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Re: Tell Me Again How the Pope Ended Communism??? [tri_bri2] [ In reply to ]
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Well, in all fairness, there were plenty of Democrats and liberals that did much of the heavy lifting in resisting communism. Every President from Truman through Reagan stood firm, with the possible exception of Carter. Congress was in the hands of Democrats almost exclusively through 1994. There were part of, and often leaders of the team.

It is only recently that liberals and Democrats have been so isolationist, really only since 2000 in a big way. It used to be "pay any price, bear any burden" for both parties. Politics used to stop at the water's edge. Those days are over, but hopefully not forever.
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Re: Tell Me Again How the Pope Ended Communism??? [el fuser] [ In reply to ]
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So Andrei Amalrik is a "leading liberal?" Leading liberals in this country did not take much heed of Russian dissidents such as he and Sakharov--even though they knew a lot more about what was really going on there than our diplomats did. But again--no one (of any political influence) in the US/NATO--would have put much stock in Amalrik's predicitions. In fact, one of his predicitons about the cause of the fall of the USSR was a major Sino-Soviet war, which obviously never happened.

Regardless, our official policy towards the Soviet Union was of "containment" up to the late '60s (Truman, Eisenhower, Kennedy, Johnson), then "detente" in the late '60s/early '70s (Nixon/Kissinger). Neither was a strategy that assumed the USSR would collapse of its own weight--in fact detente assumed the status quo was a good thing and that anything that upset the staus quo was bad. Jimmy Carter's foreign policy of "human rights" may actually have inspired some dissidents in communist countries, and for that he deserves some credit. But he was pretty careful not to directly confront the USSR, and in fact, in his reelection campaign he basically flat out said Reagan would cause WW III.
Last edited by: tri_bri2: Apr 4, 05 11:51
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Re: Tell Me Again How the Pope Ended Communism??? [tri_bri2] [ In reply to ]
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You said, "No one else".

That's false. Look in any college level world history book from the era and you'll learn the truth.
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Re: Tell Me Again How the Pope Ended Communism??? [el fuser] [ In reply to ]
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Look in any college level world history book


How can you learn the truth in college? Did you see the report on liberals in college? http://www.washingtonpost.com/...A8427-2005Mar28.html 65% said the government should guaranty full employment--that is called communism (socialism with a gun to your head).
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Re: Tell Me Again How the Pope Ended Communism??? [Monk] [ In reply to ]
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How can you learn the truth in college?

www.bju.edu
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Re: Tell Me Again How the Pope Ended Communism??? [el fuser] [ In reply to ]
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I never read any history books that predicted the future. So, I doubt any history book "of the era" would have made such a prediction. I could not find my college world history book, but I did find my college econ book, Economics by Fusfeld, c. 1972. He devoted a whole chapter to Marxist Socialism in the Soviet Union, and never once indicated that he thought their system would eventually fail. In fact, quite the opposite. He indicated they had challenges to meet in doing their centralized planning, but by and large, they had overcome them and were doing well.
Last edited by: tri_bri2: Apr 5, 05 6:59
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Re: Tell Me Again How the Pope Ended Communism??? [tri_bri2] [ In reply to ]
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Surely you aren't so naive as to expect that just because you can't find any books or passages, that they therefore must not exist?

To help you out, I have performed a 10 second google search for reference works. This is one of the first pages I found. I hope this helps you out, as your history education (and education in general, if your research skills are any indication) was obviously defective.

Or, you can just go on and pretend that Reagan was an intellectual visionary that dreamt up the collapse of the Soviets all on his own.



http://www.findarticles.com/...1/is_n31/ai_13991702



Some Got It Right

GIVEN OUR skepticism as to the possibility of predicting historical events, the real issue is not who provided the answers as to the USSR's longevity, but: Who was asking the right questions?

Across the Atlantic, French authors were more prone to see the fragility of the Soviet system. For example, Emmanuel Todd (not himself a Russian specialist) wrote a popular book in 1976 (La Chute Final) underlining the instability of the Soviet system by pointing to the precariousness of its internal and external empire and its economic and democratic stagnation.(4)

In the United States, however, one commentator and one volume of essays may be singled out as showing extraordinary prescience about the Soviet political system. Zbigniew Brzezinski never wavered from his 1962 analysis of ideology and power as the key categories of Soviet politics, which led him to conclude that the system was incapable of incremental reform.(5) Writing in 1976, he saw breakdown as much more likely than reform, and noted that "The national question creates a major block to gradual evolution."(6) In January 1988 Brzezinski was suggesting that the year could witness another "Spring of Nations," as in 1848.(7)

In his magisterial The Grand Failure (1989), Brzezinski listed the options as reform, turmoil, stagnation, coup, and fragmentation--and considered turmoil the most likely. He rejected the conventional view that the Politburo was split between advocates and enemies of reform. The main obstacle to change was the intrinsically unreformable nature of the system, and not some sort of reactionary opposition to Gorbachev inside the Communist Party. "Unintentionally, Gorbachev's policies are contributing to the buildup of a potentially revolutionary situation," he maintained, "reducing the level of political fear, even as they are raising the level of social frustration.... Such a combination is inherently explosive." For thirty years Brzezinski swam against the current of the Sovietological mainstream, which turned away from the totalitarian model, but he was vindicated by events.

Pride of place for a precognition of the events of 1989-91, however, must be shared by a volume edited by Alexander Shtromas, a Lithuanian emigre, and Morton Kaplan in 1987.(8) The book was a product of a conference in Geneva of the World Professors' Peace Academy, an organization funded by the Reverend Myung Sun Moon's Unification Church. It is hard to believe that the Moonies got it right when the CIA, Brookings, RAND, Harvard, Columbia and the rest got it wrong, but I would urge skeptics to read the book. (It should be added that the authors themselves were not Moonies.)

In his contribution, for example, Richard Burks concluded that "The chances for system breakdown in the next 5-10 years are probably better than even," since "All these problems have to be dealt with by a government that is no longer working as it was designed to do." This erosion of authority was a result of the veto power accumulated by bureaucrats and the succession struggles which turned the general secretary into a "walking corpse." Burks warned of "The danger of a political landslide [where] total control has ended by producing total dissent."

Similarly, Shtromas argued that "The new technocratic elite, with Gorbachev at its helm, would certainly not hesitate to introduce the long overdue radical system reforms that, being incompatible with totalitarian communist, would surely lead to its dismantlement." He anticipated a split in the elite and the emergence of a "second pivot" as a rival to the Communist Party. Shtromas did not predict that an elected Congress would emerge in such a role (his favored candidate was the military), but the concept of a "second pivot" was a useful insight into the mechanism of perestroika's demise--before the event. Shtromas also correctly perceived that the Soviet ideological state had fatally weakened the mobilizing power of Russian nationalism.

The contribution to the volume by A.P. Fedoseyev, a radio engineer, was the most perspicacious of all. Chaos loomed, he maintained, because of the "gradual collapse of state planning," while "not one decree of the Politburo is now being fulfilled." A popular revolution was unlikely, but some sort of coup could be expected--by the military or KGB, or of the "palace" variety.

How is one to explain the relative success of these authors? Shtromas and Fedoseyev drew upon their experience inside the system, while Burks was an East Europeanist who saw the parallels with 1956, 1968, and 1980. All three had one thing in common: they were not Sovietologists.

continued...


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Re: Tell Me Again How the Pope Ended Communism??? [Monk] [ In reply to ]
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A good summary below.

Pope John Paul II
and Communism

John Paul II has been credited with helping to bring down communism in eastern Europe by sparking what amounted to a peaceful revolution in his Polish homeland...actually, John Paul II was a catalyst in the collapse of Communism.

On June 2, 1979: Historic homily of John Paul II at Victory Square in Warsaw: "It is not possible to understand the history of the Polish nation without Christ."

January 15, 1981: John Paul II receives in audience a delegation headed by Lech Walesa of the Polish Independent Syndicate Solidarnosc.



Solidarity is the labor movement against Communism that took place in Poland in the 1980s and eventually brought democracy to Poland and the downfall of communism in eastern Europe, including Russia. The Pope with Lech Walesa

Lech Walesa, the founder of the Solidarity worker movement that ultimately toppled communism, credited John Paul with giving Poles the courage to rise up. "The pope started this chain of events that led to the end of communism," Walesa said. "Before his pontificate, the world was divided into blocs. Nobody knew how to get rid of communism. "He simply said: Don't be afraid, change the image of this land."

January 13, 1987: John Paul II receives in audience the Communist President of the Council of the People's Republic of Poland, General Wojciech Jaruzelski... click to enlarge

The struggle to build the Nowa Huta church is one of the great clashes between the Catholic Church and Communists in post-war Poland. Of all the conflicts between the Church and the Communists involving Karol Wojtyla, this story perfectly expresses his growth into political leadership.



Nowa Huta was a brand new town built by the Communists in the early 50's outside of Krakow. The town was in Wojtyla's jurisdiction. It was meant to be a workers' paradise, built on Communist principles, a visible rebuke to the "decadent," spiritually besotted Krakow. The regime assumed that the workers, of course, would be atheists, so the town would be built without a church. But the people soon made it clear they did want one. Wojtyla communicated their desire, and the regime opposed it... but eventually the church was build and consecrated by bishop Karol Wojtyla.

Later, as Pope, John Paul II spoke of human dignity, the right to religious freedom and a revolution of the spirit--not insurrection. The people listened. As George Wiegel observed, "It was a lesson in dignity, a national plebiscite, Poland's second baptism."

John Paul II's 1979 trip was the fulcrum of revolution which led to the collapse of Communism. Timothy Garton Ash put it this way, "Without the Pope, no Solidarity. Without Solidarity, no Gorbachev. Without Gorbachev, no fall of Communism." (In fact, Gorbachev himself gave the Kremlin's long-term enemy this due, "It would have been impossible without the Pope.") It was not just the Pope's hagiographers who told us that his first pilgrimage was the turning point. Skeptics who felt Wojtyla was never a part of the resistance said everything changed as John Paul II brought his message across country to the Poles. And revolutionaries, jealous of their own, also look to the trip as the beginning of the end of Soviet rule.

The Pope’s epic June 1979 pilgrimage to his homeland there were nine days on which the history of the 20th century pivoted. In those forty-some sermons, addresses, lectures, and impromptu remarks, the Pope told his fellow-countrymen, in so many words: “You are not who they say you are. Let me remind you who you are.” By restoring to the Polish people their authentic history and culture, John Paul created a revolution of conscience that, fourteen months later, produced the nonviolent Solidarity resistance movement, a unique hybrid of workers and intellectuals — a “forest planed by aroused consciences,” as the Pope’s friend, the philosopher Jozef Tischner once put it. And by restoring to his people a form of freedom and a fearlessness that communism could not reach, John Paul II set in motion the human dynamics that eventually led, over a decade, to what we know as the Revolution of 1989.

It took time; it took the Pope's support from Rome--some of it financial; it took several more trips in 1983 and 1987. But the flame was lit. It would smolder and flicker before it burned from one end of Poland to the other. Millions of people spread the revolution, but it began with the Pope's trip home in 1979. As General Jaruzelski said, "That was the detonator."

In 1979, John Paul II receives in audience the Soviet Foreign Minister, Andrei Gromyko[/url]. In 1989, the Pontiff arranges the first meeting ever between a Pope and a Kremlin chief. He meets with Mikhail Gorbachev in the Vatican. They announce the Vatican and Moscow will establish diplomatic ties.

It was Gorbachev himself who acknowledged publicly the role of John Paul II in the fall of Communism. "What has happened in Eastern Europe in recent years would not have been possible without the presence of this Pope, without the great role even political that he has played on the world scene" (quoted in La Stampa, March 3, 1992).

Perhaps the most significant statement the pope made after the fall of Communism throughout his entire pontificate was that "the claim to build a world without God has been shown to be an illusion" (Prague, April 21, 1990). For John Paul II it was only a matter of when and how Communism would fall. Communism as a system, in John Paul II’s opinion, fell not only by the hand of divine Providence, but as a consequence of its own mistakes and abuses. John Paul II repeated the content of Christianity, its religious and moral message, its defense of the human person, insisting that this is a principle to be followed. Thus in his estimation, Christianity itself became the determining factor in the fall of Communism.

The fall of Communism meant that a Europe of the spirit was being reborn. While celebrating the fall of Communism, however, John Paul warned against the dangers of capitalism. "Unfortunately, not everything the West proposes as a theoretical vision or as a concrete lifestyle reflects Gospel values." He saw in capitalism certain "viruses": secularism, indifferentism, hedonistic consumerism, practical materialism, and also formal atheism.

In Cuba: The Pope deployed a similar strategy in Cuba in January 1998 as in Poland in 1979. He did not mention the current Cuban regime, once, in five days. Rather, he re-read Cuban history through the lens of a Christianity that had formed a distinctively Cuban people from native peoples, Spaniards, and black African slaves, and he re-read the Cuban national liberation struggle of the 19th century through the prism of its Christian inspiration. Here, as in Poland in 1979, the Pope was restoring to a people it authentic history and culture. In doing so, he was also calling for a reinsertion of Cuba into history and into the hemisphere, asking the Cuban people to stop thinking of yourselves as victims (the theme of Fidel Castro’s welcoming address), and start thinking of themselves as the protagonists of their own destiny.


The Pope with Putin, President of Russia, Nov. 7, 200

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/pope/communism/
http://www.daughtersofstpaul.com/johnpaulpapacy/meetjp/thepope/jpcommunism.html
http://www.fpri.org/ww/0106.200004.weigel.popehistory.html
http://www.cjonline.com/stories/101303/pag_pope.shtml
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/3190110.stm
http://www.cnn.com/2003/ALLPOLITICS/10/13/column.shields.opinion.shields/


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Re: Tell Me Again How the Pope Ended Communism??? [el fuser] [ In reply to ]
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I bow to your superior intellect and declare you All Wise, Knowing and Omniscient Ruler of the Lavender Room.
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Re: Tell Me Again How the Pope Ended Communism??? [el fuser] [ In reply to ]
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Or, you can just go on and pretend that Reagan was an intellectual visionary that dreamt up the collapse of the Soviets all on his own.


Many world leaders dreamt of the end of the collapse of the Soviet Union and communism. Few went beyond just dreaming about it...

The likes of Pope John Paul II, Reagan and Thatcher made those dreams reality.
Last edited by: Brian286: Apr 6, 05 5:18
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Re: Tell Me Again How the Pope Ended Communism??? [Brian286] [ In reply to ]
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Jesus, you get stupider every 24 hours.

____________
"There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs." John Rogers
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Re: Tell Me Again How the Pope Ended Communism??? [Brian286] [ In reply to ]
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Here is how the Pope assisted in ending Communism.

I saw an interview with Lech Walesa over the weekend, he said that before John Paul II came to Poland he had only 10 people stand with him to unionize, after the Popes visit 10 Million stood with him.

All I Wanted Was A Pepsi, Just One Pepsi

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Re: Tell Me Again How the Pope Ended Communism??? [Billabong] [ In reply to ]
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That is the best, most concise, and most meaningful answer I have seen yet.
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Re: Tell Me Again How the Pope Ended Communism??? [ In reply to ]
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Jeez, does everyone have to be either in the A) "the pope (and Reagan) destroyed communism", or B) "the pope did nothing" camp?

I dont think Communism was going to be a permanent force (said admittedly in the my clear 20/20 hindsight vision), but certain people probably did help speed its demise. Sure sounds like John Paul II was one of those guys.

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Re: Tell Me Again How the Pope Ended Communism??? [jhc] [ In reply to ]
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I hope you're not talking about me, I've already acknowledged that the Pope played a role.
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Re: Tell Me Again How the Pope Ended Communism??? [el fuser] [ In reply to ]
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OK, almost everyone.

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Re: Tell Me Again How the Pope Ended Communism??? [Billabong] [ In reply to ]
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You should note the word "assisted".

No single person or event brought it down.

All I Wanted Was A Pepsi, Just One Pepsi

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