Do you even read the shit you post? No one has to make personal changes but you just want corporations and government to make changes? are you this stupid? You don't think anywhere in your little brain that Corp and government might enforce those changes on individual? Good lord this is sad. How did you get through life?

I have an electric mower and weed whacker.

I left the coal industry, and went into wastewater treatment. Well I left coal because Texas sucks (full of SDGs) and I was over living there.

Then I left wastewater to work in power sports, so I guess I have gone full circle back to polluting...

No, I have not made any personal changes directly related to reducing my carbon foot print. I make choices that reduce the amount of trash I have to throw away, does that count?

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Pactimo brand ambassador, ask me about promo codes

Not a whole lot.

• I ride a bike for transport because I like riding bikes
• I'll probably buy an EV someday but don't drive much so it will be a while
• I don't eat much meat these days but that is because my body feels better when I don't eat meat and the vegan options these days are excellent
• I still fly a lot
• Solar does not make much sense where I live as my utilities costs are cheap and are mostly from renewables
• I often use public transport when I travel, but mostly because it is often faster
• I did spend a bunch on some new HVAC unit that supposedly does not use much electricity

The primary driver for the shift to renewables/electric will because they are better/cheaper......unless you are SDG, who bases his life choices on the size of Zuckerberg's boat.

Oh yeah, all my lawn equipment went battery operated years ago, snowblower, chainsaw, weed Wacker, lawnmower.. Love it all no maintenance and no noise were the 2 big factors. Definitely seeing more and more electric lawn mowers, which is great so much quieter in the neighborhood.

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Just Triing
Triathlete since 9:56:39 AM EST Aug 20, 2006.
Be kind English is my 2nd language. My primary language is Dave it's a unique evolution of English.

And yet you said..


So clearly, you think someone is trying to get you to make these changes.. See if the govt and businesses regulate the change the rich and powerful would also change.. but this requires some higher level thinking that well you know (or maybe you dont)

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Just Triing
Triathlete since 9:56:39 AM EST Aug 20, 2006.
Be kind English is my 2nd language. My primary language is Dave it's a unique evolution of English.

I dont do much. I do bring my own bags to the grocery store + use amazon prime delivery day.

BUT most of that is because dont like the extra boxes/bags.

I pay 150 dollars a year to a farmer in Colombia. He took 1 hectare out of cattle production and we are letting it reforest. It is part of a larger project to reforest his land and he makes money off birding.

The place is called "Birdglamping" and it is near Solento.

I kept my medical office in a small town vs moving the practice to the town I moved to. I spares 30+ people driving round trip 70 km for doctor appts. We have fought hard to keep bloodwork in our office for the same reason.

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They constantly try to escape from the darkness outside and within
Dreaming of systems so perfect that no one will need to be good T.S. Eliot

This came up about a year ago - https://forum.slowtwitch.com/...tring=trees#p7983942 - and this was my list then:
You didn't ask serious questions. I gave them the attention they deserved. They have been asked and answered by much more informed people than me many times over the last 30 years. They are not the gotchas you think they are.

As to what I have personally done? Again, this won't be the gotcha you thought it was. This has been tried before. Let's see if I can remember the list.

I vote for people who are trying to address the issue and not pretend it doesn't exist. That is the most important thing any of us can do.

I work from home, no commute. 10 years ago I traded my SUV for a car that gets 30+ mpg. I have driven my last 3 cars over 200,000 miles. One 310,000. I set my thermostat at 78 in the summer and 65 in the winter. I have planted something like 70 or 80 trees on my 2.5 acres. I use carbon neutral firewood for most of my winter heat. I bought a battery weed whacker. I grow most of my own fruits and vegetables, trade those with my neighbor for eggs so no transport costs. I have converted about half my property to no mow with more to come. All LED lighting. Combine trips. That should be good enough for you. There are a lot of day to day things that are just a way of life now.

Not all of these were done explicitly to do what I can about climate change, but it was a consideration for most. You however didn't trade your vehicles for Bolts, or do anything else for that matter, due to climate change. You made it clear it wasn't a consideration for you.


Since then I bought a battery powered leaf blower, when my current mower dies my new one will be battery powered (small engines are horrible with emissions and most home tools that have 2 cycle engines should only come as battery powered).

A 225 acre (soon to be 400+) nature preserve was established right across the road from me. 2 weeks ago I helped plant 2000 trees and there will be more to come. I am now volunteering other skills to that group to help them expand along with brute force.

Again, planting the trees was not exclusively about climate change. It is also to improve the nature preserve. But my enthusiasm is increased by the threat of climate change.

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I'm beginning to think that we are much more fucked than I thought.

Probably the only thing I have done specifically to reduce climate change is to check the Amazon delivery day box. I do a lot of stuff that reduces my climate impact but often for more reasons that just the climate.

80% of my commutes are by bicycle or working from home, but I mainly do that for the exercise.
I bought an EV, but is was cheaper than the ICE version ($22k new) and a blast to drive.
I put solar panels on the roof, but expecting that to pay off in the long run. I could have made more money in different investments, but they should still net me some solid returns.
I constantly fight with my wife about where to set the thermostat. But she wants it >72 in the winter and <72 in the summer.

I am generally frugal which translates to a smaller climate footprint. One area I haven't cut back which probably negates all my positives is air travel.

Climate change I would not call it. Pollution reduction and sustainabliry.

- have EV car,only use it for trips over 4 miles. Rest by bike
- use my own bags shopping,own utensils eating out
- switched house from gas to all electric
- when I shower, wash my clothes at the same time
- if it's yellow... Let it mellow
- reuse same dish every day, instead of piling the sink up, don't clean it if it's nothing too dirty for food (example to hold carrots, I don't clean after)

I share a push lawn mower with my dad.

Please tell me you did this as the gas appliances reached their end of life...

How polluting does something need to be to justify the emissions of manufacturing a new replacement vs running it to EOL? Goes for cars, appliances and lawn tools. There has to be an analysis of the cost benefit somewhere, I just haven't seen it.

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Pactimo brand ambassador, ask me about promo codes

That is commitment. Those things are a workout.

I've cut down on cabbage and hard boiled eggs consumption.

Whatever I've done to lower my carbon footprint has probably been more than offset by running the AC in my office at the same time the heat is running in the building.

Meanwhile…. China is doing so much for climate change.

I would love to see that myself.

I have had a 4 stoke Honda mower for about 15 years. Runs great with minimal effort. In that same time my neighbors have had 4 or 5 different electric mowers so they can be more green. I have to believe I have less impact on the environment then they do when you account for everything involved.

Almost nothing.

Changes have to happen at the government level, or possibly at a societal (group) level. The more an individual does to reduce their carbon footprint, that disincentivizes others from doing anything.

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-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485

cost of natural gas went through the roof when the ukraine war happen. I also like that I can instantly get hot water compared to old system if water heater tank is drained...brr

Isn't China mining the raw materials used in the E-car batteries, building the batteries and then shipping them to the U.S.

I'd say they are doing a lot for climate change

I was listening to podcast recently talking about climate change and IIRC it highlighted the efforts China is making to reduce emissions while they are also doing other things (e.g. building more coal power plants?) that are making it worse.

Well I can tell you, all my purchases were not for Green, Have a working gas chainsaw, but bought the Battery one, cause I knew i would use it, and yeah, use it a lot more than the gas, cause its grab and go. Car was a need a new car, So yeah mine were not getting rid of something functional to go green, but occasionally were stop using something functional for something more functional.

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Just Triing
Triathlete since 9:56:39 AM EST Aug 20, 2006.
Be kind English is my 2nd language. My primary language is Dave it's a unique evolution of English.

Not if your getting the full rebate on your EV.

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Just Triing
Triathlete since 9:56:39 AM EST Aug 20, 2006.
Be kind English is my 2nd language. My primary language is Dave it's a unique evolution of English.

Off gassing

---

They constantly try to escape from the darkness outside and within
Dreaming of systems so perfect that no one will need to be good T.S. Eliot

What. ? So I should burn more to incentivize people to burn less? I don’t think people look across the street and decide what to do. I think people might just as likely say “why should I change no one else is”

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They constantly try to escape from the darkness outside and within
Dreaming of systems so perfect that no one will need to be good T.S. Eliot

the things I do people question.... and it makes them think. In a society where everyday tasks are robotic and you dont think how they are sourced. For instance when they offer me a spoon form my food items, I say "no thanks I have my own, trying not to waste plastic"

The problem with China is their rate of increase. The US and rest of the G7 countries have all made significant cuts to per capita CO2 emissions over the last 20 years. China on the other hand is massively investing in new coal plants and their CO2 emissions are increasing.

To their credit, their rate of increase has slowed and they are having an outsized impact on bringing green energy production and EVs to the G7.

Sure, that's all true. I was just pointing out that jharris' post was rather simplistic.

It's a global problem with no easy solutions. But it certainly doesn't seem fair to ask developing nations to put development on hold while the first world keeeps pumping out CO2.

That's not what I'm implying at all.

If people don't personally consider something to be a problem, they won't do anything about it. If it's not a problem because people like you have cleaned up the environment to their satisfaction, there's no reason for them to do anything.

And no, its not as simplistic as noticing that you drink out of paper straws so they decide that they don't have to. It's much bigger picture than that.

Regardless, anyone who thinks AGW is going to get solved by a bunch of people just voluntarily reducing their carbon footprint is deluding himself.

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-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485

This is clearly true. I do the usual token individual things, but progress requires effective government policies, and coordination & cooperation across governments internationally. Given that, I'm surprised no one has mentioned voting.

In Oz we have a phenomenon known as "teal" political candidates. Teal is blue mixed with green. Politically, teal candidates are generally politically centrist, even conservative (blue) but with a commitment to the environment generally and climate change in particular (green), where the conservatives have been a complete disappointment.

The most effective action I have ever taken was to volunteer support to the campaign of one of the original teal independents, in one of the safest conservative seats in the country, held for decades by a former Prime Minister (and climate change "sceptic"). She won resoundingly, increased her vote at the subsequent election, and has been joined by a loose alliance of other "teals" - there's 10 of them now. It has undeniably shifted the balance of government policy with respect to the environment.

That's harder to do in the US, where true independents are like unicorns, but there are ways to let candidates know that you will prioritise environmental concerns when voting.

Sometimes.. I think it will just be better to wastefully use the plastic. It is made from oil, which world supplies will eventually run out. Of course, don't throw it in environmentally sensitive areas

Even though China is doing measurably better than the US, l am curious, who is responsible for China's climate impact if a lot of China's carbon output is due to manufacturing a huge pile of stuff that most Americans buy?

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Advanced Aero TopTube Storage for Road, Gravel, & Tri...ZeroSlip & Direct-mount, made in the USA.
DarkSpeedWorks.com.....Reviews.....Insta.....Facebook
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Your neighbors seem very wasteful. That is very cool that you care about the planet.

Interesting lawnmower side story: our neighbor let his lawn get really long. So long, that when he tried to mow the grass with his gasoline mower, the mower would get bogged down and stall (like 10 times). My son went over to help him with our one (and only) electric mower. But our puny electric mower had no problem getting through his lawn (slowly) because the massive torque of the electric mower was just as good at 1 rpm as it was at 1000 rpm. Not so with ICE mowers.

Most people know this about electric cars (massive low end acceleration, even with average horsepower), but it never occurred to me that electric mowers have this same advantage.

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Advanced Aero TopTube Storage for Road, Gravel, & Tri...ZeroSlip & Direct-mount, made in the USA.
DarkSpeedWorks.com.....Reviews.....Insta.....Facebook
--

I never use a clothes dryer. Besides avoiding use of electricity or gas, and the carbon footprint of the machine itself, hanging clothes on a line actually cools the environment.

You will know that people care about climate change in the USA when you start to see clothes hanging on the line to dry. See e.g.

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It doesn't really matter what Phil is saying, the music of his voice is the appropriate soundtrack for a bicycle race. HTupolev

Yes, we use a clothes line for many (but not all) of our clothes, even in freezing weather. Sometimes clothes dry quite fast in freezing weather because the air is so dry.

But how does drying clothes on a line cool the environment?

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Advanced Aero TopTube Storage for Road, Gravel, & Tri...ZeroSlip & Direct-mount, made in the USA.
DarkSpeedWorks.com.....Reviews.....Insta.....Facebook
--

Why are you being silly? A good portion of electricity is fossil fuel sourced. And on that note stop worrying about increased climate heating, and more on pollutant reduction from fossil fuels use. I grew up with child hood asthma. Changed my environment to mostly get rid of it.

I refuse to buy a Taylor Swift concert ticket.

Although I do more than the average person, I’m not going to pretend an individual’s contributions are anything but a fool’s errand. Boycotting certain companies and/or industries is the most powerful thing you can do, which isn’t much at the individual level.

Eh not much.

I own a hybrid, it wasn't an intentional "pollute less" action, rather cheap, reliable car, gas efficient. I have gone full circle and got my pilots license since and burn about 8 gallons of avg gas an hour flying. I fly about 50-75/hours a year and burn significantly more avg gas than driving my car.

Two ways: First, wet clothes intercept sun rays that otherwise (a) will hit the ground, asphalt, etc, and warm it, or (b) be reflected back into the atmosphere. So instead of heating the atmosphere, this sun ray energy is evaporating water in your clothes. Secondly, if the dew point is sufficiently low, you can dry your clothes outside at night. Heat is removed from the air in order to evaporate the water, cooling the air. This is how water mist devices work to cool the air in the vicinity of the mister. Of course, this evaporative cooling effect is also present when you dry your clothes in sunlight.

Also I failed to mention earlier that in addition to the carbon footprint of dryers and their energy demands, there is much wasted excess heat that is pumped out of the dryer vent into the atmosphere. Put you hand over the dryer vent on the outside of your house/apt and feel the heat.

Using a dryer is one of the stupidest things people are allowed to do. They should be outlawed. But I suppose selling clothes lines won't make as much money for our corporate overlords as will selling residential roof solar panels and selling energy from solar farms and wind turbine farms.

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________
It doesn't really matter what Phil is saying, the music of his voice is the appropriate soundtrack for a bicycle race. HTupolev

Avoiding using an energy intensive dryer for the clothes is certainly helpful but believing that drying clothes on a line somehow has an effect of cooling the Earth is a bit absurd.

Incremental gains. Remember you are talking to people who discuss taping helmet vents or not wearing gloves to save 0.1 W.

But maybe it is along the lines of if one person does it once then it is like saying swimming in the ocean causes them to rise. But if a billion people did it every day?

Hey! I just put up a clothes line as part of my new commitment to the environment and saving $$. I’ve been using it for the bigger items, like towels and my kids’ sweatshirts, which they wear once before washing. Laundry goes more quickly and I have seen the bottom of the laundry bins, for the first time in 18 years. Laundry is turning into a whole new thing at my house!

I also added another recycling bin by our back door & I’m enforcing recycling. I added recycling bins to my kids’ bedrooms, so now there’s no reason for them to avoid recycling.

Overall, I’m pretty happy with these changes.

The wife and I live a pretty minimalist lifestyle which generally supports this. Don't buy a lot of crap, moved to a house in walkable area close to markets and entertainment so don't drive much. I use the bike for basic transport and a lot of shopping. Don't leave the car in idle forever.. what's up with that? Don't do meat. Vote for candidates that support greenhouse gas reduction.

Not sure what you pay per kWh but washing cold and hang dry saves 9kwh vs warm wash and 45 minutes drying!

Side note we pay 11cents per kWh but after rate rider/tax etc it’s 15c then you need 20c gross pre tax.

So figure even 3 loads a week at 2$ then about 300$ per year.

But really 27kw saved is also *about 60-80 miles driving in an EV.

Maurice

  

What one person does does not prevent climate change, but everyone needs to do something.

Those of us living in developed countries need to do the most as we are the overconsumers now. As we (hopefully) lift more and more of the global population out of poverty and starvation their per capita emissions will go up. When our total emission has to go down this is a given

• Biggest impact i made was to take the choice to move from global consumer business to a local business. Instead of having gold/elite status with two airlines i can now barely hold on to one silver membership.
• Try to reduce travel where i can by replacing travel with online meetings.efficient, cheap and environmental (per passenger on a flight emissions are approx 90kg CO2/hr)
• Added extra insulation to our house, changed the roof and the windows and installed a heatpump. Power consumption cut in half (big impact as i live in a cold place :) so this is good for my wallet and for the environment)
• Bought a cabin ~2 hours from where i live. The last 4 years as a family we have only 1 flight over 2 hours (yeah yeah, the cabin is still polluting, but it is better than flying to most holidays:)
• Last three cars have been EV, and both my wife and i bike commute and our kids bike/walk to school. We also try to bike everywhere that is shorter than a 20 min bikeride. including kids sports activiteis
• Actively try to avoid throwing away food at home and we use things until they are worn out, not until they are out of fashion.

It might seem absurd, but I have considered how I can cool my property, which is my little piece of paradise. I live in San Diego, about 10 miles from the ocean. It gets pretty warm in the summer at my house.

I have a north-south facing property with hedges and trees on the east side. My east-side plants provide great shade. I have just a smaller hedge and fence on the west side. I’m considering how to strategically plant in order to increase shade. The afternoon and late afternoon sun really roasts the west side of my property, including the west side of my house & garage.

I have one volunteer bush, a plumbago, sprouting up on the west side. It doesn’t have a regular source of water, as far as I can tell. I’ve told my gardener to let it be. think I should plant more of those because they are pretty and tough.

I put up a temporary shade structure in my backyard over my patio last fall because that patio heats up and radiates heat on the north side of my house. I actually put it up initially because I wanted to be comfortable while I weeded. Then I noted that it prevented the back patio from turning into an oven. That back patio influences the temperatures in that quarter of my property.

The temporary shade structure is down now. I think my options are to buy a big, permanent one from Costco or just use several umbrellas, which I already own. I suppose I should start with what I own and see if I like the results.

I guess what I’m trying to say is: passive cooling of my house means we won’t need to use A/C. I think if I put bushes on the west side & shade in the back patio, it will have an impact. Using less A/C or no A/C means energy and $ savings. Reducing my dependence on the dryer obviously saves $ & energy. I was pleasantly surprised to find it saves time, too.

I’ve thought about getting an insulated garage door and adding insulation to my garage— because it really heats up too.

With respect to BarryP’s notion that saving energy at the micro level stops others from saving energy at the macro level— I say: I plan to maximize the heavenly coolness, $, and efficiency of my house & property for my own selfish reasons. Also, I plan to encourage companies & government to save money and energy. I don’t know why my efforts to improve my property would be considered detrimental toward efforts to improve common government property or commercial property.

Around 10 years ago I planted a tree that lined up with the summer afternoon/evening sun hitting my patio and southwest wall of my house that has a lot of windows. It is now taller than the house and doing its job wonderfully. Some plans take longer to take hold but will last a very long time.

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I'm beginning to think that we are much more fucked than I thought.

When it gets warm in the house I adjust the thermostat and when it gets cool in the house I adjust the thermostat it’s easy that’s how I adjust the climate change.

I forget what podcast I heard a big wig in climate science talking about this issue and his conclusion was that that was pretty much the most important thing you could do because as other have alluded to anything you do at a personal level is largely meaningless in comparison to the impact government policies have.

On the flip side, we used to have trees on the east side of the house. They were starting to be an issue smacking our upstairs windows every time it got windy. The neighbor (they were on his property) decided to take them down rather than trim. We got our solar panels a few months later. Wouldn't have made sense to get panels if the trees were shading the roof.

This.

The Great American Dustbowl wasn't solved by farmers just individually deciding to do what was best for the environment.

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-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485

The dust bowl was caused by individuals making what appeared to be rational economics choices.

The most egregious anti-environmental choices in the USA are NOT rational.
1) Driving big cars long distances in isolation- this is expensive, a huge waste of time and terrible for mental and physical health.
2) Eating lots of feed lot beef- expensive and bad for your health
3) Buying lots of unnecessary plastic stiff- waste of time and money.
4) Cranking the heat and AC - expensive AND bad for your health.

The government could and probably should encourage consumers to stop trashing the environment and making themselves miserable.

The government should hold advertisers and political parties responsible for lying.

But if you know this stuff already.....

Why?
Why would you continue to make bad personal choices???
And keep the herd moving on towards destruction??

And keep

I have three adult-size teenagers who wear clean sweatshirts and use clean towels every dang day. They are teens and kind of stink, so it’s okay. But— the amount of laundry they create is amazing. I do two or three loads per day!

We use, on average, 16.0 kWh per day. We used 407 kWh last month. I don’t know what our rate is. It varies, depending on time of day & peak demand. Our last month’s bill was $330.

I just started implementing the Roberts’ Family Laundry Line Preferential Program and Electricity Consumption Reduction Act of 2024, so I will have to report back to you later with additional data.

2) false on both parts. Substitute the beef with fried plant food and you will see improvement on both parts?

Honest question: are you a human being, or are you an alien from another planet?

1) Fun &/or convenience
2) Tastes good
3) Fun &/or convenience
4) Comfort

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-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485

It should be obvious that being stuck in traffic.
Being fat, sick, drug dependent.
Spending all your time fixing and maintaining depreciating assets....

Being way too hot in winter.
And freezing in summer.

That stress, loneliness and mental illness of maintaining a decadent unnatural lifestyle...


IS NOT- fun, convenient or comfortable.

The "simple" life is not alien.

Mistaking the needs of the economic and political elite for your own needs...
That is alien.

Mistaking advertising campaigns for your own thoughts and feelings...
That's alien .

Don't get me wrong.

I realize that it is very, very hard to be free!!
To constantly avoid disempowering choices.


But it's not black or white.

The worst environmental choices are ALSO usually the worst economic and health decisions.

I didn't say never use a car, never travel, never eat junk food,

What I AM saying is don't be a dumbass.

You can eliminate 90% of the harmful stuff that most Americans do by simply eliminating the stupidest, most unhealthy, most financially irresponsible choices.

Hmmm...

My point is that extreme over-consumpution is NOT enjoyable.

And that seemingly small choice's:
Drive less.
Drive less on your own.
Eat less beef.
Eat less of the worst kind of beef.
Keep your house at a reasonable temperature.

That these, seemingly small choices will IMPROVE the quality of ones life AND massively reduce an individuals CO2 production.

Someone might "like" beef!

But it's disgusting and unhealthy to eat it every meal.

They would usually "like" beef more if it were high quality, and they only are it once a week.

It's hard to argue with the beef industry.
It's hard to argue with the car industry.

They have spent billions on advertising.
They have teams of psychologists, Internet marketers- figuring out how to keep people making bad choices.

I can't win that fight...

But one might win against:
"I need to eat low quality beef with every meal..."

Just what is low quality beef? Amount of hormones? amount of fat? cause you can find other animals with hormones and/or high amounts of fat. you are honestly pushing a misinformed rhetoric

You are an alien from another planet.

Got it.

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-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485

I am from planet Earth.

I suppose an Over-Consumpution Drone from the Facebook Walmart social media zone might consider that "another planet. "

Here on Earth we can make some choice.
And yes, some of those choices do effect the environment.
And deliberately making bad choices, because you are too weak to think for yourself....

Yes that is harmful.

Harmful in that it sets a bad example for other drones.
And harmful because it trashes the environment.

When I read your posts, I do it with Russel Brand's voice.

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-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485

I am not really interested in promoting beef consumption here.
It is one of the more harmful activities we might do..

But...

There are trade offs.

A little of something that's very harmful might be better than a lot of something that's moderately harmful.

Eating 1 lb of beef a month, is 30 times less harmful than eating 1 lb a day.

It can be convincingly argued that range cattle can fulfill some important roles in some damaged eco-systems.

For instance:

Cattle are responsible for the introduction of most of the non-native grasses and weeds in California.
And overgrazing is very harmful.

The removal of cattle, in some cases, actually made the non-native weed situation much worse.

The nature conservancy raises some very high price, high quality cattle as weed reduction animals on some of its land.
(This is what I am referring to. That and great planes reservation raised beefalo).

This is going deep into the weeds...

The rest of the world produces much less CO2 per capita than the USA does.

This is NOT because they eat no meat, never vacation, use no air-conditioning, never drive...

It is because they don't do everything to the most illogical and unhealthy extreme imaginable.

Not sure how you are defining low quality beef, but methane emissions from grain-finished cattle are much lower than fully-grass-fed cattle.

https://extension.okstate.edu/...n-finished-beef.html

Ike this could be interesting.

I might be wrong. But I did put a lot of thought into this.

I am guessing, the following:

1) Oklahoma is the center of the feed lot industry.
That this "literature" piece was put out by a pro-feed lot part of the extension service. That this literature does not do a very extensive survey of all of the literature on this topic.
2) That the CO2 cost of producing and transporting corn, and other feed- is not properly accounted for. That the CO2 cost of producing and transporting feeder cattle- is not properly accounted for.
3) That the algal blooms and the destruction of fresh water resources associated with the feed lot industry is not properly accounted for.
4) That the cost of the subsidies that maintain the feed lot system is not properly accounted for.
5) That the CO2 cost of the industries that fund the subsidies, that fund the feed lot system is not properly accounted for.
6) That the argument "that corn feed cows produce less CO2" smells bad:
A) Many wild grasses and pasture plants are relatives of wheat, rye, alfalfa anyway.That pasture cattle get a substantial part of their nutrition from finished grains.
B) That industrial feed farms burn their fields, they spray their fields, bacteria eat the remains. That all the CO2 from plants is released into the water or the air anyway.

Conversely for range beef:
1) The CO2 cost of the grass and forest fires associated with abandoned cattle lands.
2) The CO2 cost of suburban sprawl, McRanches, and freeways - that fill up previous ranch land
Are not accounted for.

I am generally not pro-beef industry at all.

But like I said in the previous post, I once knew some people at the Nature Conservancy in CA that were raising beef on Conservancy land. They were PHD ecologists and they were doing this as a part of a weed and fire control process and revegetation process.
They did sell the beef for profit. That probably also helped to keep it the land out of the endless CA suburbanization process.

I imagine that this is a highly complex topic.

That it is highly dependent on the ecosystem on which the grazing takes place.

We can buy beef from a farm 2 miles away. You can see the actual cows grazing in the field that you are going to eat. Not everybody has this choice but many of us do we just have to put in some extra effort. It costs somewhat more but we eat less of it and when we do I think we enjoy it more.

---

They constantly try to escape from the darkness outside and within
Dreaming of systems so perfect that no one will need to be good T.S. Eliot

Two weeks ago we moved my mom in with us. She was in assisted living but not getting much assistance. She does fine with fairly minimal assistance from us. Now she isn't paying 5000 dollars a month for assisted living. She is good company so it is good for us and her. She does some cooking and tidies up because she likes to be useful. Even if we eventually have to hire help it will be cheaper. It reduces her carbon footprint too. She is 85. Her sister is 90 and lives with her daughter and husband. She left her own apartment thus again less carbon footprint. Also frees up housing for people who need it. I also don't have to drive three hours one way to see her. Which is good for my mental health.

The cat is happier too. That cat lives in the (fully finished) basement and was lonely because our dogs kept chasing her down there. Now the cat has fulltime company.

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They constantly try to escape from the darkness outside and within
Dreaming of systems so perfect that no one will need to be good T.S. Eliot

I agree with the driving bit. Yesterday I drove three hours round trip to see a friend in hospital who had two heart valves repaired. On Sunday I am going to take the train. I am in my late 50s and as much as possible I try to avoid driving.

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They constantly try to escape from the darkness outside and within
Dreaming of systems so perfect that no one will need to be good T.S. Eliot

I think what irks me more is that beef is being targeted yet all other livestock just as equal strain on the enviroment. Not like going all plant based is better - the farms/processing needed to grow crops for this processed stuff to mimic meat. One thinks energy usage is down because freezers are not used for beef...but then why are the beyond burgers placed there? They also use plastic wrapping

It’s not all equal. Beef is much worse. Tons of sources on this. Here is one.

https://ourworldindata.org/...oice-vs-eating-local

Yes, it is a complex topic and getting the accounting right is not easy. Here is a reputable source that finds much higher GHG emissions from grass fed beef. The authors find some ecological benefits to grass fed beef, so they are not some biased industry source. But, on GHG, which is the topic of this thread, they find grass fed is worse.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/...articles/PMC8867585/

As for your TNC acquaintances, yes, cattle can be good for the land. They closely approximate bison, who were the original occupants. Their hooves help aerate the soil. I helped manage thousands of acres of range land, and our ecologists argued that cattle were generally good for the soil. But, they are not good for the climate.

Deliberately:
-Nothing.

Coincidentally:
-I commute to work and back on average only once per week
-My vehicles for the last 10+ years average over 30mpg.
-The beef and eggs we consume are entirely home grown and locally processed.
-My voting preferences tend to support politicians who are more friendly to climate science initiatives.
-I argue with people here rather than driving to their houses to tell them they're wrong.

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The devil made me do it the first time, second time I done it on my own - W

Tons of sources.. https://clear.ucdavis.edu/blog/bogus-burger-blame as I said before...lets extinct all cattle to solve the problem. India eats no meat yet they have higher pollution rates than USA ..

. Also chicken,fish, pork, pizza ( which can be meatless but requires cows ) and meatless pasta dishes, again usually with cheese, salads which generally have some type of meat as a meal and rice dishes generally the same. (Unless you're on Survivor) Plus milk. Are diary cows more green than beef cattle? It's ridiculous to target beef... It will always be a staple and if you penalize it through additional cost it will only hurt the public, particularly the less affluent and diminish their quality of life.

Not sure how you think that article contradicts what I wrote. It acknowledges that animal ag is a major — though not the biggest — contributor to GHG emissions. It also is not a study of beef vs other food sources, which was the point I was making.

Climate debates are far too full of pointing at other sources: don’t worry about cattle, the real problem is coal or China or whatever. It is not an either/or. We should admit there are many sources, some of which are within our immediate control. To succeed we will need to make progress on many fronts. We can cut back on beef and fossil fuels. Indeed, we need to.

correlation != causation

Wow, I didnt realize that the US was still by far and away the single largest polluter in the world per capita. Thought that China had inched closer, but appears we are all out front by our lonely selves, many, many times worse than the evil China...

Very surprised at India and how little CO2 they produce, guess because it is mostly poor and just not enough resources to waste...

See post 28.

There are lots of other countries that are high CO2 producer's.
What makes the US different is that SOOO much of our CO2 is related to over-consumpution.

For example:

China is a big country, they create a lot pollution from powering heavy industry. They heavy industry is there to make cheap sh#t. China then sells the cheap sh#t to USA.This helps them reduce their poverty.

Australia produces a lot of coal, natural gas, minerals, timber and beef - so that they can sell it to China or the USA. This allows them to maintain their pleasant middle class existence.

The USA creates a shit ton of CO2 simple so that people can drive a 100 miles to buy a "special" hamburger. Or heat and cool a massive ugly house.
The majority of pollution in the USA is created not for reasonable economic goals.
It is about over- consuming to the point of illness.

Sorry, not following your point. The big GHG for cattle is methane. Your table is CO2.

I bike commuted a good amount (and fair distance, 15 miles one way) when I was a regular commuter. But this was somewhat about getting bike gainz as much as "climate."

Now I mostly work from home, but that's convenience, not really climate related.

We have the Nature Conservancy as a major recipient of our estate upon death. It could end up sizeable, and we have no children.

Always fuel efficient cars. I swore the I'd never buy an ICE car again, but did because when I really needed a solid 4WD/AWD, the only electric one I'd trust was Rivian, and they were way backordered at the time. So the *next* one will be an EV.

Was solar powered for decades. Not at the moment....and still running the numbers on if it makes sense given I'm backed up against the Sierra Nevada mountains with much less daily sunlight than before.

Sparse meat eater, excepting fish. Eat beef/pork/chicken maybe once every couple of weeks.

One might say I do a lot for the climate.

I bicycle commute.
I eat very little meat (especially commercial beef and ocean farmed fish).
I keep my electric bill less than $80/month year round.
I also have some land that is earmarked for conservation.
I use limited packaging.

But as trail said...

Most of the "green choices" I make, are not made for environmental reasons.

A human being is an animal. We like good health, fresh air, outdoor exercise, recreation, free time...

We don't like traffic jams, diabetes and heart disease, work stress, feeling inadequate (because we can never keep up with the Jone's- those f#ckers are actually broke).

My favorite lyrics from "This Land is your Land":

"While I was walking, I saw a sign there.
And on the sign, it said no trespassing
But on the other side, it didn't say nothing
That side was made for you and me "

The sign said "no trespassing."

But it might have said "Beef is what's for dinner." it might have had a picture of happy people in an SUV.
I didn't put the sign their.
I don't need some sucker telling me what it says.

On the other side, the sign says nothing. There's a forest, a sunset. A trail that leads to the river....

Bear in mind I don't think it's solvable by individual action, but I and my spouse walk/bike to work and we don't have air conditioning, and we almost never eat beef or pork.

It doesn't make sense for me to install solar with my electric bill so low. I suppose if the summers get hot enough that I need A/C I'll do the full electrification then and go heat pump, solar, and induction cooktop.

I'm skeptical that there is any such thing as a dryer for clothes that is not "energy intensive." Unfortunately many people buy the marketing that says buying the latest green device is good for the environment. Somehow people are happy to give corporations money for "energy star" dryers instead of buying a clothes line. Similarly, people say "there is nothing individuals can do," in order to avoid simple things like hanging their clothes on the line. But anything that the government mandates will eventually be done by the people.

One simple government solution towards solving the climate crisis would be to outlaw clothes dryers. But if the government mandated drying clothes on a line, then many of the corporate donors to both political parties would lose the money that they make selling dryers and electrical power. Not going to happen. Thus, the climate crisis will only be solved by making corporations and their owners richer.

Maybe some of the engineers and scientist types can do some calculations on the subject of drying clothes on the line. My rough calculations on the cooling effect are below:

Today I put out about two dozen garments to dry. I weighed one t-shirt after it came out of washer (warm cycle -- never use hot) and again after it dried outside: 103 grams less mass. Call it 100 grams of water evaporated. It takes about 2250 joules to vaporize one gram of water (that's at 100 degrees C, so some ChE can fine tune this calculation at 75 degrees and 40 percent relative humidity). But roughly, drying one t-shirt on a line is about 225 KJ of energy removed from the atmosphere.

Does one t-shirt dryed on a line represent a significant amount of energy? 225KJ is 0.25MJ, and I've read that a Tesla model Y averages about 1 MJ per mile. So one t-shirt will get you about a quarter mile in a Tesla. I'm guessing that my small load of laundry today was the equivalent of about 20 t-shirts, so the heat energy I removed from the atmosphere would drive a Tesla Y a distance of 5 miles.

Please correct my math and thermodynamics. Also please tell me how much energy it takes for you to dry about 20 t-shirts and the source of your energy.

Also what is more straightforward and simple a solution to reduce energy and carbon use than drying clothes on a line? Nearly 100 percent of Americans use clothes dryers. Maybe 10% of the rest of the planet uses clothes dryers. So is putting clothes on a line too much work for rich Americans? No wonder US is leader per capita in carbon emissions.

No way will government solve this problem if people in America are so selfish and lazy.

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It doesn't really matter what Phil is saying, the music of his voice is the appropriate soundtrack for a bicycle race. HTupolev

How will this work in upstate NY, North Dakota, Minn.(to name a few places) in January

Different laws for different areas and time periods. I know, it will be hard to enforce

Really?

It will work just fine in northern parts of the USA in January.

People do it in cold climates all over the world. First, clothes will dry even if they freeze when you hang them outside. Second, you can hang them in your house (and maybe don't have to run a humidifier as much). Works in Scandinavia. Will work in USA too. No big deal.

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It doesn't really matter what Phil is saying, the music of his voice is the appropriate soundtrack for a bicycle race. HTupolev