Whambulance? Really? he stated that on this forum we will give athletes the benefit of the doubt, which, I am personally, for reasons previously stated, not going to do in this case. I wasn’t complaining about anything. The talking to the cat part was humor, not snark. Perhaps you can’t tell the difference?
what i wish you would consider is that this is not a case of “they.” it’s a case of “she.”
Is it, though? Were the East German dopers of the 80s cases of “she” or “they”?
I like to believe the Chinese swimming program is not systematically doping like during the 90s, but that is just my wishful thinking. It may or may not be right. But, if “she” is or “she” is not, it is not “she” that is doping. It is the desire of the Chinese program and their Chinese coaches, not the athlete. If you think a 16yo who was identified as a talent at a young age and plucked from her family to train full-time for the state “program” is individually deciding to dope (or not), and it is a case of “she” and not “they”, well, I think you are off base.
I actually think that, in addition to some other factors, Michael Phelp’s (and Ryan Lochte’s) commercial success out of the pool makes it significantly more likely that a US swimmer would dope for London since it’s clear that there is now the added financial motivation in addition to the age-old motivation to cheat simply for the purpose of winning.
Just look at the US Trials this year. A double-whammy with regards to doping motivation:
-
they televised the trials, making trials performances a much bigger deal with regards to sponsorship and potential income.
-
the Trials were, in the eyes of many, unreasonably close to the Olympics, making an emphasis on a quick recovery (one of the hallmarks of doping) especially important in between trials and games.
Both the trials format and the televising of trials - both with track & field and swimming - both would seem to be powerful motivators to cheat, motivators that exist above and beyond the the motivation to gain an unfair advantage that always exists. Several athletes - Michael Phelps most notably - have really demonstrated the enormous revenue potential of success at the Olympics in modern America. You have one opportunity that comes around every four years to make it big. Not only as an athlete - that’s always been there - but financially as well. That’s powerful motivation to dope.
Gymnastics - any sporting culture that encourages very young girls to totally value their self worth by their performance, which gymnastics seems to more than any other - is another sport where the US seems like it could be rife with abuses.
I, personally, would find it no less surprising to discover Ledecky was doping than to discover it above Ye Shiwen. In some ways, I find it even more likely that a US swimmer would dope. This because with Chinese swimmers, they are easily “replaceable.” It’s like being a Kenyan marathoner (not that I think there’s no doping there). But the basic premise still applies - if you can’t hack it in the Chinese swimming program, you are cut. Sorry. There are countless people waiting to replace you. And no one is going to come to bat on your behalf. But in the US, you have the powerful coaches/clubs that will interject on behalf of “their” athletes. And you have obsessed parents who continually display the total depravity that can become all consuming with “sporting parents.”
However, as you said, it’s really child abuse as opposed to “doping.” That being said, I can just as easily - if not more easily - imagine that abuse occurring in the US as in China. Parents, who are involved in the US, are crazy. TOTALLY insane… Given the choice between a US parent who wants their child to be the next Michael Phelps and the Chinese Communist Party? I’m gonna say that the US parents are the really crazy ones…
Here’s Katie’s time progression in the 800 since last year. Courtesy of USA Swimming website time search option.
Date Time
Stroke Course Age Time Meet Meet Date
800 FR LCM 14 9:02.70 2011 NC WAVE v. CUBU Dual Meet 5/6/2011
800 FR LCM 14 8:59.05 2011 PV LC Distance Meet 6/18/2011
800 FR LCM 14 8:43.50 2011 PV LC Senior Champs 7/14/2011
800 FR LCM 14 8:36.05 2011 Speedo Jr National Champs 8/8/2011
800 FR LCM 14 8:43.53 2011 Speedo Jr National Champs 8/8/2011
800 FR LCM 14 8:30.14 2012 Missouri Grand Prix 2/10/2012
800 FR LCM 15 8:33.48 2012 NCSA Junior National Swim 3/20/2012
800 FR LCM 15 8:25.85 2012 NC Charlotte UltraSwim 5/10/2012
800 FR LCM 15 8:19.78 USA Olympic Team Trials 6/25/2012
800 FR LCM 15 8:27.91 USA Olympic Team Trials 6/25/2012
800 FR LCM 15 8:23.84 Summer Olympic Games 7/28/2012
That’s phenomenal!
It’s like being a Kenyan marathoner (not that I think there’s no doping there).
Taking this off-topic briefly, but this is something that I have long been curious/confused about.
From a physiological beneficial point of view, doping should be as prevalent amongst the best of distance running as it has been amongst the best of cycling. But, dozens of 3rd world Kenyans, Ethiopians, Moroccans come and go and I am not aware of a single EPO positive or other evidence or suspicions. Now, like you, I have to believe it exists, but how can 3rd world East Africa be better at doing it and hiding it than big budget pro cycling? Doesn’t make sense.
this isn’t to say we should also treat the winner of the women’s 800m with suspicion too. it’s to say that we ought not to cast aspersions on either of these swimmers. the chinese swimmer under so much scrutiny is 16 years old. the winner of the 800m, who was arguably not supposed to win this race, decimated the field. she is 15 years old. and american.
Most elite swimmers post big time gains as they break into the elite ranks. They refine or alter strokes, find the right coach(es), perfect training, and mature both mentally and physically. Occasionally the big time gains will be made at an Olympics when the world is focusing on them. I posted Ian Thorpe’s progression in another thread and demonstrated that he did not have a 5 second PB between events or even within one year. He did, however, post some big time gains as he emerged on the scene. He did not do so again.
My concern (and others do not share it) is that Ye Shiwen had already emerged onto the scene and from what I could discover had posted large gains in her PB times. She then, while already in the truly elite ranks, put up a remarkable 5+ second gain in a 400 meter race between events. From what I have found, Ledecky took 5.15 seconds off her Olympic qualifying time to win an 800 meter race. This is remarkable but not necessarily suspicious. What I would like to see is her PB times leading up to the Olympic qualifiers and when her elite training regime began.
So by your analysis Bob Beamon must have been using drugs that were invented in the future when, as a senior athlete he posted remarkable gains between trials and OGs. Any way you slice it their have been athletes that legitimately done remarketable things. Some aren’t legit, sure, but you can’t "analyse "which are which, period…
East African doping suspensions do happen, though at a far lower rate than in the United States or Russia. Pretty nice list here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_doping_cases_in_athletics
In some ways, I find it even more likely that a US swimmer would dope. This because with Chinese swimmers, they are easily “replaceable.” It’s like being a Kenyan marathoner (not that I think there’s no doping there). But the basic premise still applies - if you can’t hack it in the Chinese swimming program, you are cut. Sorry. There are countless people waiting to replace you. And no one is going to come to bat on your behalf.
If your assertion that Chinese swimmers are nothing more than ‘replaceable’ cogs in the Chinese swimming wheel is correct, then I would think that would make them much more likely to succumb to doping pressures from coaches, lest they be replaced by the next swimmer in line.
Thanks for the list. Considering this list includes some 40 years, it’s almost kind of sad how short it is. I’d like to see year and event included to make for some more useful analysis, but nonetheless, this is a handy list to have available. Thanks.
The Chinese federation at the national level actually seems to want to keep things clean- they lost huge face in Perth in 1998, and I suspect another major doping scandal would get their large training groups kicked out of Australia, a current arrangement they seem comfortable with.
The problems they seem to have come from the Provincial level- there’s a tendency to make the regional programs compete heavily against each other at their national championships, and a number (though nowhere close to all) of those clubs are known to employ coaches with a history of doping violations that do not allow them to coach in politer company.
Speculation on my part is that the teenage cicadas that are so common at their nationals that turn in brilliant times, then never compete internationally or generally ever get heard from again are kids who end up in doping situations at the regional centers, get caught at the national level, and then get purged from China’s elite sports programs before they can be caught by external agencies doing something that would cause China Swimming to lose further face.
“Actually for a northern European point of view the USA is a doping/PED heaven.”
really? i thought scandinavia (finland specifically) was the doping/PED heaven. just goes to show how wrong generalizations can be.
…not to mention the geographical terms employed by most Americans
In some ways, I find it even more likely that a US swimmer would dope. This because with Chinese swimmers, they are easily “replaceable.” It’s like being a Kenyan marathoner (not that I think there’s no doping there). But the basic premise still applies - if you can’t hack it in the Chinese swimming program, you are cut. Sorry. There are countless people waiting to replace you. And no one is going to come to bat on your behalf.
If your assertion that Chinese swimmers are nothing more than ‘replaceable’ cogs in the Chinese swimming wheel is correct, then I would think that would make them much more likely to succumb to doping pressures from coaches, lest they be replaced by the next swimmer in line.
Actually, even with a population of 1 billion, China does not have a huge number of people who can swim at world class levels, since the skills needed are highly specific and rare, and drugs only get you so far if the person doesn’t have a lot of talent to start with. Also, if China really does have a systematic doping program, they really aren’t doing a very good job. The East German women totally dominated in their day, which the Chinese girls aren’t doing. The Chinese women have a total of 4 medals so far, 3 golds and 1 bronze, with no relay medals.
FWIW, if you look at Ye’s 1:57.37 split in the 800 relay (which finished 6th), her 50m splits were 26.62, 29.88, 30.90, and 29.97, vs her last 100 free of the 400 IM in 29.75 and 28.93. Think she just really paced herself through the first 300m. Also, she went 4:33 in 2010 and 4:33 in '11 for the 400 IM, then finally dropped 5 sec in '12. Not at all unusual.
I actually think that, in addition to some other factors, Michael Phelp’s (and Ryan Lochte’s) commercial success out of the pool makes it significantly more likely that a US swimmer would dope for London since it’s clear that there is now the added financial motivation in addition to the age-old motivation to cheat simply for the purpose of winning.
Just look at the US Trials this year. A double-whammy with regards to doping motivation:
-
they televised the trials, making trials performances a much bigger deal with regards to sponsorship and potential income.
-
the Trials were, in the eyes of many, unreasonably close to the Olympics, making an emphasis on a quick recovery (one of the hallmarks of doping) especially important in between trials and games.
Both the trials format and the televising of trials - both with track & field and swimming - both would seem to be powerful motivators to cheat, motivators that exist above and beyond the the motivation to gain an unfair advantage that always exists. Several athletes - Michael Phelps most notably - have really demonstrated the enormous revenue potential of success at the Olympics in modern America. You have one opportunity that comes around every four years to make it big. Not only as an athlete - that’s always been there - but financially as well. That’s powerful motivation to dope.
Gymnastics - any sporting culture that encourages very young girls to totally value their self worth by their performance, which gymnastics seems to more than any other - is another sport where the US seems like it could be rife with abuses.
I, personally, would find it no less surprising to discover Ledecky was doping than to discover it above Ye Shiwen. In some ways, I find it even more likely that a US swimmer would dope. This because with Chinese swimmers, they are easily “replaceable.” It’s like being a Kenyan marathoner (not that I think there’s no doping there). But the basic premise still applies - if you can’t hack it in the Chinese swimming program, you are cut. Sorry. There are countless people waiting to replace you. And no one is going to come to bat on your behalf. But in the US, you have the powerful coaches/clubs that will interject on behalf of “their” athletes. And you have obsessed parents who continually display the total depravity that can become all consuming with “sporting parents.”
However, as you said, it’s really child abuse as opposed to “doping.” That being said, I can just as easily - if not more easily - imagine that abuse occurring in the US as in China. Parents, who are involved in the US, are crazy. TOTALLY insane… Given the choice between a US parent who wants their child to be the next Michael Phelps and the Chinese Communist Party? I’m gonna say that the US parents are the really crazy ones…
Are you suggesting that Chinee parents don’t participate in the sport of their children to an ‘insane’ level and therefore aren’t, or couldn’t , be involved in the contribution of the doping of their children?
Twomarks
I think you should show respect to THE country that allows you to carve out a life for yourself, no matter how disrespectful YOU are of its culture and people…
And you should look up the definition for “xenophobia”. After you do that, give me a call, I’m sure you know how to get my number.
Thanks for that. My father is an Italian immigrant who came here as a young adult.
Since it is time for educating others look up ‘egoist’
Evidently your ancestry doesn’t preclude you from being a bigot. The government of the USA allows me to be here, the IRS collects my taxes every year, so I really don’t give a ff of what you think.
No matter how disrespectful a person is to the United States, that person is able to be here.
Your bigotry comment aside, your response proves my point. The government of the USA allows me to be here, the IRS collects my taxes every year, so I really don’t give a ff of what you think.
Exactly. Why the harshness of your posts all the time? I’ve never understood. I’ll save you the time “I really don’t give a ff of what you think.”
One thing to note in the discussion is that Ledecky’s 13-14 1000 yard free national age group record from last fall was a 9:29. While time conversion tools aren’t 100% accurate, the more reliable ones ballpark that out to a 8:23 LCM, so the time drop curve isn’t quite as steep in 2012 as it would be if you just looked at LCM.
“not to mention the geographical terms employed by most Americans”
let me take this opportunity to redress a grievous wrong, and replace “scandinavian” countries with “nordic” countries.
the point remains, and i will plant my flag in the ground and coin this the slowman rule unless someone else has already claimed it: any group or country or clan that claims its athletes are, by special righteousness, immune from a sub-culture of PEDs will eventually and inevitably be proved wrong.