It’s the train of thought to what I replied too.
You suggested my “train of thoughts”?
I think these two sentences underscore the challenges many folks in this thread are feeling…
This forum has dozens of threads about waxing chains, oversized pulley systems, latex & TPU tubes, tubeless, fastest rolling tires, tire pressure, cutting edge cockpit changes, BTA and BTS hydration systems, etc., all in the quest to save a few watts. Saving a few watts is a big part of what this sport is all about.
It takes a shit-ton of training to gain 3 watts in a race. That translates to gaining around 5 watts of FTP, which takes months of work for someone already in good form. If you can buy 3 watts, that is a huge deal. And the reality is, the difference of a more aerodynamic 25mm tire and lower rolling resistance from higher PSI could be more than 3 watts.
I do not want to throw away power that is freely available through a simple choice, so there is no universe where I would consider hookless wheels for my next triathlon bike.
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And yet the fastest guys in our sport are all on tires bigger than 25mm. and 1/2 of those are NOT on hookless wheels… Why do you think that is?
@stevej go ride 28mm and Ride 25mm on a course that isn’t perfectly smooth and tell me you really want to ride on 25mm tires.
You are right. On a course not perfectly smooth, I would never ride 25.
But on a course that is smooth, I would consider it.
I prefer a wheel where I actually have the choice, especially after paying a premium for it.
In summary, “often as good, never better, sometimes worst” is not a great marketing catch phrase.
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See, this post just doesn’t do it for me. I’m just telling you to be completely no BS honest, your post only reinforces this weird phenomenon. Thoughts when I read your points:
- as @exxxviii said above, the lengths this site/industry goes to get 3 watts can be HUGE. for you to just downplay that, is straight up weird.
- Those companies aren’t forcing me, but brands spec’ing hookless wheels on full bikes IS a problem, and affects buying decisions. This is a deliberate push, at least I feel like it has to be when some brands/models don’t even offer a hooked option. When the only wheels you can get on a Ventum are zipps or enves, or when Canyon’s only version of the aeroad for a while with Sram Force had zipps on it…that’s a non-starter if I am not a hookless person. The brands don’t put a gun to my head, but hookless’ existence can hamstring purchasing decisions more than you might think.
- At the end of the day, “if you follow the rules”…yeah no shit, but the point is that’s a pie in the sky statement. some people commented that sponsored pros didn’t know their wheels were hookless, some people’s pumps are old and might be 5% inacurate… And, as josh said, the margin of error if you F up even slightly is much lower than other products, and the consequences of that F up could be wildly more catastrophic than if you overtighten a seatpost.
- Some empty reference accusing others of personal conflicts of interest to decflect attention from questions about your own? OK…
- Zipp and enve are primarily wheel makers, that is their identify and always will be, you know that and so do we. the fact they manufacture and sell some other products is weak deflection, at best. These two companies have built their entire identity on hookless wheels the past couple of years.
- We aren’t asking you to get mad at hookless. I’m not saying all this because I want you to “join the aggression”. Personally, knowing how smart ST admin is, the experience you have, the things you’ve preached over time (that 3w IS important, for example), I just naturally expect more thoughtful recognition of the hookless questions that have arisen here, and they could be talked about in a no BS, ST-esque way. Instead, we get confusing and contradictory messaging that leaves us all a bit puzzled.
I wanted to say all this just to let you know how your post was interpreted. maybe i’m just having too much fun arguing :-). I apologize, but i do believe these things. I had a safety scare with hookless wheels, this is not a joke to me, and is why i’m so passionate about it. Maybe you thought your comments would help, but it only wildly reinforces this weird phenomenon that ST admin repeatedly and blatantly refuse to grant even one speck of legitimacy to hookless criticism. Ever.
It just doesn’t add up.
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Then leave…
And further to the point of comfort @exxxviii, discomfort equates to lost watts - measurable and already tested and a whole order of magnitude more impactful than the aero gains / losses between tire sizes.
Thanks @stevej 
I would love to see the data to back this up. Further, I would like to see the supporting information include road condition consideration. Ryan published a great article last year on the bikes of the fastest pro Kona riders, but he did not publish tire sizes. A lot of them (but not all) had the Continental Aero 111 which is an odd-sized one-off product - either 26mm or 29mm.
But what is Kona’s road condition? If it is rough, then yeah, I would ride a wider tire. The roads I typically race are fantastic. They are typically in the “New Pavement” or really good “Worn Pavement” categories. For those, I would choose 25mm. Every. Time.
ENVE does not list either size Continental Aero 111 as compatible with my hookless rims.
You can do better than that.
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I’ve ridden both. It really depends how much of the course isn’t “smooth”. Is it just a small section of the course?…. I’m still riding 25mm (eg Kona). Is it 20% or more, then I’m considering 28mm. More than 40%, definitely 28mm.
This all assumes we are using a 20-23 internal width wheel.
I live in area with really smooth roads and most races I’ve done have a good surface. If I lived and raced in areas that have poor roads, I would probably ride 28mm more often applying my above.
Now if only I could simulate 25mm vs 28mm on a course by course basis with good accuracy…
Some courses the road condition is obvious / well-known (New Zealand). And others, I can get a pretty good guess at what it is by watching some youtube videos - like Nice.
It’d be nice to have real comparison numbers, but I think there’s enough info out there to make well educated guesses.
Come to Nice or Kona… I will personally bring you into the pro compound with me and see for yourself. I have done it the last 2 years at both races… MOST pro’s are NOT on 25mm tires…
Yeah and that’s what I do currently. I drive every bike course a day or 2 before the race. Also do videos and google street view a few weeks before.
You would do well at GRAVEL
I’m planning to be in Nice for 70.3 in fall 2026. I hope to see you there.
Nice’s roads are mostly good but worn pavement. I would run skinnier tires there (25 front and 28 rear), like I did when I raced it previously.
B,
You would really enjoy a nice 28mm front going down those roads…
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I ment ever word of it…