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Re: Mike Pence used a private email account while he was governor [AlanShearer] [ In reply to ]
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AlanShearer wrote:
Not overthinking it.

Just because it's simple in your experience doesn't mean that's always the case.

Vitus says this is what happens in the private sector all the time -- that companies easily and often draw distinct lines that are easy to follow, all the time, without exception. Yet that's not true. Can't tell you the number of times I've been told, "I'm going to be out of town, so send it to this email address." Or something to that effect.

And yes, you might restrict your personal email to just family and close friends, but not everyone does. This is especially true for high level public officials, who have all kinds of contacts. It gets even more complicated when there are state and local laws prohibiting the use of public resources for the conduct of political activities. So they can't use the gov't email for that, they can either use a separate political account, or their own personal email. And that's often where things get blurred, as there isn't always a solid line between official business and political activities, and even when there is, the players often are on both sides of that line.

I don't think there is really an argument about the one offs (at least from me). It is the routine use that boggles my mind. I'm not sure we know how much Pence used his, but we know about Clinton.

The routine use of non-government email for government business is what drives people nuts.

I'm beginning to think that we are much more fucked than I thought.
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Re: Mike Pence used a private email account while he was governor [Uncle Arqyle] [ In reply to ]
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Uncle Arqyle wrote:
JSA wrote:
Uncle Arqyle wrote:
Also, what about text exchanges using Android/iPhones? Carriers keep all those texts for a specified amount of time and can be hacked.


The problem is, they don't. They keep a record of the text (i.e., to, from, time, date) but not the context. Some carriers keep the content of the text for short periods of time. Many don't keep any of the contents.

If it is a public official, then the text is a public record subject to retention and disclosure laws. The problem with text messages is that they are almost never retained by the public entity. The message is captured only on the individual phone. If it is a public-entity-issued phone over which the public entity still have control, one can argue the public entity is retaining the information. But, that is a weak argument and often public officials use personal phones.


You are wrong. I have first hand knowledge of what they keep. I have personally seen it in action.


I have issued subpoenas for text messages on multiple occasions to multiple different carriers. I know, for a fact, that most carriers do not maintain the contents of text message, and for those that do, it is for very short periods of time.


EDIT TO ADD:

Verizon is the only one of the top four carriers that retains text message content, however, and it keeps that for three to five days. Call detail records, meanwhile, are retained for one year by Verizon, five years for T-Mobile (two years for pre-paid), five to seven years for AT&T, and 18 to 24 months for Sprint.




If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

Emery's Third Coast Triathlon | Tri Wisconsin Triathlon Team | Push Endurance | GLWR
Last edited by: JSA: Mar 3, 17 10:46
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Re: Mike Pence used a private email account while he was governor [patf] [ In reply to ]
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No one's every sent you I'm sick today message from gmail? or a late night approval for something sent by gmail because they are out and their PC is at home?

Well, to be fair I don't have a lot of friends so don't use my personal e-mail too often...

While it is not the norm, non-confidential emails sometimes come from personal accounts for the reasons Alan mentions.

I can see how the line is crossed in receiving them, I just can't see what's so hard about dealing with them after the fact. You can read it, and simply file it or click forward to your other e-mail and you're done. I don't see that as being too onerous, particularly when you know you are going to be under scrutiny and in Pence's case, after making such a public appeal to say Clinton isn't fit to be President for using a personal e-mail server.

Sometimes politicians seem pretty good at setting themselves up for problems.

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Re: Mike Pence used a private email account while he was governor [JSA] [ In reply to ]
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JSA wrote:
Uncle Arqyle wrote:
JSA wrote:
Uncle Arqyle wrote:
Also, what about text exchanges using Android/iPhones? Carriers keep all those texts for a specified amount of time and can be hacked.


The problem is, they don't. They keep a record of the text (i.e., to, from, time, date) but not the context. Some carriers keep the content of the text for short periods of time. Many don't keep any of the contents.

If it is a public official, then the text is a public record subject to retention and disclosure laws. The problem with text messages is that they are almost never retained by the public entity. The message is captured only on the individual phone. If it is a public-entity-issued phone over which the public entity still have control, one can argue the public entity is retaining the information. But, that is a weak argument and often public officials use personal phones.


You are wrong. I have first hand knowledge of what they keep. I have personally seen it in action.


I have issued subpoenas for text messages on multiple occasions to multiple different carriers. I know, for a fact, that most carriers do not maintain the contents of text message, and for those that do, it is for very short periods of time.


EDIT TO ADD:

Verizon is the only one of the top four carriers that retains text message content, however, and it keeps that for three to five days. Call detail records, meanwhile, are retained for one year by Verizon, five years for T-Mobile (two years for pre-paid), five to seven years for AT&T, and 18 to 24 months for Sprint.



I have tested backup services (that I never signed up for) and received on my personal device text messages that were over two years old. This was from AT&T.
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Re: Mike Pence used a private email account while he was governor [Sanuk] [ In reply to ]
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I can see how the line is crossed in receiving them, I just can't see what's so hard about dealing with them after the fact. You can read it, and simply file it or click forward to your other e-mail and you're done.

Exactly. Just because some people don't do that doesn't make it difficult.

I am especially unsympathetic to claims that political lobbying and official business are too difficult to tell apart, so poor little state governors just can't really figure out whether they're personal matters or official business. Give me a break. It's just that kind of thing that I think they're trying to hide by using personal accounts.









"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."
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Re: Mike Pence used a private email account while he was governor [Uncle Arqyle] [ In reply to ]
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Uncle Arqyle wrote:
JSA wrote:
Uncle Arqyle wrote:
JSA wrote:
Uncle Arqyle wrote:
Also, what about text exchanges using Android/iPhones? Carriers keep all those texts for a specified amount of time and can be hacked.


The problem is, they don't. They keep a record of the text (i.e., to, from, time, date) but not the context. Some carriers keep the content of the text for short periods of time. Many don't keep any of the contents.

If it is a public official, then the text is a public record subject to retention and disclosure laws. The problem with text messages is that they are almost never retained by the public entity. The message is captured only on the individual phone. If it is a public-entity-issued phone over which the public entity still have control, one can argue the public entity is retaining the information. But, that is a weak argument and often public officials use personal phones.


You are wrong. I have first hand knowledge of what they keep. I have personally seen it in action.


I have issued subpoenas for text messages on multiple occasions to multiple different carriers. I know, for a fact, that most carriers do not maintain the contents of text message, and for those that do, it is for very short periods of time.


EDIT TO ADD:

Verizon is the only one of the top four carriers that retains text message content, however, and it keeps that for three to five days. Call detail records, meanwhile, are retained for one year by Verizon, five years for T-Mobile (two years for pre-paid), five to seven years for AT&T, and 18 to 24 months for Sprint.




I have tested backup services (that I never signed up for) and received on my personal device text messages that were over two years old. This was from AT&T.

That's not the same thing. AT&T offers a text message back-up service called "Messages Backup & Sync" which links your AT&T device to a cloud-based back-up server, no different than your iTunes account. You may not have signed up for it, but you obviously were given free usage for some reason (perhaps a free trial to induce you to purchase the service). This is a select service and is not done for all clients.

If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

Emery's Third Coast Triathlon | Tri Wisconsin Triathlon Team | Push Endurance | GLWR
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Re: Mike Pence used a private email account while he was governor [AlanShearer] [ In reply to ]
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AlanShearer wrote:
The "only" reason?
No excuse? Ever?

What do you do when there's a private exchange that evolves into official business?
At the minimum you start cc'ing your official email account and if the replies are only directed back at you and not reply all, then you forward those emails to your official account.

AlanShearer wrote:
What do you do when the communication contains both private and official business?
Either break the thread out into separate conversations or start cc'ing and forwarding to your official account. Edit out the personal stuff and forward if you feel the need.

AlanShearer wrote:
What do you do when you receive an email on your private account that is official in nature, and what that's not immediately clear?
Forward it to your official account.

AlanShearer wrote:
What do you do you don't have immediate access to the gov't account (server down, maintenance, left phone behind, etc.), but you have an immediate need to communicate via email?
Forward it all to your official account.

AlanShearer wrote:
Too much black and white thinking here.

It's not really that hard...

Kevin

http://kevinmetcalfe.dreamhosters.com
My Strava
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Re: Mike Pence used a private email account while he was governor [JSA] [ In reply to ]
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JSA wrote:
Uncle Arqyle wrote:
JSA wrote:
Uncle Arqyle wrote:
JSA wrote:
Uncle Arqyle wrote:
Also, what about text exchanges using Android/iPhones? Carriers keep all those texts for a specified amount of time and can be hacked.


The problem is, they don't. They keep a record of the text (i.e., to, from, time, date) but not the context. Some carriers keep the content of the text for short periods of time. Many don't keep any of the contents.

If it is a public official, then the text is a public record subject to retention and disclosure laws. The problem with text messages is that they are almost never retained by the public entity. The message is captured only on the individual phone. If it is a public-entity-issued phone over which the public entity still have control, one can argue the public entity is retaining the information. But, that is a weak argument and often public officials use personal phones.


You are wrong. I have first hand knowledge of what they keep. I have personally seen it in action.


I have issued subpoenas for text messages on multiple occasions to multiple different carriers. I know, for a fact, that most carriers do not maintain the contents of text message, and for those that do, it is for very short periods of time.


EDIT TO ADD:

Verizon is the only one of the top four carriers that retains text message content, however, and it keeps that for three to five days. Call detail records, meanwhile, are retained for one year by Verizon, five years for T-Mobile (two years for pre-paid), five to seven years for AT&T, and 18 to 24 months for Sprint.




I have tested backup services (that I never signed up for) and received on my personal device text messages that were over two years old. This was from AT&T.


That's not the same thing. AT&T offers a text message back-up service called "Messages Backup & Sync" which links your AT&T device to a cloud-based back-up server, no different than your iTunes account. You may not have signed up for it, but you obviously were given free usage for some reason (perhaps a free trial to induce you to purchase the service). This is a select service and is not done for all clients.

I tested the service before it was live, I received text messages that were so old it was before the service was even being scoped. My texts were being stored from several years prior.. They did not selectively backup my text messages for any specific purpose and if they did, then they were also doing it to others.
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Re: Mike Pence used a private email account while he was governor [Uncle Arqyle] [ In reply to ]
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I don't think so. I've been down this road several times.

If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

Emery's Third Coast Triathlon | Tri Wisconsin Triathlon Team | Push Endurance | GLWR
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Re: Mike Pence used a private email account while he was governor [orchidrun] [ In reply to ]
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orchidrun wrote:
I believe Pence used his personal email out of convenience.....I believe Hillary used it (and her server) due to subterfuge.

Awww, how cute... So you're saying Pence is only a sloppy dumbass instead then? I actually think he's smart/experienced enough to know what he was doing and just figured he'd get away with it, much like the other who no doubt was trying to hide her tracks.
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Re: Mike Pence used a private email account while he was governor [OneGoodLeg] [ In reply to ]
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OneGoodLeg wrote:
orchidrun wrote:
I believe Pence used his personal email out of convenience.....I believe Hillary used it (and her server) due to subterfuge.


Awww, how cute... So you're saying Pence is only a sloppy dumbass instead then? I actually think he's smart/experienced enough to know what he was doing and just figured he'd get away with it, much like the other who no doubt was trying to hide her tracks.


So ... how, exactly does one conceal emails by using a public AOL account that was known by the IN government during the time of its use?

Now, if he could pull that off, THAT would be cute!

EDIT TO ADD: I posted a link to the actual report by the Indiana Star that explicitly said no laws or rules were broken by Pence.

If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

Emery's Third Coast Triathlon | Tri Wisconsin Triathlon Team | Push Endurance | GLWR
Last edited by: JSA: Mar 3, 17 17:39
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Re: Mike Pence used a private email account while he was governor [OneGoodLeg] [ In reply to ]
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I believe Pence used his personal email out of convenience.....I believe Hillary used it (and her server) due to subterfuge.


Awww, how cute... So you're saying Pence is only a sloppy dumbass instead then?


Yeah, but he believes it, that makes it a slam dunk.
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