When immigration policy meets reality (Page 5): Lavender Room: Slowtwitch Forums

Re: When immigration policy meets reality [Spiridon Louis] [ In reply to ]

Jun 22, 17 10:22

Spiridon Louis wrote:

klehner wrote:

A 45 year old sales manager lost his job. He goes on unemployment. Are you suggesting that he ship off to rural Ohio and become a migrant worker? How does he ever get back to the job for which he is actually qualified?

A 40 year old mother of three loses her office job. She goes on unemployment. Are you suggesting that she ship off to central California and become a migrant worker? How will her kids go to school, when the schools there likely don't have the capacity to take in new kids for a couple of months? Where will she live on $7/hour? How does she ever get back to a job for which she is actually qualified?

I'd like to think those people have some money saved up and can make ends meet until they find another job. That's what a responsible person would have done.

If he/she can't ever find another job for which he/she is actually qualified and are broke are you suggesting that the government just support them forever? And if not, what do you suggest?

I don't wade into discussions like this often, but this just rubs me the wrong way.
What an out of touch, privileged BS thing to say.
Even in the best of circumstances, most people, responsible or not, are just one bad accident away from financial ruin.
And we aren't in the best of circumstances since the financial crisis of 2008, no matter what anyone says.
I personally work for the State of NC and since 2008 have gotten exactly (1) .75% raise. 0 cost of living increases, 0 wage adjustments for inflation. And I am thankful I have a decent and steady job. But if that job were to vanish, I'd be hosed.
And I am responsible. My children are always fed, clothed, clean, and I do the best I can to enrich their lives.
But to suggest that being working poor or lacking savings is irresponsible is just head-in-a-hole ignorant.

Now were talking about people that, at best, are making minimum wage just "following" the jobs?
How?
With a car they probably don't own?
Walk?
Or maybe they can just use their frequent flyer miles to hop from Ohio to California?
Hell, even a Greyhound ticket from Columbus to Los Angeles is $250, which represents almost a weeks wages for minimum wage.

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Re: When immigration policy meets reality [ayontz] [ In reply to ]

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Spiridon Louis

Jun 22, 17 10:35

Post #102 of 108 (764 views)

ayontz wrote:

Spiridon Louis wrote:

klehner wrote:

If you are a 45 to sales manager or a 30 yo mother of 3 with an office job (the 2 examples above) and you don't have 3-6 months of living expenses tucked away for an emergency you are irresponsible. That's an opinion so you are free to disagree with it. I guess you are also free to opine that I am out of touch and privileged too. But I'm right. Drive less car, live in less house, take less vacation. But if you'd be instantly hosed if you lost your job that's dumb. Buy a Dave Ramsey book, or The Millionaire Next Door. I frankly find it hilarious that you're calling me ignorant for saying someone with a decent job and no savings is irresponsible. THAT is an ignorant statement.

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Re: When immigration policy meets reality [Spiridon Louis] [ In reply to ]

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ayontz

Jun 22, 17 11:02

Post #103 of 108 (752 views)

You are, in fact, right.
Everyone should have some sort of savings.
I will never dispute that fact.

However, I called you ignorant and out of touch for assuming that everyone does and that everyone would be ok for a few months without a job.
Sales manager, assuming he's single, probably ok.
Single mother of 3? No way. Are you kidding?

Both of my 10+ year old cars are paid for, house is 1250 Sq ft. in the neighborhood we could afford. We don't take vacations.
Daycare alone is $2k a month for 2 kids.

And I don't have even a month's expenses saved up. It scares the hell out of me.
And amongst my fellow teachers, I'm not alone.

I'll leave you alone since it's obvious you could care less about the actual reality of the VAST majority of Americans. Just saying my piece.

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Re: When immigration policy meets reality [Spiridon Louis] [ In reply to ]

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j p o

Jun 22, 17 11:48

Post #104 of 108 (744 views)

Spiridon Louis wrote:

j p o wrote:

Spiridon Louis wrote:

j p o wrote:

Spiridon Louis wrote:

j p o wrote:

You are saying exactly what I am saying you said, you just don't like the way it sounds out loud

No, and until you actually read for comprehension continuing this conversation is an exercise in futility.

I am not against workfare, as I have said many times in this thread. Your thought that a primary answer to welfare is migrant farm work is laughable. I suspect you have little knowledge of farm work or migrant work. Either that or you are being intentionally goofy.

Let me see if I understand your answers
1 - I made up a number and am off by a factor of 3, but my gross error in no way changes any of my answers
2 - the fact that the level of pay requires living in temporary shacks is meaningless
3 - the fact that the kids of migrant workers do not attend school is meaningless and the fact that their living conditions are barely habitable is meaningless
4 - Workfare (again, I am not opposed to some form of this)
5 - see 2 and 3 above
6 - I do not understand the life of a migrant worker
7 - I think you think we should let employers do what they want (you would be wrong)
8 - I don't understand what migrant farm work entails
9 - I don't understand why it is important for the US to have a stable domestic source of food production

Reading your comments I have reached the conclusion that you think migrant farm work isn't suitable for an unemployed American on full government assistance. If I've missed the mark there please tell me how.

With this you are getting closer. I don't think for the pay and conditions migrant farm work is suitable for anyone, US citizen or not. I think it is a disgrace how migrant workers are treated.

So you'd prefer to pay a higher price for the goods to improve farm worker pay and conditions or leave things as they are?

Yes.

Earlier in this thread when I said "the market would set the price" you said "I didn't understand the importance of the US having a stable domestic food source." It seem to me to be a contradiction to what you just said.

Farm subsidies are there for reasons other than giveaways to farm lobbyists.

ETA a little more exposition - Agricultural products are not really a free market. There are multiple layers of subsidies and programs. Some are to maintain prices paid to farmers, some to maintain production, some I'm sure are to pay off allies.

As others have pointed out in this thread, getting rid of illegal alien migrant workers and having all US workers do the work may sound like a great idea. But there is a shit ton (no idea if there is a subsidy for tons of shit) of ripple effect. Right now we exploit a vulnerable work force and use very cheap labor. If we just 'let the market set the price' there is a good chance US products rise in price in comparison to foreign products. Which then impacts our domestic production capability, and then you are back to various price supports, etc.

This is not a simple area.

I'm beginning to think that we are much more fucked than I thought.

Last edited by: j p o: Jun 22, 17 11:59

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Re: When immigration policy meets reality [j p o] [ In reply to ]

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oldandslow

Jun 22, 17 12:39

Post #105 of 108 (736 views)

Quote:

This is not a simple area.

It is really simple if you have a very clear ideology, and simply ignore all other pesky realities that don't align with it.

Last edited by: oldandslow: Jun 22, 17 13:57

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Re: When immigration policy meets reality [ayontz] [ In reply to ]

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Spiridon Louis

Jun 22, 17 14:08

Post #106 of 108 (725 views)

ayontz wrote:

I didn't say everyone DOES have savings, I said they SHOULD. And people who can and don't are stupid, and you are right, I don't bother myself to worry about other people's self imposed problems. But just for the record, I bought Dave Ramsey's program for all 50 of my employees 2 years ago and those who have stuck with it are out of debt and saving money. Most of them make less than a teacher does.

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Re: When immigration policy meets reality [oldandslow] [ In reply to ]

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Spiridon Louis

Jun 22, 17 14:18

Post #107 of 108 (721 views)

oldandslow wrote:

Quote:

This is not a simple area.

It is really simple if you have a very clear ideology, and simply ignore all other pesky realities that don't align with it.

Fair enough. And good last post by jpo too. But it's also impossible to get anything done if you have no ideology and bog everything down with "that won't work." Tough choices have to be made. I stand for not accepting illegal immigrants as part of our work force and putting as many Americans as possible to work. When that's implemented there may be some bumps, there may be a place for LEGAL transient workers, and the market may have to get to work, and the government might need to even aid in the steering of that market, but ideally as minimally as possible. That's what I believe. That's what I would do. And I think the good would outweigh the bad if we did it. What we're doing now isn't working, IMO. In fact, what we're doing now is ILLEGAL.

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Re: When immigration policy meets reality [Spiridon Louis] [ In reply to ]

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oldandslow

Jun 24, 17 6:22

Post #108 of 108 (682 views)

Quote:

But it's also impossible to get anything done if you have no ideology and bog everything down with "that won't work."

Everyone has an ideology, whether it aligns with yours or not. Your viewpoint on this topic is noted, but it is at the far fringe, and you don't get to merely complain "C'mon, give it a try" when a large majority covering a vast spectrum of viewpoints support some form of comprehensive reform which you have incessantly opposed for decades.

Quote:

I stand for not accepting illegal immigrants as part of our work force and putting as many Americans as possible to work. When that's implemented ...

And that is a combination of misstating the issue (Americans do not want and cannot do much of the work that the undocumented perform), setting impossible standards (we are already basically at "full employment"), putting forth an unworkable, economically destructive, and widely opposed ultimatum,.... and when that fails as policy (as it should), blocking all other efforts to put forth policies which would responsibly reduce the number of undocumented workers AND keep large sectors of the economy strong. You are the one intransigently pushing "All or nothing" (actually "all,....... and then maybe, just maybe something, but not really...."). That's the translation of the sentence below.

Quote:

When that's implemented (not accepting illegal immigrants as part of our work force) there may be some bumps, there may be a place for LEGAL transient workers, and the market may have to get to work, and the government might need to even aid in the steering of that market, but ideally as minimally as possible.

There is simply no step forward based on that ultimatum.

Last edited by: oldandslow: Jun 24, 17 17:21

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