On the contrary, I know many cases of not even top age groupers who get the pro license to race IM just to save money from race registrations. Just pay for the full year, race as much as possible, come dead last every single one but hey, qualifying or getting money was never the goal.
On the contrary, I know many cases of not even top age groupers who get the pro license to race IM just to save money from race registrations. Just pay for the full year, race as much as possible, come dead last every single one but hey, qualifying or getting money was never the goal.
Finishing last or near the back in the pro field is waaaay harder than swimming in a group and biking in a massive group in the age group field. The back of the pro field, is largely racing a TT from the gun (like Sam long does before he bridges up but many back end pros never bridge)
That is the case of the top level age groupers who go pro, but I mean the ââŹĹprosââŹÂ who finish ~10 h IMââŹâ˘s or >4:30 70.3ââŹâ˘s (not because they had a bad day)
But as issuing the pro card depends on each countryââŹâ˘s federation, difficult to regulate
.
Since when are AGers running 2:40 IM marathons on legit courses? Fast course, perfect weather, who cares. Those have existed for decades, but it wasnât long ago that not even the top pros sniffed 2:40. Now youâve got multiple AGers doing it in a single race? And after riding bike splits that the uberbikers of old like Jurgen Zack and Tjorborn Sindballe could never manage? WTF world are we living in?
Not sure about the marathon, but I think the benefits of aero optimization are probably the cause of the fast age group bike splits
.
Since when are AGers running 2:40 IM marathons on legit courses? Fast course, perfect weather, who cares. Those have existed for decades, but it wasnât long ago that not even the top pros sniffed 2:40. Now youâve got multiple AGers doing it in a single race? And after riding bike splits that the uberbikers of old like Jurgen Zack and Tjorborn Sindballe could never manage? WTF world are we living in?
Aero trickle down + supershoes.
This might help too:
âThe Germany market dominated the Europe Testosterone Replacement Therapy Market by Country in 2023 and would continue to be a dominant market till 2031; thereby, achieving a market value of $163.9 million by 2031â
https://www.researchandmarkets.com/report/europe-testosterone-replacement-drug-market
.
Since when are AGers running 2:40 IM marathons on legit courses? Fast course, perfect weather, who cares. Those have existed for decades, but it wasnât long ago that not even the top pros sniffed 2:40. Now youâve got multiple AGers doing it in a single race? And after riding bike splits that the uberbikers of old like Jurgen Zack and Tjorborn Sindballe could never manage? WTF world are we living in?
Come on, 2:40 is for slow pros now.
Any decent pro can now run a 2:32 marathon. You just need proper nutrition (eggs. lots of eggs.)
There was a german study that estimated that ~11% of age group athletes doped at Challenge Roth:
https://www.sportschau.de/regional/br/br-challenge-roth-jeder-zehnte-amateursportler-dopt-102.html
.
There was a german study that estimated that ~11% of age group athletes doped at Challenge Roth:
https://www.sportschau.de/regional/br/br-challenge-roth-jeder-zehnte-amateursportler-dopt-102.html
Yikes. A 50 year old AG athlete self injecting with EPO, this is heavy stuff!
Since when are AGers running 2:40 IM marathons on legit courses? Fast course, perfect weather, who cares. Those have existed for decades, but it wasnât long ago that not even the top pros sniffed 2:40. Now youâve got multiple AGers doing it in a single race? And after riding bike splits that the uberbikers of old like Jurgen Zack and Tjorborn Sindballe could never manage? WTF world are we living in?
Just for some context, Tergatâs 2:04.55 world record in Berlin from 2003, dropped in 20 years to 2:00.35 in Chicago last year by Kelvin Kiptum.
So letâs say it took 20 years to shave off 4.20 from the marathon world record (including super shoes).
Now we have pros running 2:32, while in 2003, Peter Reid won Kona with a 2:47. But letâs go with Idenâs 2:36 in Kona 2022. Thatâs 11 minutes faster than 2 decades ago and in open running it is 4.20 seconds faster.
However, can we say that supershoes help in a 7.5 hrs to 8 hrs race more than in a 2 hrs race?
I think so.
So if we combine better aerodynamics resulting in arriving at T2 with lower TSS (in effect the bike course/effort got virtually shorter) and supershoes at the back end, maybe 11 minutes is in the range of âits all about the shoesâ because the top swim times are no better.
So really its the bike equipment and run equipment. Maybe a bit of better understanding on pacing and fueling, but mostly equipment. Defending all the fast times in the Tour de France versus the peak of the Lance and Pantani years, everyone is saying it is mainly the gear, so if it is mainly the gear, maybe this is the bulk of the answer.
I would not think too hard about age group times. If you combine all the gear, a higher volume of better athletes entering the sport, also resulting in a high density of fast moving age groupers on the bike, and the supershoes on the run, suddenly you have guys who can run within 15 minutes of their open marathon times. A 2:40 IM runner must be a 2:25-2:30 open marathoner. Plenty of top age groupers near the front of age group local marathon racing have been doing 2:30 open marathons for a long time. Now with the gear and the various other factors, maybe more can get close to their open marathon times in IMs
Just for some context, Tergatâs 2:04.55 world record in Berlin from 2003, dropped in 20 years to 2:00.35 in Chicago last year by Kelvin KiptumâŚ
Full context: ĂÂŤĂ Kenyan Runners Set the WorldââŹâ˘s Pace, Chased by a Doping CrisisĂ ĂÂť NY Times Nov 2, 2023
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/11/02/world/africa/kenya-new-york-city-marathon-doping.html
Not targeting Kiptum precisely, but Kenya athletics has been facing a deep doping problem since TergatââŹâ˘s era. And that includes top Kenyan runners.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/athletics/66223437.amp
https://therunningchannel.com/26-kenyan-runners-receive-doping-suspensions/
I think better fuelling during an Ironman will have played a much bigger role than super shoes gain in these run time improvements.
20 years ago what were they taking (genuine question)? Maybe stuff like dates and best case flat coke.
Certainly donât think it was anywhere near enough to start the marathon with loads of energy in the tank.
This would also explain the much greater gain in Ironman run vs open marathon.
Wear fuelling does not become an issue till past 1 hour vs second 1 of the ironman run.
I think better fuelling during an Ironman will have played a much bigger role than super shoes gain in these run time improvements.
20 years ago what were they taking (genuine question)? Maybe stuff like dates and best case flat coke.
Certainly donât think it was anywhere near enough to start the marathon with loads of energy in the tank.
This would also explain the much greater gain in Ironman run vs open marathon.
Wear fuelling does not become an issue till past 1 hour vs second 1 of the ironman run.
.
.
Clearly you havenât been around for long.
30 years ago Powerbar were a major sponsor of Ironman Canada and we had bars and gels aplenty.
1993 Kiwi Brendon Downey brough a whole bunch of these new fangled gel things from NZ.They were called Leppin Squeezy
Endrua products were a staple in Australian training groups and SportsPlus was the sponsor of Ironman Australia.
Two time Ironman Canada Champ Tom Price brought a car load of Cytomax products to use during his 1993 Ultraman Canada win (I was on his crew)
Gatorade has been an on course staple for most Ironmanâs for decades.
I used to buy pure Maltodextrin in the local Pharmacy in Cairns through the late 90âs.The product is called PolyJoule and was used to add calories to the diets of aged folk who couldnât eat well. I used that stuff in all my bottles during my Ultraman wins in the 90âs
The very same stuff that athletes are using now was around 20 and 30 years ago.
hidden pros
huh?
People who train 25-30 h/week without real jobs or one that allows them to recover well, have sponsors (in some cases more than many pros) and a level that would place them in the second half of the pro field. Many choose to win AG races rather than be mid-pack or later end thereâŚ
In Europe they are also potentially paid by the military but not doing any work. Italy, France etc. very common.
Since when are AGers running 2:40 IM marathons on legit courses? Fast course, perfect weather, who cares. Those have existed for decades, but it wasnât long ago that not even the top pros sniffed 2:40. Now youâve got multiple AGers doing it in a single race? And after riding bike splits that the uberbikers of old like Jurgen Zack and Tjorborn Sindballe could never manage? WTF world are we living in?
Aero trickle down + supershoes.
Plus a lot of âworking from homeâ post covid. Itâs a sport that rewards volume. I donât think these super fast AGers are doping (not in the 30-34 anyway, maybe different in the 45 plus), they are just able to get more training done in what was previously office time. That 30 minute lunch time run can be 60 minutes plus now as long as the Zoom schedule allows it. With no commute the early 3k swims can be extended to 5k etc. Most of it will be hidden from Strava, or at least the start time hidden. Strava even say it themselves!
âWhether itâs for privacy, safety or to hide those extra-long lunch workouts from your coworkers (no judgment!), just go to Hidden Details in Edit Activity after you upload to conceal the time of day you got started. Of course, you can control the visibility of your workouts for every activity in your privacy settingsâ
I think better fuelling during an Ironman will have played a much bigger role than super shoes gain in these run time improvements.
**20 years ago what were they taking (genuine question)? Maybe stuff like dates and best case flat coke. **
Certainly donât think it was anywhere near enough to start the marathon with loads of energy in the tank.
This would also explain the much greater gain in Ironman run vs open marathon.
Wear fuelling does not become an issue till past 1 hour vs second 1 of the ironman run.
Many thanks for making me feel so old 
Ironman Austria 2005 (watching the Live8 concert on the whilst getting kit ready). Only took water from the on course, and so this was night before packign every calorie for the day. Powerbar gels (entire 24 box into gel flasks for run and bike), some nutrigrain bars (as the powerbar bars actually were discovered a few years later to be epoxy glue mixed with old shoe leather). In the bottle is infinit nutrition custom mix to have the taste dialled back and the sodium increased to the same as adding a nuun to each bottle.
That said, your point is spot on. Beginners can get a âgoodâ nutrition plan pretty much straight off the shelf and itâs most likely to work. 20 years ago it took a bit more trial and error, and we probably ended up with more âsafety marginâ and less performance than today.
I think better fuelling during an Ironman will have played a much bigger role than super shoes gain in these run time improvements.
20 years ago what were they taking (genuine question)? Maybe stuff like dates and best case flat coke.
Certainly donât think it was anywhere near enough to start the marathon with loads of energy in the tank.
This would also explain the much greater gain in Ironman run vs open marathon.
Wear fuelling does not become an issue till past 1 hour vs second 1 of the ironman run.
.
.
Clearly you havenât been around for long.
30 years ago Powerbar were a major sponsor of Ironman Canada and we had bars and gels aplenty.
1993 Kiwi Brendon Downey brough a whole bunch of these new fangled gel things from NZ.They were called Leppin Squeezy
Endrua products were a staple in Australian training groups and SportsPlus was the sponsor of Ironman Australia.
Two time Ironman Canada Champ Tom Price brought a car load of Cytomax products to use during his 1993 Ultraman Canada win (I was on his crew)
Gatorade has been an on course staple for most Ironmanâs for decades.
I used to buy pure Maltodextrin in the local Pharmacy in Cairns through the late 90âs.The product is called PolyJoule and was used to add calories to the diets of aged folk who couldnât eat well. I used that stuff in all my bottles during my Ultraman wins in the 90âs
The very same stuff that athletes are using now was around 20 and 30 years ago.
the rule of tnumb back then was 1 gram of carbs per kilo weight and most did not take even that much
so for the 2.40 runners that are likley 70 kg that could be a difference of approx 50 grams per hour they are taking on now on the bike.
of course also more performace density nowadays ie is bigger packs and more people know how to train for im today unless back them .
dont forget 2.40 still gets you chicked so its a really good time but still that gets you chicked by anne haug⌠and one would assume the 2.40 in kopenhaegen is more like a 2.45 in roth i say this withouth having looked at strave fiels from denmark but k0penhagen generally is a faster course than roth.
and the shoes .
donât forget 2.40 still gets you chicked so its a really good time but still that gets you chicked by anne haug⌠and one would assume the 2.40 in kopenhaegen is more like a 2.45 in roth i say this withouth having looked at strave fiels from denmark but k0penhagen generally is a faster course than roth.On the detail, Thorstenâs data suggests Copenhagen run is 80 seconds slower than Roth:
https://www.trirating.com/course-ratings/
donât forget 2.40 still gets you chicked so its a really good time but still that gets you chicked by anne haug⌠and one would assume the 2.40 in kopenhaegen is more like a 2.45 in roth i say this withouth having looked at strave fiels from denmark but k0penhagen generally is a faster course than roth.On the detail, Thorstenâs data suggests Copenhagen run is 80 seconds slower than Roth:
https://www.trirating.com/course-ratings/
that compares 2021 and 2023 and i guess we agree there was a soild jump in running speed and so its natural roth 2023 was faster than copenhagen 2021 , copenhagen was also a bit cooler 2021 than roth 2023. not much bit 1 degree is 1 degree .