational focus and learn how to be more strategic. To do so, managers have to trust their people to manage day-to-day operations and coach them as needed, rather than trying to do it for them. For many managers this is a difficult transition and they unconsciously continue to spend time in the more comfortable operational realm of their subordinates.

Edited to add: Here is another take from NY Magazine. (Title: Bosses Micromanage When They Feel Powerless)
I don't agree.
People are not "managed". Projects and resources are "managed". People are "led" and that requires a leader, not a manager. That's the fundamental problem.

Leaders have a clue how to get the most out of people. Different kinds of people do best with different amounts of guidance. Someone who is an experienced self-starting hard-charger just needs to be pointed in the right direction. A different kind of person might need more precise, more detailed guidance, and have more thresholds (in the project) ID'd to help boss and subordinate check with each other on progress routinely.

The civilian world talks about leadership a lot, HR provides training on it every once and now, but they're just going thru the motions. It's darn rare, imo, of for any civilian org to have the first clue about leadership. Your average 20yr old Marine Corps Corporal knows more about getting the most out of people then any 10 civilian middle managers. Our HR dept. for example, leads the way in ensuring that middle managers are insulated from any task that could wall fall under the definition of basic leadership.

Human nature hasn't changed since we started walking up right. Yet we struggle with the same BS constantly. The problem is that, in terms of leadership, the civilian world doesn't even know what they don't know. There's no culture of knowledge. There's no mentoring of youngsters to become leaders. It's pathetic.

Books @ Amazon
"If only he had used his genius for niceness, instead of Evil." M. Smart
Quote Reply
Re: Micromanagers [RangerGress] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Two of the best managers I've worked under were both former military, and what you said describes their style very well.

Following up on your point, my last manager can best be described as someone who was "acting like a manager." I knew him pretty well and was able to pick up on the fact that he often did things that looked or sounded "managerial." He had no idea what leadership was.

As an example, he thought that my reviews should be compared against my potential, not my position. At the time I was being underpaid (bad economy, out of industry experience, etc.). I told him that if I'm outperforming everyone at my level, I should get a bigger raise. He saw the raise as motivating to push me to work harder, so to get a small raise I needed to outperform my potential, not just the others at my level that I was better than.

Fortunately for me, I figured him out and just pretended that the success on all of my projects was due to his great leadership and I got a good raise that year.

-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485
Quote Reply
Re: Micromanagers [BarryP] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
It gets you promoted.
Quote Reply
Re: Micromanagers [BarryP] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
BarryP wrote:
Ha! Well, in case you haven't figured it out, micromanaging is one of my pet peeves.

Well played, sir. Well played! =)

I just got this feeling of deja vu all over again so had to confirm I wasn't going crazy. But I think you are spot on in your posts about this particular situation. And I agree with RangerGress, so I'd say that micro managers are just folks who lack the skills to lead other people.

Tell your boss the following: My system for managing their work is to have them sit in adjacent cubicles. I told them to consult each other at least twice a day to ensure they don't duplicate work. If they duplicate work, I told them I will hit them over the head with one of my rattan swords. They won't do it again.

________
It doesn't really matter what Phil is saying, the music of his voice is the appropriate soundtrack for a bicycle race. HTupolev
Quote Reply
Re: Micromanagers [RangerGress] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Total aside and i have never been in the military but one of my colleagues up until a month ago was a former british 3 star equivalent relegated to a perilheral role in an organisation of 25k and he repeatedly told me he was actually the only person in the organisation with a formal qualification in leadership (sandhurst) and a 30+ year career as a commissioned officer

My response was always, fair point look at the shit state of the business to see the consequence of no leadership
Quote Reply
Re: Micromanagers [H-] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
H- wrote:
BarryP wrote:
Ha! Well, in case you haven't figured it out, micromanaging is one of my pet peeves.

Well played, sir. Well played! =)


I just got this feeling of deja vu all over again so had to confirm I wasn't going crazy. But I think you are spot on in your posts about this particular situation. And I agree with RangerGress, so I'd say that micro managers are just folks who lack the skills to lead other people.

Tell your boss the following: My system for managing their work is to have them sit in adjacent cubicles. I told them to consult each other at least twice a day to ensure they don't duplicate work. If they duplicate work, I told them I will hit them over the head with one of my rattan swords. They won't do it again.

And are afraid that:
1. Their "subordinates" are smarter than them
2. They do not understand the work

I work for the Navy, one of the officers is on leave right now but is still sending emails to his staff at 1130 at night. Fortunately I do not report to them so no skin off my back.

All I Wanted Was A Pepsi, Just One Pepsi

Team Zoot, Team Zoot Mid-Atlantic

Quote Reply
Re: Micromanagers [BarryP] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Well, it doesn't sound all that bad. Sometimes, something is worth saying, even if you assume people know what your saying- at least you said it. Plus, if something goes wrong, you can say- I told you so!

All he said was don't duplicate your work.

I see micromanaging as: someone tells you to do something that will take 20 steps. Every step they ask for more than just an "update on progress". They begin to tell you what to do instead of you actually doing it. I always think of a timeline as when something will be finished. Not as much about daily progress since sometimes things move in waves like car traffic. Micro-managing goes against this logic as the tendency is to want daily progress.
Quote Reply
Re: Micromanagers [BarryP] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Quote:
What causes people to micromanage

Mostly insecurity.
Quote Reply
Re: Micromanagers [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Consider this thought experiment, assuming you've had lots of bosses over the years.

Some of those bosses were dickheads that perceived you only as a tool on who's back they might advance. It was obvious that they didn't give a shit for you. They weren't interested in your opinions or concerns. They were quick to blame and slow to praise. They never talked you up to others, they never emphasized your role in a successful effort, instead, they were quick to associate their own name with your successes.

Now consider the opposite. The boss that gave a shit about you. The boss that, when there were screw ups or you could have plainly done better, used those as opportunities to teach you, like a father would use a screw up as a learning point for their teenage kid instead of just yelling at him. The boss never ever took credit for success, but instead made sure it was their subordinates that got the credit. Every failure of those subordinates however, he made sure the boss's knew that those failures were his own, not the subordinate's....because, as he explained, there were opportunities there where he could spotted the problem coming and corrected the course of the effort. When the CEO was pissed at you, he walked thru the door and kicked you out of the office. Then he looked the CEO in the eye and said "this was my fault".

The boss talked only about your success and and your career. His success and his career simply never came up. As he says it "if my subordinates succeed, then I succeed too".


Think about how you and your peers reacted to the shithead boss. How motivated you were to work hard, what the work environment was like. Then think about the second boss, and how you'd have killed for the guy.

In the military you end up in a different role every year or two. While that is happening, your bosses and your subordinates are swapping out even faster. It gives you endless opportunities to learn from the good bosses and also the bad. Every time the introspective person feels loyalty and appreciation towards a good boss, they consider what the boss did to produce that. And when a boss does/says something that damages the work environment for the subordinates, that too should be analyzed. The things that work, you put into your toolbag and try to make them work for you with your subordinates. Some of those tools will work, and some won't be a good fit for you, but you can't help but improve as a leader if you keep thinking about people and keep trying.

I certainly don't mean to imply that I'm anything special. I had my share of failures, both as a leader and as a subordinate. But it was a terrific learning environment if one just had the sense to step back and think about the human dynamics of what was going on.

Books @ Amazon
"If only he had used his genius for niceness, instead of Evil." M. Smart
Last edited by: RangerGress: Jul 21, 17 17:38
Quote Reply
Re: Micromanagers [RangerGress] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
RangerGress wrote:
I don't agree.
People are not "managed". Projects and resources are "managed". People are "led" and that requires a leader, not a manager. That's the fundamental problem.

Leaders have a clue how to get the most out of people. Different kinds of people do best with different amounts of guidance. Someone who is an experienced self-starting hard-charger just needs to be pointed in the right direction. A different kind of person might need more precise, more detailed guidance, and have more thresholds (in the project) ID'd to help boss and subordinate check with each other on progress routinely.

The civilian world talks about leadership a lot, HR provides training on it every once and now, but they're just going thru the motions. It's darn rare, imo, of for any civilian org to have the first clue about leadership. Your average 20yr old Marine Corps Corporal knows more about getting the most out of people then any 10 civilian middle managers. Our HR dept. for example, leads the way in ensuring that middle managers are insulated from any task that could wall fall under the definition of basic leadership.

Human nature hasn't changed since we started walking up right. Yet we struggle with the same BS constantly. The problem is that, in terms of leadership, the civilian world doesn't even know what they don't know. There's no culture of knowledge. There's no mentoring of youngsters to become leaders. It's pathetic.

The problem starts with the decision of whom to promote. Too often, organizations promote someone who is (1) long-tenured; and (2) has good technical skills; but (3) has no real idea how to lead. Having a lot of technical knowledge does not often translate well into being a manager or leader. You have to have people skills, and that is sorely lacking in the candidates that seem to get chosen for advancement in most organizations. While much of the blame should go to the organization's management team, I can't overlook the fact that the threat of discrimination lawsuits often leads to making the "safe" choice rather than the best choice for promotion.

I am the employment lawyer for one of Colorado's largest counties and I can tell you that our HR doesn't just "go through the motions." We have a remarkable array of tools designed to help managers learn how to lead. The problem is that nobody ever wants to take the time to utilize them or learn what they are and the upper management isn't incentivized to make it a priority. This leads to a situation where none of the middle management wants to take ownership for making any hard decisions, so it ultimately falls to HR and our attorney's office to make recommendations, which are basically rubber-stamped. If you leave these decisions to me, I'm always going to recommend the course of action that minimizes our liability, and that may or may not be the best decision for the department or division operationally. For us, it's less about HR and more about lazy managers and executive leadership that doesn't buy into the available process.

''The enemy isn't conservatism. The enemy isn't liberalism. The enemy is bulls**t.''

—Lars-Erik Nelson
Quote Reply
Re: Micromanagers [Billabong] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Billabong wrote:
And are afraid that:
1. Their "subordinates" are smarter than them
2. They do not understand the work

I work for the Navy, one of the officers is on leave right now but is still sending emails to his staff at 1130 at night. Fortunately I do not report to them so no skin off my back.

This, absolutely this. Currently have a manager that has never worked in our industry or for that matter in supply chain. So he spends his day dotting undotted i's and uncrossing crossed t's. We call him Captain Confusion.
Quote Reply
Re: Micromanagers [Danno] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Danno wrote:


The problem starts with the decision of whom to promote. Too often, organizations promote someone who is (1) long-tenured; and (2) has good technical skills; but (3) has no real idea how to lead. Having a lot of technical knowledge does not often translate well into being a manager or leader. You have to have people skills, and that is sorely lacking in the candidates that seem to get chosen for advancement in most organizations. While much of the blame should go to the organization's management team, I can't overlook the fact that the threat of discrimination lawsuits often leads to making the "safe" choice rather than the best choice for promotion.

I am the employment lawyer for one of Colorado's largest counties and I can tell you that our HR doesn't just "go through the motions." We have a remarkable array of tools designed to help managers learn how to lead. The problem is that nobody ever wants to take the time to utilize them or learn what they are and the upper management isn't incentivized to make it a priority. This leads to a situation where none of the middle management wants to take ownership for making any hard decisions, so it ultimately falls to HR and our attorney's office to make recommendations, which are basically rubber-stamped. If you leave these decisions to me, I'm always going to recommend the course of action that minimizes our liability, and that may or may not be the best decision for the department or division operationally. For us, it's less about HR and more about lazy managers and executive leadership that doesn't buy into the available process.

I entirely agree.

Just for clarification tho: I'm not saying that HR is the problem. I'd call them a symptom.

Books @ Amazon
"If only he had used his genius for niceness, instead of Evil." M. Smart
Last edited by: RangerGress: Jul 21, 17 17:43
Quote Reply
Re: Micromanagers [jharris] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Quote:
All he said was don't duplicate your work.

Just to be clear, that's not what I have a problem with.

He wanted them to not duplicate their work.
He wanted me to come up with a system to make sure they don't duplicate their work and then tell them to follow my system.
I told him what my simple system would be, and he didn't like it and wanted more organization around me managing them to not duplicate their work.
We then agreed on some senseless system where I'll meet with them once a week and track the details of their work on a spreadsheet.


Again, this is a simple task, they sit next to each other, and one of them has 30 years of experience.

-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485
Quote Reply
Re: Micromanagers [BarryP] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Well, in my experience project managers have vested interests in project documentation. That may lead him to care less than you do about the micromanagement level of that part of the project.
Quote Reply