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Re: Strength Training, Science vs N=1 [Frank Day]
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Two comments:

1) I don't think anyone here - not even Frank - can be accussed of playing a "shell game" with definitions.

Actually, I think you could be accused of such. You know very well what people are talking about when the talk about "strength" on the bike and strength training for the bike. You know very well they are not talking about 1 rep max strength, the only definition you seem to accept, yet you will not engage them in this discussion.


There is only one accepted definition of strength. Until people understand it, and how it differs from other physiological determinants of performance in various sports, it is really pointless to try to go any further.

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2) While it certainly possible that future studies might demonstrate a beneficial effect of weight training on endurance cycling performance in competitive cyclists*, that would not:

A) change the fact that no such studies have been published* as of today;

according to you this is settled science and there is no possiblity that anyone who think otherwise could possibly be right


No, all I am saying is that, as of today, no published study* has shown that strength training improves endurance cycling performance in trained cyclists (whereas about a half-dozen have reported that it does not). Again, you can only go by the data that are available (wasn't this a point you were harping on previously in this thread?).

*There is one abstract, but until the details become available with publication of the entire paper, it is difficult to say what it really means.


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B) necessarily mean that these putative newer studies are correct and older studies are wrong, and/or;

Huh? What a stupid argument.


It's not a "stupid argument", but simply a statement of fact: the publication of new data does not necessarily mean that prior data are automatically wrong or obsolete.

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Until the study is done and the data is analyzed one cannot say anything about any future study.


Precisely my point - thank you for helping me make it.

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C) prove that strength, per se, plays a role in determining endurance cycling performance.


No, I'm saying that you need to distinguish between the role of strength, per se, and the putative benefits of strength training - these are two different issues, since strength training can potential impact other aspects of physiological function as well (e.g., improve running economy in runners, presumably by "stiffening their springs").

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*As the saying goes in science, if it isn't published, it doesn't exist (which is just pithy way of saying that the onus is upon generating the data to share it with the world if they hope to convince people that it/they is/are correct).
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If it isn't published it doesn't exist. LOL.


In science, if it isn't published it is as if it doesn't exist. IOW, publication is how data are "vetted" for mass consumption; failure to publish therefore means that no one wants to accept your results (and they can't cite them even if they wished to).

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Lance and Carmichael write an article on how he trains and why and "because it isn't in a peer reviewed journal" it should be ignored. Lance trains with weights and because we know about it only from Youtube, it should be ignored? Is that what you are saying?


Yes (especially considering that Carmichael/Armstrong are well-known for their attempts to play head-games with their competition...consider, for example, the report in VeloNews today that Armstrong is as fit now as he was in April of most of his Tour-winning years. Fact, or fiction?).

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Well, if you say "there is no evidence" ever you are most certainly almost always wrong. A more correct response would be "the preponderance of evidence I am aware of shows" but an even better response would be "I interpret the evidence to show" But, to say there is "no evidence" is crazy.


By "no evidence" I mean "no published papers". IOW, I'm not relying on "the preponderance of the evidence" or even how I interpret, but merely stating a verifiable fact.

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One of the reasons that I'm always so vociferous about this topic is in hopes of stimulating someone, somewhere, to try to prove me wrong. After nearly two decades of posting such comments to the web, though, it still hasn't happened.

LOL. Who here do you think is going to have the resources to do a "proper" study and get it published in a peer reviewed journal to "prove you wrong".


I know for a fact some of Armstrong's closest and longest-standing advisors monitor this and/or other groups to which I post (hi Dean!). So, too, does the head physiologist for the AIS (hi Dave!), those who work with the Cervelo TestTeam (hi Damon), one of the leading cycling biomechanists in the world (hi Jim!), etc. As well, a number of my other academic colleagues read lists such as this one, not to mention the myriad number of graduate students out there who are still transitioning in their identify from athlete to scientist. IOW, web forums such as this have far greater reach than you seem to realize.

(And while I was typing the above, who should call me on my cell phone but Dean...how ironic!)
Last edited by: Andrew Coggan: Jan 21, 10 11:51

Edit Log:

  • Post edited by Andrew Coggan (Dawson Saddle) on Jan 21, 10 11:48
  • Post edited by Andrew Coggan (Dawson Saddle) on Jan 21, 10 11:51