OK Vitus,

I'm from Missouri......have at it. Show me. Where on this thread have I personally attacked anyone participating in this discussion.

I can easily point to two people who would consider themselves Christians who have personally attacked me. .....

.....and yes I include yourself among the two.

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"A society is defined not only by what it creates, but by what it refuses to destroy."
John Sawhill

Matt, the subject line of your original post is a personal attack. You post a thread titled "This is why the religious right in this country scares me," and then post a story about how Rudolph evaded authorities for five years. You're telling me you don't see that as an attempt to smear the entire religious right as people who support murderers? Give me a break. I can't take that much disingenuousness. And that crack about large numbers of people who call themselves Christian, but are really more like Nazis- no, not at all a personal attack.

I can easily point to two people who would consider themselves Christians who have personally attacked me. ..... .....and yes I include yourself among the two.

How's that?

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"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."

Vitus...you obviously don't know what a personal attack is.

This is a personal attack;

"Something tells me this was not an educated guess. Nothing in this or any of your posts indicates any level of education."

You see the difference? A PERSON was attacked...I merely expressed fear of a group. I didn't name anyone, I didn't single anyone out, I didn't attack or question the motives of any individual participating in the discussion.

You have singled me out you have made false accusations and questioned my motives. Tyrius' attack is pretty clear for all to see and needs no explanation.

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"A society is defined not only by what it creates, but by what it refuses to destroy."
John Sawhill

You see the difference? A PERSON was attacked

Perhaps, but I didn't write that. You'll have to excuse me if I refuse to take responsibility for it.

I merely expressed fear of a group. I didn't name anyone, I didn't single anyone out, I didn't attack or question the motives of any individual participating in the discussion.

"Merely" expressed fear of a group? You think that if you make the accusation that an entire group is to be feared, knowing that many here consider themselves part of that group (and knowing that you yourself consider them part of that group), it doesn't count as a personal attack?

You have singled me out you have made false accusations and questioned my motives.

Singled you out? False accusations? How's that?

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"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."

Vitus,

what the hell are you talking about? First you accuse me of making nasty personal attacks...you went as far as to say that you had to "wade through them" to try and find any substance in my posts...then you "refuse to take responsibility for it"

As for the religious right...it is NOT a homogenous group...it does not have a defined membership, it is not an organization, its a LABEL. If anyone is insulted by the original post in this thread I can only assume that they in some way identify or sympathize with Eric Rudolph and his beliefs...because thats where my criticism is directed and where my fear comes from and nowhere else.

I'm still waiting for you to point out to me all the nasty personal attacks you've had to wade through...if you can't find any I guess an apology would be in order....and don't worry I'll forgive you...its the Christian thing to do.

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"A society is defined not only by what it creates, but by what it refuses to destroy."
John Sawhill

There's a huge difference between the religious right folks and extremists. I consider myself very much a religious rightwing'd person - conservative on most issues and clinging to traditional values and morals. However, as such, it means that I think it's a sin to go out bombing people who don't believe what I believe. Those folks are just plain ol' nuts, IMO.

I have to back up vitus on this one. Your entire thesis is an attack on a broad group of people which would arguably include me. You then compound the problem by saying that recognizing your attack indicates that I sympathize with the Eric Roudolph's of the world.

It was meant as an attack, but I actually took it to mean that you must have some security issues in that you would actually fear such people. This observation is from someone who often describes himself as a devout coward, yet I find the Eric Rudolph's of the world about as intimidating as those terrorists who captured the GI Joe doll.

Sorry you feel personally attacked. Just because I am a Christian it does not mean I always turn the other cheek. When insulted, threatened, or potential harm is imminent I will choose to fight back. As a Christian I can do so knowing if I am wrong and ask Gods forgiveness it will be granted. If you are going to deny you have not "attacked" a whole section of this country who call themselves Christian then I can not have a dialogue with you. You are being intellectually dishonest with the way you covertly have chosen to argue your point.

I'm ignoring all the craziness above and the direction this thread has gone so far.

That being said, don't you think "As a Christian I can do so knowing if I am wrong and ask Gods forgiveness it will be granted" is at a minimum a very slippery slope from a moral perspective? And while it may exist, I'm not personally aware of any language in the Bible that says anything like that.

Obviously you're really not supposed to justify your sins by saying "Well, God will just forgive me anyways, so I can go ahead and do things I know to be wrong." However, there are times when you feel the need to take actions that might be considered wrong by some, and you can take comfort in the fact that God will forgive your sins if you repent and ask for his grace.

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Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)

While I very much disagree with MattinSF's viewpoint, I will sadly have to agree that this his original post is not a "personal attack". To you it may feel that way, but that is only a result of you feeling some sort of a link to the "religious right".

I'll admit if I'm wrong, and my understanding may not be clear enough, but to me it is not a personal attack if someone is commenting on a group at-large (even if it is an over-the-top or caustic statement). I'm sure there are several good points about why it might be a personal attack that I'm missing.

I also really need to go reread his original post as I'm not sure now if he was saying ALL of the religious right support murderers, or if he was trying to say that given the right odd circumstances that a subsection of the religious right will do things that scare him. Not to hard to make the same statement about any other group though.

Just to point something out. Matt said that anyone who took offense to his original post must be a Rudolph sympathizer. So basically, since he decided to lump the religious right into a group that is full of potential terrorists, and since he decided to label Rudolph as a member of the vast "Religious Right", anyone who doesn't agree and is offended by being lumped in with lunatics and terrorists must be a Rudolph sympathizer? That's lame, and obviously directed straight at religious conservatives on this board. I won't even get into equating Hitler and the religious right.

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Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)

I think Matt just may need a couple of hugs, that might help.

I didn't really follow the thread because I didn't really care for what he was claiming. However, I was specifically replying to vitus' specific mention that the title of the name was a personal attack, but I definitely understand what you are saying.

Love you armytriguy, but you might want to rework your statement about God's forgiveness a bit. I don't think it came out quite the way you meant.

If you're already expecting forgiveness when you plan/commit a sin, that's not repentence, that's asking for a free pass.



So here's how I see this thread

1) Matt used a poor choice of words when equating the Rudolph sympathizers with the religious right, regardless of any overlap between the 2 groups. If it were me, I would have edited that a long time ago.

2) Matt's comments, however, do not constitute a personal attack, since they weren't aimes at any particular person. Still, I can see how they might offend some people.

3) This sematics nonsense detracts form Matt's original point, which is (as I understand it) that it's shocking that Rudolph got the support, both possible direct and certainly indirect, from the locals and others.

4) I'm curious if anyone knows exactly what country songs were written about his case and what they say.

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When insulted, threatened, or potential harm is imminent I will choose to fight back. As a Christian I can do so knowing if I am wrong and ask Gods forgiveness it will be granted.

Dude, that is hilarious! Where the hell did you come up with that? and how does it separate you from the suicide bombers who are after a crack at 70 virgins? I'm hoping that's not the interpretation my kids pick up in religion class!

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kangaroo -- please do not read or respond to any of my posts

[reply][b]"You think he was an extreme right wing Bhuddist perhaps?"[/b]

I don't know what religion he is/was. I choose not to make an ignorant comment without knowing the facts.

[b]"OK I made an educated guess on the Christian part...betcha $100 I'm right."[/b]

Something tells me this was not an educated guess. Nothing in this or any of your posts indicates any level of education.

[b]"As for the technical definition of "Christian" I have to agree with you...there are an awful lot of people in this country who claim to be Christians but whose beliefs are more Hitler like than Christ like...oops I said Hitler.'[/b]

I am afraid to ask but what in world are you trying to prove here? I will readily admit there are some pretty bizarre behaviors by some of those way out on the far right but no different than some environmental whacko on the far left. I do not categorize and define everyone on the left by those few on the fringe. Your broad brushed stroke of all Christians was ignorant and really shows a level of intolerance and non acceptance of a large group of people in our country who are very main stream and are just trying to live their lives in a moral ethical manner.[/reply]

He probably has a problem with the moral ethical manner!

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Alright I should not have written that at 0445 on my way out the door on a trip. I am sure your kids will not get the wrong message in their religion class. I should have said that I do not go around doing whatever the heck I want because God will forgive me. It was meant to say that IF I harmed someone with words or deeds I could go to God, ask forgiveness, and because of his Grace be forgiven. It was not a "carte blanche" statement that Christians can do what they want. I do however feel there are times when it is acceptable to fight back when attacked verbally or physically. I may be overly sensitive about matts posting, and if so I am sorry. I feel he was making a very broad brushed criticism of Christians a religious group I happen to belong too.

Agreed. Actions taken w/o forethought or malice are what I believe God will most readily forgive. Matt did paint with a pretty broad brush, but I do believe that abortion clinic bombers (like Rudolph) and the like that are provoked into action by extremists who identify themselves as Christians, and who claim to be acting in accordance with God's will, will have a difficult time explaining their earthly actions when the time comes.

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kangaroo -- please do not read or respond to any of my posts