This from an industry leader and expert.
After being told so many times by the editorial powers that be here that hookless are just awesome as long as your pressure is within a narrow tolerance, I am very happy to see industry experts call out that BS. Less safety, no performance advantages, cheaper manufacturing costs. Yeah…awesome to see slowtwitch as part of the industry effort to push this crap onto consumers.
Thread closing in 3,2,1…
Reminder that Josh has his own self-interests in mind with this, too.
I fundamentally disagree with Josh – hookless isn’t a scam. It has its own benefits. Whether they outweigh their drawbacks is up to the individual user and their potential use cases. I also think we, as a collective industry, have done a shit job at talking about a.) benefits, b.) drawbacks, c.) needs of the system. And that’s probably true just of tubeless, let alone hookless.
Now. Let’s get some table stakes out of the way:
1.) We’re always happy to have people disagree with us.
2.) What you don’t get to do is question our credibility. That’s been the third rail of Slowtwitch for well before I started working here. Eric, Kevin, and I have a combined 50+ years working in the industry. We aren’t going to sit here and lie to you. We haven’t done that since Dan started the place and we sure as hell aren’t going to start now.
Fair?
But what are the benefits over a hooked rim?
Hahaha
Weight, aero potential (as a system), possible cost savings (although probably not passed to the consumer), impact resistance, and they’re greener to manufacture (if you care about that kind of thing).
Undetermined: rolling resistance benefits or drawbacks, specifically to athletes who aren’t pro athlete sized.
Limitations: narrow optimal operating windows; potential for catastrophic failure (not dissimilar to what we experienced with tubular).
Whatever one does never narrow the safe operating windows.
Thanks for the honest response but given the details you have listed how can you guys push these wheels with a straight face? On one hand you list a few nothing burger ‘potential’ benefits argainst catastrophic failure and expect people to eat it up?
The whole things seems like a inside joke
Because when used safely, they’re great. And yes, there’s a minor but noticeable difference in ride that I attribute to hookless. But that could also be placebo. YMMV.
Our collective industry miss is in the education side of this. You need to mate the right tire to the right rim within the right pressure window to extract all the potential benefit. That requires knowledge drill down to the local shop or to you as a consumer. We all have failed in that mission to date.
I think hookless is a fine option. But it’s an option. I’d ride hookless for my everyday bike. My tri bike is still latex tubed clinchers with (shock and horror) rim brakes. I’m weird like that.
Can you provide specifics, here? How much weight savings, and how much CdA improvement? Numbers?
I just don’t get it.
It’s like trying to get me to eat from an Indian street vendor-on the plus side I might get a reasonable meal at a cheap price, on the negative side I will most likely get nuclear holocaust level food poisoning and spend the next month bringing my arse up through my mouth… Take my money…?
I think you do get. Hookless is nonsense for road pressures.
Gravel and MTB… ok.
What are those self interests that conflicts with hookless?
I can’t think of a single product Silca sells that’s only for hooked.
I knew hookless were a scam when in the other thread with Dan after about 100 pages of ‘trust me bro’ no one could actually come up with a single reason they were better other than cheaper production cost…
Oh sorry, it was also mentioned they were stronger which is just as well with the amount of hooked Zipps that are blowing up every weekend ride…pink…
The “stronger” claim is mostly marketing.
Just to put things in the right columns,
Weight : it’s funny, Enve is now saying the reason they put hooks is to reduce weight.
Aero : hookless is not more aero. There was marketing fluff around a smoother interface and it is fluff. If anything, limiting the width you can put on a tire, pushing to wider, has an aero penalty, measured many times. All the best TT tires aren’t even available in the widths some of these wheels would push us to.
Pressure : undetermined ? Read the EC article. Higher pressures is what UAE requested. Yes, the same UAE people were using to say “it must be great, Tadej uses it”. And no, it’s not for the heavier riders only. Some light riders get away with 5bar. But 60kg riders have been tested suboptiomal below 5 bar. There are other publications that will soon be publishing tire tests and they match with others have tested in the past. Personally, I want a wheel/tire that is good in all conditions, especially when I am paying a premium for it
Rephrase “narrow optimal operating window” with “narrower safe operating window”
That article is clickbait. It’s super important to put the entire quote in its context to satisfy @rrheisler comment about “individual user and their potential use cases.”
The other thread about the industry moving back to hookless had a link to an interview where Josh made the quote. AJA #43: CRR/CDA and Hookless plus The Magnus Effect
Here are some of Josh’s quotes leading up to that statement.
Josh clearly articulates the problem in that interview…
This article is a great example of poor journalism… The writer omits critical contextual points and reorders the sequence of Josh’s comments, which makes it sound like there was some kind of debate and he backed down.
Would you be able to elaborate on this?
I can give you one take
Silca publishes a calculator that very often will recommend a pressure outside the safe range for hookless.
I have done a ton of pressure testing and have seen other’s results and I would say Silca is probably your best bet if you can’t test.