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Re: Canada - WTF!???? [slowguy] [ In reply to ]
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<snort>

Basic honesty! Ha!

Here's some of what you said, commodore:


So, I understand that people are horrified by what he did, but it seems to me this is a commonplace type of situation. The first sentence tells you what you need to know. The man was found "not criminally responsible" for his actions. He was hospitalized, he's now stable and on suitable medications to control his schizophrenia, and so he's being released. That sort of thing happens all the time, in Canada I'm sure, and in the US. Yes, his actions in this case were particularly nasty, but that doesn't really change the way the law works with regard to insanity pleas.
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I agree that it makes one uncomfortable to be simply asked to trust that this guy will stay on his meds. However, I would also have questions about legal requirement forcing a person to ingest chemicals or undergo medical treatment. Not only is it costly to monitor him for the rest of his life, but there are civil rights questions to be answered, in my mind.
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The point is, this shouldn't be some surprising or shocking thing, and it's certainly not a WTF that is singular to Canada. This is how it works with people who are found to be not guilty by reason of insanity . . . I know some of you don't like it, but in a civilized society based on rule of law, you don't get to just restrict someone's rights for the rest of their lives . . . It might make us feel better if he was required to prove that he's taking his meds for the rest of his life, but that's not the law, and I think that might raise some civili liberties questions.

Basically, you couldn't be more wrong. It IS shocking, it's not commonplace in the US, and it has nothing to do with anyone's civil rights. Just admit it. Or at least shut up. Don't call my honesty into question because you can't admit you're flat wrong.










"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."
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Re: Canada - WTF!???? [rick_pcfl] [ In reply to ]
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Over in the other forum there is a story about a guy from the states who was killed by a DUI driver. It was her third DUI. One of the previous ones involved a fatality. We have the same problem in Canada. I'm not saying they are equivalent situations but allowing people who have done terrible things the opportunity to try again isn't unique to either side of the border. . Having treated schizophrenic patients (sometimes because I can't get them to show up for their psychiatrist appointments) I think there is a good chance he will go off his meds. Often what happens is these patients are treated and do quite well but don't like the side effects of their meds and stop them. They think they will recognize and can handle a relapse. Usually they can't. I think Britain has a more successful model where they have what they call community psychiatric workers who moniter schizophrenics and have the authority to hospitalize them if they seem to be going off the rails. Not sure if they can force them to take meds though.

rick_pcfl wrote:
A man who killed a fellow passenger on a bus, beheaded him and cannibalized him is now free - after 8 years. WTF????

http://www.foxnews.com/...d-total-freedom.html


WINNIPEG, Manitoba – A Canadian man who was found not criminally responsible for beheading and cannibalizing a fellow passenger on a Greyhound bus has been granted his freedom.
Manitoba’s Criminal Code Review Board announced Friday it has given Will Baker, formerly known as Vince Li, an absolute discharge, meaning he is longer subject to monitoring.
Baker, a diagnosed schizophrenic, killed Tim McLean, a young carnival worker who was a complete stranger to Baker, in 2008. A year later he was found not criminally responsible due to mental illness.
McLean’s mother, Carol de Delley, has been outspoken against granting Baker freedom, saying there would be no way to ensure he continued to take his medication.
She declined comment in a post on Facebook Friday, saying “I have no words.”
Baker was initially kept in a secure wing of a psychiatric hospital but was given more freedom every year.
He has been living on his own in a Winnipeg apartment since November, but was still subject to monitoring to ensure he took his medication.
Baker’s doctor, Jeffrey Waldman, told the board earlier this week that he is confident Baker will remain on his medication and will continue to work with his treatment team if released. Waldman testified that Baker knows it’s the medication that keeps his illness at bay.
In a written decision, the review board said it “is of the opinion that the weight of evidence does not substantiate that Mr. Baker poses a significant threat to the safety of the public.”
Waldman said Baker plans to visit his native China if released but would live in Winnipeg for the next two to three years. He is on the waiting list for a post-secondary training program and plans on establishing a career in the city. Baker emigrated to Canada from China in 2001 and became a Canadian citizen four years ago.
Baker sat next to the 22-year-old McLean on the bus after the man smiled at him and asked how he was doing.
Baker said he heard the voice of God telling him to kill the man or “die immediately.”
He repeatedly stabbed McLean while he fought for his life. As passengers fled the bus, Baker continued stabbing and mutilating the body before he was arrested. He severed McLean’s head, displaying it to some of the passengers outside the bus, witnesses said.
The Supreme Court of Canada ruled in 1999 that a review board must order an absolute discharge if a person doesn’t pose a significant threat to public safety.
The ruling added there must be clear evidence of a significant risk to the public for the review board to continue imposing conditions after a person is found not criminally responsible.
Opposition Conservative member of Parliament James Bezan also criticized Baker’s release. He said earlier in the week it would be an insult to de Delley and McLean’s other relatives.
Baker’s defenders include Chris Summerville, executive director of the Manitoba Schizophrenia Society, who has met and worked with him over the years.
“He is no longer a violent person,” Summerville said. “I will say, yes, he absolutely understands that he has to (take his medication) and has a desire to live a responsible, moral life and never succumb to psychotic episodes and not to hurt anybody ever again.”

They constantly try to escape from the darkness outside and within
Dreaming of systems so perfect that no one will need to be good T.S. Eliot

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Re: Canada - WTF!???? [slowguy] [ In reply to ]
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slowguy wrote:
It might make us feel better if he was required to prove that he's taking his meds for the rest of his life, but that's not the law, and I think that might raise some civili liberties questions.

I love how in a civilised society the civil liberties of the perpetrator outweigh the civil liberties of the victims (kind of hard to have any civil liberties 6 foot under) and the rest of society.

Don't worry, the US and Canada are not the only countries dealing with this type of thing.
Australia also has these issues. The Lindt Cafe siege is a perfect example. The crazy fuck was given bail while on attempted murder charges and he then went on to kill during the siege.
Same goes for the grub that drove his car through a crowded mall in Melbourne recently. Out on bail after being charged with serious crimes.
BTW, I refuse to name these cowards and give them and their actions any legitimacy.

Not having a go at you snowman, just picked up not the above (because it is unfortunately true)
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Re: Canada - WTF!???? [slowguy] [ In reply to ]
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slowguy wrote:
vitus979 wrote:
I don't disagree, but the lack of monitoring does present a problem. It sounds like he's only stable because of the medication. How do you ensure he keeps taking it if you don't monitor him? I have no idea what the specific legal solutions for that are in Canada- or here, really- but it sure seems like you could and should come up with a long term monitoring plan for him to make sure he's still taking the drugs and still stable.

I agree that it makes one uncomfortable to be simply asked to trust that this guy will stay on his meds. However, I would also have questions about legal requirement forcing a person to ingest chemicals or undergo medical treatment. Not only is it costly to monitor him for the rest of his life, but there are civil rights questions to be answered, in my mind.

For the most part I am on your side. But in these type of cases I just can't do it. I could not tell all the people around him when he is released that they have to take the risk.

I have no desire to torture him or execute him. But he is simply too dangerous to let back out in society. We need a different way to deal with situations like this than prison, hospitalized or free.

I'm beginning to think that we are much more fucked than I thought.
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Re: Canada - WTF!???? [Andrew69] [ In reply to ]
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I love how in a civilised society the civil liberties of the perpetrator outweigh the civil liberties of the victims (kind of hard to have any civil liberties 6 foot under) and the rest of society.
Always a tough balancing act. In the type of case we're talking about, the civil liberties of the victim are moot, because as you pointed out, they're dead. I don't think you and I have a civil liberty that protects us from being victims of crimes a person might or might not ever commit. If we did, then a whole shitload of people who might someday commit a crime would be locked up instead of roaming free.

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Australia also has these issues. The Lindt Cafe siege is a perfect example. The crazy fuck was given bail while on attempted murder charges and he then went on to kill during the siege.
Same goes for the grub that drove his car through a crowded mall in Melbourne recently. Out on bail after being charged with serious crimes.

Different thing, I think. I expect the court could have withheld bail if they felt these gents were dangerous, if it works like in the U.S. Seems like they made a poor decision, but I'm not sure that's a good analogue for the type of case we're talking about here.

Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)
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Re: Canada - WTF!???? [j p o] [ In reply to ]
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But in these type of cases I just can't do it. I could not tell all the people around him when he is released that they have to take the risk.

They're taking that risk all the time, whether they know it or not. There are plenty of bad guys out there who are very likely to commit new crimes after they've served their sentences. The difference being, we're much more sure they'll break the law because they did so on purpose the first time. In the type of case we're talking about, the person never intended to break the law. The question isn't their intent. It's whether or not they can be relied on to take their medication.

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We need a different way to deal with situations like this than prison, hospitalized or free.

I don't necessarily disagree. I just think we need to formulate a solution with the tricky issues of civil liberties as part of the equation, instead of simply writing those off as so many are eager and willing to do in the name of "safety."

Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)
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