Harris knows that the President does not control stuff like this but I doubt Trump does.
Who knew there were so many “Coastal Elites” in Detroit?
And Arizona?
It looks like enthusiasm for the Dem ticket is up a little.
Yup, and it is showing in the polls. People are not buying the lie that Harris-Walz will be disastrous for the economy.
Kamala Harris is more trusted than Donald Trump on the US economy (ft.com)
I’d like to hear from the Trump and undecided voters on this (but not only them, D voters welcome to give their thoughts on these questions as well). Trump is a known quantity at this point, but the country is largely just getting to know the other three. Specifically in this thread I’d like to learn about your perspective on their records and vision for America and why you think that, as bad as you’re willing to admit Trump is, Harris and Walz will be worse. Maybe a structured conversation would be a helpful way to start:
I do not think that this upcoming election that is a ‘good policy’ / ‘bad policy’ choice.
I think it is instead a ‘sanity’ / ‘insanity’ choice.
And it is a ‘democracy’ / ‘end of democracy as we know it’ choice.
So, those questions that you ask, right now they are almost irrelevant.
When people tell you what they will do, we should believe them
I’d like to hear from the Trump and undecided voters on this (but not only them, D voters welcome to give their thoughts on these questions as well). Trump is a known quantity at this point, but the country is largely just getting to know the other three. Specifically in this thread I’d like to learn about your perspective on their records and vision for America and why you think that, as bad as you’re willing to admit Trump is, Harris and Walz will be worse. Maybe a structured conversation would be a helpful way to start:
Not what you started the thread for, but since it’s headed off in the predictable direction, I’d just say that, no matter your views on what we expect to see from a Harris/Walz platform, that administration would not be a “disaster” for the country. Hardly any administration, right or left, is a disaster for the country. That’s the strength of our system as it’s generally been executed over the decades. Any administration that falls within the left and right boundaries of normality has to contend with Congress and courts and those factors generally prevent disaster. An administration might steer us in a direction some don’t like, but the country will remain relatively healthy and keep marching forward, because the extremes are avoided.
I view a Harris/Walz administration as fitting well within the “normal” range of options. Whether you think VP Harris was or wasn’t an extreme liberal on some issue or another, she will be largely bound by norms and rules, and any agenda she pushes will be countered as the American people see fit by the people they elect to Congress.
Actual “disaster” really only happens if we get someone well outside the general boundaries of a normal administration, or if significant external factors play (worldwide recession/depression, world war, etc).
Is there any platform that Harris could run on that would persuade you to vote for her?
Is there anything Trump could do to lose your vote for him?
Yes and yes
But it would have to be significant and I’m not sure I could describe what either would look like.
How about you? Same question
Given Trump’s history of:
…What could he possibly do to lose your vote?
For me, yes and yes. I plan to vote for Harris (sanity), and yes, Trump has lost my vote.
…What could he possibly do to lose your vote?
Not picking on Tyler, but I’m not sure there is anything at this point, because the things that might be deal breakers–or I hope would be–he can’t do until he’s in power again, and by then, it’s too late.
He will derail every legitimate pending legal case against him. He will pardon J6 offenders and whitewash the entire event and the reasons for it. He will put the country into crisis if he loses by repeating the stolen election lie, one that his voters here know is a dangerous and consequential lie. His voters will accept all of that as a cost of doing business with Trump. He will continue to brazenly lie as easily as he breathes, enrich himself and his family through the same means as previously, hire solely on the qualification of personal loyalty and surround himself with the worst people we’ve seen in politics in our lifetimes. Again, his voters know this. Every Republican President and nominee in our lifetimes knows this and refuses to endorse him. His own VP acknowledged explicitly that Trump is lying about election, asked him to put his personal ambition above the Constitution and he will do it again without second thought.
Everyone knows this. They just don’t care about it because liberals are somehow worse. So I guess what I’m asking is, from their perspective, what in their minds can possibly be worse than* that *and what in Harris’ and Walz’ record convinces them of it.
Harris has shown little evidence that she can actually govern or lead.
why I’d rather have a governor than a senator.
But i’d rather have a senator than a reality tv star, so here we are…
…What could he possibly do to lose your vote?
Not picking on Tyler, but I’m not sure there is anything at this point, because the things that might be deal breakers–or I hope would be–he can’t do until he’s in power again, and by then, it’s too late.
He will derail every legitimate pending legal case against him. He will pardon J6 offenders and whitewash the entire event and the reasons for it. He will put the country into crisis if he loses by repeating the stolen election lie, one that his voters here know is a dangerous and consequential lie. His voters will accept all of that as a cost of doing business with Trump. He will continue to brazenly lie as easily as he breathes, enrich himself and his family through the same means as previously, hire solely on the qualification of personal loyalty and surround himself with the worst people we’ve seen in politics in our lifetimes. Again, his voters know this. Every Republican President and nominee in our lifetimes knows this and refuses to endorse him. His own VP acknowledged explicitly that Trump is lying about election, asked him to put his personal ambition above the Constitution and he will do it again without second thought.
Everyone knows this. They just don’t care about it because liberals are somehow worse. So I guess what I’m asking is, from their perspective, what in their minds can possibly be worse than* that *and what in Harris’ and Walz’ record convinces them of it.
You won’t get a sensible answer. Tyler claims that yes, there is something Trump could do to lose his vote, but he won’t attempt to articulate it. Maybe if Trump shot someone on 5th Avenue? Nah, there would be a reason why he should still vote for him. It was obviously self defense! The fact is, in saying there is something Harris could do to attract his vote, and there is something Trump could do to lose it, he is pretending that he thinks rationally about these things. But the reality is - as everyone knows - his vote for Trump is a lock no matter what.
Same with Windy. He may not vote for Trump, but there is no world in which he votes for Harris. He would leave no stone unturned to find a reason not to vote for her, because as he said himself, he “despises the left.â€
Careful, Windywave will call you an imbecile if you quote back what he says about liberals or the left.
Careful, Windywave will call you an imbecile if you quote back what he says about liberals or the left.
Hope you’re doing well. How was the beach ??
It was good! Didn’t get any sand anywhere it shouldn’t be. Had a few cocktails and hung with friends.
…What could he possibly do to lose your vote?
Not picking on Tyler, but I’m not sure there is anything at this point, because the things that might be deal breakers–or I hope would be–he can’t do until he’s in power again, and by then, it’s too late.
He will derail every legitimate pending legal case against him. He will pardon J6 offenders and whitewash the entire event and the reasons for it. He will put the country into crisis if he loses by repeating the stolen election lie, one that his voters here know is a dangerous and consequential lie. His voters will accept all of that as a cost of doing business with Trump. He will continue to brazenly lie as easily as he breathes, enrich himself and his family through the same means as previously, hire solely on the qualification of personal loyalty and surround himself with the worst people we’ve seen in politics in our lifetimes. Again, his voters know this. Every Republican President and nominee in our lifetimes knows this and refuses to endorse him. His own VP acknowledged explicitly that Trump is lying about election, asked him to put his personal ambition above the Constitution and he will do it again without second thought.
Everyone knows this. They just don’t care about it because liberals are somehow worse. So I guess what I’m asking is, from their perspective, what in their minds can possibly be worse than* that *and what in Harris’ and Walz’ record convinces them of it.
Thanks for not picking on me……
If I could have provided a more specific scenario of what Harris or Trump could or couldn’t do right now to change my vote I would. But I also get KS is just trying to “own†the situation so my response is in part due to who I am responding to. I should be smarter and just not respond (to ks) at all
Complaining about Harris crowds has not changed my vote
Copying “no tax on tips†has not changed my vote
So at least we can mark those two off the list.
But it is nice to start to see policy being developed on the Harris side
It was good! Didn’t get any sand anywhere it shouldn’t be. Had a few cocktails and hung with friends.
Always a bonus re sand on beach day !!
Appreciate the response. For future reference I think it helps to use deliberate and precise language.
“Complaining about Harris crowds has not changed my voteâ€
Trump didn’t “complain†about her crowd; he either lied, or he was duped by an easily debunked conspiracy. I don’t personally care which one you choose to believe but I do care that in this thread that we don’t intentionally water down the language of facts as to be completely devoid of meaning. I think you will find people more receptive to your words if they aren’t perceived as deflection and spin.
Harris knows that the President does not control stuff like this but I doubt Trump does.
Who knew there were so many “Coastal Elites” in Detroit?
And Arizona?
It looks like enthusiasm for the Dem ticket is up a little.
Yup, and it is showing in the polls. People are not buying the lie that Harris-Walz will be disastrous for the economy.
Kamala Harris is more trusted than Donald Trump on the US economy (ft.com)
From Nate Silver. This is probably just more AI.
Appreciate the response. For future reference I think it helps to use deliberate and precise language.
“Complaining about Harris crowds has not changed my voteâ€
Trump didn’t “complain†about her crowd; he either lied, or he was duped by an easily debunked conspiracy. I don’t personally care which one you choose to believe but I do care that in this thread that we don’t intentionally water down the language of facts as to be completely devoid of meaning. I think you will find people more receptive to your words if they aren’t perceived as deflection and spin.
I’m not trying to sugar coat things
Lying about Harris crowd does not change my vote. Being duped does not either
Was copying “no tax on tips†acceptable (to you)?
Do you feel Walz position relative to his military service is being watered down by some here? Because he did in fact lie about it (whether that’s a big deal or not).
Should I expect to see you making these sorts of judgements in both directions here? Or is this just until you and I directly get straightened out. Because it seems to me there is a lot of deflection and spin that goes on here……. I don’t really feel the need to spin Trump. Anybody who hasn’t drawn a trump conclusion in life isn’t paying attention
As I said things like lying/being duped etc don’t really move the needle (for me). I can’t express what would. But it’s not hitler rapist insurrectionist liar duped etc etc
We were lied to for years by the Biden admin pretty much across the board. Including Harris lying about his mental abilities.
Somebody’s going to have to do better than crowd size. For me.
Agree with pretty much everything.
I commend you for starting the conversation. And I think there is a conversation to be had now and when we get more specifics. I’ll try to contribute more then
Late to the party. Just got home from a car trip home to NVA from Denver via Mt Rushmore, Badlands and a lot of corn,soy and wheat fields continuing down the not so well traveled roads spotted with once thriving, but now mostly shuttered small towns of fly over country.
Thanks to you, windy and TMI for stepping forward and providing some explanation to concerns with the dem ticket.
And big thanks for sphere kicking it off and then putting some flesh on the bone that is the ideological balance pick of Wals.
I’ll offer my two cents. Although I am not the targeted audience, and since slowguy already put the hammer down on blep for highlighting the other guy as rationale for his position, I’ll pass on commenting that way.
If the VP pick is more than just swinging for the swing voters to come over to their way, and Harris runs to the middle to join her teammate, then all is good.
If her bent is to govern a bit more progressively, well, I am fairly certain the election of 2028 can make for a correction. And hopefully the other guy will have passed on to his seat in Hell by then.
Agree with pretty much everything.
I commend you for starting the conversation. And I think there is a conversation to be had now and when we get more specifics. I’ll try to contribute more then
Late to the party. Just got home from a car trip home to NVA from Denver via Mt Rushmore, Badlands and a lot of corn,soy and wheat fields continuing down the not so well traveled roads spotted with once thriving, but now mostly shuttered small towns of fly over country.
Thanks to you, windy and TMI for stepping forward and providing some explanation to concerns with the dem ticket.
And big thanks for sphere kicking it off and then putting some flesh on the bone that is the ideological balance pick of Wals.
I’ll offer my two cents. Although I am not the targeted audience, and since slowguy already put the hammer down on blep for highlighting the other guy as rationale for his position, I’ll pass on commenting that way.
If the VP pick is more than just swinging for the swing voters to come over to their way, and Harris runs to the middle to join her teammate, then all is good.
If her bent is to govern a bit more progressively, well, I am fairly certain the election of 2028 can make for a correction. And hopefully the other guy will have passed on to his seat in Hell by then.
I don’t know, Trump/Carlson 2028 sounds pretty great!!
MAGAAA
If the VP pick is more than just swinging for the swing voters to come over to their way, and Harris runs to the middle to join her teammate, then all is good. I don’t think that is the case, but “moderate” seems to be relative.
Agree with pretty much everything.
I commend you for starting the conversation. And I think there is a conversation to be had now and when we get more specifics. I’ll try to contribute more then
Late to the party. Just got home from a car trip home to NVA from Denver via Mt Rushmore, Badlands and a lot of corn,soy and wheat fields continuing down the not so well traveled roads spotted with once thriving, but now mostly shuttered small towns of fly over country.
Thanks to you, windy and TMI for stepping forward and providing some explanation to concerns with the dem ticket.
And big thanks for sphere kicking it off and then putting some flesh on the bone that is the ideological balance pick of Wals.
I’ll offer my two cents. Although I am not the targeted audience, and since slowguy already put the hammer down on blep for highlighting the other guy as rationale for his position, I’ll pass on commenting that way.
If the VP pick is more than just swinging for the swing voters to come over to their way, and Harris runs to the middle to join her teammate, then all is good.
If her bent is to govern a bit more progressively, well, I am fairly certain the election of 2028 can make for a correction. And hopefully the other guy will have passed on to his seat in Hell by then.
I don’t know, Trump/Carlson 2028 sounds pretty great!!
MAGAAA
Do you mean Carlson/Trump Jnr?
Horrifying but plausible.
Appreciate the response. For future reference I think it helps to use deliberate and precise language.
“Complaining about Harris crowds has not changed my voteâ€
Trump didn’t “complain†about her crowd; he either lied, or he was duped by an easily debunked conspiracy. I don’t personally care which one you choose to believe but I do care that in this thread that we don’t intentionally water down the language of facts as to be completely devoid of meaning. I think you will find people more receptive to your words if they aren’t perceived as deflection and spin.
I’m not trying to sugar coat things
Lying about Harris crowd does not change my vote. Being duped does not either
Was copying “no tax on tips†acceptable (to you)?
Do you feel Walz position relative to his military service is being watered down by some here? Because he did in fact lie about it (whether that’s a big deal or not).
Should I expect to see you making these sorts of judgements in both directions here? Or is this just until you and I directly get straightened out. Because it seems to me there is a lot of deflection and spin that goes on here……. I don’t really feel the need to spin Trump. Anybody who hasn’t drawn a trump conclusion in life isn’t paying attention
As I said things like lying/being duped etc don’t really move the needle (for me). I can’t express what would. But it’s not hitler rapist insurrectionist liar duped etc etc
We were lied to for years by the Biden admin pretty much across the board. Including Harris lying about his mental abilities.
Somebody’s going to have to do better than crowd size. For me.
The no tax on tips which Trump said two months ago is a good idea so if your platform is totally scripted like team Biden then you roll with even though it’s not yours.
Trump also said no tax on social security that would be huge.
As far as Tim goes he needs to STOP saying he retired as CSM he retired as Sergeant Major, and never set foot in a combat zone.