1. Yes.
2. Yes, but it took a whole lot of extra years and tears.
3. Absolutely, I switched career paths after paying off all of my loans and went to graduate school in music. None of the jobs that I have had for the past 35+ years would have been available without the pieces of paper from college.

Yes
Yes
Yes in the aggregate

I graduated 24 years ago when I was 20. I have never worked in my degree field. Obviously there are shit days but I've worked in manufacturing, infrastructure, hospital design and construction, and healthcare and its all been very interesting.

I've spent 75% of that time since graduation working overseas, the US, Middle East and Europe.

No degree and all of that would have, at the very least, been much harder, but more likely impossible.

Since graduating, I've been back to graduate school twice. Once a decade ago, again now though this time I am a bit shocked at the content relative to what I was expecting (and not in a good way)

Edit to add. The first two schools cost me nothing. (except opportunity cost)

I'm paying this time. Unless I was in a top school, I'd not shell out a penny more than necessary because no employer is going to give two shits you went to the most expensive middle of the table school.

I assume you mean "university". In Canada we have both and the resulting credentials are very different.

Yes I went to university, got my degree. Then I went to college to get a technical diploma so I was more employable. Years later I went to grad school, got another degree.

Currently underemployed doing work unrelated to any of the above credentials. So right now they all mean jack shit. (I blame a crap local economy). However, aside from wishing I had taken a different undergrad program initially, I am happy with my educational decisions.

1. Yes
2, Yes
3. Yes

Yes
Yes
Sort of, I would have had a different major as I needed to get a masters right a way for a meaningful job

There's no ROI with regards to college!

Wait, what were the questions? Oh, yeah...

1. Yes
2. Does an Associates Degree count?
2. Yes

My path into full time photography was unconventional compared to those of us who started out at RIT. It was expected that entering freshman would put their four years in, graduate, then get an assistant's job in NYC, LA or Miami (fashion). That didn't sit well with me, because my mentor taught me that any photographer could make a darn good living without having to go those large cities (I grew up in the Philly suburbs). Early into my second year, I figured out that I might not be getting the "education" - 90% of photography is business - so I left mid-way through my third year. I spent the better part of the next decade gaining the knowledge and valuable life skills college doesn't teach, before I became a full time professional photographer. Seeing my oldest son about to enter his third year in college (UNC Charlotte School of Engineering) makes me wonder if I would be further ahead if I had completed college. I say no, because I knew since I was a little boy that I wanted to work for myself, and since early high school that I wanted to be a professional photographer. If anything, I wonder if that 3.5 year's worth of money could have been better spent.

1. Yes, many times
2. No, graduated in 2013 at the age of 47, graduated with a masters in 2018
3. I'm happy to have my degrees now. I wish I would have done it younger so I could reap even more benefits. I was lucky because when I was young there was plenty of opportunity for a hard working person, with the right connections. I started out in manufacturing and learned a skill, that moved me up the ladder somewhat quickly because I was pretty driven. My ultimate path would have been much easier had I had my degree. There were many jobs I was not given the opportunity because I lacked a degree.

Regardless what many, many people tell you, a degree is very important. If you don't have it, those same people who tell you they are not important will not give you the opportunities without one. As I've seen said here a lot, now a college degree is as important as a high school diploma once was. To get a job today, many times a masters is required.

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_____
TEAM HD
Each day is what you make of it so make it the best day possible.

1. Yes
2. Yes
3. Not really

Yes
Yes
Yes regarding schooling TBD on career choices.

Yes

Yes. Graduated with a bachelors after 4 years. I was going to transfer after 2 years to somewhere closer to home but the credits didn’t line up right and would’ve had to take an extra 1-2 semesters so I decided to stick it out at the original place. After graduating I Took 2-3 years off of school and worked before going back to school and getting a doctorate in a similar field.

Yes. I’m happy where I’m at in life. That being said, If I could go back in time I would want to go down that education path in a different manner. Or do a wildly different major or career

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Matt

Yes
Yes
Yes, regarding going to college. Ended up working in the family business, which has nothing to do with my degree. Enjoy my work but having employees can sometimes be a pain in the ass.

1. Yes
2. Yes
3. Happy enough

Yes, yes, and yes. For the last one where I went had more to do with that than what I ended up with degrees in (fine arts and history) as I've spent almost all my career in an unrelated field (software engineering).

1.) Yes
2.) Yes
3.) Yes

But be warned on #3 for everyone.
There are scientific studies which say we are biased to think the path we've chosen is better than any counterfactual.

1) Yes

2) No. In fact, I didn't graduate at all. I felt s bit lost half way through my degree. I decided to take some time off to travel. When I came home I was beyond broke (maxed out my CC for a flight home) and decided to work in construction for a year to save some money. I ended up working for a very talented carpenter who offered me an apprenticeship, and I took that route instead.

3) Yes and No. While all my friends graduated with debt and most without great employment prospects, I finished my apprenticeship with zero debt, having earned around $150k over the course of my training, and was in high demand. I started a renovation business that gives me a good living in a very expensive city. I enjoy having and honing a skill or craft. When I finish a project, I feel a huge sense of pride and accomplishment in what I've done, and I meet some very interesting clients.

On the negative side, it is incredibly hard work, and without a degree, I'm more or less stuck in this career path. I think, as I get older, this may become an issue for me.

In retrospect, I wish I had finished my degree, then took the path that I did.

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Long Chile was a silly place.

1. Yes
2.. yes. And then a 2nd one
3. Yes.

I went to university for 8.5 years, undergrad and PhD.

I did both degrees at McGill University

I am very happy with the career path I chose and these opportunities would definitely not be available to me without a PhD.

I didn’t really know what I wanted after undergrad and I ended up in grad school because I wasn’t doing anything else but it opened a lot of doors for me in terms of employment and travel.

1. Yes
2. No, I transferred twice - once from an out of state school to an easy school, then from that easy school to a very hard school's professional program
3. Yes. Grad school is a different story.

I couldn't do what I do without my degree, and I've been doing it for 20 years, and I don't want to do anything else

1. Did you go to college? Yes
2. If you did, did you graduate from the first college you attended? Yes
3. Regardless of if you did or didn't go to college, are you happy with the path you chose? Yes


I chose to enlist in the Navy after graduating from High School despite the fact that I received three different scholarships to attend universities that I had applied to. I felt that I would not appreciate the opportunity and would probably be kicked out of school for hanging out a dorm window wearing a toga and other dastardly deeds.

I went to school after I left active duty although I did take a few course while I was on shore duty. Had I known better, I would have been able to finish my BA degree before going back to sea duty but I was not aware of several accelerated programs available in San Diego.

I found going to college after 11 years of active duty in the Navy was very easy for the most part. Discipline is a big part of school and the military taught me that very well. Being a supervisor also helped a lot, my degree was in Business Management and I had 5 year of experience walking into the first class. I graduated with honors in an accelerated program while working full time, a very doable task for someone with military experience like mine.

I am very happy I went for the degree, it enabled me to change my career from law enforcement (I was a Federal officer after I left the Navy), to the Contracting career field in the Federal government. That career change also allowed me to earn a graduate degree, paid for by the government. Those two have allowed me to reach a level that is very rewarding, comfortable and interesting. Without the degree I would still be in law enforcement and based on the friends I still communicate with at my last duty station, not a happy camper. The law enforcement job lost a lot of luster when DHS took over the US Customs Service.

1. 2 year technical trade school, came out with an associates degree in electronics

2. No. I pretended to go to community college for a year, dropping my classes shortly after each semester began, then found myself on a several year drug fuel bender in the earl 90's San Fransisco rave scene. I was 22 when I went into the technical school

3. Yes, I am probably an unusual example though. I was/am really good at what I do, learned a lot on the job, worked with some really smart people, took extra training along the way (programming classes mostly), and now while I think my official title is Senior Scientist, I am the principal electrical engineer designing and building some really cool stuff, making more money than I need. I got a little lucky along the way with layoffs becoming excellent opportunities to improve my job and pay. Ironically I might be getting laid off again here soon. Thats cool, I'm a little sick of St. Louis... maybe I'll go to Washington, or Colorado. I think I may have missed a little of the "college experience" but I am very happy with my life, even if i lose my current job, and wouldn't change anything.


ETA: I should mention that not having a 4-year degree has certainly limited my opportunities, some companies just cant look at my body of work and require that paper, no matter what. Which I think is very funny because 2 of the worst engineers I have worked with have their degrees from Stanford and Cornell (maybe you've heard of it).

1 - yes - several times
2 - yes - several times
3 - yes/no - I'm really happy with the end result now. But it would have been a lot better if 1 and 2 were only once and not several times

We've all met 18 - 21 year olds. They are generally idiots. But yet we expect them to know what they want to do for the rest of their lives. I would have been much better waiting a year or two to go to school out of high school, I just had no idea what I wanted to do. But the scholarships weren't waiting. But I was pushing 30 before I came close to knowing.

---

I'm beginning to think that we are much more fucked than I thought.

y
n
y

always wanted to be a pilot. my degree is marketing. never had a marketing job in my life. i knew airlines would ask if i had a degree. a degree, generally, is not a requirement to gain employment, but it does make you more competitive. i'd guess less than 2% of the guys i fly with don't have a degree. imo, unless youre going into something specific, i.e. medicine, engineering, i don't think it matters what your degree is. the "norm" of today tho is much different than the norm of my day. graduated college in early 90s. i don't believe having a degree will ever hurt ya, but i don't think going deep in debt for something that is less than specific is smart either.

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ΜΟΛΩΝ-ΛΑΒΕ
we're doomed

1. Yes - I went to two colleges (one in Belgium, one in US)
2. Yes - one degree from each college
3. Yes, absolutely. I'm a materials scientist and 20 years after graduating I'm still building on my original education, having spent my entire career in materials science R&D.

That said - my education was my plan B, when my Plan A was still to be a pro cyclist. I simply did not have the immune system to handle sports at a high level so my Plan B quickly became the only plan.

1. Yes
2. No
3. Yes

Yes,
Yes,( EDIT--should be NO) LOL I just remembered I transferred after 2yrs but my plan was never to graduate from the first school, it was the best option I had because of grades in HS, but like 99% of graduates ended in the automotive field and I DID NOT want to work in the auto industry so always planed on transferring after 2yrs. And I am now about to hit 30yrs working with GM... (In my defense at the other school I got the opportunity to work for Boeing and learned for my field the industry your in is not as big a deal as the size of the company-- working for Boeing in Seattle every one was impressed I had worked for GM, working for GM in Detroit everyone was impressed I had worked at Boeing. The equations are the same , the parts are different sizes and the importance of space, mass, cost is different but the works mostly the same)

Mostly, I have worked in my chosen field 30 yrs at the same company. Probably would have done better had I gone into Actuarial work instead of engineering, but not sure in the mid 80's the big data boom of the future could be seen. But overall have had a pretty good life, and was able to provide for my family so no regrets with past decisions.

2 of my kids are in College now, without a doubt its the right place for them, they know what they want and are pursing it. 3rd daughter is about to start Senior yr of HS really doesn't know what she wants, and we are trying to persuade her to go to community college for a few years maybe get an idea of what she wants to do.

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Just Triing
Triathlete since 9:56:39 AM EST Aug 20, 2006.
Be kind English is my 2nd language. My primary language is Dave it's a unique evolution of English.

Alright, so the general consensus, with a few exceptions, is that people who went to college found it worth it.

Now I want to add a question or two.

Do you see anything inherently “bad” about a two year AA degree? I know that earning potential is typically higher with a four year Bachelors degree, but it often comes at a much higher cost.

If you couldn’t afford a 4-year, is there anything wrong with a two year in your opinion?

Sounds like you should have gone to business school. Most small business folks could benefit from that. Seems they focus on their craft and wing the business side, when in reality, they know the creative, but need more education on the business side.

An artist with an art degree can make interesting art and teach.
An artist with a business degree, can make interesting art and money.

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Just Triing
Triathlete since 9:56:39 AM EST Aug 20, 2006.
Be kind English is my 2nd language. My primary language is Dave it's a unique evolution of English.

No, there's not.

The problem is that employers are often demanding education and experience levels very opposed to having a "trade school" and "tradesman" centered approach.

I kind of like the idea of someone having a craft or trade and going to 2 year school if it fits the bill. But I really feel that employers want it ALL. They want 4 years college, extra ed, all sorts of stuff and they don't want to invest in their employees whatsoever.

Employers increasingly want to manage employees as fixed assets, and if they need someone for another responsibility or roll needing more it's 100% on the employee outside of work and they don't want to invest in training people.

Just IMO.

I really want people to spend less on college and maybe approach trade/2 year stuff. Certainly. But that's not what the American economy is demanding.

They don't see it as a part of business to develop skills in employees starting with something like a base 2 year education and some skills, they just see it as a line item on a compensation program.

And, frankly, there's not even anything political about that. It's just how employers are acting, and employees are consequently reacting in the ways you see.

Depends on field, market, cost, right? That really determines if you can/can't "afford" it. You can be dirt poor looking at 200K in debt but if you're going to be landing with a law firm, a pharmacy, or a specialty MD practice, you can afford it. You could have 20K in debt with a - ahem - music degree, and have no chance to pay it off. Successful musicians, don't kill me. Art degree. Whatever, you get the idea.

If you don't have the capacity or aptitudes to make a 4 year degree viable or affordable, then nothing wrong with 2 year degrees. Although I'd even consider trade or labor route at that point.

Shit I am 52 and don't know what I want to do for the rest of my life..

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Just Triing
Triathlete since 9:56:39 AM EST Aug 20, 2006.
Be kind English is my 2nd language. My primary language is Dave it's a unique evolution of English.

 
1. Did you go to college?
Yes.

2. If you did, did you graduate from the first college you attended?
Yes, I didn't transfer but wondered if I should have. Went to a different place for grad school.


3. Regardless of if you did or didn't go to college, are you happy with the path you chose?
Now yes.... But I agree with this ...

I consider myself lucky in that I chose to study something that I got interested in (Cog.Sci) and pursued it into grad school. At the time it was somewhat esoteric with limited employment opportunities. But now, much of that is now relevant in my field (Data.Sci / Analytics / AI ) and my background is a differentiator for me. The field I'm in didn't really even exist in my undergrad days. So I would say it's all turned out well. My wife "lucked" out as well - with her interest in Art History - and the ability to apply that in gainful employment in several ways.


However, what I worry about is giving the advice to my kids to just pursue their interests and it'll work out in the end. My wife and I were lucky. I worry that my kids may not have the same luck, and they could be stuck in un/under employment and unhappy.

The open University (look it up) provides certs at the end of 1 year full time, 2 and awards bachelors after the equivalent of 3

Most euro bachelors are 3 years full time

You have to be a little clearer about what you are considering doing and to what end.

Two years of what, why?

The answer to the questions you've posed is "it depends"

Here is what we know. In the aggregate any sort of degree puts you ahead, on average, of those without one.

I have friends who left school at 16, trained as apprentices and were admitted directly on to good masters.

More info. Based on postings to date, whatever you can afford to do will put you ahead

In terms of the educational material to learn depends on the quality of the AA vs. 4 year school. You could take a bunch of easy 101 classes while getting an AA degree and then struggle with the higher level or advanced seminars at a 4 year school because your foundational knowledge is not so good.

Also non-academically, there's a ton of outside the class development by staying all 4 years in one place and bonding with a group of friends you make, vs. transferring in later.

well clearly I think a 2-year degree is just fine. Pick the trade/field wisely, some 2 year degrees are crap, others are not. I know a lot of people making more with a 2-year versus a 4 year, the exception being the STEM 4+ year degrees. I know 3 people who made over 200k last year with a 2 year degree.

Also I know several of my old friends went the electrician apprenticeship route. Provided its not over crowed in your area, they all make good livings.

1. Yes
2. Yes
3. I like it well enough, but I probably played it too safe. In part because I was having a good time in college, and I didn't want difficult classes to get in my way.

nothing wrong with at all.

Depending on where you live and what area(s) you are looking to get into I would consider a career going directly into the "trades".

I run a unionized commercial mechanical contracting company in the upper Midwest. Many young men and women with some mechanical "hands on" appititude try college for a year (or 2) before joining our trade.

When they do (or in the case of some who get involved right out of high school) they immediately go to work getting paid, while their schooling (which is typically done at trade/ 2 year schools) is paid for via their union (via money we employers pay to the union).

My company has about 85 techs in various fields (HVAC, sprinkler, electrical/controls, plumbing, service techs etc). About 8-10 of these are young men and women in their late 20's who have been through a 4-6 year apprenticeship with us getting educated and earning a percent of a journeymans wages. They are now late 20's, full time journeymen, earning 70-80K per year with full health and pension benefits, in the current economic situation with all the overtime they can eat, and $0 in debt as their "schooling" was paid for as part of the process.

I have another 8-10 salespeople in the late 40's to early 60's who spent 20 years in the trades in the field building relationships with customers and have transitioned to 6 figure desk jobs maintaining those relationships while younger people do the work.

Not sure this is the direction you are intending but if so I heavily endorse.

I'm the same age and I've been told that my wife doesn't give two shits what I WANT to do. That I should go to work, get paid, shut up, and get my jollies in the time I am not at work.

She might be right.

---

I'm beginning to think that we are much more fucked than I thought.

There is nothing wrong with starting in a community college or signing up for a 2 year program, the cost is usually less and it will give you 2 years to think about where you want to be, what you want to do and how you are going to get there. The military gave me 11 years to figure that out but 2 years will be better than nothing. Always remember that you are not nailed down to one career/job/direction. I went from the military to law enforcement and finally a business career field, each choice building on what I learned from the previous job.

Depends.
I could not do what I do with an AA. No one who I spend time with could, except my wife.
Two years at community college then entering a BS program? Sure. I know people who have and do just fine.

I couldn't afford a 4 year degree and I went anyway. I make 3x what my dad did when I was in high school. In state public schools usually aren't too expensive. Good private schools can be cheaper if you can't afford them - Harvard, Stanford, Wellesley, etc are all free to families that make less than $75k

1) Yes
2) I would say Yes. I did graduate from the 1st college I went to full time, but did take classes at another one while I was in the military.
3) Yes. I opened doors because I had a paper that said I have basic skills. Wish I wasn't forced to take classes to be "well rounded". How much was I forced to spend on "Music as a listening experience"?

1. Yes.
2. Yes, both BS and MS, then went to a different school for a PhD.
3. Absolutely. Studied engineering; there's really not a non-college way to pursue this field. Also, understand that I'm part of the lunatic fringe; never really left and have spent my career as a Professor. So, since I'm in the business, I am interested to see where you ultimately would like to take the discussion.

The UK has changed some of its engineering offerings where if you work for rolls Royce ro BAE you can pursue a mech eng or aero eng apprenticeship and then transition straight in to your bachelors for chartered status

It's good for those that want to earn and study or for who school at 16 is not the right choice

Yeah, I’ll lay it out more openly now that I’ve been able to read a lot more responses.

I’m currently enrolled in an in-state, public four year university. I wanted to love it, I wanted to feel motivated and passionate, but that has all flown out of me as I’ve gone through the schooling that I have.

There was one quarter where we had some life happen and I ended up missing two exams, and my credit completion percentage dropped, which affected my financial aid. My wife and I have to pull out of savings for my tuition, and it hurts.

I have a family, and want to be able to work and support them, and provide a good life, but I won’t chase money for the heck of chasing money. If I make 50-70k, and my wife is making the same, I’d be thrilled.

So i’m at this intersection. Do I decide to keep pouring my time into something I don’t feel passionate about, and has the potential to financially set us back quite a bit, or do I look into a 2-year AAS degree that is $1000 a quarter max, that would get me out of school quicker, and with less money invested?

The 2 year that i’m looking at is an AAS of CAD Design and Drafting. I’ve been using Solidworks for 7 years now and AutoCAD for 3, so I have experience and love this. Yes the earning potential isn’t quite what a 4-year degree might net you, but from the research I’ve done it’s not a worthless degree so to speak.

So that’s where i’m at and what i’m struggling through.

I'm just going to copy scorpio's answers for this exam.

Mine would be almost word-for-word identical. Parallel lives, much?

with this as more background......see what I said above. Those in my employ in this area have 2 year degrees. Work for my degreed engineers and PE's, and make in the range of your number (lower to middle of that range).

I would not consider it fantastically exciting or rewarding work. Again, that would fall more to the degreed engineers. You would be following their direction for their work.

You're 20-ish?

You dont have to love it, you're going to be doing something or other for at least 30, and probably much closer to 50 years

That's a long time. Life happens, careers change.

If you spend 2 years now getting 75% of what four years get you, if you can't manage or don't want to pursue the four year option then do it.

The point to understand is you start behind and the gap between a 2 year and four year widens over time.

Yes, people can give you examples of how in spite of not doing it, they rose above and if that's you, that's great, but we, and more you than me, are going to live through a period where knowledge will be the currency of value even more than it is today.

Remaining current, and being well educated offers better life chances

As to you and your wife earning x.

My wife and I earned exactly the same. We had kids. How do you want your kids raised? However it is, unless you have family to look after them full time you take a pay cut

Yes. 4 year business/ finance degree and later an MBA

Yes, although I transferred to a college closer to home for one year and then went back

Yes and No- I am happy with my education, but a little unhappy about not having guidance or direction when I was a teen and in my twenties. Financially, I’m happy with where I am, but I don’t think I have lived up to my ability and I question if I followed a career path within my field I could have achieved more, monetary as well as personal satisfaction.

I should add- I think an education should be for personal wealth and not to get a job. People who go to school only to “get a job” I think are going for the wrong reason.

I am self employed and have been since I was a student in college.

What do you do?

How old are you?

45

I started a landscaping company when a college student 26 years ago. I was 19. It was the best opportunity at that time. I began just mowing lawns. Now, I have 11 trucks, 4 skid steers, tons of equipment, and 13-22 employees depending on the season. We do essentially everything in landscaping: sprinkler systems, retaining walls, grading, tree and shrub install, etc. as well as complete maintenance.

I also now own 8 rental properties. So, I’m a landlord too.

Over the last 10 years, I have taught as an adjunct or “visiting” professor at the University I graduated from as well as a local private college.

I was afraid I would forget what I learned if I’m not using it, so teaching helped retain the info.

I’m fortunate to feel like I’m looking for enlightenment. I am wondering what th me next path for me will be.

I can't speak to the career prospects you might have with the 2-year AAS degree vs the 4-year program you have been pursuing (what field?). But, where I am we often find students 'sticking it out' in college without actually wanting to be here. Particularly in engineering, it is a pretty tough slog to grind through to a BS if your heart is not in it. Some students make it, others flame out.

I wish I had a better sense for what ultimately comes of the students who do stick it out, but don't enjoy their studies. I'm sure a BS in engineering ultimately opens doors, and continues to open doors throughout a career. And, if you don't like the technical work of engineering, many (most?) engineers eventually drift into something else over their careers. So, maybe it is worth it to just swallow hard and gut it out. Unless you definitely see yourself on the path to flaming out.

Your family obligations put you in a different category, as well. Unlike most of the students I work with, these decisions are not just about you. It's also difficult to figure out how to balance career & personal issues. Good luck finding the right path that will work for you.

I suggest talking to your professors and the dean of students. See if you can make up those missed exams.

Most schools will work with you, if there is good reason, and it sounds like you have a valid one. I taught part time for a decade and I saw many scenarios that I think many students would be surprised that the faculty really does care, behind the scenes.

I knew some of that ;)

I think you've probably done alright :)

Could you have made more? How much more do you need or want?

I'm the same age, have been self employed but went corporate and quite unexpectedly enjoyed it. Have done / do the landlord thing, been sued, had an apartment burn down.

We have moved around but I think we want to move again, go overseas, allow the kids to travel.

There is no way I have 100% optimised my earnings, but I can't lose sleep over it.

1. yes
2. yes
3. yes and no. w/ the benefit of hindsight i would have chosen a "better" major (i majored in history) and worked quite a bit harder (i coasted). but i am where i am today because of the path i have been on, so i am happy about that.

I suggest definitely pursuing your AAAS in CAD for now, but leave the door open to pursue a BA/BS in a related degree (not necessarily in Engineering) in the future (near).

Go to any online job search sites (Indeed, Linkedin, etc.) and just look at jobs that might interest you in the future and see what their minimum education requirements are. Maybe the jobs you'll see are trade jobs that require some other certification besides a degree.

Having at least a BA/BS in something/anything opens doors to many positions. 10-15 years from now, you may regret not spending the extra 2-3 years to get a Bachelor's Degree (or other certification), and the 2-3 years would seem such a short amount of time as compared to how you see it now.


Good luck!

---

Chris
*********************
“Life should not be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside in a cloud of smoke, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming "Wow! What a Ride!”
― Hunter S. Thompson,

I can only speak to the A/E industry. I know hundreds of architects and engineers. I've worked for and with dozens of firms. Over the last 20 years I've met 2 people who are just drafters, with a 2 year degree.

CAD really changed the industry. What used to take a team of drafters 40 years ago takes 1 person at a computer. What could be done by a drafter is now done by a interns/"aspiring architects" or EI/EIT/Engineering graduates

Ok, so your situation is different than the typical undergrad on campus trying to figure out what they want to do. Specifically, the difference is you have a family situation. That's a significant dependence and priority there that most undergrads don't have.

From a cost of education, what if you balance the community college, AA courses with the 4year degree? Meaning take some courses at the community college where presumably tuition is cheaper, then transfer the credits and still graduate with the paper from the 4-year institution. Maybe even graduate sooner. My undergrad roommate (pre-med) did this each summer - taking some of the more rigorous courses at the local community college over summers b/c they were easier, shorter, and he got his A's, and transferred them over and continued the Fall and Spring semesters at the 4 year school. Saved a bunch on a per-credit cost, and kept his GPA high for med school applications.

As far as what you like or want to do, I don't think you've answered. Those are using tools to an end, vs a career. Liking to use tools is a shallower answer from the big picture of what those tools are for. Aeronautical engineering? Architecture? Vehicle design? And that's what provides a deeper satisfaction. Part of a 4-year undergrad education allows you to develop and discover, deeply, what you want to do -- and then you can use the tools to get there, and gain a deeper satisfaction about what you're doing.

I was in a little bit of a similar position as you. Early sophomore year at my big state U I had to have surgery. I was swimming and playing water polo. It really messed with my season although the vasa trainer and I became BFFs while my lower body healed. It threw me into a big funk. I changed majors from EE to Econ. I signed up to study abroad as a red shirt year to just get away and heal since the pressure to swim was really high and my recovery was not as hoped.

I fell in love with the university overseas and transferred and got an Econ degree. It’s been good to me - but sometimes I think I should have stuck with the engineering. Although personally moving overseas alone at 19 was perhaps my best life decision as I really found myself there. So it’s a crap shoot.

I would think this could be a regrettable decision in a decade. Really examine why you are doing this - because you are overwhelmed? That happens. But long term you’re better to fight through temporary challenges. What will your family look like in 5 years and how will you be more fulfilled? I think you will have a lot more options with a 4 year degree- how much longer would it take you to finish the 4 year vs a 2 year since you’ve already started. Can you get a CAD certificate or something in the process of your 4 year so you could do that if you wanted?

Looks like I will be the first to say No.
I choose the Navy at 18 and did 25 years retired and then 5 with MSC (Military Sealift Command) I compltely retired at 52.
I did go to multiple Navy schools and many different training forms.
My children did go to college so for them;

1.Yes
2.They both started at a 2yr school then transferred to 4yr "in state"
3.They seem to be, engineering and accounting, they are both off my payroll :-)

The only place I know where you can't transfer credits into is Harvard. They don't take transfers period. Every other college takes the 2 years of community college as some kind of credits towards a degree.

Places like California have specific, explicit guides to do so. They say if you take X at American River College, and you pass, you get credits in Y at Sacramento State or Z at UC Davis.

1. Yes
2. No - 2 years at the local university, then 3 more (I loved college) at the state university for my B.S. Then to grad school out of state.
3. Yes

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clm
Nashville, TN
https://twitter.com/ironclm | http://ironclm.typepad.com

You have made choices in your life, that have put you into a very difficult lifestyle. I think folks here have indicated that in some of your past threads.

Good luck. I have no real help as you need to decide is some pain now worth gains later.

For those who need a refresher of KB's story.

https://forum.slowtwitch.com/...t_P6595417/#p6595648

https://forum.slowtwitch.com/...n_P6379384/#p6379384


Reading more from the first link above... These 2 posts of yours from there were some interesting forshadowing.



and



I added the bold above, but if you heart was set on being a Mech Eng from 1st grade, why stop pursuing that?

Good luck, I hope this somehow works out for you, but you have definitely chosen to stack the odds against yourself. Your best option might be to go pray and hope it works out.

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Just Triing
Triathlete since 9:56:39 AM EST Aug 20, 2006.
Be kind English is my 2nd language. My primary language is Dave it's a unique evolution of English.

Hmmm, I would pretty close to 100% disagree with this statement. Although I also think you should go to school in an area you are passionate about, you should be looking at the "get a job" side also.

My daughter is a Music major, she loves music and playing oboe, she is eyes wide open on her job future's and salary options. That said she is still pursuing her passion even knowing had she followed her other college option, neurology she would have had more money and better "job" .

I think not having the "to get a job" perspective leads to the graduate student in Greek Underwater Roman Basket weaving with goat intestines degree no job prospects and $300k in debt. situation.

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Just Triing
Triathlete since 9:56:39 AM EST Aug 20, 2006.
Be kind English is my 2nd language. My primary language is Dave it's a unique evolution of English.

Let's go all the way back:
1 - Yes
2 - No
3 - Yes, with caveats

And there is nothing wrong with an AA degree: it's what I have.

I started at an engineering school (civil) and quickly learned it was not for me. Transfer to the local Tech college and got my Associates in Industrial Electricity. The benefits to having that degree have been numerous, from boosting my resume to the top of the heap, as well as giving me 2000 hours credit of OJT to go toward my Journeyman's license.

Worked in the field, been in and out of industry in maintenance and controls, got my Master's License and started my own business, went back into industry, taught myself PLC's, and now I'm working for a system's integration company. Essentially, I worked my way into an engineering position without having all the schooling and debt. (I tell people I'm "Field Commissioned"...

Now, there were plenty of stumbles for me, and back-tracking, some of it caused by economics, some of it my own stupid doings. But I've worked myself into a pretty damn comfortable position, monetarily, at least for me.

I wish that I had gotten my bachelor's in EE, as my knowledge base has some holes to it, and I have a hard time utilizing unknown software and integrating new hardware sometimes, but I honestly enjoy what I do.

There are more paths out there to prosperity than the four year degree route. Don't be afraid to take a different trek, but also know that there will be times you wish you hadn't.

I tell every high schooler that I talk to to seriously consider an apprenticeship, or if not, to at least make sure any job they take provides for tuition reimbursement, and then let your employer pay for schooling. Take advantage of *all* of an employer's benefits.
- Jeff

Is your wife presently working? I've known couples to tag team degree programs. By all means get an AA, but realize that many possible avenues are nearly closed off to you if you don't have a 4-year degree. You have chosen a harder and narrower path. I hope it works out for you.

1. Yes
2. Yes. Maritime, University, 4 yrs + 1 yr as an apprentice officer. Degree in marine engineering. Years later I went to physio college.
3. Yes

1. Yes. Straight out of high school to University of Calgary (as others have said, that's more or less equivalent to a state college in the USA)
2. Yes. B. Sc. in electrical engineering and then a master's degree.
3. Yes. Not without its ups and downs but it's been an amazing ride. I've been able to work with some of the best people in the world on some pretty cutting edge stuff. Unlike a lot of people I've been able to stay technical, by choice, for 30 years now, and it's been a solid diet of analog/digital/RF circuit design and firmware / software as well as doing overall system architecture for some really interesting consumer products.

Two year vs. four year:
In Canada, the title of "engineer" is a protected thing. You can't title yourself "engineer", or offer engineering consulting services, without being so licensed by the relevant local professional engineering association - similar to doctors etc. You have to take the four-year undergraduate program, get at least a couple of years of experience under the guidance of other PEs, and then pass a professional practice exam (ethics, business law etc). Some technical companies will not require many of their staff to have the full PE accreditation but in the oil and gas industry it's generally required. If you start your own consulting business and you wanted to call it "KB's Engineering Ltd." then it's a requirement for you to have both yourself and your company registered with the provincial regulator.

If you go to a technical school that offers two-year diploma programs, you can get an "xxxx engineering technologist" certificate, but it does not entitle you to call yourself an engineer, unless you go back in, do the upgrade courses (typically another three years because not everything carries over) and then pass the appropriate professional practice exam.

There are private technical schools such as DeVry Institute of Technology, but despite them styling themselves as "university", they are not accredited to confer B. Sc. degrees, at least in Canada, and so many graduates from those places end up getting a technologist job at least to start with. I've seen some people from there that were surprised and disappointed to learn that their (expensive) education was actually not equivalent to public universities' degree programs despite what the advertising told them.

On the one hand, going to the two year school now gets you out into the work force sooner but there will be a ceiling on your eventual career unless you upgrade your schooling later on. Doing the full B.Sc. degree all in one go is a lot more work but it will get your foot in the door in more places and to a higher level in the long run. One of the guys I went through my undergrad with, had four kids by the time he graduated. So it's not like it can't be done, irrespective of your family situation, but you will be a busy guy.

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Less is more.

1. University.
2. Yes
3. Yes

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Remember - It's important to be comfortable in your own skin... because it turns out society frowns on wearing other people's

In that regard, I agree with you. Although, the stellar people do make a great living at no matter what they do. That’s at the very pointy end. I try not to roll my eyes at all of the sport science majors and what not. I should mention that my college roommate was an art major, applied for a job at a university out of state for the summer and instead- they offered him a free masters program! He took it. Graduated and is now an art professor. Makes a decent buck doing what he loves. Still makes art and sells it in galleries.

It’s possible....

My comment initially was more about the desire to learn and want to learn. As I get older I appreciate good conversation and I think educated knowledgeable people offer that type of convo. On the flip side, a few drinks and a convo with a stripper can offer much different convo, but often also interesting. Lol

What community colleges have a 2+2 agreement with your state university (2+2 Is an agreement that all credits from the 2 year transfer over). I would imagine that Spokane community has that agreement with EWU, and WSU, and probably

Confirm that then, if you want to go back to the university, you won't be out any credits. If not you still get your Associates.

Honestly, and I work at a 4 year, I would encourage every future student to do this. From a student loan/financial burden perspective it just makes sense.

Couldn’t agree more. I would advise everyone not on a full ride to do this.

1. Yes. Started going to Junior College in California out of the Marines back in 2002. Was working full-time in a physically demanding job as essentially a technical laborer. I was operating various drilling rigs to collect earth samples. The rigs were mounted on trucks, which meant traveling all over California. This did not lend to a very balanced life. Work took priority, life and school took a backseat. Dropped out of JC after about 30 credits, just worked until 2007. From 2007-2009, I was able to resume JC while working at a less physically demanding job that was in the same industry. Field technician collecting earth samples again, but now doing maintenance and installation of site remediation equipment where our company focused on cleaning up dirty, contaminated sites. This job lasted till late 2008 when the economy slowed. I was let go because the company had plenty of degreed people (geologists and civil engineers) that could do the labor. From late 2010-2012 I went to a state school while I was unemployed (working part-time, with support from my then wife) to finally finish my civil engineering degree. Took far too many needless classes and could have finished earlier, but hindsight is 20/20. Was fortunate to meet my boss at school since he was a lecturer for my soil mechanics lab. Started as an intern my last semester, hired right after graduation, and then started on my Master's soon after. Worked in geotechnical engineering and earned a Master's in Civil Engineering, with emphasis in Geotech, so everything was finally coming together. Now I'm searching for an opportunity to pursue a PhD in Geotech because I miss being in school and engineering just happens to be a passion of mine. I got lucky in that regard.

2. Nope! All things final...attended about 5 JC's and a state school for my BS. A different state school for my MS.

3. Extremely happy. I can't emphasize how important earning just the BS was in moving up in my career. I always had a chip on my shoulder when I was still working on my degree because I was treated as a laborer, even though I could keep up intellectually with everyone. That chip fell off when I finally earned a degree and I took advantage of the opportunity it gave me. I had numerous setbacks while trying to finish my BS, but I learned from all of them. I'm a licensed Professional Engineer now and I'm taking the Geotech Engineer exam in November. After that, I can kind of pick what I want to do. It's about time I open my own engineering firm.

Do you see anything inherently “bad” about a two year AA degree? Yeah, unfortunately, if you want to do any kind of engineering and be licensed, you need a 4-year degree. Not really any way around it. You can be a CAD drafter with 2-years, but not a lot of vertical movement, career-wise.

In my opinion, if you want to do engineering, go to the least expensive accredited school and take max units per semester. Grind it out. I went to a commuter state school and a slightly better state polytechnic school for my MS. I work with engineers who went to Cal Tech, Texas A&M, Georgia Tech, Purdue, etc...and I do the same work they do.

Since you don't live with your parents and are financially independent of them, You should be able to get federal grants pretty easily.

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Just Triing
Triathlete since 9:56:39 AM EST Aug 20, 2006.
Be kind English is my 2nd language. My primary language is Dave it's a unique evolution of English.

Your last point is true

Unless you are looking at a specific school with a specific outcome or market in mind it rarely makes a difference

In the UK chartered status is what determines the value of an engineer and in the end you can get that whether you go to oxbridge or portsmouth

Bachelors are a minimum requirement for any real progression. The lack of one will become more of an issue the further you get. An exception would be a professional qualification done whilst on the job e.g. Tax or accountancy

For the umpteenth time..

It matters, if you are one of those who goes out and gets involved in Formula SAE or other types of engineering things. The bigger 4yr programs will have more of those opportunities and networking. Coming in 2yrs later, still can take advantage of it just a bit harder, as others have 2yr of experience.

But if your just going to class and working and hoping to get a degree, it matters far less.

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Just Triing
Triathlete since 9:56:39 AM EST Aug 20, 2006.
Be kind English is my 2nd language. My primary language is Dave it's a unique evolution of English.

I don't agree that it matters. Maybe for getting your first job out of school, but beyond that, it doesn't matter. Actually, knowing someone who can get you an opportunity to interview is more important. But I am biased. I went into a 4-year school at the junior level and didn't participate in any clubs.

Just last week I went to an engineering luncheon to hear a speaker talk about a local highway and mingled with about half a dozen other professionals from the industry. No one cared or even asked what schools I attended. Nor did they ask what level of education I have. They asked about what types of projects I work on and what kind of relevant experience I had in the engineering industry so they could assess whether I could be of use to them at some point in the future. My business card has Newduguy, P.E. on it, I have a breadth of experience, and dozens of projects under my belt. That's what seems to matter most. At least in my industry.

I don't know what SAE is. I do know that if you want to work for mckinsey oxbridge is a good place to start. If you want to work for a small consultancy not so much.

In the long run, four year degree trumps two and I suspect that the work of the shorter programs will get scarcer over time.

I think you've just said what I said

late to the party

1. yes
2. yes.....degree + Ph.D
3. changes on a daily basis

in the 30+ years since finishing college (university in UK) I've had constant mentally challenging and well paid work in the pharma industry; seen a lot of the world, worked and lived in 2 countries, been involved with projects that genuinely were groundbreaking and made the world a better place.......but i still got envious of my friend from school who, in his late 40s, was the postman in the little mining village (with no coal mine anymore) where i grew up when he talked about watching his kids play cricket on the same field we played on 40 years ago.

if i had to do it all again i have no clue what i would change, but i would be a whole lot cooler.

"Formula SAE" is a design competition where undergraduate student teams work to budget, design and race motorcycle engined open-wheel cars.
There are other similar team challenges with different focus. My son is on his university's solar car team. Same idea, except to design a battery powered electric car whose sole energy source for the duration of the competition is the sun.

The good thing about these extracurricular competitions is that they teach real world problem solving and teamwork and generally a new graduate that has meaningfully participated on one of these teams can have as much as a year's worth of functional advantage on a four-year strictly academic undergrad program.

Another thing that has equal or better value (and is a thing to look for in a four-year school) is to see if they support a student co-op or internship program. This has the advantage where a student gets gainful employment before graduating, gets some good real world experience, and possibly ends up with a permanent job offer before they even start their final year of undergraduate studies (still pending on actually doing that year of school, obviously).

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Less is more.

Well, you kind of made my point, If you had been involved in those engineering things, you would have already met those people, they would have helped you along, to a better first job (potentially).

Of course the further you get from school the less it matters. The bigger/better schools typically have better ties to industry and have more potential for their kids to be involved BEFORE they graduate. I agree, the education is basically the same, the difference is in the opportunities offered. For 80 maybe 90% of the kids it doesn't matter. But for that 10 or 20% who are going to do more than just go to classes, it can make a very big difference.

30+ yrs ago, the Univ I ended up at for my last 2 yrs was one of the best Automotive N&V univ. I ended up teaching N&V to Ford engineers my last year there. I got a job offer from GM while interning there, I got the intern job cause kids in the classes ahead of me working there knew me. If I had stayed at my previous Univ, I am sure I would have landed a job in the Auto industry but not my dream job that 30yrs on I am basically still doing.

Those Formula SAE and other type programs become HUGE networking opportunities and job offers do come from them. For everyone no.

Another example, my Daughter right now is in engineering at a fairly well known engineering and medical school. This summer (between Soph and Junior yr) she is doing medical research on live animals and they think she will have a saleable patent from the work and a published research paper.. That opportunity would not have happened, at Univ of Toledo. (where my boss got his engineering deg from). That said, most kids are not in that 10% I sure has hell was not when I started Univ. and really fell into it my Junior yr as I found I liked N&V.

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Just Triing
Triathlete since 9:56:39 AM EST Aug 20, 2006.
Be kind English is my 2nd language. My primary language is Dave it's a unique evolution of English.

Society of Automotive Engineers. They have a few different "competitions" for universities to compete in, Baja buggie races, EV cars etc.. Just using as an example of industry working with certain universities, to provide hands on engineering work for kids. I think the Sunracer program is still going on, that was a huge one, yrs ago. Build a solar powered car to race across the country. I know the civil engineering society does the Concrete Canoe competitions.

Yeah I think we agree.

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Just Triing
Triathlete since 9:56:39 AM EST Aug 20, 2006.
Be kind English is my 2nd language. My primary language is Dave it's a unique evolution of English.

3 yes. I totally support the idea of college education because of its numerous benefits. I had to combine work and sudy to pay my loans, and had to buy an essay from time to time to get good grades. But that situation taught me how to overcome all obstacles.

College is a scam. They've increased my tuition every single year but have made no improvements to make sense of the rate increase. As an engineer, I have to pay substantially more tuition to subsidize people who decided to get degrees in underwater basket weaving.

I'm glad I'm 21 and already a house in debt.

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Gone with the wind

Instagram: palmtreestriathlon

Really, all undergrads don't pay the same tuition rate? Never heard of that. Usually I think there is an undergrad and higher grad rate.

The STEM majors have to pay a certain percentage more in tuition than the liberal arts majors. When I asked they say it's because of "equipment", when it's been long paid for by this point.

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Gone with the wind

Instagram: palmtreestriathlon

And you will, in theory at least, make significantly more than the basket weavers. It's not a scam.

There is a reason that HBS, stanford, uni of Chicago etc charge what they do. It's selective. There are no basket weavers and in theory their students will go on to make great money if not do great things.

Secondly, if you're smart enough to do engineering, you're smart enough to get a job and clear your debt in 4-5 years.

All things here are true. I've always had a hard time seeing into the future and doing long-term goal setting and staying consistent. That's one of the things that drew me to Ironman was to work on that skill so that when I graduate I can stay dedicated to paying the debt off as quickly as possible without living like a shut-in with my parents until I'm 35.

In reality, I still don't think that college needs to be as expensive as it is. While I'm getting a worthwhile degree, a lot of people aren't, and an entire generation is fucked with debt. It's really hard to take risks in your career path when you've got all those K's hanging around your neck

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Gone with the wind

Instagram: palmtreestriathlon

How much do you think it would cost if all those "worthless" degree students weren't there paying tuition too?

I say this as a European.

If I were a smart, financially motivated US HS student, I'd apply to the best schools in Europe and go there.

Oxford and Cambridge cost you 15k a year intuition, 8k in accom and then spending money.

What's the US cost?

If I went to school in the US and I had a serious technical degree, I'd be looking at an overseas job for 5 years to clear debt and trouser cash.

I'm guessing my current tuition in Europe is amongst the most expensive. 45k US per annum. It is, in theory, a rounding error on the long term pay back......... Though that's a theory I'm testing.

If you are a smart engineering grad. I mean really smart, I'd consider a European masters for a year, a good school, eat the cost and then go work. UCL, Manchester, oxbridge, loads of French schools have amazing English Post grad quals

Then again, what do I know.

Yes, Yes, & Yes. It was great in my case, but I think it's important not to confuse schooling with education. A lot of the interpersonal and organizational skills I'm now using I picked up from reading books over the years. Never stop learning.

Hahaha.

Oxford undergrad tuition only for a US student is £30K, $45Kish, so roughly on par with US schools. If you are a US student smart enough to go to oxford, you’re probably offered a full ride somewhere (granted not at the caliber of Oxford or an Ivy)

ETA - US masters+ in engineering are almost always free + stipend.

Good point. I was thinking of eu uk fees

Still. There are European universities offering free tuition to overseas students

 
For US HS grads thinking of university in the UK, are there entrance exams required? Thinking about the various A-level and O-level exams? And is there a standardized exam used by non-UK schools? I can't imagine the SAT or ACT are used outside the US.

(thinking about possibilities for my daughter, rising Junior).

They'd accept a transcript and conversion of grades. The same way they accept the Bacc, French or international

You'd put sat, act and GPA on your ucas application

Please do not knock the University of Toledo.... Your daughter may not have had the medical research opportunity but she would have had a huge leg up in working for Zimmer/Biomet or any number of medical device/research firms. This is in addition to any of the research opportunities with the university.

I say this is a MechE graduate of UT. Discussing student load debt most people that did not live on campus freshmen/sophomore year and landed any co-op graduated with minimal student debt. (this assumes they did not decide to buy a motor cycle, climbing gear, or any number of stupid things friends of mine and I did. Through my co-ops I got to live in IN, CO, and NV almost completely paid for by my co-op company. When I was in NV I got trained for my first full time job, worked for my current employer as a contractor all the while I traveled the western United States. I had my full time post graduation job working on an hourly basis before I even had my degree in hand.

Almost everyone I knew in school had no problem finding a job if they did not get hired by their co-op company (2008-2010 time frame).

1. Yes
2. No- bounced around a bit location and major wise
3. Wouldn't trade it for anything. I like where I am at now, and I learned so much along the way (in and outside of school).

My boss went to Univ. of Toledo. But you make my point. UT apperently works with those companies you mentioned. Being in N&V I much more familiar with that area then the medical area. But universities (bigger ones or specialized smaller ones) will work with companies and yes there students have a leg up there.

As for my comparison. Even the leg up in those 2 companies can not compare with going to a school for undergrade that has resources of 4 major hospital networks, 2 that do research, and all the opportunities that provides. I was thinking of this thread as Covid was spreading and schools were closing and re-working classes and graduation. Larger more well endowed Universities had more options. My daughter at Case transitioned fairly smoothly to online. They held all their graduations virtually, and by most accounts it was very successful. My other daughter at Cent. Mich. things were not so smooth, still has not had a graduation ceremony, and unclear what if anything the Univ is doing at this point.

I went to a small Univ. Mich. Tech Univ. Yes I landed a summer job with my dream company Boeing and ended up working at my dream job with GM (almost 30yrs later still there). But to think all universities provide the same thing, and same opportunities, is simply not true.

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Just Triing
Triathlete since 9:56:39 AM EST Aug 20, 2006.
Be kind English is my 2nd language. My primary language is Dave it's a unique evolution of English.

Yes, yes and hell yes.

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_____________________________________
DISH is how we do it.

At which schools? Aside from "lab fees" or somethings like that I don't recall my engineering degree costing more than others...but I was at a primarily engineering school and this was almost 15 years ago. Your debt burden to obtain the same education is now likely significantly more than what mine was. In the overall scheme of things I've paid for out of my own pocket, college tuition doesn't crack the top 5.

and a pretty good Poem to :) Both paths are just as fair, but in hindsight taking the one s/he chose was the better and made all the differnece


Two roads diverged in a yellow wood,
And sorry I could not travel both
And be one traveler, long I stood
And looked down one as far as I could
To where it bent in the undergrowth;

Then took the other, as just as fair,
And having perhaps the better claim,
Because it was grassy and wanted wear;
Though as for that the passing there
Had worn them really about the same,

And both that morning equally lay
In leaves no step had trodden black.
Oh, I kept the first for another day!
Yet knowing how way leads on to way,
I doubted if I should ever come back.

I shall be telling this with a sigh
Somewhere ages and ages hence:
Two roads diverged in a wood, and I—
I took the one less traveled by,
And that has made all the difference.

Michigan.
Lower division, upper division (ie. fresh/soph, <55cr vs jr/sr+, >55cr)
Different colleges within the university have different rates.
Last year incoming Literature, science & the arts students paid $7615. Incoming Engineering students paid $8156.
Upper division LSA students paid $8597. Upper division Engineering students paid $10,565

Grad school gets crazy. Architecture students paid $15,565. M.Eng paid $13,975. M.Accounting paid $24,500. MBA paid $33,024.. MLS $11,945.

Some college's now charge more for 3rd and 4th yr students.

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Just Triing
Triathlete since 9:56:39 AM EST Aug 20, 2006.
Be kind English is my 2nd language. My primary language is Dave it's a unique evolution of English.

And that's likely on the low end of the spectrum compared to other schools. Those costs are per year, or 2 semesters, depending on schedule? I don't think salaries have increased proportionally to the cost of education.

I went to a MI school for both B.S. and M.S. For undergrad it was roughly 10k/year out of pocket, which included all living expenses. Based on the loans I took out my costs increased a bit over 1k/yr for each of the 4 years. Uncle Sam paid for my M.S., but I believe the cost at the time was similar or higher than what you listed for an M.Eng. I'm currently in an MBA program which he's also paying for, but the program isn't anywhere near the $33k it is there, but it's also an online program.

Michigan has since at least the 80s

Curious. Where are you in an MBA (I am)

My fees are 36k sterling online as well.

My Project Management Masters cost $30K from Penn State online. The MBA program which is a combination of online and on campus is $36K.

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TEAM HD
Each day is what you make of it so make it the best day possible.

Mine in theory was online and on campus. Then we had covid 😂

Is that for the entire program? I thought the amount listed was cost/year.

The government is paying roughly $10k per year for my program, plus the $1000/month they pay me for a housing stipend, despite the fact I have a full-time job. So all in for the program likely in the mid 30s. Although, my motivation for getting an MBA was primarily to get free access to the University pool.

Total program cost but it's a 2 Yr part time program. FT MBA in Europe is 1 year rather than 2 of US

Us Americans are slow learners....

Yeah...you keep getting fleeced for an extra year by your education establishments :-)

Went to University which is what we call it in Canada. College here is technical school. Did an Honours degree in three years which was a quirk of the system because I went to University in Quebec. So I did graduate from first college I attended. I actually could have got into medical school after two years but didn't feel ready so I stayed around to finish my degree. If I had blown my third year and not got in that would have been dumb. But I figured going into third year if I could not have hacked it I probably wasn't cut out for med school.

Totally happy with how everything worked out. At the time in the late 1980s tuition was 650 dollars a year. Highly subsidized by gov't. One of the true bargains of the universe. Total cost (I kept track) including room and board was 5500 dollars a year. Med school (88-92) tuition was 2000 dollars a year for what I think was world class education. Again unbelievably cheap.

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They constantly try to escape from the darkness outside and within
Dreaming of systems so perfect that no one will need to be good T.S. Eliot

God, I hope its that not twice the volume for some of the subjects because I'd not be able to cope 😂

1. Yes
2. No
3. Yes

Let me expand on #2 and 3 a little bit. I had the idea to be an engineer from a pretty young age, I liked tinkering. Growing up on a farm, there were lots of opportunities to tinker and I had zero interest in becoming a farmer. Not sure how many farm kids that grew up in the 80 and 90s took that path, but not many.

I drank too much beer and played too many video games my first couple of years of college. My grades sucked, being in freshman engineering, then 2nd year, I just wasn't getting the money I spent out of the grades I was getting. Let's call this half growing up and make a decision to go to a CC. Now, I had been working at a shop with a small manufacturing business with machine tools, I really liked being able to tinker and was allowed a lot of freedom as I was learning. So, off to CC for programming and tool and die. I think I finished CC with a 3.5 or something similar. The kicker to this, I realized how bad I F*Z#*d up. This wasn't what I wanted from the age of a small child. Parents happy I finished a degree, but deep down I was pissed at myself. Failing at what you have dreamed of as a kid is a dreaded feeling. We will call this completing the grow up phase.

Since I was not happy with where I was, I set myself down a path to correct this problem. I worked full time and went back to college to get what I really wanted. So much so that I took full time loads in 2 semesters and summers classes. I did it in 2.5 years, while working full time. Wow what a time of no sleep, I was only home to sleep. Those 2.5 years were a blur, but I killed it, and made up for the despair that I felt years earlier.

Moving forward 9 years since finishing college, the 8 years I spent with the nuts and bolts side of manufacturing has helped me tremendously. I have a perspective that very few people have that are currently in my position or similar positions. I have also worked my ass off. Now I am in a great position that has heavy influence on how we will manufacture drivetrains of the future in a fortune 50 company.

Now, this is me, other people would have been fine with the staying the first path I created. The trades are a great path for some people, however they were not for me and where I wanted to go in life. Growing up on a farm in the 80/90s was not fun, money was very hard to come by. I knew that in order to position myself differently, that I had to do something different.

Nah, they just want to keep you around.
My MBA took two years, but the first year was 100% undergrad pre-reqs. Amazingly Architecture school doesn't translate to business school ;) . The real program takes 30 credit hours, and full time for grad school is 6 credits. In order to take 15 credits a semester, I had to get approval from the college.

1. Yes
2. Yes
3. Yes

Personal thoughts:
Attendance to different levels of advanced education should be predicated upon your capabilities to succeed. Your capabilities to succeed would be based upon what historical data have shown are good leading indicators of your capabilities to succeed at your sought after advanced education.

Today, we do not do that. Today, we base that capability upon broken models driven by standardized testing for which people can game the system through paying for prep and paying to retake until they get the result they want. If they can afford it.

Next, we also do not base it upon the capabilities to succeed ignoring whether the method to determine that is sound or not. We base it solely upon taking in as many people as possible. This is not to say we shouldn't give opportunities to under privileged individuals. But, those individuals should pass muster for the advanced education.

Where this comes into play is how these days anybody can get loans for whatever they want to do at whatever "invented" online "university" or "trade school" they can find willing to take them.

Next, financial aid is setup for people to game the system. They hide investments in non liquid assets, apply, buy their kids a new BMW after the aid goes thru......and laugh their way to the bank. That shit has to stop.

Next, I saw zero benefit to having vast corporate involvement in our university. I got my coop based on my credentials and interviews. I never had an "labs" or classes that benefited whatsoever from corporate involvement. I saw zero dime of benefit to me as a student other than seeing names on buildings and private studies taking place that probably lined the pockets of said corporations. It's gotten a bit ludicrous. It also, IMO, removes some scientific method credibility from university studies if government and corporations are involved in funding the outcomes.

Lastly, I think the humble community college is too much underfunded and undersought by students. You can make good money with a degree from those without much debt. I'm NOT a fan of all the private ones popping up like mushrooms fleecing America of cash and loans and giving people worthless invented degrees OR going bankrupt or losing their credibility just to have students standing with a huge bill and nothing.

There's my take.

 
Went to University which is what we call it in Canada. College here is technical school.[/quote]
Just to clarify. A University is made up of many College's. The College of Music, The College of Fine Arts, The College of Business, The college of Engineering etc. and some smaller schools are simply College's as they only have one. But Americans and English are a funny combo so we use the 2 words interchangeably to mean a place you go after high school for a 4yr bachelors degree.

(Now I am sure, I am wrong on this definition and someone will correct me) but in Dave that's the meanings.

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Just Triing
Triathlete since 9:56:39 AM EST Aug 20, 2006.
Be kind English is my 2nd language. My primary language is Dave it's a unique evolution of English.

Maybe my thoughts are colored by the humbleness of my undergrad institution. I think we were too small to have colleges. Never heard the term whilst I was there. Total enrollment for Arts Sciences faculty of education everything was 1200. I was top of my class in Biochem But you were either top or bottom considering it was a grad class of 2. The young lady who was number 2 went on to do PhD In biochem.

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They constantly try to escape from the darkness outside and within
Dreaming of systems so perfect that no one will need to be good T.S. Eliot

Curious what your (or others) opinion would be of “lower level” MBA’s, specifically I am thinking of Australian Institute of Business. Not talking for executive VP level but for say technical management roles (plant, facilities or operations management)

It appears to be sort of prevalent in the oil and gas industry in Alberta.

Thanks,
Maurice

1. Yes
2. Yes
3. Yes eventually

I was 28 and had worked in the military for 10 years so they would pay for my education.

I worked a 12 hour shift every Saturday to pay for food etc. Rent and tuition was paid for me.

I did a law degree for 2 years but when I went to do my placement year in chambers I realised the people I was expected to work with were bigger crooks than the criminals I would be defending!

I went straight back to do my final year having only missed a couple of weeks and did a couple of extra modules to turn it into a business and law degree. Best decision I ever made and have had an epic career. I never skipped a class, attended every tutorial, made full use of the fantastic library and submitted every assignment before the deadline. Military discipline I guess.

I took early retirement last year and have been looking at doing a language degree.

1. Yes
2. No
3. Most of the time

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clm
Nashville, TN
https://twitter.com/ironclm | http://ironclm.typepad.com