Why Harris-Walz would be a disaster for the country

I’d like to hear from the Trump and undecided voters on this (but not only them, D voters welcome to give their thoughts on these questions as well). Trump is a known quantity at this point, but the country is largely just getting to know the other three. Specifically in this thread I’d like to learn about your perspective on their records and vision for America and why you think that, as bad as you’re willing to admit Trump is, Harris and Walz will be worse. Maybe a structured conversation would be a helpful way to start:

  1. By today’s standard do you see them as moderate/centrists, or far left extremists within their party?
  2. Will they govern to the middle (see: Obama, Biden) or left of D’s political center?
  3. Why do you believe this—what in their legislative/executive/prosecutorial history or statements makes you believe this?
  4. What specifically will they do, or not do, that Trump will/won’t, that will be disastrous for the country?
  5. Are there any Democrats of national prominence you would vote for over Trump? IOW, is this a Harris-Walz problem or a Democrat problem generally for you?

I’d like this to be a productive and educational exercise, so sincerity rather than sarcasm would be helpful. We don’t need to rehash Trump-Vance issues here, but fact checking and drawing contrast on positions and statements certainly benefits the conversation.

I’d like to hear from the Trump and undecided voters on this one, but not only them (D voters welcome to give their thoughts on these questions as well). Trump is a known quantity at this point, but the country is largely just getting to know the other three. Specifically in this thread I’d like to learn about your perspective on their records and vision for America and why you think that as bad as you’re willing to admit Trump is, Harris and Walz are worse. Maybe a structured conversation would be a helpful way to start:

  1. By today’s standard do you see them as moderate/centrists, or far left extremists within their party? Further Left than i would be comfortable voting for
  2. Will they govern to the middle (see: Obama, Biden) or left of D’s political center? Depends on the Election…The Squad is losing primaries, Carville advises abandoning the Progressives, Left wing nut jobs are losing local elections
  3. Why do you believe this—what in their legislative/executive/prosecutorial history or statements makes you believe this? Politicians do whatever is necessary to stay in power
  4. Are there any Democrats of national prominence you would vote for over Trump? IOW, is this a Harris-Walz problem or a Democrat problem generally for you? Your question is flawed in that it assumes I would vote for Trump. I think the Democrats have swung too far left. I pose the question to you, the blue collar guys you know, guys in the trades, do they vote Democrat anymore? None i know do. Democrats used to be their party. The party of the working class. I would say that’s not the case anymore. And don’t get me statrted on the shitshow that is the GOP

I’d like this to be a productive and educational exercise, so sincerity rather than sarcasm would be helpful. That will be hard if fuckleberry and friends start posting.

See Bold

I live in a rural area and work in a white collar/professional environment in the DC metro area. So I don’t know many blue collar people generally, but of those I do, none vote Democrat.

In my view it’s a matter of branding and identity–liberals are seen as soft God-hating atheist commies and Republicans aren’t. Blue collar guys don’t identify with that. But I don’t see how the GOP has been working for them over the last four decades.

So, what about Harris and Walz records or positions exemplify why that is–how are they bad for the working class? What is Trump delivering for them that Harris-Walz don’t?

I live in a rural area and work in a white collar/professional environment in the DC metro area. So I don’t know many blue collar people generally, but of those I do, none vote Democrat.

Yeah it is not like I am around a ton, but that is exactly it. Zero and the interesting thing is for the old ones they were die hard machine democrats until I would say the last 20 years. The still love Kennedy

In my view it’s a matter of branding and identity–liberals are seen as soft God-hating atheist commies and Republicans aren’t. Blue collar guys don’t identify with that. But I don’t see how the GOP has been working for them over the last four decades.

**The GOP may not be working for them, but they are not actively working against them in their minds, which isn’t unfair. How many times on here have the smug assholes rolled out, the more education you have the more you vote Democrat? **

So far what you’re telling me is that blue collar workers aren’t actually better off with the GOP, they’re just more comfortable identifying with them.

So back to the Harris Walz record. How are they bad for the working class? Have they hurt them previously or are they proposing policies that will?

Windy’s inability to answer the question and explain why Harris-Walz will be a disaster for the country says a lot.

Trump said this last night and posted the clip this morning:

As Minnesota’s governor, Tim Walz let rioters and looters burn down Minneapolis while his wife opened the windows to enjoy the smell of the fires…

https://x.com/trumpdailyposts/status/1822132860133974385?s=46&t=f4MKbkOzpNU_o_bXlnvUlQ

This is a lie. Trump called Gov. Walz to praise his handling of the riots.

https://x.com/tjyella/status/1822143322086953147?s=46&t=f4MKbkOzpNU_o_bXlnvUlQ

So far what you’re telling me is that blue collar workers aren’t actually better off with the GOP, they’re just more comfortable identifying with them.

My parents are solidly old school southern Democrats that somehow never jumped ship to the Republicans. Their basic viewpoint is that Democrats look out for the working class person while Republicans are all about helping the rich. My dad was a barber who owned his own business, and has retired pretty comfortably, plenty of money to do whatever they want.

Here are the Governor’s listed signature accomplishments during his tenure in Minnesota. Devil is always in the details but can you tell me which of these would contribute to the destruction of our United States, or would reinforce blue collar worker voter distrust?

signed a $2.3 billion education budget into law – the single-largest investment in public education in state history. Governor Walz and Lieutenant Governor Flanagan also provided Minnesota students free breakfast and lunch at school, created thousands of new pre-k seats, expanded access to mental health resources for students, and made significant investments to improve child literacy.

established ironclad reproductive freedom, protections for Trans individuals, and gender-affirming care as fundamental rights in Minnesota. Governor Walz also banned the cruel, outdated practice of “conversion therapy” and ended book bans based on ideology.

banned the use of hand-held cell phones while driving and raised the age to purchase tobacco to 21. The Governor provided $300 million for public safety needs across the state to combat crime and broke ground on a new, centralized Minnesota State Patrol headquarters. Governor Walz took meaningful action to protect communities from gun violence, signing bills establishing a red flag law, expanding background checks, increasing criminal penalties for straw purchasing guns, and banning deadly binary trigger guns.

established paid leave, ensured paid sick days, banned non-compete agreements, and increased protections for workers in Amazon warehouses, construction sites, hospitals, nursing homes, and public schools.

signed the largest infrastructure bill in Minnesota’s history into law to rebuild roads and bridges, repair fire stations and water treatment plants, and upgrade veterans’ homes, fish hatcheries, and flood mitigation systems – all while creating good-paying union jobs for Minnesotans. Provided funding to remove and replace lead pipes across the state.

cut taxes with every one of his budgets. Governor Walz has delivered a variety of rebate checks up to $1,300 to seniors, students, workers, and middle-class families. He also lowered taxes for small businesses and fully exempted state taxes on social security for more than three quarters of seniors.

invested millions in workforce development to connect Minnesotans to high-growth, high-demand career fields like manufacturing, education, and public safety. To lower costs and grow Minnesota’s workforce, Governor Walz and Lieutenant Governor Flanagan provided free college for students with a family income under $80,000. They also invested over $1 billion in child care and early learning opportunities.

signed into law the largest expansion of voting rights in Minnesota in the last half century, restoring voting rights for over 55,000 formerly incarcerated people in Minnesota, establishing automatic voter registration, creating a permanent absentee voting status, and pre-registering 16- and 17-year-olds to vote. Governor Walz also signed the Minnesota Voting Rights Act into law – prohibiting standards that would deny or limit any citizen’s right to vote based on their race, color, or language.

took new action to significantly lower the cost of prescription drugs for seniors and middle-class families. They also enacted the Alec Smith Insulin Affordability Act to provide Minnesotans with emergency assistance and hold insulin manufacturers accountable.

signed a bipartisan bill to lead Minnesota to 100% clean electricity by 2040 all while creating good-paying jobs for Minnesotans. In 2023 alone, he signed over 40 climate initiatives into law – including provisions banning PFAS “forever chemicals,” expanding Minnesota’s electric vehicle infrastructure, and providing a tax credit for electric vehicle purchases. And in 2024, he cut red tape for clean energy projects to put a downpayment on rapid clean energy job growth.

established a nation-leading child tax credit to cut child poverty in Minnesota by up to one-third.

signed a historic $1 billion investment in housing into law – building a foundation for safety, stability, and economic growth across the state; also took new action to protect tenants’ rights.

legalized adult-use cannabis and expunged nonviolent cannabis convictions in Minnesota.

helped more Minnesotans recover from medical debt – banning medical debt from impacting credit scores, preventing medical providers from withholding medically necessary care due to unpaid debt, and eliminating automatic transfers of medical debt to a patient’s spouse; also signed a bill into law banning hidden junk fees and cracking down on fraudulent ticket sales.

signed historic, bipartisan elder abuse legislation to regulate assisted-living centers for the first time. He also allocated $173 million in direct funding for 340 nursing homes across the state.

I don’t love every item here but on the whole, I see a lot to like. How about you?

I’m neither a Trump voter nor undecided, but know some of them. (Pardon the clunky way I’m posting this; doing it from my phone).

  1. By today’s standard do you see them as moderate/centrists, or far left extremists within their party?

<<Thst doesn’t seem to be a meaningful distinction right now. If they identify as Dems who hold positions that are generally considered aligned with Dems, it’s “extreme”. It’s a binary, tribal perspective.>>

  1. Will they govern to the middle (see: Obama, Biden) or left of D’s political center?

<<See above. They would laugh you out of the room at the notion that Biden or Obama ‘governed to the middle’>>

  1. Why do you believe this—what in their legislative/executive/prosecutorial history or statements makes you believe this?

<<Belief that Harris was “responsible for the border” and the border was largely in crisis during the Biden administration. Some Trumpist people I know believe that was intentional, not just incompetence/intractable problem.

Harris was a prosecutor/AG in crazy lefty California, which we all know is filled with crazy druggies, homeless, and restrictive gun laws. She’ll make the country like the disaster that CA has become. (So goes the argument.)

Walz as governor of MN legalized pot, guaranteed abortion rights and signed gun control laws the minute he had a legislature that allowed him to do so. He passed police reform after George Floyd, which gets equates with “soft on crime/hard on cops”>>

  1. What specifically will they do, or not do, that Trump will/won’t, that will be disastrous for the country?

<<See previous answer. Trumpy people I know worry the border will continue to be porous. Gun control and access to abortion laws will be passed/pushed for. The feds will continue with perceived handouts like student debt relief, thst blue collar folks who member went to college don’t get any benefit from. They will keep us financially and politically entrenched in a foreign war in Ukraine that “isn’t our business”. They will try to dilute the power/direction of the current conservative Supreme Court, which has been doing things the conservatives like on abortion, gun control and power of the administrative state. >>

  1. Are there any Democrats of national prominence you would vote for over Trump?

<>

IOW, is this a Harris-Walz problem or a Democrat problem generally for you?

<<mostly tribal, anti-Dem in general. Harris’ connection to the Biden administration is seen as a taint, not as useful prior experience.>>

I think that’s a fair assessment overall.

I hadn’t read up on his post-Floyd initiatives. This is from the first article that came up:

In terms of Walz’s view on safety and policing, Ellison said Walz was not entirely progressive on major components, but was “reasonable”. Following Floyd’s murder, Walz signed a number of bipartisan police reforms, including a ban on certain types of chokeholds and a ban on “warrior style” police training, which emphasizes the use of force. He also signed a ban of certain police restraints in schools, but later repealed the mandate following outcry from some police officers.

“His views aren’t scary. He’s not against accountability. He’s not against reform. He’s not for reallocation of funding, either,” Ellison said. “So I would count his views as moderate.”

Tim Walz’s handling of George Floyd’s killing by police comes back into view | Tim Walz | The Guardian

On the border issue, Trump and his allies are hellbent on labeling her “Border Czar” which, it should go without saying, isn’t accurate. But she did have responsibilities pertaining to the border, many of which she is claiming as an asset to her campaign (numbers down over the last six months from the countries with which she was engaged, IIRC), and she has made an explicit pledge to sign into law the Republican sponsored border bill that Trump torpedoed earlier this year.

I think Harris needs to run an ad with the multiple interview clips of Dan Crenshaw, Lindsay Graham and others admitting that trump pushed the GOP to block the border bill for his own political gain. That should be top on her outreach priority list.

Windy’s inability to answer the question and explain why Harris-Walz will be a disaster for the country says a lot.

No politician is perfect and most aren’t as bad as their opponents make them out to be (though some objectively are), so I’m interested in the whole story on Walz and Harris here, not just swatting down negative narratives about them.

I want to know what their downsides are and why the average working family is better off voting against them, if people do in fact believe that.

I commend your efforts to instigate a sensible dialogue with “conservatives” here. It’s why I started the thread about Trump/Vance policy stances - to try to get people to actually discuss details of policy positions, as opposed to more rhetoric. Unfortunately I think wimsey nailed it pretty accurately, which is that the right are very tribal and not really interested in nuanced discussions about policy positions. It’s why they like to say things like: “Democrats are in favor of abortion up to nine months”

Anyway, hopefully I’m wrong and we can get some sensible discussion about actual policies here.

One policy that Biden has instigated that Harris would certainly continue, is the promotion of clean energy projects via incentives and tax credits. This was part of the Inflation Reduction Act and has seen very strong growth of renewable energy projects in the southern states (solar) and the north east (wind). Less take up in the Great Plains. About 300,000 new jobs, and an important pivot away from fossil fuels. Trump would try to stop this effort (“Drill, baby, drill”), although local states (yes even red states) would likely not want him to. I would love to hear why Biden’s initiatives are bad, and that these incentives should be stopped. Why is the promotion of clean, renewable energy sources bad?

I live in a rural area and work in a white collar/professional environment in the DC metro area. So I don’t know many blue collar people generally, but of those I do, none vote Democrat.

Yeah it is not like I am around a ton, but that is exactly it. Zero and the interesting thing is for the old ones they were die hard machine democrats until I would say the last 20 years. The still love Kennedy

In my view it’s a matter of branding and identity–liberals are seen as soft God-hating atheist commies and Republicans aren’t. Blue collar guys don’t identify with that. But I don’t see how the GOP has been working for them over the last four decades.

**The GOP may not be working for them, but they are not actively working against them in their minds, **-which isn’t unfair. How many times on here have the smug assholes rolled out, the more education you have the more you vote Democrat?

In their minds… key words. The GOP hates unions. Trump fucked soy farmers. Trump/GOP Does nothing to help the middle class.

  1. Are there any Democrats of national prominence you would vote for over Trump? IOW, is this a Harris-Walz problem or a Democrat problem generally for you? Your question is flawed in that it assumes I would vote for Trump. I think the Democrats have swung too far left. I pose the question to you, the blue collar guys you know, guys in the trades, do they vote Democrat anymore? None i know do. Democrats used to be their party. The party of the working class. I would say that’s not the case anymore. And don’t get me statrted on the shitshow that is the GOP

.

Not the OP but yes, most of the UAW folk I know plan on voting DEM and typically do.

What I have seen is most of the labor is supportive of DEM’s the folks who call themselves labor but own/ run a business or trade company, lean more to the Republican side. But this gets into the classification, is a plumber who owns a 5 person shop and still does calls A trade / skill / labor person or a Business owner? Traditionally business owners vote Rep and Labor Dem, although these days that is not nearly as cut and dried as some Politicians, dont talk about policies, just name call and stir up shit (Yes both sides name call and stir up shit, the difference is some actually put out a policy) I mean our past president, ran on changing H.C. 4 yrs at POTUS, talked about his new H.C. Policy but never once showed it or put anything out to a vote, now he is running again, talking about how bad H.C. Is he had 4 yrs to do anything, and never even put out a policy / idea or plan. How can you debate, discuss, decide if he has good idea if he doesn’t do anything? Some there are “bigger” other more important issues than H.C. but I think we can all admit this is a pretty big issue in the US. The folks on the lower end of the income scale see this as a bigger issue than those who have no problem just spending money on it (My PCP of 20 yrs is now going concierge, dropping about 90% of his patients and charging $2000 / year / person to just see him) now to some eh its $2k I like him, no problem, to others, thats a lot of money.

Not sure if folks can follow my thoughts there or point, but Politic’s for some is no longer about a candidates policies, but on their attitude towards others. It makes me sad, to see even our Dem candidates attack ad’s. The point was laid clear when the Rep got made and wanted money back cause they had spent millions attacking Biden then he dropped out. Should they no have spent Millions talking about their candidate their platform then it would not matter who the other candidate is.

I have made no secret Biden was the first Dem Potus I have ever voted for, and it was not a vote for him, but simply against the opposition as historically I have found both parties to be a different side of the same coin, but the current Rep candidate, is so far off the rails, and that party is so “lost” I feel obligated to vote against them. Biden had shown he was not fit for 4 more yrs and the Dems didn’t seem to care and it was enough for me to walk away, since they came to their senses I plan on voting that way again.

My wondering point is, I think if you get back to policy and actual plans, you might see a return to traditional classifications and who supports what, but that is no longer what this about, to the extreme that one candidate doesn’t have any policies, or plans for what they will do to move forward, and yet 50% of the population doesn’t care.

Anyhow, yes I know a lot of labor, the vast majority is supporting Dems. The ones that are not, are in general higher up the labor food chain, I assume that is what you mean by trades,(but that is a small % of labor).


I have a little experience with blue collar workers in non-union environments, in what most would consider the Deep South. A lot has changed here so maybe it’s only deepish now. Very few, if any, were ever democrats. Maybe their parents and grandparents.

At some point in their lives, they’ve personally been wronged by everything the GOP fights against. They blame the Democrats for this. It’s really as simple as that. To the point of the thread, they don’t need to articulate what they don’t like about the history or potential future of Harris/Walz policy. It doesn’t matter. They have reasons they are voting for Trump and naturally I find them overly simplistic, likely somewhat due to my bias. However, I feel comfortable saying I don’t think there is bias in saying it’s probably not correct to say the $8T added to the debt during Biden’s admin is somehow responsible for 100% of the current inflation statistics while the $8T added during the Trump Admin has nothing to do with it.

One of life’s great mysteries is how they can end their day bashing illegal immigrants, wave their “mass deportation” signs, and wake up at 4am to be first in line to get the best undocumented labor that Central America can provide, who wait by the hundreds right outside my office.

The real issue is their names are a nightmare for knowing where the apostrophe goes.

  1. Are there any Democrats of national prominence you would vote for over Trump? IOW, is this a Harris-Walz problem or a Democrat problem generally for you? Your question is flawed in that it assumes I would vote for Trump. I think the Democrats have swung too far left. I pose the question to you, the blue collar guys you know, guys in the trades, do they vote Democrat anymore? None i know do. Democrats used to be their party. The party of the working class. I would say that’s not the case anymore. And don’t get me statrted on the shitshow that is the GOP

.

Not the OP but yes, most of the UAW folk I know plan on voting DEM and typically do.

What I have seen is most of the labor is supportive of DEM’s the folks who call themselves labor but own/ run a business or trade company, lean more to the Republican side. But this gets into the classification, is a plumber who owns a 5 person shop and still does calls A trade / skill / labor person or a Business owner? Traditionally business owners vote Rep and Labor Dem, although these days that is not nearly as cut and dried as some Politicians, dont talk about policies, just name call and stir up shit (Yes both sides name call and stir up shit, the difference is some actually put out a policy) I mean our past president, ran on changing H.C. 4 yrs at POTUS, talked about his new H.C. Policy but never once showed it or put anything out to a vote, now he is running again, talking about how bad H.C. Is he had 4 yrs to do anything, and never even put out a policy / idea or plan. How can you debate, discuss, decide if he has good idea if he doesn’t do anything? Some there are “bigger” other more important issues than H.C. but I think we can all admit this is a pretty big issue in the US. The folks on the lower end of the income scale see this as a bigger issue than those who have no problem just spending money on it (My PCP of 20 yrs is now going concierge, dropping about 90% of his patients and charging $2000 / year / person to just see him) now to some eh its $2k I like him, no problem, to others, thats a lot of money.

Not sure if folks can follow my thoughts there or point, but Politic’s for some is no longer about a candidates policies, but on their attitude towards others. It makes me sad, to see even our Dem candidates attack ad’s. The point was laid clear when the Rep got made and wanted money back cause they had spent millions attacking Biden then he dropped out. Should they no have spent Millions talking about their candidate their platform then it would not matter who the other candidate is.

I have made no secret Biden was the first Dem Potus I have ever voted for, and it was not a vote for him, but simply against the opposition as historically I have found both parties to be a different side of the same coin, but the current Rep candidate, is so far off the rails, and that party is so “lost” I feel obligated to vote against them. Biden had shown he was not fit for 4 more yrs and the Dems didn’t seem to care and it was enough for me to walk away, since they came to their senses I plan on voting that way again.

My wondering point is, I think if you get back to policy and actual plans, you might see a return to traditional classifications and who supports what, but that is no longer what this about, to the extreme that one candidate doesn’t have any policies, or plans for what they will do to move forward, and yet 50% of the population doesn’t care.

Anyhow, yes I know a lot of labor, the vast majority is supporting Dems. The ones that are not, are in general higher up the labor food chain, I assume that is what you mean by trades,(but that is a small % of labor).


Feels like a good place to drop this, from yesterday’s AZ Harris/Walz rally. Relevant quote from the lifelong Republican mayor of Mesa, AZ: https://x.com/Meher1751/status/1822099714952573334/video/1

Sound on, and click the mayor’s video on the left.

  1. By today’s standard do you see them as moderate/centrists, or far left extremists within their party?
    **Well your starting off with the issue, what does the red even mean? The center is now the widest chasm in the past 50yrs. I would say MAGA has moved the right way way way way to the right, and buried anyone close to even central or what use to be right even. When Liz Cheyney is defined as RINO you have moved far right. Hell when picked as VP Pence was talked about as being very far right. I am not sure where Harris falls, I hope she has moved more central after working 4 yrs with Biden. **
  2. Will they govern to the middle (see: Obama, Biden) or left of D’s political center? **I hope Harris continues in Biden’s style, but we wont know till we try, we know what the other guy will do (well we know it will be chaos, and unpredictable, I don’t think anyone really knows what he is going to do). The Funny thing I was talking with my daughter about this and mentioned proggressive Dems, but then ran through some of the “older concepts” and realized I was more in line with them, have I changed or is free lunch at school, and free community college, not that proggressive anymore. I think what Walz has done in Minn, is impressive and the direction I would like to see the country move. **
  3. Why do you believe this—what in their legislative/executive/prosecutorial history or statements makes you believe this?**Well I don’t think I believe this for Harris, but I Walz has his actions as Gov. so hopefully that roles into what Harris wants to do. **
  4. What specifically will they do, or not do, that Trump will/won’t, that will be disastrous for the country? The fear, they raise taxes so high businesses actually leave, (so far has not really been an issue, I think it is easier for a business to leave the country than for an individual, so both sides claim this will happen, I think its more likely to see a business move overseas than it is for individuals). They extend social programs so far we get over burden with the expenses. They force hiring policies that cripple companies, They weaken law enforcement to the point of ineffective (Fears… look at the homeless issue in San Fran) (the whatever they called it in portland) I think those times have passed and even the more left have seen their failure and wont repeat that extreme again. (But really this is kind of a good thing, cities/ states try things that may or may not work, the ones that work we try to move to a national model)
  5. Are there any Democrats of national prominence you would vote for over Trump? IOW, is this a Harris-Walz problem or a Democrat problem generally for you?**Well for me its a TRUMP problem, my vote is purely against him. IOW if the central Rep were running and we could talk policy again, I might … no who am i kidding I would return to 3rd party as fiscally I am conservative, and Socially I am conservative. I should probably clarify that, I am pro less govt involvement in both Social and Fiscal areas. **

I’d like this to be a productive and educational exercise, so sincerity rather than sarcasm would be helpful. We don’t need to rehash Trump-Vance issues here, but fact checking and drawing contrast on positions and statements certainly benefits the conversation.