Would this be a discussion if the swimmer was from Western European , or Commonwealth country or US and the person beat their 100 free WR by 0.4s in a slow pool. (by the way, in support of your comment). I guess our collective skepticism is a result of China’s historical approach at an overall state coordinated level. Regardless that was an awesom 100 free drag race.
Would this be a discussion if the swimmer was from Western European , or Commonwealth country or US and the person beat their 100 free WR by 0.4s in a slow pool. (by the way, in support of your comment). I guess our collective skepticism is a result of China’s historical approach at an overall state coordinated level. Regardless that was an awesom 100 free drag race.
If Leon did what pan did and Pan did what Leon did the “impossible†feat would have been the double.
One other thing, to explain what Brett Hawke apparently cannot see: Pan’s body position is unprecedented. When you see a slightly out of shape 45 year old push 60 second 100s and think, how are they doing that, what they are doing is sitting in high in the water. This reduces drag more than anything else, this helps you maintain speed more than anything else.
Pan is the best ever at sitting high in the water. I think the best way to see it is to look at the lead off leg of the 400 free relay. Alexy is pulling so much more water than Pan, and Pan just moves further and further into the lead.
Like you I readily acknowledge China’s history and understand the skepticism. But I’m not going to reinvent facts. Pan’s progression looks exactly like a really good high school swimmers (in the 100 yard free!). Pan’s technique is the best I’ve ever witnessed.
Would this be a discussion if the swimmer was from Western European , or Commonwealth country or US and the person beat their 100 free WR by 0.4s in a slow pool. (by the way, in support of your comment). I guess our collective skepticism is a result of China’s historical approach at an overall state coordinated level. Regardless that was an awesom 100 free drag race.
Yeah. We get that a lot in Australia. e.g Shayna Jack, Peter Bol etc but if they were foreigners the Australian press would be ripping them a new one. Although with China and Russia, the doping is so endemic it’s hard not to be skeptical.
we’re accusing some young kid of doping with zero evidence
Bit of a stretch to say that there is “zero evidence.” There’s no direct evidence that he has been doping.
Chinese Doping Controversy
Top Chinese Swimmers Tested Positive for Banned Drug, then Won Olympic Gold
Disgraced Olympic Swimmer Sun Yang Eyes Competitive Return as Drug Ban Ends
Hope this helps,
Tim
Also surprised no one has mentioned how Marchand did perhaps the hardest double to do in one finals session- 200 fly and 200 breast. Both take a lot out of you muscle-wise (last 5 meters are agony) and are both the only events i have power-chucked after races as a teen.
Have you missed this thread???
https://forum.slowtwitch.com/forum/Slowtwitch_Forums_C1/Triathlon_Forum_F1/Leon_Marchand_Olympic_Lineup%3A_400IM/200IM/200breast/200fly_P8161834/?page=unread#unread
So Guliano out of the 50 in 17th I believe, what a horrible meet he is having. Dressel barley makes it to the semis, he will have to drop a full half second to get to final I would think…McEvoy is on fire as we thought he might be, he will be hard to beat for that gold…
I see Lani Pallister is swimming after scratching the 1500 where she was a true medal contender, they announced she had covid. Dam lifeguard ladies, always messing around out of the pools and ocean… (-; She crushed her leadoff leg in the 4x200, 1;55+. I think that might get her on the A team tonight, well see. Not an event she usually swims, but like Ledecky, she can stretch from 200 to 1500…
Len doing Leon things, dont see anyone touching him tonight. Too bad the pool is shit, think he would have taken down Lochte’s record. That one has been around for a long while too…
So Guliano out of the 50 in 17th I believe, what a horrible meet he is having. Dressel barley makes it to the semis, he will have to drop a full half second to get to final I would think…McEvoy is on fire as we thought he might be, he will be hard to beat for that gold…
I see Lani Pallister is swimming after scratching the 1500 where she was a true medal contender, they announced she had covid. Dam lifeguard ladies, always messing around out of the pools and ocean… (-; She crushed her leadoff leg in the 4x200, 1;55+. I think that might get her on the A team tonight, well see. Not an event she usually swims, but like Ledecky, she can stretch from 200 to 1500…
Len doing Leon things, dont see anyone touching him tonight. Too bad the pool is shit, think he would have taken down Lochte’s record. That one has been around for a long while too…
I think we need to stop saying that the pool is shit, b/c the shit is literally in the Seine not the pool. The pool is shallow, not shit. 
Would this be a discussion if the swimmer was from Western European , or Commonwealth country or US and the person beat their 100 free WR by 0.4s in a slow pool. (by the way, in support of your comment). I guess our collective skepticism is a result of China’s historical approach at an overall state coordinated level. Regardless that was an awesom 100 free drag race.
Yeah. We get that a lot in Australia. e.g Shayna Jack, Peter Bol etc but if they were foreigners the Australian press would be ripping them a new one. Although with China and Russia, the doping is so endemic it’s hard not to be skeptical.
Yeah here in Canada we have the world Ben Johnson, US gave the world Lance, Italians gave the world Dr. Conconi to train Ferrari, China and Russia have state programs in the past so that really paints the entire country whereas elsewhere doping is at a commercial team or individual level.
So if you ARE a clean athlete from China or Russia you just get painted by the rest of the world because of your country (may be justified in many scenarios).
For now let’s given this kid some credit
1.) Judging from Marchand’s 200br final, I think he could have easily won the 100br too.
2.) With respect to that 100 freestyle WR… I don’t even understand how it’s physically possible. The guy is not that tall, not with a great wingspan, not especially muscled, not especially lean, not with any body type characteristics that resembles the commonly defined genetic swimmer. He didn’t have chlorine hair. His start wasn’t the difference. Neither was his turn. Yet, he dog walked the best the world had to offer and destroyed his own WR in a meh pool. I understand jumping to drug use, not as a character assassination, but as a potential answer to a total mystery. Even if you were to go with drug use, what drug??? You’d need magic to make me go that fast – straight magic.
1.) Judging from Marchand’s 200br final, I think he could have easily won the 100br too.
2.) With respect to that 100 freestyle WR… I don’t even understand how it’s physically possible. The guy is not that tall, not with a great wingspan, not especially muscled, not especially lean, not with any body type characteristics that resembles the commonly defined genetic swimmer. He didn’t have chlorine hair. His start wasn’t the difference. Neither was his turn. Yet, he dog walked the best the world had to offer and destroyed his own WR in a meh pool. I understand jumping to drug use, not as a character assassination, but as a potential answer to a total mystery. Even if you were to go with drug use, what drug??? You’d need magic to make me go that fast – straight magic.
If you look at the 100m on the track Andre DeGrasse falls into this category. He looks like a regular, guy, does not looks that strong, not your typical sprinter body type, but has insane fast twitch and force application for his body size and weight (you often see people like that in the weight room doing insane max squats with tiny bodies and no muscle definition that you would expect). Is this possible in swimming? Just huge fast twitch application of force while being streamlined as he does that? I don’t know, just asking.
for 46 second event, you still need a large aerobic capacity though. It’s not like 9.8 second 100m sprint. So all the drugs that enhance oxygen carrying capacity would make a difference if not you can do the entire race barely breathing.
1.) Judging from Marchand’s 200br final, I think he could have easily won the 100br too.
2.) With respect to that 100 freestyle WR… I don’t even understand how it’s physically possible. The guy is not that tall, not with a great wingspan, not especially muscled, not especially lean, not with any body type characteristics that resembles the commonly defined genetic swimmer. He didn’t have chlorine hair. His start wasn’t the difference. Neither was his turn. Yet, he dog walked the best the world had to offer and destroyed his own WR in a meh pool. I understand jumping to drug use, not as a character assassination, but as a potential answer to a total mystery. Even if you were to go with drug use, what drug??? You’d need magic to make me go that fast – straight magic.
If you look at the 100m on the track Andre DeGrasse falls into this category. He looks like a regular, guy, does not looks that strong, not your typical sprinter body type, but has insane fast twitch and force application for his body size and weight (you often see people like that in the weight room doing insane max squats with tiny bodies and no muscle definition that you would expect). Is this possible in swimming? Just huge fast twitch application of force while being streamlined as he does that? I don’t know, just asking.
for 46 second event, you still need a large aerobic capacity though. It’s not like 9.8 second 100m sprint. So all the drugs that enhance oxygen carrying capacity would make a difference if not you can do the entire race barely breathing.
Hmmm… Oxygen carrying capacity drugs sound good, but I’ve never heard of them making much of a difference in a race that’s this short. I’m not saying this as an expert – or someone that’s even tried any illegal performance enhancers – I’ve just never even heard of anything like that as an option for 100m races.
I didn’t DQ you for being English, I’m originally English, it’s just that English Wastewater treatment plants appear to have no qualms in polluting just about every river and lake in England (eeee… where’s there’s muck there’s money")…if you swim there you are already immune to anything the Seine has to offer and the “numpty” guy will win.
I was originally a white water kayaker.
I paddled some rivers in north east Turkey where toilets discharged directly in. Grim. Made the Seine seen like Evian. When I went upside down, I’d close my nostrils like a hippo as well as my eyes before rolling back up. Another river was literally the colour of coco-pops milk due to all the stuff washed in after a storm - not even white water in the rapids - just churned brown water. But never took a swim there - that would have meant buying the crate of beers for my paddling buddies and merciless piss-taking for days after (years after actually!)!
1.) Judging from Marchand’s 200br final, I think he could have easily won the 100br too. //
No doubt this year, and perhaps the 100 fly and the 200 free too. And did I forget to mention the 400 free also! Since they are keeping him out of relays, he easily could have swam at least one more event, that first day 400 free was perfect, one day and done…
As to that 100, watching the guy swim through the water, he just looks so efficient. I mean I have never seen someone in sprints like that, maybe Lezak in his prime. The sprinters of late are using that big overhead straight arm pull, but this was just all moving forward looking like a 200 guy…And I’m with you, what the hell drug does that? If you are going to build a sprinter and dope him to the gills, pick someone 6’5" and built like cross fitter.
And the silly thing is that he barley made it to this race, a few 100’s and he is sitting and watching it, and that was semi’s!!!
For now let’s given this kid some credit
I’m trying!
Is Thomas Ceccon the best looking Olympian?
You’ll have to ask some of the ladies, I’m sure Ironclm has some thoughts on that subject…
As a heterosexual male I am comfortable in saying that he is pretty good looking.
listen we all know you are marchand’s no 1 fan, but what do you make of him not being on the relays? Not worth him being on it, or its a disrespect to his team mates as he is being individually focussed? He will be the 4x100 medley so we will see what happens there.
Also whenever you say that guy can win all the other events he does not compete in I shake my head but we’ve been around this buoy before. Lets put a tag on this post and if he races some of those events in the future and he is a world beater you can come back and rub my nose in it 
So far this games he has just swum perfectly. Two completely different strategies for the fly and br and both masterfully executed.
Just some thought for conversation.
I’m sure many will also be watching T&F at these Olympics.
I find the differences in qualifying procedures for the two sports interesting.
Swimming is all time, top 16 times in heats go to semis, top 8 there to finals
In Track, the top X number from each heat move on and the field is filled with the next X fastest times. Same from semis to finals.
I think this makes it easier for the faster track runners; they can shut it down and rest when they know they have a position to move on.
In swimming, they all have to push harder to make sure they have one of the best times. Also, a lot less visibility in swimming to see what place you are in, even if qualifying was done the track way.
What do others think of these differences?
Just some thought for conversation.
I’m sure many will also be watching T&F at these Olympics.
I find the differences in qualifying procedures for the two sports interesting.
Swimming is all time, top 16 times in heats go to semis, top 8 there to finals
In Track, the top X number from each heat move on and the field is filled with the next X fastest times. Same from semis to finals.
I think this makes it easier for the faster track runners; they can shut it down and rest when they know they have a position to move on.
In swimming, they all have to push harder to make sure they have one of the best times. Also, a lot less visibility in swimming to see what place you are in, even if qualifying was done the track way.
What do others think of these differences?
Well, my first thought about the qualifying for both sports is that it is exhausting. Very negatively affects certain types of competitors. You can’t just be fast. You’ve got to be young, and you’ve got to have a lot of endurance. Can you imagine a Masters Olympics where you had heats, semis, and then a final of the 100m freestyle?
Wrt to T&F there’s always more potential to influence the race of your fellow competitors – drafting, packs, having to run around people, collisions, etc. So, I think it makes some sense to go by place in T&F and pure time by swimming.