"This is the most dangerous attitude of all. Don't be so simple as to dismiss these guys as babbling psychos. That's a dangerous underestimation of what we're dealing with'

We agree, and point taken. I 100% agree that they are more than that. My misguided point was that they stand soley on their use of Islam and what it teaches. They use it as support for all they do so if the majority of Muslims could show that they don't hold ownership of the religion and that the 99.99% of Muslims have no interest in their ways and methods then the jihadists would be with out that crutch.

This is what makes me so angry with Saudi Arabia. They say they are friends yet they allow all the hate to taught in their madrasas.

"My misguided point was that they stand soley on their use of Islam and what it teaches"

this is what I disagree with. What terrorists preach is not Islam. It is a perversion of Islam used to suit their own needs. it is an ultra fundmentalist, extremist version of Islam, with abunch of other crap thrown in, mostly politcal and designed to enrage. I agree that the Muslim world needs to take a stronger stand against this stuff, but, I'm not sure we can really understand what it's like to live with these guys in our midst. My best guess is that the average person doesn't stand up because they'll be killed, or their family will be killed. As for the leadership, there is some outrage, but not enough.

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Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)

Oh well - I was enjoing this debate but I'm afraid all the vitriol is making it a bit tiresome. I guess I can at least appreciate this short time of harmony with vitus979 ;)

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Why are extremists of the religion allowed to run wild? If the top people of the religion denounced this and made a big deal about it then "true" Muslims would need to follow the instructions you talked about right?

Because this notion that there's a "true" Islam that's non-violent is unfounded.

Islam has been plagued since the death of Mohammed by division. Who's to say who the top people are? Who's to say that the Wahhabis aren't the holders of "true" Islam? Besides slowguy, I mean?

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"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."

I agree, if there is a "true" Islam and it is not violent then it is on the believers of "true" Islam to secure their religion as they define it and forecfully expel those who cloak themselves in it by quoting it and using it as justification for their satanic actions.

My perception, only my perception, is that the forces behind Islam (whoever they are?) play nice to our face and tell us how peaceful it all is but while selling this to us they are at the same time in support of these jihadists, even if they are not in support of all the strategies and tactics they use. It reminds me of Japan in WWII where they pretended to negotiate while the whole time preparing for Pearl.

The Bible mentions all kinds of horrible and violent things that will/should happen to those who do not accept Jesus Christ as their Lord. Therefore, according to your theory, it would appear that Christianity is also a very violent religion.

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Steve Perkins

I'm not attacking Christians. I am a Christian. I'm merely pointing out the flawed arguments used to say that Islam is a "violent" religion. The same arguments can be made about Christianity.

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Steve Perkins

I agree it does, no argument. My distinction is that Jesus never called on his people to attack and kill those who don't believe. Any punishment will be from God not the hands of someone thumping a Bible. If you can point me to a place in the Bible that calls on Christians (same for Jews) to actively hunt down and kill non believers until the relent I will go take a look. That is what I mean by violent, not that all Muslims are or that other religions don't have references to punishments, war and killing.

Slowguy, you can take a look here http://www.biblia.com/islam/islam.htm It list wars of Islam going all the way back plus the current Muslim conflicts in Africa.