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Re: A feeding tube is life support. [Mr. Tibbs] [ In reply to ]
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So why aren't you anti-war, as well?








"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."
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Re: A feeding tube is life support. [vitus979] [ In reply to ]
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"You'll have to excuse me, then, commodore, because I seem to have badly misinterpreted the following, from one of your previous posts: The point is that if life is sacred, it is sacred. If innocent life is sacred, then all innocent life is sacred. If it is a crime to take an innocent life, then it is a crime whether that happens during an abortion or an execution"

I was just saying that with regard to the extremely fervent pro-life crowd, who make their entire claim based on the unbreakable sanctity of life.

"Serious question, now: How many people on death row do you figure are there wrongly? Meaning that they're actually innocent. I bet there aren't any innocent people on death row right now, and there rarely, if ever, have been"

Well, in just doing a little research, I found 6 men in the State of California alone, since 1981, that were on death row, and then were acquitted on retrials, or had their convictions overturned. That's in just one State. Also, it's pretty much impossible to give a number of innocent people on death row, because as soon as we're sure they're inncoecnt, we take them off death row. It's the ones who are on death row, who are innocent, but we don't know it, so we can't get a head count.

"And I bet that in the large majority of the cases currently on death row, there isn't any doubt whatsoever about the convict's guilt."

Well that's where you have to ask yourself the question: "Is it just a matter of percentages, where if the vast majority of them are guilty as sin, it's ok?"

Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)
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Re: A feeding tube is life support. [slowguy] [ In reply to ]
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I was just saying that with regard to the extremely fervent pro-life crowd, who make their entire claim based on the unbreakable sanctity of life.

I'm not sure which portion of the pro-life crowd you're referring to. Those who base their entire claim on the unbreakable sanctity of life, I think, are not only anti-abortion, but also anti-capital punishment, and also anti-war.

I found 6 men in the State of California alone, since 1981, that were on death row, and then were acquitted on retrials, or had their convictions overturned. That's in just one State.

And I submit that you found six cases in which the system worked properly to prevent an innocent person from being executed.

it's pretty much impossible to give a number of innocent people on death row, because as soon as we're sure they're inncoecnt, we take them off death row.

That's not what I asked. I was talking about the degree of certainty of guilt among death row inmates. I strongly suspect there's already a much higher certainty of guilt for the typical death row inmate than there is for murderers sentenced to lesser punishments.

Well that's where you have to ask yourself the question: "Is it just a matter of percentages, where if the vast majority of them are guilty as sin, it's ok?"

No, that's where you have to ask yourself if the state is doing everything humanly possible to ensure that innocent people aren't unjustly sentenced. Some states, I think, do a better job than others, and I think all states could probably do better yet.








"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."
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Re: A feeding tube is life support. [vitus979] [ In reply to ]
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"And I submit that you found six cases in which the system worked properly to prevent an innocent person from being executed."

And that's great, but what it says is that there were 6 people convicted by a jury and sentenced to death, who were innocent or should not have been convicted. Fortunately for them, they were able to have their convictions overturned, but if there were six, who says there weren't more? You can never say how many innocents were killed, because once you kill them, no one is looking to prove their innocence anymore.

"I strongly suspect there's already a much higher certainty of guilt for the typical death row inmate than there is for murderers sentenced to lesser punishments."

Why do you strongly suspect that? There isn't a different burden of proof for capital cases.

"No, that's where you have to ask yourself if the state is doing everything humanly possible to ensure that innocent people aren't unjustly sentenced. Some states, I think, do a better job than others, and I think all states could probably do better yet."

Vitus, do you think we can ever ensure that no innocent person is executed? If you admit to the possibility of it happening, and I don't see how you couldn't, and if you still support the death penalty, then you are saying that the necessity of the death penalty is worth the chance of killing some or even one innocent person. I'm not making any judgement about that, just stating where the logic leads.

Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)
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Re: A feeding tube is life support. [vitus979] [ In reply to ]
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I'm not pro war. I just see the fact that war is an ingrained part of human nature and a useful tool of civilaztion.

customerjon @gmail.com is where information happens.
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Re: A feeding tube is life support. [Mr. Tibbs] [ In reply to ]
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I'm no big fan of libertarianism, but I'm also no fan of the whole Schiavo tragedy. I think we're all going to need to take a step backwards and examine our ownselves and what we believe about life.



As She Lay Dying

Illana Mercer


I've yet to hear one liberal enunciate in the Terri Schiavo case the principle that moral law supersedes man's law. But whether they defer to reason or to revelation , I've heard scores of conservatives articulate the a priori truth in this case – which is:

Notwithstanding my own belief in the right to die, the only authority that has jurisdiction over Terri Schiavo is Terri Schiavo. In the absence of a living will or a clear directive from her, a court's decision – no matter which court – cannot be equated with her will. Ditto her husband's hearsay. We simply don't know – and can't divine – Terri's wishes, although it's reasonable to assume that if she wanted to die, she didn't wish for the death she's been dealt.

As a society, we have no right to decide Terri's fate; ours is an obligation to do her no harm – to uphold her right to life in the absence of a directive from her, and in the overwhelming presence of evidence she is being harmed. (How do cognitively competent people know Terri is being harmed? Hmm … let me see: Does being starved qualify – in the absence of clear, persuasive evidence one has requested such treatment?)

Federalism, discovered belatedly by liberals, is not the issue here; the right to life is. The level of decision-making is immaterial; what matters is the decision. Had a federal court found for her life, the decision ought to have been hailed as the right one – one consonant with natural justice. No one has the right to kill an innocent human being. By logical extension, it matters not who saves her – which state or federal official – just so long as someone does.

For natural rights antedate the state apparatus. Although federalism is an excellent principle, it is not a religion. Predicating Terri's right to life, as it has been, on the outcomes of a judicial review is to concede that the courts have a right to deny her life. As to the extent the law upholds natural rights, it's good; to the extent it violates the right to life, liberty and property – it's bad. In this particular case, it doesn't matter who upholds the right to life, just so long as someone does.

Terri's condition is yet another irrelevance: The party that wants to err in favor of killing says she is in a "persistent vegetative state." The cautious camp claims she is "minimally conscious." Like federalism, Terri's medical condition is also immaterial in this particular case, the premise of which is that her right to life depends on state-of-the-art medical expertise.

Aside from having a hard time disguising their collective God Complex, most doctors are reductionists. They think squiggles on a machine are an accurate map of the whole person. That a person is more than the sum of his or her parts is not a proposition they often entertain. For example, it took doctors a long time to "discover" what mothers have known all along: Newborns do a great deal with their heavy, wobbly heads. In response to stimuli, my own 3-week-old girl used to crack a broad smile. Her pediatrician (this was admittedly a while ago) cautioned she was windy, not amused. Naturally, when the jovial child began chuckling at three months (to this day she finds her mother a scream), shoulders shaking and all, I didn't tell him. Who knows what St. Vitus' dance he'd have diagnosed?

The point being, the (disputed) state of Terri's cerebral cortex does not give the state the right to cause her death.

If the case of poor Terri Schiavo has taught me anything it is how utterly loathsome liberals are. In their ever-so "progressive" zeal for euthanasia, they've discovered principles for which they've hitherto had nothing but contempt. In the liberal vernacular, states' rights are synonyms for discrimination, that is, until Ms. Schiavo. Now Democrats shriek louder than Dixiecrats ever did that the intervention by a federal court in a so-called state (or personal) matter undermines this "cherished" principle. (So they know about the 10th Amendment?)

The only kind of marriage liberals had ever glorified is the gay kind. But thanks to Michael Schiavo, the sanctity of marriage is fast becoming a liberal sacrament, with the proviso it has to involve "mercy killing." It took Michael Schiavo's devoted efforts to starve and dehydrate his wife to restore liberal faith in the institution. As we know, liberals, inexplicably, have insisted over and over again that Terri Schiavo's husband is his helpless wife's sole and indisputable guardian. Furthermore, to liberals, males have always been the guilty party in just about any heterosexual interaction. Michael's monstrous single-mindedness has changed all that.

"We are a nation of laws" is the latest – not last – in liberal two-facedness. The law, after "due process," has sentenced Ms. Schiavo to death, therefore die she must. Illegal aliens are trampling the rule of law and states' rights as we speak. Show me a Democrat who'll support the right of state residents to refuse to teach or medically treat these lawbreakers.

Consider the liberals' "let nature take its course" chant. They generally believe "nature," the animal kingdom in particular, is the appropriate metaphor for civilization. It would apparently do humans a whole lot of good to imbibe even more animal "ethics" than we already practice.

What distinguishes civilized beings from animals, primitive societies and liberals is that they don't see nature as an exemplar of all that is fine and good. To the contrary: The civilized don't abandon the burdensome or the enfeebled to nature. When some of us do, others will always strive to rescue them.

The tragedy of Terri is a testament to how irreconcilable certain liberal leanings are with civilization itself.
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Re: A feeding tube is life support. [big kahuna] [ In reply to ]
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Of course this gloses over the only issue. Did she say she didn't want to live this way? I wouldn't. I have always said so. My family and friends know for a fact when it's time for me to go I want to go.

Don't forget how the Reps looks after this. There media darlings in diffrent states of panic. The angry yells and pointing at "facts" they can not back up. Sean Hannity on TV with his fellow geeks int he death freak show with his eyes all puffy and his hatered of "liberals" shining through.

I still say at the end of this Terri is the one forgotten. She is the tool for our own feelings about our own deaths. I have no use for mellow dramatic columns and cries of horrible liberals. I want to know facts and both sides have already burried those.

customerjon @gmail.com is where information happens.
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Re: A feeding tube is life support. [slowguy] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:

Well, in just doing a little research, I found 6 men in the State of California alone, since 1981, that were on death row, and then were acquitted on retrials, or had their convictions overturned. That's in just one State. Also, it's pretty much impossible to give a number of innocent people on death row, because as soon as we're sure they're inncoecnt, we take them off death row. It's the ones who are on death row, who are innocent, but we don't know it, so we can't get a head count.


6 cases being overturned does not necessarily mean that the perpetrators were innocent. More than likely there was an error in the trial proceedings or in the evidentiary process. I do agree with you that there are probably innocent people on death row but it is wrong to assume that the 6 cases mentioned above all involve innocent people.

Remember, a not guilty verdict does not mean innocent, just that the state did not prove it's case beyond a reasonable doubt.
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Re: A feeding tube is life support. [ In reply to ]
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How can you take a life , If there is no life to begin with ,,,, Family & doctors are playing sharades ,try to get a grulel or get a wink out of the poor women to "infer " she wants to live. I can get my cat to say that, in ten minutes by waving a fresh chunk of albacore infront of her. It a shame the media / government have turned a sad situation into a circus, Simple folks are turned in puppets, all for Ratings. After the baseball steroid hearings they are ready for any insignificant topic for the next hearing.
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Re: A feeding tube is life support. [Helitech] [ In reply to ]
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What is driving me nuts is the lack of facts. The rep mediea keeps saying the husband kept the money and ran off with his new chick and left Terri with no support. But I also heard that the mailpractice award was court controlled and all the money went to her rehab and the husband flew her all over and tried to make her better. I can't confrim either because again this is about politics and our own fear of death and it has nothing to do with Terri.

customerjon @gmail.com is where information happens.
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Re: A feeding tube is life support. [Mr. Tibbs] [ In reply to ]
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Mr.Tibbs wrote

But I also heard that the malpractice award was court controlled and all the money went to her rehab and the husband flew her all over and tried to make her better.

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I believe the husband wants to move on in his life ,and has done the best he could for the wife. There is just no quality of life PERIOD . Now everyone has an affidavit ,she winked or exhaled she wanted to live.
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Re: A feeding tube is life support. [Barrio] [ In reply to ]
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"6 cases being overturned does not necessarily mean that the perpetrators were innocent. More than likely there was an error in the trial proceedings or in the evidentiary process. ... Remember, a not guilty verdict does not mean innocent, just that the state did not prove it's case beyond a reasonable doubt."

- One of them was released after his chief accuser recanted his testimony. The guy had been in prison for 16 years, 6 of them on death row. His chief accuser, upon whom the entire prosecution relied, was a felon who had been given leniency in other charges in exchange for his testimony.

- One of them was put on death row because the prosecution ignored a confession from another man. In his retrial, the jury said they were convinced the other guy had done it, so they let him go.

- One was granted a new trial because it was determined that his lawyer had been grossly incompetenet in his original defense. When the new trial was granted, the prosecution declined to retry.

- One was convicted of killing a cop. He was given a retrial based on a technicality, but in the retrial, it became evident that he had been shot by the police officer first, and fired back only in self-defense.

- One of them was convicted after acting as his own attorney. In his retrial, evidence was presented that another man had committed the murder, and had boasted about the crime to witnesses and claimed that he had acted alone.

- The last was convicted, along with another prisoner, of killing a corrections officer while in prison. His first trial anded in a hung jury. His second trial resulted in conviction and the death sentence, but was overturned because the prosecution used it's preemptory challenges to ensure that only whites were on the jury (the defendants were black prisoners, the victim was a white guard). His third trial ended in a hung jury again, and he was acquitted in his 4th trial.

I have no doubt that some people are cleared based solely on technicalities, but these guys appear to have legitimately been wrongly convicted of crimes they didn't committ. If their appeals hadn't been succesful, they would have been executed wrongly. Is that ok? That's a choice for each individual to make. I only ask that people acknowledge the truth of their position. If you support the death penalty, which is fine, you should acknowledge that you are, in effect, saying that the benefits of the death penalty outweigh the risk of executing an innocent person once in awhile.

Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)
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Re: A feeding tube is life support. [Helitech] [ In reply to ]
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I think the husband is doing what he thinks is best because he is still around. Think what you want of his new babe but I think he has not gotten a divorce because he want to help Terri.

The Freak Show demonizes this dude but can't point out what he has to gain with his fight. He has but a mark on himself and most probably his life on the line to do what he feels is right for Terri. I hear all this shit about money but no one can show he has gotten rich off this. All they can talk about is he is healthy and Terri is not and he might have tried to kill her.

I am very affraid of The Freak Show.

customerjon @gmail.com is where information happens.
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Re: A feeding tube is life support. [slowguy] [ In reply to ]
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Why do you strongly suspect that? There isn't a different burden of proof for capital cases.

No, there's no different burden of proof for determining guilt in capital cases. I suspect that in practice there's often a higher standard of proof used in delivering a capital sentence after guilt has been determined according to the usual standard of proof.

I recognize that is isn't always so, and it's one of the changes that I think would be quite simple to implement, and quite effective: Guilt in capital cases should use the same burden of proof as we currently require, but when we move to the sentencing phase, the case would require a much more restrictive burden of proof before the death penalty is imposed.

Vitus, do you think we can ever ensure that no innocent person is executed?

I've already said that I can't, to an airtight, 100% certainty guarantee that. But I think the odds of it happening right now are incredibly small, and I think even they can be drastically reduced by some pretty simple changes which we should make.

then you are saying that the necessity of the death penalty is worth the chance of killing some or even one innocent person.

I understand the logic, and I don't disagree with it, exactly, but it's just like saying that going to war for X reason is worth killing thousands of innocent little girls and boys.








"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."
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Re: A feeding tube is life support. [Mr. Tibbs] [ In reply to ]
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This illustrates why it's always best to get the best lawyer that money can buy:

What Went Wrong

Steve Sailer reproduces a letter from a Florida lawyer, who comments on how the seemingly perverse outcome of the Terri Schiavo litigation came about:
I have been following the case for years. Something that interests me about the Terri Schiavo case, and that doesn't seem to have gotten much media attention: The whole case rests on the fact that the Schindlers (Terri's parents) were totally outlawyered by the husband (Michael Schiavo) at the trial court level.

This happened because, in addition to getting a $750K judgment for Terri's medical care, Michael Schiavo individually got a $300K award of damages for loss of consortium, which gave him the money to hire a top-notch lawyer to represent him on the right-to-die claim.

By contrast, the Schindlers had trouble even finding a lawyer who would take their case since there was no money in it. Finally they found an inexperienced lawyer who agreed to take it partly out of sympathy for them, but she had almost no resources to work with and no experience in this area of the law. She didn't even depose Michael Schiavo's siblings, who were key witnesses at the trial that decided whether Terri would have wanted to be kept alive. Not surprisingly, Felos steamrollered her.

The parents obviously had no idea what they were up against until it was too late. It was only after the trial that they started going around to religious and right-to-life groups to tell their story. These organizations were very supportive, but by that point their options were already limited because the trial judge had entered a judgment finding that Terri Schiavo would not have wanted to live.

This fact is of crucial importance -- and it's one often not fully appreciated by the media, who like to focus on the drama of cases going to the big, powerful appeals courts: Once a trial court enters a judgment into the record, that judgment's findings become THE FACTS of the case, and can only be overturned if the fact finder (in this case, the judge) acted capriciously (i.e., reached a conclusion that had essentially no basis in fact).

In this case, the trial judge simply chose to believe Michael Schiavo's version of the facts over the Schindlers'. Since there was evidence to support his conclusion (in the form of testimony from Michael Schiavo's siblings), it became nearly impossible for the Schindlers to overturn it. The judges who considered the case after the trial-level proceeding could make decisions only on narrow questions of law. They had no room to ask, "Hey, wait a minute, would she really want to die?" That "fact" had already been decided.




I can't comment on the quality of the work done at the trial level without reading the transcript, but in general, what this lawyer says is correct. The reason why appeals don't often succeed is that all fact-finding is done in the trial court. If there is evidence to support the facts found by the judge or the jury, those facts are set in concrete from that point on. The question on appeal is only whether proper procedures were followed and the law was correctly applied. It is not hard to imagine that the Schindlers had no idea what they were getting into, and were ill-equipped, financially and otherwise, to fight a legal battle against their son-in-law. By the time they started garnering outside support, it was too late.



UPDATE: As several readers have noted, the statute that Congress passed last week was intended to mandate a new look at the facts, with no deference paid to what happened years ago in the Florida state court. This is what is meant by a "de novo" review. But, as we have said many times, the federal district court took an unreasonably narrow view of the act, and simply deferred, once again, to the facts that Judge Greer found long ago. This cannot be blamed on the inherent, and appropriate, principles of our judicial system.
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Re: A feeding tube is life support. [big kahuna] [ In reply to ]
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Nice. Yet another argument with no facts to back them up. It was the lawyers! How do you know? How does this lawyer know? I grew up with my dad's best friend being a none profit lawyer who helped those with no money and ran rings around high paid firms all the time.

I have heard the money won in the medical case was court contolled and an outside arbutier. So the husband has in no way profited from this case and as a matter of fact in the first 5 years put a lot of money into rehab for Terri. Often flying her to California for treatment.

Of course like everything in this case I don't believe anything and am sick of the Freak Show.

customerjon @gmail.com is where information happens.
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Re: A feeding tube is life support. [big kahuna] [ In reply to ]
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Tony, this case has not been decided because someone had more money for better lawyers. The courts tules as they did because Terri Schiavo has been conclusively shown to be in a persistant vegetative state with no higher brain functions, at all. This in spite of the frantic delusional ravings of her parents that she will isn't that bad and can get better, or the even more irritating diagnosis-by-video done by all sorts of quacks like Bill Frist.

I underatand that this is a difficult situation. But it's really pretty cut and dry - she's essentially a vegetable and had previously stated she would not want to be maintained as one.

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