Login required to started new threads

Login required to post replies

Prev Next
Re: Rodman won't be happy [slowguy] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
slowguy wrote:
Quote:
Are people really okay with the Federal government telling them where they can go or not based on a single incident?


This is hardly based on a single incident, and you know it. As to whether or not people agree with it, you know as well that some are ok with it, and some are not.

Since the 60s, this type of ban on travel has been used for Algeria, Iraq, Lebanon, Libya, Sudan, Cuba and North Vietnam, at various times and for various durations. I suspect most people realize that the Republic has managed to stand, nonetheless, and aren't too worried about it.

The ban on Cuba has been there (recently reinforced by you know who) since 1960. These bans seem too often to be bans of convenience to promote political policies. Why not just issue a blanket warning that if you go there you're on your own and we're not going to help you. Sure there is always a possibility that some high profile traveler could do a Jane Fonda and come back and say "hey this place isn't so bad", but once government steps in a restricts travel on individual citizens to see for themselves for selected places then you sometimes have to wonder what they are so afraid off.
Quote Reply
Re: Rodman won't be happy [Tibbsy] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Personal responsibility says otherwise.

_________________________________
I'll be what I am
A solitary man
Quote Reply
Re: Rodman won't be happy [cerveloguy] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
cerveloguy wrote:
Why not just issue a blanket warning that if you go there you're on your own and we're not going to help you.

A country is responsible for its citizens, even when they are stupid. So if you allow travel to country X, you can't really abdicate responsibility for your citizens if they go to country X and get in trouble.

Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)
Quote Reply
Re: Rodman won't be happy [cerveloguy] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
 
Quote:
sometimes have to wonder what they are so afraid off.
Isn't it obvious? Our evil government doesn't want the average American to discover what an economic and political wonderland North Korea really is. =)
Quote Reply
Re: Rodman won't be happy [softrun] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
If you go where you were told not to, you should be on your own, period.


You could do that by saying if there is a travel warning, then the government won't offer support but the decision should still be yours. The idea of banning people from traveling to another country is something North Korea does to it's citizens, not something you typically associate with a "free" country.
Quote Reply
Re: Rodman won't be happy [Sanuk] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Sanuk wrote:
It's a little different when talking about a random citizen murdering you, as opposed to what recently happened in DPRK when the state killed an American citizen.

Are people really okay with the Federal government telling them where they can go or not based on a single incident? In terms of foreigners having crime committed against them, North Korea is exceptionally safe and if I decided to go and could get in, I would jump at the chance. I've been too many places where the government and others said I was in grave danger only to be met by incredibly hospitable people.

In 2011, was in Syria, just before the war but the Arab uprising was starting in Egypt and other places. I was fairly close to the Iraq border, alone on a bicycle and knew the risks but I sure wouldn't want to be told by someone in Ottawa that I had to turn around and leave. Once the war started, the borders were closed so that would have left no options.

Governments love to spread fear, it's what they do to get support from voters. Lots of people want because they rely on government to keep them safe but we should have the choice. If something happened to me, I'd be fine without government support, they don't provide much protection anyway.

Personally, no, I am not ok with the government telling me where I can and can't visit. I was just pointing out the fallacy of your previous statement.

I would also jump at the chance to go to DPRK, however, I believe the only way to do that is through heavily guided (meaning heavily guarded) tours where your interactions with regular citizens are almost completely avoided.

Long Chile was a silly place.
Quote Reply
Re: Rodman won't be happy [BCtriguy1] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
I believe the only way to do that is through heavily guided (meaning heavily guarded) tours where your interactions with regular citizens are almost completely avoided.


Yes, you can only visit using a heavily censored tour so I would have no interest either. For some reason however, a lot of Americans are okay with not having the freedom to make your own travel decisions. It was that way with Cuba and now North Korea yet there are a lot of places in the world infinitely more dangerous.


For example, in the southern Philippines, Abu Sayyaf has been kidnapping (and executing) foreigners for years and are still holding a large group. Two Canadians were beheaded last year and there are lots of travel warnings issued by the Canadian government. I lived there for a year and lived in Davao (on the southern island of Mindanao) for a month. I knew the risks and it was my choice. My wife and daughter are there and if the Canadian government issued a travel ban, I wouldn't be able to go visit. North Korea hasn't had anything remotely close to the number of kidnapping and murders of foreigners, but the U.S doesn't have a travel ban there.


I think people are okay with it because they would never travel to North Korea anyway is beside the point. It's the fact that government feels they can tell people where they can and can't travel that would bother me.
Quote Reply
Re: Rodman won't be happy [Sanuk] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Sanuk wrote:
If you go where you were told not to, you should be on your own, period.


You could do that by saying if there is a travel warning, then the government won't offer support but the decision should still be yours. The idea of banning people from traveling to another country is something North Korea does to it's citizens, not something you typically associate with a "free" country.

Yes, agree with this.
Quote Reply
Re: Rodman won't be happy [softrun] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
softrun wrote:
Sanuk wrote:
If you go where you were told not to, you should be on your own, period.


You could do that by saying if there is a travel warning, then the government won't offer support but the decision should still be yours. The idea of banning people from traveling to another country is something North Korea does to it's citizens, not something you typically associate with a "free" country.

Yes, agree with this.

I don't really think the govt can absolve itself of its responsibility to its citizens by just saying it won't do anything if they're detained/captured. At least not any country that pretends to maintain faith with its citizenry.

Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)
Quote Reply
Re: Rodman won't be happy [slowguy] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
I don't really think the govt can absolve itself of its responsibility to its citizens by just saying it won't do anything if they're detained/captured.

What would the American government do if an American citizen was caught in NK after the ban was implemented? Say an American citizen living in Asia decides to join a tour group and NK allows them in (I believe they still do), what would happen if they were caught?

Quote Reply
Re: Rodman won't be happy [Sanuk] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Sanuk wrote:
I don't really think the govt can absolve itself of its responsibility to its citizens by just saying it won't do anything if they're detained/captured.

What would the American government do if an American citizen was caught in NK after the ban was implemented? Say an American citizen living in Asia decides to join a tour group and NK allows them in (I believe they still do), what would happen if they were caught?

This would allow the govt to penalize the traveler by invalidating their passport and potentially fining/imprisoning them.

Basically, the govt has to act in good faith to try to get you back if you're detained in N.Korea. This allows the govt to do so, and then penalize you for making them expend resources and money on that effort. I doubt you'd ever see someone imprisoned for this, but invalidated passport and fines seem reasonable. If you're warned about the risks, then you go anyway, and the govt has to bail you out of your mess, I don't see why it's unreasonable to penalize you for that.

Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)
Quote Reply
Re: Rodman won't be happy [Sanuk] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
  
Quote:
In fact, the murder rate is so low in North Korea that tourists would be far safer going there than staying home.


You're trying a little too hard. It is not in any way "safe" for American citizens to visit North Korea. No. you're unlikely to be the victim of street crime (which seems to be your sole definition of risk) . Yes, you are likely to be arrested for crime, for things that you may not even realize are "crimes."
Last edited by: trail: Jul 22, 17 18:52
Quote Reply
Re: Rodman won't be happy [cerveloguy] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Rodman will probably be granted North Korean citizenship in no time.
Quote Reply
Re: Rodman won't be happy [trail] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
You're trying a little too hard. It is not in any way "safe" for American citizens to visit North Korea.


Climbing K2 isn't "safe" either but in my view, governments shouldn't keep people from trying to climb it if they choose to take the risk. There are lots of things Americans do every single day that are more dangerous than going to North Korea on a tour bus.


I guess I should just be happy I live in a country where I have the right to travel wherever I want. Our government is already way too involved in our lives, the last thing I want is for them to tell me where I can travel even if they pretend that it is for my own good and not for political reasons.
Quote Reply

Prev Next