“not to mention the geographical terms employed by most Americans”
let me take this opportunity to redress a grievous wrong, and replace “scandinavian” countries with “nordic” countries.
the point remains, and i will plant my flag in the ground and coin this the slowman rule unless someone else has already claimed it: any group or country or clan that claims its athletes are, by special righteousness, immune from a sub-culture of PEDs will eventually and inevitably be proved wrong.
What about Hobbits? They smoke a bit but if it’s okay for Phelps then it must be okay for those cute little guys…
Now that Gollum guy, on the other hand, is a total doper
jim ryun set an american record in the mile as a high schooler. he is the only person ever to have done that. he is still the only person ever to have run a sub-4-minute mile in a high school only competition (3:58). he qualified for the olympic trials as a junior in HS. as a freshman in college, he set world records in both the mile and the half-mile.
no way all that happens today without rampant doping accusations.
every now and then you just have really great athletes pop up. katie ledecky is one such athlete. a 16-year-old chinese girl may be another. i find it shameful, disgraceful and ignorant that the american press seems only interested in the question of whether that girl is on drugs. beyond shameful.
i find it shameful, disgraceful and ignorant that the american press seems only interested in the question of whether that girl is on drugs. beyond shameful.
Amen! Lets first acknowledge their talent and hard work (of course doing the best drug screening available) before setting accusations and discriminations.
Trying to explain Chinese culture to western people takes a great deal of time and patience…Most of the time what you are trying to say falls on deaf ears…
Things that amazes me the most is actually the timing of events. Chinese gal smokes the competition, then the president of the USA assoc of swim coaches is the first going public slinging shit about it, and all the media idiots, starting with the costas guy who is just sickening to watch, echoe ad infinitum the comments. Now there’s the USA track team and the USA teen swimmer case which are pretty much a carbon copy of the chinese case of 2 days ago. All of a sudden comments about “innocence until proven guilty” propagate like virus all over the media.
This is a great country, and we pride ourselves in a state of law that works (at least apparently) better than in other places. But as a country, apparently that sense of pride is allowed to stretch a little bit too much in foreign affairs and we’re actually turning into big/loud mouths (at least is the widespread impression that we give to the foreign community).
If “innocence until proven guilt” is actually so deep in our roots, why is a USA commentator/journalist/official/whatever the first one in going public casting doubt and creating chaos about other countries athletes and when it’s time to see in our own backyard then a call for our “principles of equality and innocence until proven guilt” is rampant?
It’s the same reason there was all kinds of outrage that Jordan Weiber couldn’t compete in the women’s all-around due to the two competitors per nation rule, but no outrage that the same thing happened to 3 or 4 of the men’s competitors who weren’t American. There is a culture, perpetuated in the media, that we somehow are entitled to never lose, to never have a judgement go against us, to always get the benefit of the doubt
Having watched the first week of the Olympics overseas, and the past few days back home, there’s a pretty sad difference between the coverages.
I’m not sure I really buy into the idea of “Chinese” or “Western” culture. Having grown up (until I was 9) in Japan, I’d be hard pressed to described “Japanese culture.” Do you want to know about the incredible culture of saving, hard work, and discipline? Or the repression of emotions, often unreasonable deference to seniority, and the overwhelming importance of a polished facade?
Likewise, my mother has worked with Chinese students for over 20 years as a secondary school consultant; she helps students place in US secondary schools, and she works with many Chinese families. Ask her about “Chinese culture.” Do you want to talk about the fraudulent essays that she gets that were clearly written by someone else? Or the proficiency in math and music that comes from a massive commitment to practice, a longer school year, etc.
They are ALL aspects of culture. And human nature.
It’s interesting that some people read an article like the one I posted (or the one by Ye Shiwen’s coach) and see the powerful motivation to “work hard.” Others see a powerful motivation to cheat. It shouldn’t surprise anyone that the same motivation to bust one’s ass day after day after day is often the same motivation that leads some athletes to cheat.
My grandfather, RIP, is about as powerful an example of “Western culture” as I can think of. He was the first person in his family to go to college. He was the oldest son in a big family and bore a lot of responsibility for his siblings. He was one of TWO graduates in his class to get a job (he graduated during the height of the Great Depression). He got a job at GE, where he worked his entire life until he retired. He built a good life and sent his two kids (my mom and my uncle) to college. And his savings - almost entirely investments in GE; he believed in the company that believed in him - continues to provide help for my family. My mother tries to explain this sort of “bootstrapping” to a lot of the Chinese families (most of whom are very affluent, as you’d expect from families who can afford to send their kids to US boarding schools) and gets a lot of blank stares. There are plenty of Chinese kids - trust me, I’ve met them - for whom Michael Phelp’s commitment and dedication would be unfathomable…
Not quite sure why you went on the defensive about work ethic but that is your take on my comment. I will tell you from being born and raised in Hong Kong and then spending years in and out of China from the '60s through to the present day I know there is a massive difference between Chinese and Western cultures.That is not to say all people in those cultures these days live what you would call the stereotypical cultural exsistance but it is very much a part of who they are.
My post was more to the point of the acceptance of Chinese families that they can in fact “lose” their children to the State for the greater good of the family and many cases, rarely see their children again.Westerners find it hard to deal with the stoic acceptance of these situations which as I have said are quite normal,especially in rural China.
I would suggest that one needs to immerse themselves in a culture to be able to see the differences that fleeting visits or narrow social/business experiences rarely provide.
Didn’t meant it a defensive way. Just saying that “culture” is a tricky thing to define, because it’s rarely as universal as people want to have you believe, both the good and the bad.
For example, I think there are plenty of American families who have had to be pretty stoic about losing their children to the state - for some wars that have turned out to be quite senseless (as well as some that have turned out to be quite sensible).
Now, certainly, it’s certainly much, MUCH more common and regular in China NOW, because rural families have to send their kids to the cities to find work. No doubt. I will say that, generally, the idea of sacrifice as necessary is much more accepted in China than it is in the USA. Sadly.
“Socialism never took root in America because the poor see themselves not as an exploited proletariat but as temporarily embarrassed millionaires.” ― John Steinbeck
I really do not think you understand what I mean when I am talking about doping and culture. For me a culture against doping consist of a constantly push from the sanctions bodies in a country to fight doping, lots of out of competition tests and constantly work on keeping and/or creating an attitude against doping.
I do not think NCAA, NHL, NFL, MLB, NBA and the US Olympic movements are really working hard against doping. The same goes for HS.
Will you find dopers in every country, yes. But I am talking about the fight against doping.
If I am not totally wrong, you can test positive in the Olympics for PED but still keep doing your sport in NCAA. (yes it has happen). I think that send a signal to the athletes that doping is partially ok.
“I really do not think you understand what I mean when I am talking about doping and culture. For me a culture against doping consist of a constantly push from the sanctions bodies in a country to fight doping, lots of out of competition tests and constantly work on keeping and/or creating an attitude against doping.”
yeah. that’s exactly what we thought we were doing here in america.
jim ryun set an american record in the mile as a high schooler. he is the only person ever to have done that. he is still the only person ever to have run a sub-4-minute mile in a high school only competition (3:58). he qualified for the olympic trials as a junior in HS. as a freshman in college, he set world records in both the mile and the half-mile.
**no way all that happens today without rampant doping accusations. **
I’m with you that it is a pity that incredible performances come part and parcel with doping accusations. But, for what Ryun did to “happen today” would take a 3:46 mile for a high schooler or 3:43 / 1:40 for a college freshman. And, yup, that would raise some eyebrows and aspersions for sure, even if it came from an 18yo Kenyan let alone an American or European or Chinese.
History has shown PED use to exist that the top levels of swimming, T&F, and cycling. So, it just comes with the territory that extraordinary performances are going to meet with some skepticism. Hopefully that skepticism is off base and quickly dies off when no evidence appears to back it up (see Wiggins, Wellington, Ye, Sun Wang, Ledecky). It’s too bad, but I don’t think there’s anything to be done about it except for years of proven clean sport to pass and take the edge off the assumption that extraordinary performances just may have been assisted.
"…I will say that, generally, the idea of sacrifice as necessary is much more accepted in China than it is in the USA. Sadly. "
Main cultural difference: Individualism vs Collectivism
In both you have to work hard, but the consequences of failure (such as cheating) could be viewd differently.
“It is strangely absurd to suppose that a million of human beings, collected together, are not under the same moral laws which bind each of them separately.” – Thomas Jefferson
not the same thing. it was HS only runners (or HS graduates, to be more precise), in a non-HS race. there are two sets of records, and one is “interscholastic”, and these times are confined to what you do in the course of a HS season.
Interesting article in today’s Sunday paper in Brisbane about Chinese swimmers being coached in Oz. Backs up what some people are saying about work ethic. Interesting that there’s been a few ex Olympic swimmers and coaches saying Australia’s lack of success in the pool is due to this generation’s poor work ethic.
Interesting article in today’s Sunday paper in Brisbane about Chinese swimmers being coached in Oz. Backs up what some people are saying about work ethic. Interesting that there’s been a few ex Olympic swimmers and coaches saying Australia’s lack of success in the pool is due to this generation’s poor work ethic.