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Economic View from a leading investor
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I went to a dinner where a leading investor spoke. Here are the highlights:

- The longest recession ever was 16 months. He thinks best case we entered into a recession in November of 2007 or worst case January 2008. This would put us well into the later half of the cycle, which will be painful but short.

- We are setting the base for a 10 - 15 year bull run. The stock market has never performed worse in the last 10 years, yet corporate profit expansion has never been better.

- The market will not rally until bond yields come down on the long end. Right now you should be in munis of solid states that are yielding 7% - 8% risk free.

- TARP will make money. Historical yields on toilet quality mortgage packages are well above the prices people are contemplating buying them. Really smart vulture guys are buying at the 50% - 60% levels. He and Buffet are also buying at these levels.

- We will see a healthy level of deflation before we see inflation. He predicted $50/barrel oil. Demand has been slowing for a year. As long as money velocity turns to favorable, government can pull out the excess liquidity before it becomes inflationary.

- The dollar has turned the corner and will rally from here against the Euro.

- Governments will drive LIBOR down to force interbank lending. Europe is much worse off than the U.S. in terms of bank health.

- Cash on the balance sheets or corporates has never been higher. If they all bought back there stock their P/Es would be trading at a 50% discount to the historical market average.

- He and Buffet are buying U.S. equities for their personal accounts.

I'm not sure I agree with all these prognostications, but he made a convincing argument.
Last edited by: centermiddy: Oct 25, 08 13:33
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Re: Economic View from Charlie Munger [centermiddy] [ In reply to ]
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thanks for sharing. And what if what we are facing is worse than just a 16 month recession?

�The greater danger for most of us is not that our aim is too high and we miss it, but that it is too low and we reach it.� -Michelangelo

MoodBoost Drink : Mood Support + Energy.
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Re: Economic View from Charlie Munger [Mito Chondria] [ In reply to ]
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The worst case scenario in his mind is a "W" shaped recession. There were a number of corporations who say this tightening of credit coming and refinanced. If the economy does not kick up in a sustained way, they could drive us right back into a contraction. The reason that I don't believe it will be much longer than the historical average is you are seeing unprecedented amounts of government intervention, which you did not have in the depression era. While at times controversial and misguided government intervention has historical been proven to be a better rule of thumb then leaving these problems to the free market.
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Re: Economic View from Charlie Munger [centermiddy] [ In reply to ]
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I appreciate you sharing this with us but I think he is too optimistic. I don't expect things to get "better" until about 2011 and right now, with all the turmoil, I am not sure what "better" means. ;)

"The great pleasure in life is doing what people say you cannot do."
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Re: Economic View from Charlie Munger [jkca1] [ In reply to ]
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Check out my blog later this weekend. I'll post some of the data. What you will see is a marked diversion between what the numbers are actually pointing too and the impact it has had on the market. Munger believes the worst is still ahead of us in this recession -- things will get worse before they get better. Further, when he says improvement he means positive GDP growth. Things could be painful and we could still be on the up trend. Consensus is 2009 is a write-off and 2010 is open to optimism.
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Re: Economic View from Charlie Munger [centermiddy] [ In reply to ]
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"The worst case scenario in his mind is a "W" shaped recession"

Ha! It wasn't too long ago that everything was great in the housing market and it would only appreciate. Then it was just a slowdown. Then stabilizing prices. Then just subrpime....

Not too long ago, everything was great in the Economy, too. I wouldn't be surprised if we really have another depression intensity economic slowdown. How would people assess the situation if unemployment were at 14% right now? There are tons of self-employed people out there that still have a "job" but no work.

I'm not sure if you're saying that there was no government intervention during the Great Depression or whether today our government is desperately trying to fix it to a much great extent.

The "free" market takes all the blame but there was no free market to begin with. The quasi-private Feder artificially setting the rates is not very free-market and a significant root to how this problem started. Sure, government interention has historical been proven to be the better rule of thumb, IN THE SHORT TERM. Take a look those monetary policies and how they affected various fiat currency throughout history as a direct result. I don't think "we" will be out of this by 2011/12. I think America entered a new era.

�The greater danger for most of us is not that our aim is too high and we miss it, but that it is too low and we reach it.� -Michelangelo

MoodBoost Drink : Mood Support + Energy.
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Re: Economic View from Charlie Munger [Mito Chondria] [ In reply to ]
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I think the widely prevailing view is that we are going to enter a technical depression. The data does not support that assertion. Further, what we are seeing is a massive deflation, as opposed to significant inflation, which was all the rage 12 months ago to pundits. There are money good corporate bonds yielding 10% - 12%. There are money good muni bonds yielding 7% - 8%. Oil was $125+ a barrel in a consumption market that has been decelerating over the past 4 years. The data reeks of inefficient market theory and speculation/fear mongering.

The real question is will the government be able to get the money velocity up by injecting liquidity, but then pull it out on the back end to avoid inflation. Yes, you are correct that the monetary policies of today are merely a band aid that leads to hemorrhaging of tomorrow. However, I think you have to look at the U.S. economy a singular case. The monetary disasters of other regions often times have their roots deep in political uncertainty or gridlock.
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Re: Economic View from Charlie Munger [centermiddy] [ In reply to ]
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My summary is up on my blog, if anyone is interested. Thanks.
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Post deleted by balanceguy [ In reply to ]
Re: Economic View from a leading investor [centermiddy] [ In reply to ]
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several questions:

if the economist thinks we're priming for a bull market, why does he say we should be in municipal bonds?

again, according to the economist, we would be buying... what? how much detail would you be willing to give? out of 100 percent, what percentage corporate bonds? and what bonds? what percent muni bonds? and what bonds? what percent equities?

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: Economic View from a leading investor [centermiddy] [ In reply to ]
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I hope the guy is right but I'm a little less optimistic. I don't think we have ever had the current economic hat trick that we have now. So much potential for us to move to significant depression if consumers and businesses quit spending. Throw in some higher personal and business taxes from Barry and you have a recipe for disaster.

_________________________________
I'll be what I am
A solitary man
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Re: Economic View from a leading investor [last tri in 83] [ In reply to ]
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"Throw in some higher personal and business taxes from Barry and you have a recipe for disaster."

i have high hopes for this thread. can we keep it free from partisan views on what obama will do if he is elected president? please feel free to opine on the subject if you want, but there are 100 other threads made for the purpose.


Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: Economic View from a leading investor [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Dan, I think it is absolutely pertinant to this discussion and should play into you investment strategy.

_________________________________
I'll be what I am
A solitary man
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Re: Economic View from a leading investor [last tri in 83] [ In reply to ]
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Throw in some higher personal and business taxes from Barry and you have a recipe for disaster.

And Bush's tax cuts helped us how? We are in the worse financial mess in a century and the Fed and Treasury are currently writing checks in the trillions that the American taxpayer is going to have to someday pay, regardless of who is president.
Remember it was George H.W. Bush who said during his campaign, "Read my lips. No new taxes". But the economy was shit and he ended up having to do just that.
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Re: Economic View from a leading investor [fitzie] [ In reply to ]
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I posted a chart in a different thread that utilized independent analysis of current "stimulus" options, extending the "bust tax cuts" in no way paid for itself.
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Re: Economic View from Charlie Munger [centermiddy] [ In reply to ]
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Nice report Bryan. You have a talent for bringing a lot of information into a concise, easy to read story.

_________________________________
I'll be what I am
A solitary man
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Re: Economic View from a leading investor [centermiddy] [ In reply to ]
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He's obviously speculating (as is everyone) but I do believe that whether it's another 6 months or 2 years of "recession" like atmosphere, this will lead to a nice bull market. Plenty of history to back this up.

The funny part is no one really wants to hear that right now. They'd rather wallow in their own misery and believe all the doomsdayers. I'm a long term investor so what they hell do I care if my account drops 50% in a 2 year period. I'm still buying and my existing investments are reinvesting dividends buying more shares at lower prices.
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Re: Economic View from Charlie Munger [balanceguy] [ In reply to ]
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When inflation comes back, you will be golden. Literally. Good thing you are not in copper.
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Re: Economic View from a leading investor [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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What he is saying is that there are government, state and corporate obligations that have great yields and are fully cash collateralized on the balance sheets of those parties to who it has recourse to. What you are buying is a stream of income in the form of dividends and then the redemption at face value upon expiration. You could buy and sell whenever you would like, since the market in these securities is liquid. Said differently, the chance of default associated with these instruments is very low, yet they are exhibit junk like yields. Thus, buying a corporate bond fund or a muni bond fund from Vanguard would offer you a good risk reward tradeoff. Especially, relative to equities, which could see further price depreciation.

That all being said, individual portfolio allocations are a function of their personal risk reward tradeoff. You have to be comfortable with the potential losses. For me, we are a married couple in our mid-thirties. We have a fixed income allocation of about 35%. Of which 50% of that is in corporates, 25% of that is in munis and 25% is in treasuries. This compares to a long term recommended portfolio balance of 10% - 15% given the amount of time we have until we "need" the money. You, and others, may not be similiarly situated. Note -- I don't play individual equities. I think it is a fools errand for a long term investor.
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Re: Economic View from a leading investor [walnutcreek tri] [ In reply to ]
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Just something for people to keep in mind. This is not my analysis, but I believe these figures are fairly accurate. The bottom line is that the HELOC piggy bank is gone. How is consumer spending going to pick up the slack this time like it did back in the tech bubble? The latter chart explains why Greenspan's reputation and legacy has been ruined. More importantly, it represents the end of the false belief that home ownership is a right. Speaking of Greenspan, his policy decisions may have been flawed, but at least he had the guts and dignity to admit that his view of the world was wrong. His legacy is gone, but at least he can look people in the eye and admit his faults. That Barney Frank and others couldn't do the same and continue to refuse to do the same, only underscores the fact that they are spineless and pathetic--the bottom feeders of the political ecosystem if you will.

http://www.clusterstock.com/...sion-will-be-a-doozy






"I really wish you would post more often. You always have some good stuff to say. I copied it below just in case someone missed it." BarryP to Chainpin on 10/21/06

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Re: Economic View from a leading investor [chainpin] [ In reply to ]
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What's happening right now is adjusting for this. Yea, we probably won't be having consecutive years of 20%+ stock market growth like the late 90's but more likely measured steady growth.
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Re: Economic View from a leading investor [walnutcreek tri] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
What's happening right now is adjusting for this. Yea, we probably won't be having consecutive years of 20%+ stock market growth like the late 90's but more likely measured steady growth.


That could be true, the market may very well be discounting this, however, as someone that works in the investment industry, I can say that many people I know and some I work with have no idea about that first chart. GDP growth expectations along with earnings expectations seem way to high. This is where the art of investing comes in, trying to figure out what is discounted and what is not. Time will tell.

"I really wish you would post more often. You always have some good stuff to say. I copied it below just in case someone missed it." BarryP to Chainpin on 10/21/06

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Re: Economic View from a leading investor [chainpin] [ In reply to ]
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Greenspan got in front of the world and said he was wrong about the free market, that took balls.

We've sadly built our economy on individual consumer spending. Some suggest that we need to shift the ratio such that businesses drive the economy and that debt doesn't artificially prop up the economy (the 2/28 loans plus insatiable desire to commoditize bad mortgage securities sure were a part of that).


We're going to have a second stimulus package, it's a foregone conclusion at this point. The question is: how do we best spend those funds to help the short-term and long-term. Doing anything related to housing prices is absolutely bad, we need to let prices hit a natural equilibrium (a bottom) so that we can rebound.
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Re: Economic View from a leading investor [chainpin] [ In reply to ]
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"The bottom line is that the HELOC piggy bank is gone."
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Considering the average annual return for the S&P in the decade prior to 2000 - 2007 (the years in which HELOCs were so popular), it appears that the market may not necessarily miss that "piggy bank".

Haim

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"Sometimes you need to think INSIDE the box!" -- ME
"Why squirrel hate me?"
Last edited by: Haim: Oct 25, 08 21:46
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Re: Economic View from a leading investor [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
several questions:

if the economist thinks we're priming for a bull market, why does he say we should be in municipal bonds?

again, according to the economist, we would be buying... what? how much detail would you be willing to give? out of 100 percent, what percentage corporate bonds? and what bonds? what percent muni bonds? and what bonds? what percent equities?

Since the majority (?) of these guys believe the market is efficient in the long haul, I'd bet they'd tell you to go to Vanguard and buy some index funds and muni-bond funds.
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