Not true, there is an alternative. And I never said they had to completely abandon the Ironman races either.
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Ah yes, the wee pro triathletes who make up what, .0005% of the sport? Unless of course you are for further separating the professionals from the amateurs, something that has never been done, ever, because professional triathlon without amateurs not only unsustainable, but it never becomes a sport.
So, letās again, how do you apply this to the field 2500, not the field of 35.
If the pros wanted to make a point, they could focus on t100 (where invited) or race Challenge and maybe only do 1 IM race tops. But that kind of move, unfortunately like name blasting Ricotello, would probably make them an enemy for no other reason thanā¦what are we talking about 10 watts? 20 watts? 30 watts in some special circumstances?
Iām not sure Iām prepared to buy Sam Longās 50watts assertion. Assuming you can ride in a pack and be at the back saving 50 watts, we should see really strong runs coming from these groups right? Now Iām really kicking myself for not jumping on behind the group Sam Long towed around in front of me at IM AZ. It apparently wouldnāt have cost a whole lot more effort! (no, I donāt really think that)
But in either case, how many watts is it worth to cause the people at PTN to make enemies with Ironman? Thatās how Iām looking at it. I really hope thatās not the case, but I really like PTN and even lurked around one of their live shows. I just donāt see how this advocacy is worth becoming a personalized fight.
Again, just me, the anonymous internet personā¦ Iād probably want to fire off some emails saying, this is just a reflection of how passionate I am about the sport and apologize for personal scorched earth tactics. And Iād do that again on my show in the next broadcast. But maybe I donāt understand the controversial media world and if it bleeds it leads kinda thing.
See ā this is me rabble rousing for PTN to make a different kinda change. I wonder if they are susceptible to slowtwitcher pressure? 
The nonsense of this is that the pace line will still exist at 20m.
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And be just as important as ever, as I also argued several times.
Oh, and I was also going to say ā I listened to the podcast. Thanks for putting that together Talbot. I am a huge fan of how you guys can pull athletes who love the sport in and give us content. Sincerely love it.
I do put on my business hat though, and think that if I invited someone (Sam, Lionel, etc) out to come test something for my business and they were talking about it in a way that tried to force my hand and giving out data that I paid forā¦ well, Iād be pissed. And Iād never invite them again. And now if Iām Sam or Lionel Iād make sure I damn well donāt give anyone a chance to ding me for a penalty come the next race. Because race ranger will document it, and we all know that some red blinks get ignored, while others get the bad boy tent.
Sayingā¦ āIāve love to talk about specifics, but that test belongs to Ironman and itās probably not appropriate for me to give more than general detailsā would go along way towards getting respect, invites back, etc. I certainly would know who not to invite next time, if I was annoyed about something being shared or advocated.
All that said, he plus side, is, every year there needs to be something to talk about. We canāt just complain about Kona and women or old men all the time.
Iām not sure why itā not a VPN issue, but this show on iTunes wonāt stream, I get the "not supported on this device error @talbotcox Very good conversation, I didnāt find their reasoning super compelling but itās good they get to voice their opinions. Iām still in leave it 12M unless the benefit is in the 10+ watt advantage range.
I have to pause my VPN to connect to the iTunes server, otherwise I get that error as well.
Does it really matter if it applied to the amateur field? There is very little enforcement of the existing rules in the AG field. Very few AGāers could show the difference between 8,12, or 20 m nor could most of the officials that are āmonitoringā the AG field. Are 2500 people going to stop signing up for IM events because the draft zone is now 20m vs 12m? There are a large percentage that are in the mindset of āIām not going to win so the rules donāt really matterā. They are guideline or suggestion.
Our podcast does the same thing right now.. I think some of these push platforms are fighting with each other
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Pod on youtube
Rough notes:
MD
- individual effort
- 20m would make it more entertaining
- smaller more groups - different stories to tell
- 12m creates confusion
- data from draft testing
- in pack at 45 saving 20-50w
- if leading 350, follower 320: way more energy and effect on run
- 10w = 3 mins Kona male speed
- dig if on front - eg marbella best 2 hr pace - 9 guys together - closing the gap more diff
- harder to make diff on bike
- im feared that product might look worse
- t100 v im comparison - way more athletes in fd
- miami knew more power would reward
- can vote with feet, no?
- Distance preferred
SL
- SC low attraction - run races
- allow bike to make a difference
- pack dynamic at 12m deters
- things change in sports eg RR and speed
- at 12m why lead, at 20m harder for followers either
- fair iaw rules ok, fair in essence
- Does 20m make it harder for sam? eg PTO US Open - 20m allowed md and sl #1#2 to move thru
- smaller groups - will break up
- at 20m working whole time #2 #5, at 12m #2 working but #5 easy/freewheeling
- 320w was #1 at #5 270w
- provided data from 23 kona
- will see more attacks at 20m, 20m will make it more entertaining
- large packs at T1 issue - takes time to sort out now - no real diff/issue gets sorted pretty qick
- pro v amateur - can if want prob not practical 12 not a prob for amateurs
TK
- energy diff for lone riders
- best or tactical
- 25 4:31 230w how much saving if an athlete led me
- WPro and mateur interaction - only men who are marginal pros
- can vote with feet, no?
- efforts rewarded sit up
- T1 just sorts
- rewards aggressive racing - entertaining
- pro v amateur - not an ask
- athlete board?
- unintended consequences: of 12m : safety speed 20m better moto effects - little bit more space
- get gap but moto pulls rider back up
- bike coys suffer if bike matters less - Trek example from SL
- SC draft legal no bike sponsors because ādoesnāt matterā
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Does this mean they will stop athletes from running in front of each other?
Physics already stops athletes gaining the same amount of draft on the run as they do at 12m on the bike. If this Q was for me, does this help?
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It was just so funny to me watching all of these athletes talk about āNon draftingā and all they do is talk about the BIKE.. and how 20 meters is all of the sudden going to make it āfairā
Drafting in the swimā¦ Drafting in the runā¦. NBD..
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Can you answer why pro runners stay in a group then? I think you are falling for the trap of focusing on big numbers.
The little numbers make a huge difference when you are at the limits. Indeed, they might make all the difference. Time and again, packs break up in pro running around aid stations, and people never regain contact. When you are running at your limit, and you lose that, it becomes insurmountable for some.
Now, I hope you expected this oneā¦
The metabolic cost of emulated aerodynamic drag forces in marathon running - PubMed.
āCombining our findings with those of previous aerodynamics studies, we estimate that for a solo runner (52 kg) at 2-h marathon pace, overcoming aerodynamic drag force (1.39% BW) comprises 7.8% of their gross metabolic power and drafting can save between 3 min 42 s and 5 min 29 s.ā
Even if we estimate the gain down to 2 minutes at IM marathon paces, surely we can all agree telling someone, ājust run your predicted marathon time 2 minutes fasterā is pretty much impossible.
It was just so funny to me watching all of these athletes talk about āNon draftingā and all they do is talk about the BIKE.. and how 20 meters is all of the sudden going to make it āfairā
Drafting in the swimā¦ Drafting in the runā¦. NBD..
I think the difference is that the bike was set up to be non-drafting from when long course triathlon was first founded, whereas that was never the intention with the swimā/run. All swim and run races are some kind of heat or simultaneous competition. Track, road, pool, open water, oyouāre alwasy racing others- sometimes in your own lane, sometimes in a big group, but never out there by yourself. Whereas pro cycling has always had ITT events (both on the track and the road) and that ws the genesis of long course tri. Now with the size and competitiveness of the sport, itās not feasible to make it a true ITT on the bike which would require something like 50m spacing to truly have no effect. But the argument for 20m is to make is ācloserā to an ITT effort, while also being realistic to the constraints of having >100 M and F pros out on course and making it feasible to have a TV broadcast.
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Which is a fair point, but weāre past the age where things are what they are because of their precursor sports. Weāve been around long enough as a sport to be able to make up whatever we wish. The better questions now are:
- What type of sport do we want? (competition wise)
- What types of strategic tradeoffs do we want our athletes making?
- etc.
Even if thereās ā50wā (per Sam Long) of benefit in 5th position on the menās train, this isnāt necessarily a bad thing in and of itself - its a race dynamic that exists and we get to discuss the tradeoffs that result.
Ditlev makes the best points since heās done the most testing. Longās is a bit contrived reducing the racing weāve since last year to mere running races. Saying that WTCS races are always decided on the run which is why it has fewer viewers is incredibly mistaken. Knibb asking whether we want the best or more tactical athlete to win is a bit contrived. You obviously need both. Not every race can be a solo time trial effort for her.
The issue I see is that this study presupposes people running at roughly the same pace. That makes sense in marathons, where a large pack will run together for large portions of the race. However thatās just simply not the case in Ironman and the run variability is dramatically bigger.
So the feasibility of someone being able to draft an entire marathon in Ironman drops to essentially zero, and the theoretically benefit canāt be achieved. Look at Nice where 6 uber bikers got off, some who could draft better, and still they broke up rather quickly.
Now the argument is that if those who were able to draft at 12m now have to stick on at 20, maybe they also blow up quicker.
No it wasnāt, and I was there. If you get past the first few years of the sport where events were all mixed up(like bike/run/swim), the original Ironman rules were to stay 2 bike lengths behind the leading rider. That was the early rule for the non draft bike, and what everyone thinks they know what it means is just made up in their minds. Over the years it has gotten pushed out a couple times, but the bike was never meant to be anything but what the current rules said it should be.
Now you can all lobby and wish for a completely non draft, something like 50 meters I would guess, but that is a new sport, one that was never intended by the original racers, race directors, and rule makers..
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Ben Kanute:
Here are a few clips from my most recent podcast on the 20m draft zone:
- 20m encourages taking more risk. Fairness is not quite the issue as we all follow the rules as they are written.
- Any issue with the 20m draft zone is still applicable to pretty much the same extent as 12m and you have to solve this regardless.
- Passing is not harder, itās just hard. You get extra time in 20m vs. 12m and regardless you are increasing effort.
- The womenās pro race is already affected by age groupers and male pros and needs solving regardless of the draft zone. 20m will not make it worse in my opinion.
- 20m will allow packs to break up potentially and avoid large clumping and long lines like some people predict
- You absolutely can have different draft zones for age group vs pro. If they mix, you can still give your 20m or 12m spacing regardless. Athletes are responsible for following their rules at all times regardless of the situation.
Ben Kanute https://www.instagram.com/p/DTOEz9yiUGz/
Clutterbuck (from @7:20):
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