IM Copenhaguen AG madness

Triathlon Forum
42

Since when are AGers running 2:40 IM marathons on legit courses? Fast course, perfect weather, who cares. Those have existed for decades, but it wasn’t long ago that not even the top pros sniffed 2:40. Now you’ve got multiple AGers doing it in a single race? And after riding bike splits that the uberbikers of old like Jurgen Zack and Tjorborn Sindballe could never manage? WTF world are we living in?

Aero trickle down + supershoes.

Plus a lot of “working from home” post covid. It’s a sport that rewards volume. I don’t think these super fast AGers are doping (not in the 30-34 anyway, maybe different in the 45 plus), they are just able to get more training done in what was previously office time. That 30 minute lunch time run can be 60 minutes plus now as long as the Zoom schedule allows it. With no commute the early 3k swims can be extended to 5k etc. Most of it will be hidden from Strava, or at least the start time hidden. Strava even say it themselves!

“Whether it’s for privacy, safety or to hide those extra-long lunch workouts from your coworkers (no judgment!), just go to Hidden Details in Edit Activity after you upload to conceal the time of day you got started. Of course, you can control the visibility of your workouts for every activity in your privacy settings”

Ha so true!

43

Just for some context, Tergat’s 2:04.55 world record in Berlin from 2003, dropped in 20 years to 2:00.35 in Chicago last year by Kelvin Kiptum…

Full context: « Kenyan Runners Set the World’s Pace, Chased by a Doping Crisis » NY Times Nov 2, 2023
https://www.nytimes.com/...marathon-doping.html

Not targeting Kiptum precisely, but Kenya athletics has been facing a deep doping problem since Tergat’s era. And that includes top Kenyan runners.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/...hletics/66223437.amp

https://therunningchannel.com/…-doping-suspensions/

I didn’t want to get into that, but if the top marathoners only shaved 4:20 in 20 years inclusive of doping off open marathon times, what is this saying about triathlon (without pointing at Kiptum or the top triathlon marathon splits) if in triathlon it has been a 11 minute improvement in that time.

By contrast Gebreselassie’s 1998 10,000m world record in 22 years only came down by 11 seconds in 2020 by Joshua Cheptgai from 26.22 to 26.11. In between Bekele had the record in 2005 at 26.17.

Let’s assume the same prep of all kinds (phyisical, medical) etc is available to all runners, the 10,000m guys are just using track spikes and their times in triathlon terms are relatively constant. On the bike the TdF riders are blowing away the Lance/Pantani era and the theory is better equipment and better marginal gains.

So in triathlon on the bike we have better equipment and better marginal gains and on the run we have better supershoes.

The angle that the other guys brought up about Covid19 and working from home on the age group front is huge. I have my own company and so goofing off is at my own expense, yet on Covid19, I was generally doing 100hrs per year more in 2020 and 2021 than what I can do now being back in office 5x per week. Every workout just got 15-30 min longer mid day (5x30 min, gives you 2.5 hrs x 52 weeks and there is your 100 extra hours per year). I was also getting 30 extra minutes of sleep per week on average.

44

I think better fuelling during an Ironman will have played a much bigger role than super shoes gain in these run time improvements.
20 years ago what were they taking (genuine question)? Maybe stuff like dates and best case flat coke.
Certainly don’t think it was anywhere near enough to start the marathon with loads of energy in the tank.
This would also explain the much greater gain in Ironman run vs open marathon.
Wear fuelling does not become an issue till past 1 hour vs second 1 of the ironman run.
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Clearly you haven’t been around for long.

30 years ago Powerbar were a major sponsor of Ironman Canada and we had bars and gels aplenty.
1993 Kiwi Brendon Downey brough a whole bunch of these new fangled gel things from NZ.They were called Leppin Squeezy
Endrua products were a staple in Australian training groups and SportsPlus was the sponsor of Ironman Australia.
Two time Ironman Canada Champ Tom Price brought a car load of Cytomax products to use during his 1993 Ultraman Canada win (I was on his crew)
Gatorade has been an on course staple for most Ironman’s for decades.
I used to buy pure Maltodextrin in the local Pharmacy in Cairns through the late 90’s.The product is called PolyJoule and was used to add calories to the diets of aged folk who couldn’t eat well. I used that stuff in all my bottles during my Ultraman wins in the 90’s
The very same stuff that athletes are using now was around 20 and 30 years ago.

Clearly there’s gray area and it’s not a jump from zero to full fueling. Even just DrAlexHarrison’s basic concentrated bottle is a performance fuel than any of the above except your own homebrew. Now there’s 20 competing maltodextrin/fructose concentrated products.

The difference IMO is that you can start the run now with a calorie surplus AND a relatively empty stomach, whereas in the past you had a choice between underfueling or having a stomach full of 20 powerbars or 30 gatorade’s.

Also the internet has opened up training from a black box of secrets to an open and optimized library.

45

The very same stuff that athletes are using now was around 20 and 30 years ago. //

In 1981 I remember Gary Hooker who was at the time a top masters and even top 10 contender, use old cigar holders full of table sugar. He would just pour one of those into a water bottle and get his calories kind of like many do now…We also started using honey and maple syrup back in the 80’s, also a staple for many today…

And Dev has lost his mind I think, he is comparing and picking one of the slowest Ironman run times in recent history. Go back 35 years ago and guys were running 2;39+'s in Kona and elsewhere even faster.Thats like going to some ultra running event where no good men show up and the woman wins overall, and then saying look here, women are now better than the men…

So if you want to compare marathon times in Ironman, go back to Mark and Daves 2;39’s and now you have a 5 to 7 minute difference. Factor in the shoes, and it is just a couple minutes at most from actual physical improvements, along with being on the course less time from faster rides…

46

I started in Copenhagen and I had the fastest bike split. 4:12:04 *1min slower than Emil Holm

The weather was perfect for fast times. Below 20 degrees, cloudy and almost no wind.
With the current knowledge about aerodynamics, training and nutrition, which is available to everyone on the Internet, it doesn’t surprise me that the age group times are now so fast.

47

I started in Copenhagen and I had the fastest bike split. 4:12:04 *1min slower than Emil Holm

The weather was perfect for fast times. Below 20 degrees, cloudy and almost no wind.
With the current knowledge about aerodynamics, training and nutrition, which is available to everyone on the Internet, it doesn’t surprise me that the age group times are now so fast.

Congrats on the great split! It is impressive even for a perfect weather conditions. If I remember correctly, in 2022 there was also a perfect weather and the fastest bike split was around 4:17 on 275W - the route was the same but it was counter clockwise. Could you share you numbers?

48

I started in Copenhagen and I had the fastest bike split. 4:12:04 *1min slower than Emil Holm

The weather was perfect for fast times. Below 20 degrees, cloudy and almost no wind.
With the current knowledge about aerodynamics, training and nutrition, which is available to everyone on the Internet, it doesn’t surprise me that the age group times are now so fast.

Congrats on the great split! It is impressive even for a perfect weather conditions. If I remember correctly, in 2022 there was also a perfect weather and the fastest bike split was around 4:17 on 275W - the route was the same but it was counter clockwise. Could you share you numbers?

I had 260w avg. and 270w NP at just over 70kg.
I rode the hills quite aggressively to maintain speed.
1min 362w
5min 303w
20min 284w
But it’s all on Strava.

49

How do you guys ride over 40kph on just 260w? I don’t know what I’m doing wrong - my position is super low, and I have all the sensible aero stuff (good suit, helmet, calf sleeves, disc, deep front, old aero frame). Rode 265w/275NP avg multiple times (@75kg) with a very good eye for where to push on hills and I always split 4:46 or so. The addition of the sleeves and disc didn’t even make a difference.
Very reluctant to accept I need to pay for an expensive monocoque bar setup or eliminate short bits of uncovered gear cable. Those surely can’t add 3kph+.
What am I missing?

50

You’re 11 pounds heavier. Watts per kilo is still a thing.

51

How do you guys ride over 40kph on just 260w? I don’t know what I’m doing wrong - my position is super low, and I have all the sensible aero stuff (good suit, helmet, calf sleeves, disc, deep front, old aero frame). Rode 265w/275NP avg multiple times (@75kg) with a very good eye for where to push on hills and I always split 4:46 or so. The addition of the sleeves and disc didn’t even make a difference.
Very reluctant to accept I need to pay for an expensive monocoque bar setup or eliminate short bits of uncovered gear cable. Those surely can’t add 3kph+.
What am I missing?

Several years ago I did a 2:15 half IM split (40kph) on a flat course on 210W. I am only 5’6" though so inherent frontal is small. I weighed 63 kilos

52

I think you are spot-on with the hypothesis that ‘working from home’ provides more time for IM training and recovery and thus leads to better results. I have experienced it myself. In IM there is no substitute to volume for race results imho.

53

The very same stuff that athletes are using now was around 20 and 30 years ago. //

In 1981 I remember Gary Hooker who was at the time a top masters and even top 10 contender, use old cigar holders full of table sugar. He would just pour one of those into a water bottle and get his calories kind of like many do now…We also started using honey and maple syrup back in the 80’s, also a staple for many today…

And Dev has lost his mind I think, he is comparing and picking one of the slowest Ironman run times in recent history. Go back 35 years ago and guys were running 2;39+'s in Kona and elsewhere even faster.Thats like going to some ultra running event where no good men show up and the woman wins overall, and then saying look here, women are now better than the men…

So if you want to compare marathon times in Ironman, go back to Mark and Daves 2;39’s and now you have a 5 to 7 minute difference. Factor in the shoes, and it is just a couple minutes at most from actual physical improvements, along with being on the course less time from faster rides…

mark and dave went 2:40 and 2:41, respectively, and don’t give me the old “well if you don’t count transition” or “if you only measure the real course” or whatever. they were all-time greats, nobody is taking that from them, but they didn’t run 2:39.

54

Knowing a handful of Nordic, elite-level coaches, another factor that has helped getting people stronger with less time is Zwift.

Earlier you would have to get out in shitty weather in autumn and winter, to do volume, while Zwift is now helping this, both training-wise and motivation-wise.

I think you are spot-on with the hypothesis that ‘working from home’ provides more time for IM training and recovery and thus leads to better results. I have experienced it myself. In IM there is no substitute to volume for race results imho.

55

How do you guys ride over 40kph on just 260w? I don’t know what I’m doing wrong - my position is super low, and I have all the sensible aero stuff (good suit, helmet, calf sleeves, disc, deep front, old aero frame). Rode 265w/275NP avg multiple times (@75kg) with a very good eye for where to push on hills and I always split 4:46 or so. The addition of the sleeves and disc didn’t even make a difference.
Very reluctant to accept I need to pay for an expensive monocoque bar setup or eliminate short bits of uncovered gear cable. Those surely can’t add 3kph+.
What am I missing?

List out your equipment and we can guess. You aren’t using gatorskins are you? haha

56

How do you guys ride over 40kph on just 260w? I don’t know what I’m doing wrong - my position is super low, and I have all the sensible aero stuff (good suit, helmet, calf sleeves, disc, deep front, old aero frame). Rode 265w/275NP avg multiple times (@75kg) with a very good eye for where to push on hills and I always split 4:46 or so. The addition of the sleeves and disc didn’t even make a difference.
Very reluctant to accept I need to pay for an expensive monocoque bar setup or eliminate short bits of uncovered gear cable. Those surely can’t add 3kph+.
What am I missing?

You should definitely have your aerodynamics checked with someone that knows. ~37.8 kph on 265 W, you have some serious power, but you are losing a ton of speed somewhere. An extreme comparison is that Chevalier averaged around your wattage in Cozumel for 45 kph, this is a flat course for sure, but you should be over 40 kph on that wattage on a TT bike.

57

something is very wrong with those numbers. Find someone to analyze a race file and go from there.

58

I actually had the last slot in M30-34, finish time 8h55’. 23rd Place in AG, but some of the top contenders already had their slot before the race. Of course also some guys didn’t feel the need to go so it rolled down to me.

I did the same race 2 years ago in 9h18’, 72nd overall. This time 68th overall with 8h55’ even though my numbers were a lot better (15W more on the bike, 10’ faster on the run).

Quite some level there 😁

59

This also might be the reason but if I’d hope to get the last minute ticket to Kona, I’d chose Frankfurt instead - 75 slots vs 35 in Copenhagen.

I’m invested in it, since I raced IM Frankfurt yesterday, but the competition in Frankfurt was fierce. 9h17min15sec gives you 32nd place in AG 30-34. This is non-wetsuit sweet water swim, 175km bike with 1250m of elevation, standard flat-ish 100% accurate run. The grass is always greener somewhere else, but I think it was indeed this time.

Hey Michel, I’m guessing you’re a French speaking Swiss? Your English is great but ‘eau douce’ translates to ‘fresh water’. Sweet water would have sugar dissolved in it 😅👍

60

I’m a German-speaking Pole actually :wink: thank you for the correction!

61

I’m a German-speaking Pole actually :wink: thank you for the correction!

Well close anyway 🤣🤣🤣
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