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Can you make this set?
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I have an aspirational swim set. Aspirational in the sense that I aspire to complete it and I worry about aspirating during the set...

3x100 scy on 1:40, then 1:30, then 1:25, then 1:20. All consecutive, no extra rest.

Made most of the 1:25s today, no way on the 1:20s. I did a 1:17, 1:18 and 1:23 later on, but leaving on the 2:20!

Can you do that whole set? If so, what Olympic/ 70.3 times are you doing?

Aaron Bales
Lansing Triathlon Team
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Re: Can you make this set? [MI_Mumps] [ In reply to ]
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Yup, I could make that set in SCM.

I swam a hair under 30 minutes at 70.3 Muncie. No wetsuit. I think I was 17th OA out of the water, 2nd in my AG.

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Re: Can you make this set? [JasoninHalifax] [ In reply to ]
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Could you do it in LCM? How “easy” would it be in SCM?

Two years ago the swim mat at Muncie was at the entrance to transition, not (I believe) at the edge of the lake. We ran a good 200 yards up that hill to transition. Is that included in your hair under 30 swim?

Aaron Bales
Lansing Triathlon Team
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Re: Can you make this set? [MI_Mumps] [ In reply to ]
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MI_Mumps wrote:
Could you do it in LCM? How “easy” would it be in SCM?

Two years ago the swim mat at Muncie was at the entrance to transition, not (I believe) at the edge of the lake. We ran a good 200 yards up that hill to transition. Is that included in your hair under 30 swim?

I honestly don’t remember that detail, it might have been up there. I also didn’t swim at all for 2 weeks before the race (travelling).

I’m not too bothered about OW times anyway, far too variable based on conditions.

LCM, I couldn’t do it now. If I was in good swim shape I might be able to.

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Re: Can you make this set? [MI_Mumps] [ In reply to ]
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It's hard to answer that without sounding arrogant. But, yes I could make that set. I was never a swimmer until triathlons and likely missed my calling. lol.

70.3 and 140.6 normally my times are well under 30 minutes/ hour with a wetsuit. Right at 30 minutes/ an hour without a wetsuit. My times for Olympic races vary so much between courses it seems a useless measure. Heck even year to year on the same course!
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Re: Can you make this set? [MI_Mumps] [ In reply to ]
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MI_Mumps wrote:
I have an aspirational swim set. Aspirational in the sense that I aspire to complete it and I worry about aspirating during the set...

3x100 scy on 1:40, then 1:30, then 1:25, then 1:20. All consecutive, no extra rest.

Made most of the 1:25s today, no way on the 1:20s. I did a 1:17, 1:18 and 1:23 later on, but leaving on the 2:20!

Can you do that whole set? If so, what Olympic/ 70.3 times are you doing?

I think maybe a better question is how far could you get in that set, and what are your 70.3 / oly swim splits?

If you want a really good “aspirational” set, and you are good at reading a pace clock, start at 1:40 and drop 1 second off each repeat. Go til you can’t make any more.

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Re: Can you make this set? [MI_Mumps] [ In reply to ]
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Nope; the 1:25s would break me at some point and I’d certainly snap on the 1:20.

I’m swimming :28 on a good day at the 70.3.

Scott

"I was tired, so I shut off my brain and my body finished without me"
~KFU, age 13
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Re: Can you make this set? [MI_Mumps] [ In reply to ]
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Yes.

I do a similar set:

1×100 @ 1:50
2x100 @ 1:40
3×100 @ 1:30
4×100 @ 1:20
100s on 1:10 until failure
I swim +/-25 for a half. Faster on a good day, 27ish on a bad day.

That said, the effort I put into a swim during a race is way lower than the effort it takes to do 100s on 1:10. My goal is to exit the water having expended as little energy as possible.
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Re: Can you make this set? [MI_Mumps] [ In reply to ]
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I could make that. The 1:20s would REALLY hurt. I would not be able to do a cool down after either haha would just want to die on the lane line.
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Re: Can you make this set? [MI_Mumps] [ In reply to ]
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I always advise against putting too much emphasis on rep times in scy. Turns and underwater work become increasingly important and it doesn't translate to outdoor speed.

For example I could just about hit that set today and would be able to cruise it when in peak fitness. But that's because I swam properly in my younger days and am very efficient at the walls. I thought I was going to drown last week at the end of an hour session and it would currently be a real struggle to get through 1500+m open water swim. Even at my peak I'm average in the swim. In my last 70.3 I swam 35 min (as a 30 year old male) while the whole field average for the swim was just under 43min. As a small athlete I can't generate the power needed to perform well in open water and all the efficiency cheats you learn in the pool don't help.
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Re: Can you make this set? [MI_Mumps] [ In reply to ]
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1200 yards in 17:45?

I could hit the total time, but I probably couldn't hit the times at the end.

"...the street finds its own uses for things"
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Re: Can you make this set? [MI_Mumps] [ In reply to ]
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Today - No. But I haven't touched that water in anyway whatsoever since October 2014.

During tri training - Absolutely and without too much difficulty. Most of the time I was a 27-29 swimmer in 70.3 and a 60-64 swimmer in IM. I think I had a couple of 67-69 IM swims but that was with very little swim beforehand.
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Re: Can you make this set? [MI_Mumps] [ In reply to ]
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Yes, and could easily do it in meters when in shape too (which I am happily not at the moment!). Swam 25:55 last HIM (w/ wetsuit).

Strava I Instagram I Team Every Man Jack I PM me for 25% off discount code at everymanjack.com
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Re: Can you make this set? [MI_Mumps] [ In reply to ]
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I might give this a shot on Friday and see how far I get. I’m an AOS swimmer and swam a 34:30 two years ago. Previously I probably would’ve cracked on the first 1:25. But I’ve been swimming 5x per week since early September and have been making good gains, so we’ll see

Matt
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Re: Can you make this set? [MI_Mumps] [ In reply to ]
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This might be my lunch swim set. Will need to report back later!

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Re: Can you make this set? [JasoninHalifax] [ In reply to ]
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JasoninHalifax wrote:
MI_Mumps wrote:
I have an aspirational swim set. Aspirational in the sense that I aspire to complete it and I worry about aspirating during the set...

3x100 scy on 1:40, then 1:30, then 1:25, then 1:20. All consecutive, no extra rest.

Made most of the 1:25s today, no way on the 1:20s. I did a 1:17, 1:18 and 1:23 later on, but leaving on the 2:20!

Can you do that whole set? If so, what Olympic/ 70.3 times are you doing?


I think maybe a better question is how far could you get in that set, and what are your 70.3 / oly swim splits?

If you want a really good “aspirational” set, and you are good at reading a pace clock, start at 1:40 and drop 1 second off each repeat. Go til you can’t make any more.

Now that sounds fun. I'm definitely going to try that in the near future!
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Re: Can you make this set? [MI_Mumps] [ In reply to ]
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I could make that plus another 3 on 1:15 and I'm a 28~ 70.3 swimmer in a wetsuit
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Re: Can you make this set? [MI_Mumps] [ In reply to ]
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I can make that in yards
HIM swim 25:43

Proud member of Fishtwitch and the ST Grammar Police
disclaimer: PhD not MD
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Re: Can you make this set? [MI_Mumps] [ In reply to ]
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Yes, I could make that set right now scy and scm. I would have difficulty with the 1:20 if lcm. Retired pro, top-level triathlon swimmer, but not collegiate level swimmer. My IM swims were typically 50ish as in 50:ish. I've been swimming 2x3,000 each week since I retired 4 years ago.

Another set that one of our ex-coaches had us do was...

1, 1, 1, 2, 2, 2, 3, 3, 3 x 100 for a total of 18 with a descending interval. You could add a 4, 4, 4 and get a total of 30.

The send offs were usually either 130, 125, 120 or 125, 120, 115 for scm, you'd go 5" faster per 100 if scy. Almost all of the swimmers were 1:05 or faster IM swimmers typically sub-55 for the faster group.

That seems more like a 70.3 or olympic set. I've found that when you get over the 70.3 distance, there was a pretty big discrepancy between some pool swimmers that could do very well on short rest 100s, but did not do well in open water. The Mrs. -JBMarshTX was a good example. She'd be right there on a set of 100s, but I'd be several minutes ahead at the end of an IM and a couple of minutes ahead at the end of a 70.3 or Oly.


Brandon Marsh - Website | @BrandonMarshTX | Cervelo | RokaWetsuits | 1stEndurance | ATC Bikeshop |
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Re: Can you make this set? [MI_Mumps] [ In reply to ]
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Yes, I can make that set. I usually do my slow warmup sets at about 1:30. In open water it's another story for me, but I typically do the 70.3 swim in 30 minutes (hoping to hit 28 this coming season) and Olympic I'm about a 21.

I wouldn't focus on even trying to do those negatives though until you can properly, and relatively easily, swim long distances at 1:30ish. I suspect that if you're trying to do something negative like this when you're not ready then you'll have big trouble breathing.

Train Hard. Race Easy.
ENVE Race Team
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Re: Can you make this set? [JasoninHalifax] [ In reply to ]
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JasoninHalifax wrote:
If you want a really good “aspirational” set, and you are good at reading a pace clock, start at 1:40 and drop 1 second off each repeat. Go til you can’t make any more.

I would fail mentally before failing physically trying this set. I consider my self a decent swimmer and proficient at mental math, but I am terrible at doing both simultaneously.
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Re: Can you make this set? [TennesseeJed] [ In reply to ]
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TennesseeJed wrote:
JasoninHalifax wrote:
If you want a really good “aspirational” set, and you are good at reading a pace clock, start at 1:40 and drop 1 second off each repeat. Go til you can’t make any more.

I would fail mentally before failing physically trying this set. I consider my self a decent swimmer and proficient at mental math, but I am terrible at doing both simultaneously.

It’s actually not that bad, because the sum of the series is cyclical.

I’ve done similar sets as 50’s starting on 60.

If you leave on the top, your off times will be T, T-1, T-3, T-6, T-10 , T-15, etc. So every 5th and 6th repeat you’ll be going on some multiple of 5.

I’ve also taken a cheat sheet, but it’s easier to just figure it out in your head.

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Re: Can you make this set? [JasoninHalifax] [ In reply to ]
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JasoninHalifax wrote:
TennesseeJed wrote:
JasoninHalifax wrote:
If you want a really good “aspirational” set, and you are good at reading a pace clock, start at 1:40 and drop 1 second off each repeat. Go til you can’t make any more.


I would fail mentally before failing physically trying this set. I consider my self a decent swimmer and proficient at mental math, but I am terrible at doing both simultaneously.


It’s actually not that bad, because the sum of the series is cyclical.

I’ve done similar sets as 50’s starting on 60.

If you leave on the top, your off times will be T, T-1, T-3, T-6, T-10 , T-15, etc. So every 5th and 6th repeat you’ll be going on some multiple of 5.

I’ve also taken a cheat sheet, but it’s easier to just figure it out in your head.

Or you could wear a WATCH
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Re: Can you make this set? [CyclingClyde] [ In reply to ]
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CyclingClyde wrote:
JasoninHalifax wrote:
TennesseeJed wrote:
JasoninHalifax wrote:
If you want a really good “aspirational” set, and you are good at reading a pace clock, start at 1:40 and drop 1 second off each repeat. Go til you can’t make any more.


I would fail mentally before failing physically trying this set. I consider my self a decent swimmer and proficient at mental math, but I am terrible at doing both simultaneously.


It’s actually not that bad, because the sum of the series is cyclical.

I’ve done similar sets as 50’s starting on 60.

If you leave on the top, your off times will be T, T-1, T-3, T-6, T-10 , T-15, etc. So every 5th and 6th repeat you’ll be going on some multiple of 5.

I’ve also taken a cheat sheet, but it’s easier to just figure it out in your head.

Or you could wear a WATCH

Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha










No.

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Re: Can you make this set? [JasoninHalifax] [ In reply to ]
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In college we started on 1:30 SCY. the first 20 or so were boring, the next 5-6 were solid, and the last 10 or so were hell. I think i missed on 0:54 or 0:55 a couple of times, which is pushing a 4:45 last 500.

To the OP- now I could do that set SCM, maybe adding on 3@1:15 on a good day, and I've swum a couple half distance swims no wetsuit at 27:00. I only swim about 2.5k meters 2x per week these days though...
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Re: Can you make this set? [tallswimmer] [ In reply to ]
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tallswimmer wrote:
In college we started on 1:30 SCY. the first 20 or so were boring, the next 5-6 were solid, and the last 10 or so were hell. I think i missed on 0:54 or 0:55 a couple of times, which is pushing a 4:45 last 500.

To the OP- now I could do that set SCM, maybe adding on 3@1:15 on a good day, and I've swum a couple half distance swims no wetsuit at 27:00. I only swim about 2.5k meters 2x per week these days though...

We did the same thing as a test set. (we trained in SCY). I think my best was that I failed on the 58. Tough set. Not sure if you did it the same way, but we all started together and as you missed you got out of the pool. That year our good D swimmers had graduated, so I was the closest thing to a D guy on the men’s side. I was the last man standing that year.

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Re: Can you make this set? [JasoninHalifax] [ In reply to ]
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Yeah everyone started together, and when you missed, you had to do 50's fly on 1:30 or something. I did it 3 times maybe, and was either last or 2nd to last standing each time.
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Re: Can you make this set? [MI_Mumps] [ In reply to ]
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Yes I used to make that set 3 years ago in prep for 2015 IMCDA. I swam 28:30 half point split of a 58:30 IM swim time that day. I had my best race to date than in 108F. (58:30 is average 1:20/100y- gives you an idea that if you can swim 1:20/100y all day long, you can actually make that set holding 1:12-1:10 for the@1:20 part....)
I swam 3 IMs all were 60min or less- wetsuit though sleeveless. I have had many 30min wetsuit half swims, and several 29min or less.
I was never a swimmer. I started swimming at the age of 37 as a triathlete. I do coach club swimming for living.
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Re: Can you make this set? [MI_Mumps] [ In reply to ]
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And the verdict - I exploded on the 1:20s. 10th was 1:18, 11th was 1:19. Left on 2:00 and swam the final one in 1:13.

I'm a 19:XX-21:XX Olympic, 28:XX-31:XX 70.3 swimmer. Usually dependent on whether I make a group or swim by myself.

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Re: Can you make this set? [MI_Mumps] [ In reply to ]
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I couldn't make that set.... but I'll give it a try! I suspect i'd fall apart near the end of the 1:25s, maybe hit the first 1:20 if I was having the swim of my life. I have been hitting 32-33 this past year in 70.3

808 > NYC > PDX
2019: 70.3 Santa Cruz, IMLou
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Re: Can you make this set? [MI_Mumps] [ In reply to ]
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Where are the 3 on 1:35? Kidding aside, it's been a long time since doing a descending interval set to failure.

I'll see how it goes tomorrow, 3@ 1:40/35/30/25/20/15 .. 10? Gasp.

Regarding OWS times.. I "can go" 19~/26~, comfy would be 20+/28 .. wetsuited.
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Re: Can you make this set? [MI_Mumps] [ In reply to ]
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I could do that set in scm too.

Slightly ahead of Jason at Muncie this past yr, & a 54m & 58m Ironman swim this yr, both with wetsuit & neither were current aided. My fastest 70.3 was a current aided wetsuit swim at 25 minutes, & although I haven’t done an Olympic in years with a wetsuit I’ve been sub 21 at Nationals & Worlds.
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Re: Can you make this set? [MI_Mumps] [ In reply to ]
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This would be incredibly easy. I've done 4200scy broken but essentially leaving on 1:20/100 for the entire thing.

Also, the way you word things is odd to me... if I have a set leaving on 1:20, I still rest. It might only be 10 seconds but there is rest at the wall.

I never push the pace in a 70.3, so roughly 27:00 and 54:30 for a full.
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Re: Can you make this set? [MI_Mumps] [ In reply to ]
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I could make this set and probably repeat the set a few times. A few years ago, I showed up to NOVA Masters Triple-Crown Part 3, a 100x100scy on the 1:20. I got through 33 before failure and had to throw some 75s in every 3rd or 4th after that.
My back/hip issue won’t let me flip turn now, but pretty sure I could still get through this challenge. This month I’ll be swimming a straight 5000 hopefully in lcm, as it is a requirement to beat 1:40 and then for seeding purposes for next year’s Portland Bridge Swim – an 11 miler in the Willamette River. Two years ago, I was 11th OA in like 4:34, about :45 off the fastest swimmers there. Looking to better that, even though I’m 63 now.

Proud member of FISHTWITCH: doing a bit more than fish exercise now.
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Re: Can you make this set? [MI_Mumps] [ In reply to ]
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This is the hardest set I have done.
4x100 scy - leave on 1:45
4x100 scy - leave on 1:40
4x100 scy - leave on 1:35
4x100 scy - leave on 1:30

30 seconds between each set.
I still shudder thinking about that.
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Re: Can you make this set? [MI_Mumps] [ In reply to ]
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In high school and college I made 100x100 on 1:05 for 3 consecutive years (pre-holidays torture set). Averaged about 1:01 on each 100, then rinse and repeat. It was more boring than a 3 hour trainer ride.

Now (15 years later) I could probably do your set down to 1:05 for 3 of them (depends on the day)

I'm generally swimming 25:xx and 53:xx in HIM and IM races

Strava
1999 LC Jr Nats 200m Fly Champion
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Re: Can you make this set? [BrentwoodTriGuy] [ In reply to ]
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BrentwoodTriGuy wrote:
This would be incredibly easy. I've done 4200scy broken but essentially leaving on 1:20/100 for the entire thing.

Also, the way you word things is odd to me... if I have a set leaving on 1:20, I still rest. It might only be 10 seconds but there is rest at the wall.

I never push the pace in a 70.3, so roughly 27:00 and 54:30 for a full.

Sorry - still trying to master swim lingo. I mean leaving on the 1:40, 1:30, etc. I did a 1:23 for my first which mean :17 rest (whoops).

Aaron Bales
Lansing Triathlon Team
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Re: Can you make this set? [MI_Mumps] [ In reply to ]
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MI_Mumps wrote:
BrentwoodTriGuy wrote:
This would be incredibly easy. I've done 4200scy broken but essentially leaving on 1:20/100 for the entire thing.

Also, the way you word things is odd to me... if I have a set leaving on 1:20, I still rest. It might only be 10 seconds but there is rest at the wall.

I never push the pace in a 70.3, so roughly 27:00 and 54:30 for a full.

Sorry - still trying to master swim lingo. I mean leaving on the 1:40, 1:30, etc. I did a 1:23 for my first which mean :17 rest (whoops).

You had it right. By “no extra rest” I take that to mean you went straight from one group of 3x100 to the next, with no additional recovery beyond what the interval naturally gives you.

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Re: Can you make this set? [MI_Mumps] [ In reply to ]
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Many moons ago I was working up to a 20x100 on the 115 and I used to do a set like this as a sort of progression set. Basically 4x130 (120-125), 4x125 (116-122), 4x120 (116-119), into 20x on the 115 (112-114). I'm in whatever pack there is and that dictates the times but usually around 24 mid. This was always done without flippys as well.


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Re: Can you make this set? [BrentwoodTriGuy] [ In reply to ]
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BrentwoodTriGuy wrote:

the way you word things is odd to me... if I have a set leaving on 1:20, I still rest. It might only be 10 seconds but there is rest at the wall.


I understood it to mean no extra rest between the groups of three; that it's a single 12x100 set, not four sets of 3x100. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯



Anyway, yes, I could make it. That would be pretty close to my capacity, however. If the set extended, I could maybe eek out one at 1:15 on a good day, but wouldn't make it to 3. I've never done a HIM, but I'm a 30 to 31 minute 1.2 mile OW racer (fresh water, no wetsuit). Would probably go ~3-4 sec/100 slower for a HIM opener, so somewhere in the 32's?

"They're made of latex, not nitroglycerin"
Last edited by: gary p: Dec 5, 18 12:12
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Re: Can you make this set? [ripple] [ In reply to ]
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ripple wrote:
Where are the 3 on 1:35? Kidding aside, it's been a long time since doing a descending interval set to failure.

I'll see how it goes tomorrow, 3@ 1:40/35/30/25/20/15 .. 10? Gasp.

Regarding OWS times.. I "can go" 19~/26~, comfy would be 20+/28 .. wetsuited.


Funny, as previously I was given this as 1:40, 1:35, 1:30, 1:25. Failed on the 1:25s, but I think I might have made that today! I rolled my eyes at the 1:20s...maybe someday.

Aaron Bales
Lansing Triathlon Team
Last edited by: MI_Mumps: Dec 5, 18 12:22
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Re: Can you make this set? [hadukla] [ In reply to ]
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hadukla wrote:
I couldn't make that set.... but I'll give it a try! I suspect i'd fall apart near the end of the 1:25s, maybe hit the first 1:20 if I was having the swim of my life. I have been hitting 32-33 this past year in 70.3

Sounds like we’re in the same neighborhood. I assume you’re faster on land - closest I’ve gotten to breaking 5 at a 70.3 was 5:04.

Aaron Bales
Lansing Triathlon Team
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Re: Can you make this set? [MI_Mumps] [ In reply to ]
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No, not a chance; though it may be a good goal to work on over the winter and a reason to get back in the pool. 37 min HIM.

the world's still turning? >>>>>>> the world's still turning
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Re: Can you make this set? [MI_Mumps] [ In reply to ]
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I could make that scm and maybe lcm. In scy, that's a warmup.

24-25 min 70.3
51-52 min 140.6

get comfortable being uncomfortable
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Re: Can you make this set? [MI_Mumps] [ In reply to ]
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No chance I could make it today, but it made me recall an experience I had in high school. After a few swimmers behaved poorly at a meet, we showed up for our next practice and EVERYONE was told to get in the pool and start doing 200s (SCY) on 2:00. I don't remember how long that went on, but a few poor bastards we're swimming continuously by the third 200.
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Re: Can you make this set? [MI_Mumps] [ In reply to ]
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MI_Mumps wrote:
hadukla wrote:
I couldn't make that set.... but I'll give it a try! I suspect i'd fall apart near the end of the 1:25s, maybe hit the first 1:20 if I was having the swim of my life. I have been hitting 32-33 this past year in 70.3


Sounds like we’re in the same neighborhood. I assume you’re faster on land - closest I’ve gotten to breaking 5 at a 70.3 was 5:04.

As always, depends. My best 70.3 thus far was a 5:08 in Hawai'i (based on %ile rank within AG, absolute AG placement and USAT score) whereas a few months later, I hit 4:51 at Maine, however conditions were absolutely perfect and I can say with 100% confidence, I was not as well trained for Maine.

In fact, if you want sub-5, I would highly recommend Maine, cold swim means you can and should go faster, and it is salt water, bike is barely affected by wind and the perfect balance between not being pancake flat and hardly classed as hilly so you aren't glued in aero for 2.5 hours, run is nice and cool (by triathlete standards) and flat.

808 > NYC > PDX
2019: 70.3 Santa Cruz, IMLou
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Re: Can you make this set? [CyclingClyde] [ In reply to ]
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That was a favorite workout of one of the Masters coaches at ASU. Except he started us at 1:30, then dropped 1 second per 100 scy.

Once a send-off was missed the swimmer dropped distance to 75 yards (another coach dropped us to 50 yards to keep all swimmers starting at the same end of the pool).

I watched a handful of ex-NCAA swimmers reach into the mid 50's after 3,000+ yards. One of those guys was a consistent 55 minute OW IM swim guy. Followed by a strong bike and above average run.

None of those workouts were "fun".

https://www.palmtreesahead.com/feed

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Re: Can you make this set? [MI_Mumps] [ In reply to ]
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MI_Mumps wrote:
I have an aspirational swim set. Aspirational in the sense that I aspire to complete it and I worry about aspirating during the set...

3x100 scy on 1:40, then 1:30, then 1:25, then 1:20. All consecutive, no extra rest.

Made most of the 1:25s today, no way on the 1:20s. I did a 1:17, 1:18 and 1:23 later on, but leaving on the 2:20!

Can you do that whole set? If so, what Olympic/ 70.3 times are you doing?

We used to do a set of 100s, starting on 1:30 and dropping :01 every interval (1:30, 1:29, 1:28...). I think I made it to 1:16 once. Hardest part was figuring out the leave times (I and another guy were the only ones able to do the math in our heads, so we led our lanes).

Did 100/200/300/400/500/400/300/200/100 all on 1:20/100 pace, no breaks (held 1:10/100 for all of them). So, yeah, I used to be able to do that. I did an 18:5x Oly swim at the time as part of a relay.

Olympic and 70.3 distances/conditions are notoriously inaccurate, so no real way to correlate pool set times and race times.

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"i disagree with your analysis [or judgment], nevertheless you have the responsibility of moderating this board so i honor your authority to make the moderating decisions."
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Re: Can you make this set? [MI_Mumps] [ In reply to ]
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That would be very easy. I regularly do 20-40 x50m LCM on 50", or 20-40 x100m, LCM again, on 90".
Oly swim times around 19'. HIM in 25'. IM below 50'/55' with/without suit.

STRAVA
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Re: Can you make this set? [GreatScott] [ In reply to ]
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GreatScott wrote:
Nope; the 1:25s would break me at some point and I’d certainly snap on the 1:20.

I’m swimming :28 on a good day at the 70.3.

Scott

Is "a good day" defined by short course, point to point with a current, with a wetsuit, and in a pack?

21x100 on 1:20 is 28:00.

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"i disagree with your analysis [or judgment], nevertheless you have the responsibility of moderating this board so i honor your authority to make the moderating decisions."
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Re: Can you make this set? [MI_Mumps] [ In reply to ]
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A lot of used to's and in the day we did this or that set, but as of today, I think I could make that set swimming, but it would be tough. I could pull it and add 3 more on the 1;15, but that would be super tough and a challenge set right now too..

No idea about what I can do in a legit triathlon swim, just haven't swam one in a long time...But in the used to categories, 23+ for a 1/2, and 50 flat at Kona(old long Kona swim course) was my best. Wetsuit swim for an ironman would have been a couple/few minutes faster I suppose. I did do a 26 for oceanside 70.3 when I was 50, accurate and very competitive, but I would have been about 5 seconds a 100 faster swimming that set back then too...
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Re: Can you make this set? [klehner] [ In reply to ]
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Just need my wettie and some feet. I’m generally 28-30 HM, 1:05 IM. Swam my first 5k this summer in 1:30, Waikiki RWS (no wettie, but good feet) in 1:05.

100s on a 1:20 sendoff means touching around 1:15, and I just can’t hold that for long. But I’ll give the set a shot next week and do my best to prove myself wrong.

Scott

"I was tired, so I shut off my brain and my body finished without me"
~KFU, age 13
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Re: Can you make this set? [MI_Mumps] [ In reply to ]
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When I'm swimming, all day every day. scy
Haven't been in the pool in a while.

I haven't done HIM or IM; so closest would be a stand alone 2.4 at the Waikiki Roughwater swim. 52:30 no wetsuit and stopped for a minute or so to watch a sea turtle. I'd never seen one before. Also just two days after doing the Maui Channel Swim.
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Re: Can you make this set? [djmsbr] [ In reply to ]
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I watched a handful of ex-NCAA swimmers reach into the mid 50's after 3,000+ yards. One of those guys was a consistent 55 minute OW IM swim guy.//

I think you must be misremembering something here. Any guy that can do that set to under a minute is not a 55 minute ironman swimmer. Any person in that category is a sub 50 non wetsuit swimmer all day long. There are maybe a handful(0ne hand maybe?) of pro triathletes that could do that set to somewhere under a minute, that is big league...
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Re: Can you make this set? [MI_Mumps] [ In reply to ]
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MI_Mumps wrote:
I have an aspirational swim set. Aspirational in the sense that I aspire to complete it and I worry about aspirating during the set...

3x100 scy on 1:40, then 1:30, then 1:25, then 1:20. All consecutive, no extra rest.

Made most of the 1:25s today, no way on the 1:20s. I did a 1:17, 1:18 and 1:23 later on, but leaving on the 2:20!

Can you do that whole set? If so, what Olympic/ 70.3 times are you doing?

I could definitely continue the series through the 1:10 (a couple of weeks ago I did 8x100 on 1:10, holding 1:04-3), and I think I'd have a shot at the 1:05. No idea about my likely tri times, as I haven't done one in years. I'm only chipping in because I'm curious where other people think this'd put me after the swim.
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Re: Can you make this set? [MI_Mumps] [ In reply to ]
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SCY yes it's doable for me. Last 3 long course races went 27:34 at Eagleman, 56:50 at Im Lake Placid, and 29:44 at 70.3 AC (before crashing on the bike course)
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Re: Can you make this set? [monty] [ In reply to ]
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Monty:

Right. He did 52:24, 54:59, 54:28, 52:44 in Kona from 2003 to 2007 which will now know to be long back then. His KQ times were near 50:00 with a sub 46 at CDA in 2003 which was probably on the short side. He was never a pro triathlete but definitely an elite Master's age-grouper at the turn of the century. Worked out with him again at an ASU pool for the first half of 2017. He is still fast in the water though no longer doing IM's.....
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Re: Can you make this set? [monty] [ In reply to ]
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monty wrote:
A lot of used to's and in the day we did this or that set, but as of today, I think I could make that set swimming, but it would be tough. I could pull it and add 3 more on the 1;15, but that would be super tough and a challenge set right now too..

No idea about what I can do in a legit triathlon swim, just haven't swam one in a long time...But in the used to categories, 23+ for a 1/2, and 50 flat at Kona(old long Kona swim course) was my best. Wetsuit swim for an ironman would have been a couple/few minutes faster I suppose. I did do a 26 for oceanside 70.3 when I was 50, accurate and very competitive, but I would have been about 5 seconds a 100 faster swimming that set back then too...

So, how long was the 'old' swim?


Brandon Marsh - Website | @BrandonMarshTX | Cervelo | RokaWetsuits | 1stEndurance | ATC Bikeshop |
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Re: Can you make this set? [-JBMarshTX] [ In reply to ]
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-JBMarshTX wrote:
monty wrote:
A lot of used to's and in the day we did this or that set, but as of today, I think I could make that set swimming, but it would be tough. I could pull it and add 3 more on the 1;15, but that would be super tough and a challenge set right now too..

No idea about what I can do in a legit triathlon swim, just haven't swam one in a long time...But in the used to categories, 23+ for a 1/2, and 50 flat at Kona(old long Kona swim course) was my best. Wetsuit swim for an ironman would have been a couple/few minutes faster I suppose. I did do a 26 for oceanside 70.3 when I was 50, accurate and very competitive, but I would have been about 5 seconds a 100 faster swimming that set back then too...


So, how long was the 'old' swim?

However long it was, I'm sure the old timers will tell us it was up hill both ways....and most years done in a blinding snow storm.

"They're made of latex, not nitroglycerin"
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Re: Can you make this set? [MI_Mumps] [ In reply to ]
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Yeah, I think I could, or at least give it a really good shot. Couldn't do it today, as I haven't swim since my last tri in the middle of July. But I'll get back in the water next month, and could probably give it a pretty good crack after a few weeks of swimming.

------------------------------------------------------------
Any run that doesn't include pooping in someone's front yard is a win.
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Re: Can you make this set? [gary p] [ In reply to ]
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gary p wrote:
However long it was, I'm sure the old timers will tell us it was up hill both ways....and most years done in a blinding snow storm.

1 - I am an old timer, but only did Kona 2x.

2 - Being an old timer, the first time I did kona the pros only had a 15m or so head start. I think that I swam 53:xx in 2002, and it was wavy and choppy that year. I think that it actually rained early in the bike or run.

3 - Being an old timer and ex-pro, I had my 50:ish minutes of fame in 2013 and won the swim on the old course.

So, whether it was uphill both ways or with a head current both ways, I remember them changing it in what, 2017? I just don't know how much shorter it is now than it was before the change.


Brandon Marsh - Website | @BrandonMarshTX | Cervelo | RokaWetsuits | 1stEndurance | ATC Bikeshop |
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Re: Can you make this set? [-JBMarshTX] [ In reply to ]
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-JBMarshTX wrote:
gary p wrote:
However long it was, I'm sure the old timers will tell us it was up hill both ways....and most years done in a blinding snow storm.

1 - I am an old timer, but only did Kona 2x.

2 - Being an old timer, the first time I did kona the pros only had a 15m or so head start. I think that I swam 53:xx in 2002, and it was wavy and choppy that year. I think that it actually rained early in the bike or run.

3 - Being an old timer and ex-pro, I had my 50:ish minutes of fame in 2013 and won the swim on the old course.

So, whether it was uphill both ways or with a head current both ways, I remember them changing it in what, 2017? I just don't know how much shorter it is now than it was before the change.

Brandon, you’ve probably answered this elsewhere, but what would be an example pool test set from 2013 that you think indicates the fitness you had then?
It’s a fascinating data point for us swimming nerds.
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Re: Can you make this set? [-JBMarshTX] [ In reply to ]
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So, how long was the 'old' swim? //

If you knew how long it is now, then you could know pretty exact. Someone had some great overhead google earth photos of the old buoys, and where they set the new ones. It was moved in about 110meters, so around 220meters total shorter than now. It looks to me that the times swam now does indicate that the course is pretty spot on now, so add 220 to 2.4, and that roughly is what we used to swim..

But it is +/- I would say some 50 meters or so, because of the start moving our further and further, and the finish going longer by not finishing on the King Kam side of the pier. I made a point to really look at this years start, and it has creeped all the way to the end of the pier. I remember having to swim for quite a bit before clearing that obstacle, so that probably washed the longer finish at dig me beach on the older swim..


On a good swim day the entire lead pro pack is going to break the record some day, and they should with that much difference from when Lars swam it..


I remember that year you pipped the boys, I believe it must have been that side/head current that held thing tougher at the very front??
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Re: Can you make this set? [Trexlera] [ In reply to ]
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Trexlera wrote:
Brandon, you’ve probably answered this elsewhere, but what would be an example pool test set from 2013 that you think indicates the fitness you had then?
It’s a fascinating data point for us swimming nerds.

I don't know that I have answered. I am also 'Grumpy Marsh' and 4 years retired. I don't really remember too much of the specifics, and this may come off a bit vague...and long.

I was always a decent swimmer, but was never fully dedicated to swimming when growing up. I swam a 456 500scy free and something like a 203 200im and 200ish? 200 fly. I say I wasn't particularly fast. I never made the state meet.

For tris, I really wasn't fully dedicated until 2010 when Amy and I decided to make a real go of it. We trained with Brett and his squad in Thailand and Swiss. I was a front pack swimmer then. I posted one of his sets earlier in the thread. Pretty basic. We swam probably 20k a week with Brett and I used a lot of paddles only. 10x400 was a recovery day after a hard run. All easy. But, my swim (in general I think that I was a slower athlete those 2 years) really wasn't any faster, I was just a bit smarter in open water than previous. I think that I won the swim at Cozumel in 2011, but even though I was racing with a TeamTBB kit, I'd made the decision to switch coaches.

I think after IM Cozumel in 2011, I won every IM swim that I entered and several 70.3s. I don't remember the specifics. With Paulo we swam a lot, probably 20-25k a week. Amy and I also went to altitude in Flagstaff which really helped me, but her not so much. With Paulo we swam also with Eric Lagerstrom, Joe Maloy, and Kevin Ryan. All very good swimmers and one that was an Olympian. This was when we were with his squad.

So, it wasn't a single set. It was a lot of swimming. What I remember is that Paulo had us do 'just enough' fast work. He and I talked about it. It was when USRPT was getting more popular. We swam some quality 100s with longer rest, say on a 2 minute send off. These were best average or AFAP. But really, it was a lot of swimming. And, I feel like we also had a lot of easier swimming in there.

I posted earlier that a single set can be very misleading. Amy was always right there in a set of 50s or 100s on a tight interval. Whether it was the difference in stroke or confidence, my open water swimming was way better.

Most age groupers don't swim enough or focused enough. There needs to be an effort to have multiple speeds and really pay attention to what they do. That's why on the watch thread I posted that a garmin in the swim takes away from the swim. I'm grumpy like that. There's a big difference in 40x100x120 scm and 10x400x520 scm I think even though they take the same amount of time. I only coach about 8 or so athletes now, and it's remote. I hate that I say they swim 'good enough', but the reality is that most triathletes need to be able to make it through 1,500 or 1,900 or 3,800 meters without being gassed or falling apart. That's where the 40x100 sets really help. The bike and then run is where the real time gets made up.

That's not a real answer, but the standards are 1:10 scy and 1:20 lcm. I don't think that those change. You also need 200 speed to get out and hang on when it's needed. I took the lead in Kona after about 1k, because Pete Jacobs and Eneko Llanos didn't seem to be swimming that fast. I was 3rd and tried to pass. It wasn't overly hard. And, I pressed when I got inside the pier because I figured that Clayton was back there and was going to come around. It helped that Andy Potts didn't swim that year!!


Brandon Marsh - Website | @BrandonMarshTX | Cervelo | RokaWetsuits | 1stEndurance | ATC Bikeshop |
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Re: Can you make this set? [monty] [ In reply to ]
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monty wrote:
I remember that year you pipped the boys, I believe it must have been that side/head current that held thing tougher at the very front??

I guess? I don't remember, just posted that I was 3rd in line until about 1k. I do remember some BS comments by a coach with the same initials about that year being a mediocre or slow swim or some other disparaging remark about the fact that the front pack had 25ish of us strung out. It helped that Andy didn't swim and for some reason Clayton didn't smash it like I figured he would.

Shit, now I'm happy to do 3k 2x a week and try to go easy all the time. I don't particularly enjoy the 1:15 per 100 or :50 per 75 send off days. I'd arm wrestle to be the caboose in the lane...


Brandon Marsh - Website | @BrandonMarshTX | Cervelo | RokaWetsuits | 1stEndurance | ATC Bikeshop |
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Re: Can you make this set? [-JBMarshTX] [ In reply to ]
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Shit, now I'm happy to do 3k 2x a week and try to go easy all the time. I don't particularly enjoy the 1:15 per 100 or :50 per 75 send off days. I'd arm wrestle to be the caboose in the lane...


Hey, at least you don't have to swim alone, that is the last refuge of an old swimmer. I dont have to get to the back of the lane to go easy, no one is looking!! Except for of course the fishes on their thread, it helps keep it honest every time I get in the water..But I dont mind really, swimming is the one thing I seem to be able to do without getting injured, or even feeling little nigglies. You aren't there yet, but when you hit social security age, you will appreciate your lane and mates a little more than now..
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Re: Can you make this set? [-JBMarshTX] [ In reply to ]
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This is super helpful and interesting.
I’m not really a triathlete anymore but I compete in open water and want to get better at this, and am pretty obsessed with the discipline. You refer to 100s on 1:10scy; could you have done 40 of those pretty comfortably?
(I swim with a masters team and try to put together longer swims alone to supplement, so I’m looking for more open water/endurance specific information).
Thanks again for responding.
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Re: Can you make this set? [MI_Mumps] [ In reply to ]
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MI_Mumps wrote:
I have an aspirational swim set. Aspirational in the sense that I aspire to complete it and I worry about aspirating during the set...

3x100 scy on 1:40, then 1:30, then 1:25, then 1:20. All consecutive, no extra rest.

Made most of the 1:25s today, no way on the 1:20s. I did a 1:17, 1:18 and 1:23 later on, but leaving on the 2:20!

Can you do that whole set? If so, what Olympic/ 70.3 times are you doing?

See what happens when you start a good thread?

I'd likely have to grab the buoy at the 1:25s and add paddles for the 1:20s...and I'm not 100% sure I'd make it. Yesterday's swim workout was somewhat similar but a much easier version. 6x 1:40, 5x 1:35, 4x 132.5, 3x 1:30, 2x 1:27.5 and 1x 1:25, but with an extra R30-60 to the top at every drop. No problem with that one so maybe I'll give your set a go today if there's not something else already planned.
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Re: Can you make this set? [Trexlera] [ In reply to ]
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For open water I think that there are a few of key items that help.
- being able to change speeds and recover
- nailing a breathing sighting pattern that works
- having a couple of different free strokes depending on the conditions and whether or not you are in a pack

40x100x1:10 scy, yeah probably. But the FOP sets thrown out are usually 10x100, which I think is too few. And, I think that the ITU standards have probably changed since those guys are doing the super sprints now. And, IM may change since ITU guys have moved up.


Brandon Marsh - Website | @BrandonMarshTX | Cervelo | RokaWetsuits | 1stEndurance | ATC Bikeshop |
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Re: Can you make this set? [gregn] [ In reply to ]
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I know - very pleased with this thread!

Aaron Bales
Lansing Triathlon Team
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Re: Can you make this set? [monty] [ In reply to ]
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monty wrote:
A lot of used to's and in the day we did this or that set,

Hey, if we all can't wax poetic about days gone by, then what's the point of all this? How does the saying go? "The older I get, the better I was."

Besides, you're the king of "back in the day" around here. And we love ya for it...

Swimming Workout of the Day: http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...ost=5784860#5784860;
Favourite Swim Sets: http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...m.cgi?;post=5004659;
Unattainable goals for 2019/2020 season. https://forum.slowtwitch.com/...ost=6944848#p6944848
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Re: Can you make this set? [MI_Mumps] [ In reply to ]
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Could make a few rounds :)

Did 10x100 SCM @ 1:30 holding 1:08as a part of a longer sequence on Tuesday... with those pace times could probably do it until I got bored or ran out of time...

___________________________________________
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cerebral_palsy
Canadian Record Holder 35-39M & 40-44M - 200 m Butterfly (LCM)
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Re: Can you make this set? [MI_Mumps] [ In reply to ]
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I could... the 1:20 would be my breaking point though where I'd have to swim fast to get a few seconds break... probably coming in at 1:16-17sh. I'd probably be swimming 1:20sh and the top part would be easy, no way I could extend to 1:15.

That said my open water stunk last year. I do mostly Olympic races and I didn't swim anything under 24 I think. Never been faster in the pool but open water is slipping... my best is 22sh.
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Re: Can you make this set? [MI_Mumps] [ In reply to ]
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Great thread!
Some awesome responses and shared stories.
Right now SCY, Im sure I could do 3 on 140,130, 125, 120, 115, 110 and 105.
LCM (which we get to swim occasionally) I could make 3 on 140, 130, 125, 120, and 115. The 110 would be a massive task but i might get one or two in...(if im on a good day)

Ive spent the past 16 months swimming very consistently between 12 and 20k per week. Some with some fast and super fast kids. But mostly just pushing myself at each swim to go as fast as possible.

As far as Ironman swims, my last IM was roth and I was 51min but honestly didnt train the swim really at all over the past 12-14 years. I just got by. Hence the refocus this past year.
My 2 fastest ironman swims were at lake placid 47.04 and 47.30 (or similar) 3rd or 4th out each time. Kona in 1999 made up the difference between the two groups and came out of the water with cam brown (someone got a good pic of that). I think that was 49min range that year. And it was the king kam side of pier.
Have not done a half or oly but seem to find myself with measured efforts in the xterras I have done. Usually posting a top swim time of the day.

again. great thread

daved

http://www.theundergroundcoach.com
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Re: Can you make this set? [MI_Mumps] [ In reply to ]
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Nope. For me that's just 300 on 5:00 and done.
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Re: Can you make this set? [GreatScott] [ In reply to ]
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4x400m @ 5:00
4x200m @ 2:30
4x100m @ 1:15


Frodo's test set during his ITU days...


Pretty challenging :)

___________________________________________
http://en.wikipedia.org/...eoesophageal_fistula
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cerebral_palsy
Canadian Record Holder 35-39M & 40-44M - 200 m Butterfly (LCM)
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Re: Can you make this set? [realAB] [ In reply to ]
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I assume those are leave times, all consecutive?

Aaron Bales
Lansing Triathlon Team
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Re: Can you make this set? [MI_Mumps] [ In reply to ]
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That's how he described it, when I have done it that's how I usually would do it, if there is any extra rest maybe 60' after the 400s to take some water in.

___________________________________________
http://en.wikipedia.org/...eoesophageal_fistula
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cerebral_palsy
Canadian Record Holder 35-39M & 40-44M - 200 m Butterfly (LCM)
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Re: Can you make this set? [realAB] [ In reply to ]
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Re: Can you make this set? [Pun_Times] [ In reply to ]
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Gave it a shot this morning. Started feeling it in the 1:25’s then barely hit the wall in time on the 1st 1:20. Didn’t bother trying the second one as there was no way I’d be able make it

Matt
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Re: Can you make this set? [ripple] [ In reply to ]
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I did not get to swim yesterday and was quite bummed. Tomorrow's is a practice, not my call - so it will wait til next week.

Here's an interesting variation that would be easier to make:
1x100 on 1:40,35,30,25,20,15 .. so 6 total
.. and repeat 3x for 18 total

Since you get to do a 1:40 again on #7 and #13 it's like a reset.

But then it's not a test to failure.

Agree with others here - great thread glad you posted it.
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Re: Can you make this set? [ripple] [ In reply to ]
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Got back to it today and I consider it a fail but..

10x100 warm-up on :15R odd-drill/swim, even-buoy (typical WU for me)

12x50 on :55 - 25 choice/25 free

Then the modified attempt at this set
3x100 on 1:40
3x100 on 1:35
3x100 on 1:30
3x100 on 1:25
3x100 on 1:20

I was holding ~1:12-1:15 all the way but had no extra gear today, and on #15 I came in at 1:15, and having the mental fortitude of a petulant 12yo that just missed a district cut, I quit rather than try to ratchet it up from there and attempting 1:15 interval. Very poor considering I had done a 6:16 in a 500 just a week ago as part of a masters practice. Wtf.

So I did 10x50 on 1:00 to finish up.. odd-fast (whatever "fast" means anymore) even-recovery. 31/30/30/30/29 on the odds. So holding 1:15s should not have been the task it was.

I will avenge this, maybe in a month. That's a great test set but not something I'm looking to do weekly.
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Re: Can you make this set? [ripple] [ In reply to ]
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I must have missed where you're supposed to swim these all the same speed? That's not they way I've been coached to do these types of sets. You should start out slower, you have the longer interval for a reason. And then you'd probably be able to squeeze out the 3 on 1:15 as well.

Strava I Instagram I Team Every Man Jack I PM me for 25% off discount code at everymanjack.com
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Re: Can you make this set? [ripple] [ In reply to ]
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ripple wrote:
Got back to it today and I consider it a fail but..

10x100 warm-up on :15R odd-drill/swim, even-buoy (typical WU for me)

12x50 on :55 - 25 choice/25 free

Then the modified attempt at this set
3x100 on 1:40
3x100 on 1:35
3x100 on 1:30
3x100 on 1:25
3x100 on 1:20

I was holding ~1:12-1:15 all the way but had no extra gear today, and on #15 I came in at 1:15, and having the mental fortitude of a petulant 12yo that just missed a district cut, I quit rather than try to ratchet it up from there and attempting 1:15 interval. Very poor considering I had done a 6:16 in a 500 just a week ago as part of a masters practice. Wtf.

So I did 10x50 on 1:00 to finish up.. odd-fast (whatever "fast" means anymore) even-recovery. 31/30/30/30/29 on the odds. So holding 1:15s should not have been the task it was.

I will avenge this, maybe in a month. That's a great test set but not something I'm looking to do weekly.

yeah, you're doing it wrong. Typically, when I did this type of set I'd start out ridiculously easy. The first 6 might be 1:30's or so, then increase pace just fast enough to make the interval.

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Re: Can you make this set? [JasoninHalifax] [ In reply to ]
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JasoninHalifax wrote:
ripple wrote:
Got back to it today and I consider it a fail but..

10x100 warm-up on :15R odd-drill/swim, even-buoy (typical WU for me)

12x50 on :55 - 25 choice/25 free

Then the modified attempt at this set
3x100 on 1:40
3x100 on 1:35
3x100 on 1:30
3x100 on 1:25
3x100 on 1:20

I was holding ~1:12-1:15 all the way but had no extra gear today, and on #15 I came in at 1:15, and having the mental fortitude of a petulant 12yo that just missed a district cut, I quit rather than try to ratchet it up from there and attempting 1:15 interval. Very poor considering I had done a 6:16 in a 500 just a week ago as part of a masters practice. Wtf.

So I did 10x50 on 1:00 to finish up.. odd-fast (whatever "fast" means anymore) even-recovery. 31/30/30/30/29 on the odds. So holding 1:15s should not have been the task it was.

I will avenge this, maybe in a month. That's a great test set but not something I'm looking to do weekly.


yeah, you're doing it wrong. Typically, when I did this type of set I'd start out ridiculously easy. The first 6 might be 1:30's or so, then increase pace just fast enough to make the interval.
Ha! You're right, and I thought about doing that, like just focus on form and go 1:20/1:25 for the first 6 or so. But honestly in the water I turn into a mental midget (moreso than normal) and totally F'd it up.
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Re: Can you make this set? [JasoninHalifax] [ In reply to ]
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yeah, you're doing it wrong. Typically, when I did this type of set I'd start out ridiculously easy. The first 6 might be 1:30's or so, then increase pace just fast enough to make the interval. //


I have to agree with the others, this set is meant to be just barley made all the way through, and failure should be because of the interval, not your pace...

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Re: Can you make this set? [ripple] [ In reply to ]
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Yeah ... the idea is to go easy on the front end.

You could reverse it like Arizona does in this video ...

Harder pace times just making it and more speed / rest at the end.

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Re: Can you make this set? [realAB] [ In reply to ]
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Thanks guys.. yeah I don't know what I was thinking. By the time I realized I blew it and it was going to get ugly I just checked out mentally too. The nice thing is.. there are always other days.
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Re: Can you make this set? [ripple] [ In reply to ]
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Re: Can you make this set? [MI_Mumps] [ In reply to ]
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Yes.

If we’re not counting swim courses that were clearly shorter than advertised or downstream:

Olympic swim - 16:33
70.3 swim - 24:26
IM swim - 50:58

I swim fast because I'm afraid of sharks.
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Re: Can you make this set? [MI_Mumps] [ In reply to ]
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MI_Mumps wrote:
I have an aspirational swim set. Aspirational in the sense that I aspire to complete it and I worry about aspirating during the set...

3x100 scy on 1:40, then 1:30, then 1:25, then 1:20. All consecutive, no extra rest.

Made most of the 1:25s today, no way on the 1:20s. I did a 1:17, 1:18 and 1:23 later on, but leaving on the 2:20!

Can you do that whole set? If so, what Olympic/ 70.3 times are you doing?

Finally got around to having a go at your set and the answer is no, I can't, not today anyway.

Just made the 2nd 100 of the 1:25 round, grabbed the buoy and stuffed it simultaneous with the push for an ugly 1-arm streamline. Made that 3rd one but lost a couple seconds getting thumbs into the finis agility paddles and just could not make it up over the course of that round, finishing 2 seconds off the mark. Could have done a straight 300 through the 1:20 round but wanted to stick with the set as written and went with the fastest open turns I could manage with a hand on the wall and a clock check.

On a good day I'm thinking maybe swim through the first on the 1:20 round but that would finish me. Looks like I'm stuck right about where you are with this set.
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Re: Can you make this set? [sch340] [ In reply to ]
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sch340 wrote:
In high school and college I made 100x100 on 1:05 for 3 consecutive years (pre-holidays torture set). Averaged about 1:01 on each 100, then rinse and repeat. It was more boring than a 3 hour trainer ride.
Now (15 years later) I could probably do your set down to 1:05 for 3 of them (depends on the day)
I'm generally swimming 25:xx and 53:xx in HIM and IM races

And you didn't eat or drink at all during the whole 1 hr and 48 min did you??? I haven't done the 100 x 100 in that form but I have swum the USMS 10K in the pool three times and never stopped at all for "refueling", which I think is a bit over-rated. Sure in an IM you need it but only a small amount of extra fuel is needed for a half and none for an Oly dist. :)


"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."
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Re: Can you make this set? [MI_Mumps] [ In reply to ]
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Read this thread a while back and thought it was a fun idea so I gave it a go; a bit modified mind you ...

3 x 100 @ 1:45
3 x 100 @ 1:40
3 x 100 @ 1:35
3 x 100 @ 1:30
3 x 100 @ 1:25
3 x 100 @ 1:20
3 x 100 @ 1:15
3 x 100 @ 1:10
3 x 100 @ 1:05
1 x 100 @ 1:00 ... missed the 2nd 100 on 1:00

Was a great challenge set and will probably repeat it in the future. As a reference I have a swimming background (college) and my 70.3 swim PR is 24:37 (wetsuit) and 140.6 swim PR is 50:38 (wetsuit).

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Re: Can you make this set? [ericmulk] [ In reply to ]
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2 hours is generally considered the threshold at which your performance starts to degrade because your body exhausts your onboard reserves. So if you wanted to swim for 1:45 without eating and then do a second workout later that day, the second workout is likely going to be terrible, because your body can't replenish it's glycogen stores fast enough. Also, sure, you don't really need to fuel for an olympic tri or a half ironman, but you'll go faster if you do.

*Says a registered dietitian i worked with who is also a pro triathlete.
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Re: Can you make this set? [imswimmer328] [ In reply to ]
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imswimmer328 wrote:
2 hours is generally considered the threshold at which your performance starts to degrade because your body exhausts your onboard reserves. So if you wanted to swim for 1:45 without eating and then do a second workout later that day, the second workout is likely going to be terrible, because your body can't replenish it's glycogen stores fast enough. Also, sure, you don't really need to fuel for an olympic tri or a half ironman, but you'll go faster if you do.

*Says a registered dietitian i worked with who is also a pro triathlete.

Well, all i can say is that, based solely on my own experience, i have done literally 1000s of SBR workouts that exceeded 2 hrs and never bothered to eat anything. Personally i would say if you're planning to go over 3 hrs, that's when you might want to take some fuel in during the workout. Mainly though, I'm arguing against guys who say they can't do anything over one hour w/o refueling. Hell, I have one friend who says he can't swim longer than 30 min w/o taking in a gel. Give me an effing break!!! If that were true, 1000s of swimmers would have passed out back in the 90s when 25 hr/wk of swimming, plus dry-land, was still common. :)


"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."
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Re: Can you make this set? [mhoffman] [ In reply to ]
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3 x 100 @ 1:45
3 x 100 @ 1:40
3 x 100 @ 1:35
3 x 100 @ 1:30
3 x 100 @ 1:25
3 x 100 @ 1:20
3 x 100 @ 1:15
3 x 100 @ 1:10
3 x 100 @ 1:05
1 x 100 @ 1:00 ... missed the 2nd 100 on 1:00 //


Great job, that is a pro workout for sure. I dont think too many here could get through your set, even the point where you missed, a handful. Did you sandbag the first 20 or so to keep your chances to finish at a higher %? Like making early intervals by just 5 or 10 seconds, and later less than 5?? This would be a great set for all of our posters and lurkers here, see how far you can go. I'm doing more running than swimming now, but may try it as a pull set this week for a before standard...
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Re: Can you make this set? [monty] [ In reply to ]
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monty wrote:
3 x 100 @ 1:45
3 x 100 @ 1:40
3 x 100 @ 1:35
3 x 100 @ 1:30
3 x 100 @ 1:25
3 x 100 @ 1:20
3 x 100 @ 1:15
3 x 100 @ 1:10
3 x 100 @ 1:05
1 x 100 @ 1:00 ... missed the 2nd 100 on 1:00 //


Great job, that is a pro workout for sure. I dont think too many here could get through your set, even the point where you missed, a handful. Did you sandbag the first 20 or so to keep your chances to finish at a higher %? Like making early intervals by just 5 or 10 seconds, and later less than 5?? This would be a great set for all of our posters and lurkers here, see how far you can go. I'm doing more running than swimming now, but may try it as a pull set this week for a before standard...

Yeah, I can think of only a couple of guys on here who could do that now. A lot more who could do it "back in the day", but being a few or 25 years removed from full-time college swimming, that's tough...

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Re: Can you make this set? [monty] [ In reply to ]
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Thanks. It was a lot of fun. Like a bunch of people have already mentioned this set boils down to balancing effort and rest; and being able to carry fatigue at the end. I cruised the 1:45-1:30 repeats, keeping it very long and relaxed (holding ~1:15-1:20). Once I got into the 1:25-1:20 repeats I ramped up the effort to holding about 1:08 pace, both to give myself a consistent 10+ seconds rest but also get the arm turnover up and get the "engine" ready for the harder effort still to come. This trend held true for the 1:15-1:10 repeats as well; brought it down to about 1:03 pace. Then the 1:05s were all around 1:00.

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Re: Can you make this set? [MI_Mumps] [ In reply to ]
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fun thread. I'm not going to be able to match mhoffman's effort, but I am sure I can get down to a 1:10 set for yards and make at least the first one at the 1:05 interval. Any faster and I might not have time to stop and start my watch. I'd probably skip the 1:40 and go straight to 1:30. I haven't done a set quite like this in a long time, usually I'll reverse it and start with something like 5x100 on 1:15 (scy), adding 5s to the interval every round, while still expecting to get faster.

I don't have a recent olympic or 70.3 swim to cite for you though; the last one I did in 2014 was a wetsuit swim in 22:48. Earlier this year I did a 2.2k open water race in 25:34, but there is a slight current (in 2016, the same race had a strong current, and I did it in 22:35). So that's about 300m longer than a 70.3 swim leg, but at much harder effort, and also just in a jammer, not a trisuit or swim skin or wetsuit.

-----
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Re: Can you make this set? [Optimal_Adrian] [ In reply to ]
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Optimal_Adrian wrote:
fun thread. I'm not going to be able to match mhoffman's effort, but I am sure I can get down to a 1:10 set for yards and make at least the first one at the 1:05 interval. Any faster and I might not have time to stop and start my watch. I'd probably skip the 1:40 and go straight to 1:30. I haven't done a set quite like this in a long time, usually I'll reverse it and start with something like 5x100 on 1:15 (scy), adding 5s to the interval every round, while still expecting to get faster.

I don't have a recent olympic or 70.3 swim to cite for you though; the last one I did in 2014 was a wetsuit swim in 22:48. Earlier this year I did a 2.2k open water race in 25:34, but there is a slight current (in 2016, the same race had a strong current, and I did it in 22:35). So that's about 300m longer than a 70.3 swim leg, but at much harder effort, and also just in a jammer, not a trisuit or swim skin or wetsuit.

I sense a winter challenge coming on!

Most improved between December and say March?

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Re: Can you make this set? [JasoninHalifax] [ In reply to ]
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Yeah it could be a good challenge/progress tracking set. I'll try to test myself in the next couple of weeks and put it in the fish thread. Need to be mentally prepared as it's going to *hurt*

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Re: Can you make this set? [Optimal_Adrian] [ In reply to ]
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Optimal_Adrian wrote:
Yeah it could be a good challenge/progress tracking set. I'll try to test myself in the next couple of weeks and put it in the fish thread. Need to be mentally prepared as it's going to *hurt*

I haven't been in the water in a couple of months. If I do it now, I'd probably wind up at the bottom of the pool. So, in other words, it sounds like a great idea. I'll see if I can get there this week. I've arranged with the powers that be to start back in the water in early Jan, but if I can get in a little bit in December that would be ideal.

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Re: Can you make this set? [MI_Mumps] [ In reply to ]
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Nope, still can't make the set. Tried again today and swam thru the 1:25 round coming in at 22 for the last one (incremental gain over last try), but mental fortitude just was not there today and I gave in to the tingling arms/legs and didn't even launch an effort at the 1:20 round. Took an extended break and then did the 1:20s as a stand-alone effort, but with buoy and paddles. Probably going to revisit your set periodically and see what happens.
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Re: Can you make this set? [MI_Mumps] [ In reply to ]
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 There’s no way I can make that set. I swim around 32 minutes for half, 1:05 full
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Re: Can you make this set? [DBF] [ In reply to ]
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Yep, we’re about the same spot I’d guess.

Aaron Bales
Lansing Triathlon Team
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Re: Can you make this set? [mhoffman] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
mhoffman wrote:
Read this thread a while back and thought it was a fun idea so I gave it a go; a bit modified mind you ...

3 x 100 @ 1:45
3 x 100 @ 1:40
3 x 100 @ 1:35
3 x 100 @ 1:30
3 x 100 @ 1:25
3 x 100 @ 1:20
3 x 100 @ 1:15
3 x 100 @ 1:10
3 x 100 @ 1:05
1 x 100 @ 1:00 ... missed the 2nd 100 on 1:00

Was a great challenge set and will probably repeat it in the future. As a reference I have a swimming background (college) and my 70.3 swim PR is 24:37 (wetsuit) and 140.6 swim PR is 50:38 (wetsuit).

Dang...they walk among us! That’s wild stuff. Nice work!

Aaron Bales
Lansing Triathlon Team
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Re: Can you make this set? [MI_Mumps] [ In reply to ]
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SCY that would be a relatively easy set for me to make, SCM a bit harder but likely do-able and LCM I think I'd be pushed though I would back myself!

Best olympic tri time 19:42 at the first AG WTS leeds race (had to swim through multiple waves that started ahead of me otherwise would have been a bit faster)

Best 70.3 time 24:08 (on a 2000m swim course - published and according to GPS)

For reference my best standalone 1500m times are 17:04:61 (LCM), 17:12:51 (SCM), though these were quite some time ago!!

Practise doesn't make perfect, practice makes permanent. Only perfect practice makes perfect!
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Re: Can you make this set? [MI_Mumps] [ In reply to ]
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Could do it with fins LCM lol, have no idea how it compares to SCY.
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Re: Can you make this set? [JasoninHalifax] [ In reply to ]
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Absolutely! I am all for a December to March Challenge.

I am swimming the USMS New England SCY Championships in March with the goal of breaking 5:00 in the 500 so that will be great timing. I will definitely be giving this set a few more goes between now and then and will post updates periodically.

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Last edited by: mhoffman: Dec 21, 18 6:54
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Re: Can you make this set? [mhoffman] [ In reply to ]
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mhoffman wrote:
Absolutely! I am all for a December to March Challenge.

I am swimming the USMS New England SCY Championships in March with the goal of breaking 5:00 in the 500 so that will be great timing. I will definitely be giving this set a few more goes between now and then and will post updates periodically.

Sub 5 is pretty quick, I'm rooting for you to do it.

How old are you?

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Re: Can you make this set? [JasoninHalifax] [ In reply to ]
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It is indeed haha. PR is 5:06 from back in college where I was predominantly a sprinter. I am 31, so it has been a while.

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Re: Can you make this set? [mhoffman] [ In reply to ]
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mhoffman wrote:
It is indeed haha. PR is 5:06 from back in college where I was predominantly a sprinter. I am 31, so it has been a while.
You're still a young pup. No problem, you got this.

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Re: Can you make this set? [MI_Mumps] [ In reply to ]
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I've been wanting to do this one for a while and when I heard our masters coach was going out of town I volunteered to create a workout for last nights swim. I live in Kansas with a bunch of K-State and KU alumni and I'm the lone Fresno State Bulldog so I decided to have some fun with it. I did the hard/Bulldog set and barely made those 1:25's (SCY).


Last edited by: TrierinKC: Dec 21, 18 7:34
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Re: Can you make this set? [mhoffman] [ In reply to ]
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Well just going off this first crack at this set you did, you were about 5;15 for the last 5, and that is just the interval times added up. Assume you made all the 1;05's by maybe 3 seconds or so??

So I would say that is a great goal for you in March, it is out there far enough that I would give you a 20/80% chance of making/not making it..

Likely you will break your PR though, then you could come swim Masters Nationals with all of us in Mesa AZ at the end of April. That just might be the extra work/rest and competition that swims that speed you will need to crack it...

And definitely keep us updated, for a guy of your old speed trying this in your 30's, it would be remarkable. I know guys that swam 30 seconds faster that would struggle with that goal...
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Re: Can you make this set? [monty] [ In reply to ]
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monty wrote:
Well just going off this first crack at this set you did, you were about 5;15 for the last 5, and that is just the interval times added up. Assume you made all the 1;05's by maybe 3 seconds or so??

So I would say that is a great goal for you in March, it is out there far enough that I would give you a 20/80% chance of making/not making it..

Likely you will break your PR though, then you could come swim Masters Nationals with all of us in Mesa AZ at the end of April. That just might be the extra work/rest and competition that swims that speed you will need to crack it...

And definitely keep us updated, for a guy of your old speed trying this in your 30's, it would be remarkable. I know guys that swam 30 seconds faster that would struggle with that goal...

I'll give him better odds than that. if he was a 5:06 in college as a sprinter, that means that he'd be in reality a 4:55 ish guy back then, as I doubt he ever swam the race shaved / tapered. As a point of reference, I was (converted to SCY) a 4:50 guy in college (swam it shaved and tapered just once though), and as a 45 y/o I went 5:10. Pretty sure that if I had been doing masters meets as a 31 year old pup I would have been easily sub-5. I'd put mhoffman around the same.

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Re: Can you make this set? [MI_Mumps] [ In reply to ]
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I could make that set in metres (we did something similar in practice a week or two ago, with the final round on 1:10, which stung a little); for SCY I could probably get down to 1:00, but I wouldn't be able to fake being happy about it. I haven't done a lot of 70.3's lately, but for IM I'm 52 - 53m.

For perspective, my son is a swimmer, and at a race I did recently they cut the swim down to 1 loop instead of two. He did the math out loud, and in complete seriousness asked: "If you swam, what, 1,900m less than normal, then your time was light by about 22 minutes?" Me: "Yeah, T., that sounds right. Let's just go with that number, shall we?"
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Re: Can you make this set? [mhoffman] [ In reply to ]
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Ok hoffman, had a crack today, but pool was 86, so left some meat on the bone so to speak. After warm up did it as a pull set after my morning run:


18x100pull- 3@1;40/3@1;35/3@1;30/3@1;25/3@1;20/3@1;15-- first 12 1;23 to 1;18, last 6(1;15/15/14/12/12/13) failed on #19, just too hot to continue.

So that is my baseline for starting, I will have to hit a cool pool with lane lines and gutters to have any shot at those 1;10's..
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Re: Can you make this set? [monty] [ In reply to ]
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monty wrote:
Ok hoffman, had a crack today, but pool was 86, so left some meat on the bone so to speak. After warm up did it as a pull set after my morning run:


18x100pull- 3@1;40/3@1;35/3@1;30/3@1;25/3@1;20/3@1;15-- first 12 1;23 to 1;18, last 6(1;15/15/14/12/12/13) failed on #19, just too hot to continue.

So that is my baseline for starting, I will have to hit a cool pool with lane lines and gutters to have any shot at those 1;10's..

The pool I swim in is regularly 84F. I have been doing a lot of IM lately & the heat is just miserable. Did you at least have a snowdrift to jump into when you got done?
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Re: Can you make this set? [turningscrews] [ In reply to ]
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Did you at least have a snowdrift to jump into when you got done? //


Ha, that's a good one. 70+ degrees outside, sunny with no wind. I wish I had some snow, at least for that 20 minutes after. I usually do a 20 minute hot tub, using the jets to massage my legs, but not today!!! And usually this pool is around 83, so not sure what happened. And it is outdoors with no covers, so they have to be burning cash each night when it gets down into the 40's. Come to think of it, my HOA fees pay for it, so I think I will make a call...
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Re: Can you make this set? [monty] [ In reply to ]
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My HOA in SoCal only heats the pool from Memorial Day to Labor Day. You must live in a neighborhood of multi million dollar homes
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Re: Can you make this set? [monty] [ In reply to ]
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monty - great work, especially given the hot pool. Great baseline. Sorry for the late reply; holidays had me unplugged for a couple of weeks.

For those looking to jump in the January swim challenge fun, yesterday was the opening day of the 2019 U.S. Masters Swimming 1hr ePostal National Championships. Anyone planning on giving it a go?

https://www.usms.org/events/national-championships/epostal-national-championships/2019-epostal-national-championships

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Re: Can you make this set? [BrentwoodTriGuy] [ In reply to ]
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BrentwoodTriGuy wrote:
This would be incredibly easy. I've done 4200scy broken but essentially leaving on 1:20/100 for the entire thing.

Also, the way you word things is odd to me... if I have a set leaving on 1:20, I still rest. It might only be 10 seconds but there is rest at the wall.

I never push the pace in a 70.3, so roughly 27:00 and 54:30 for a full.

I love triathletes. Brag much?
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Re: Can you make this set? [uptown423] [ In reply to ]
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uptown423 wrote:

I love triathletes. Brag much?

Actually no, I rarely brag. I actually hate talking about myself... I reserve all my front doors for Slowtwitch.
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Re: Can you make this set? [BrentwoodTriGuy] [ In reply to ]
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Of course that set is too easy for you, and because of this, I Nominate Brentwood for Hoffman's set. If you missed it, start at 3 on the 1;40 and reduce interval until failure. He made it to one under the minute barrier, so you have that out there as the high water mark. I failed on the first one on the 1;10, but will get at least one or two next time if the pool is cooler..

No back doors, just straight on front door bragging on that set...(-;
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Re: Can you make this set? [monty] [ In reply to ]
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monty wrote:
Of course that set is too easy for you, and because of this, I Nominate Brentwood for Hoffman's set. If you missed it, start at 3 on the 1;40 and reduce interval until failure. He made it to one under the minute barrier, so you have that out there as the high water mark. I failed on the first one on the 1;10, but will get at least one or two next time if the pool is cooler..

No back doors, just straight on front door bragging on that set...(-;

I'll make something on 1:05 when I'm fit. I promise I'll never get under :60. That's badass!
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Re: Can you make this set? [mhoffman] [ In reply to ]
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I might do it again. I was 1st M40-44 in 2017. I'm at a disadvantage here in Canada because I have to swim it SCM and convert to yards (I miss out on 20 extra turns). I did 5000m in 59:52 flipped and only got 5m in the last 8 seconds due to puking into the gutter.

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http://en.wikipedia.org/...eoesophageal_fistula
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cerebral_palsy
Canadian Record Holder 35-39M & 40-44M - 200 m Butterfly (LCM)
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Re: Can you make this set? [uptown423] [ In reply to ]
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https://www.instagram.com/...;igshid=njgxchrrjdbd

40x100m @1:30

Last 20 held mile pace and dropped 1:03 on #40

___________________________________________
http://en.wikipedia.org/...eoesophageal_fistula
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cerebral_palsy
Canadian Record Holder 35-39M & 40-44M - 200 m Butterfly (LCM)
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Re: Can you make this set? [mhoffman] [ In reply to ]
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SCM I could get down to 1:10, maybe 1/2 on 1:05 of the objective is to make the pace times.

___________________________________________
http://en.wikipedia.org/...eoesophageal_fistula
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cerebral_palsy
Canadian Record Holder 35-39M & 40-44M - 200 m Butterfly (LCM)
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Re: Can you make this set? [realAB] [ In reply to ]
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realAB wrote:
I might do it again. I was 1st M40-44 in 2017. I'm at a disadvantage here in Canada because I have to swim it SCM and convert to yards (I miss out on 20 extra turns). I did 5000m in 59:52 flipped and only got 5m in the last 8 seconds due to puking into the gutter.

Bo - How far are you from the US border??? Maybe come down and swim the hour challenge in a scy pool in Wash state??? You could prob get 90 to 100 yds more in the shorter pool. Great effort last year though, throwing up at the end is hard core. :)


"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."
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Re: Can you make this set? [ericmulk] [ In reply to ]
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Montana is the closest and it's over 2 hours to the border and Great Falls is 5 hours...

___________________________________________
http://en.wikipedia.org/...eoesophageal_fistula
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cerebral_palsy
Canadian Record Holder 35-39M & 40-44M - 200 m Butterfly (LCM)
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Re: Can you make this set? [realAB] [ In reply to ]
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Well done! And like you said SCM definitely puts you at a disadvantage. This year will be my first attempt and I am going into it with a mixture of excitement and terror. Should be making an attempt in the next few weeks. Will post how things go once it is finished ...

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