I would recommend that you just ride for a bit, don't worry about trying to nail your FTP. Go do some longer efforts the old way and just collect data.

I'm fairly good at VO2 efforts, so I can put down a good 20' effort, and can really ramp it up in the last 8-10 minutes. Because I excel at VO2 efforts, my FTP is a lot closer to 90-92% of my 20' test power, rather than 95%. I really don't like to do 20' tests to estimate. I prefer to do a 2 x 20' workout with a very short 30" rest in-between. It's not uncommon for my mental desire to be less than my physical ability, so I often hit the lap button at the 10' mark, and continue to push on. I can more easily tell myself I can get to the 10' mark rather than continuing to watch it count to 20'.

Also, if you do a 20' test to estimate, make sure you follow the protocol and not just try a 20' max effort. There's a 5 minute effort beforehand, and IMO, it's important to not skip that.

 
You probably know but there are several ways to do a 20min test

On way is to do a "blow out" before the 20min test and take 95% of your 20min value
Another is to do a 5min test on different days and the use a CP/W' formula to get your threshold
Finally there is the 20min only test which is the least accurate (IMO) of the 3

What I would do is do the 5min first and then compute a target for the 20min.

Ride the target 20min and you may blow up at 16min or able to go for 23min.

Even if you end up at 16m or 23 myou can calculate a CP/W' which will give you a pretty good starting point and you will be better preprared to test next time

Thanks for the replies.

It sounds like I should do something like this?
10-15min warmup
5 min max
10-15min recovery
20 min at the 5 min power number
cool down

Does that sound about right?

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Not a coach. Not a FOP Tri/swimmer/biker/runner. Barely a MOP AGer.
But I'm learning and making progress.

I would suggest using this:

https://www.hunterallenpowerblog.com/...-first-ftp-test.html

Oh god.

No, I would do either the test suggest by Coggan

or

the 5 and 20' tests on different days. I can do about 85-88% (by memory) of my 5 min number on the 20min test.

or

for the first time I would do a ramp test which requires no pacing and get ballpark numbers

I'm not following on doing the 5' and 20' tests on different days. As I understand it, the Coggan's test is similar to what I thought I should do except for the 3x1min wind ups.

• 20 minutes easy warm-up
• 3 x 1-minute hard effort wind- ups with a minute rest between (100 RPM pedal cadence)
• 5 minutes rest, pedaling easy
• 5 minutes all-out (hard at first, but make sure you can complete the 5 min)
• 10 minutes pedaling easy
• 20-minute time trial effort- This is the actual test. Pace yourself so you can last the full 20 min, maintaining the highest level of average power that you can
• 10 to 15-minute cooldown

It has the 5' and 20' on the same day.

But I guess my question was more to the "Pace yourself..." definition and not so much as what the intervals are. As I said, I know i can't sprint for 20'. So what do I use for my "pacing"? Do I go RPE 7-8 for 10' and try to pick it up? Do I go some percentage of the 5' result? Do I go RPE 8-9 for as long as possible? This is what I'm asking.

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Not a coach. Not a FOP Tri/swimmer/biker/runner. Barely a MOP AGer.
But I'm learning and making progress.

this is a protocol different that Coggan. You get 2 different durations on two different days and you plug them into a calculator.

The advantage IMO is the

5' gives you an idea what to do in the 20'.
If you over/under pace the 20' you can still use 16 or 17, or 23 minutes. Same with the 5' is can be 3 or 4...
The 5/20 test gives you an indication of if you are very aerobic or anaerobic.

I have seen many more successful coaches using this type of testing than the Coggan test.

IMO, the best way to get your FTP is to do a simulated 40k TT. it doesn't have to be exactly an hour as FTP is your power at your aerobic threshold rather than a set time. Really any steady effort (e.g. not a crit or punchy road race with tons of spikes) between 40 and 70 mins long should give you a decent estimate. The reason that I say this is because there's so much variability between people that something like 95% of 20 mins or 90% of 8 mins or even a ramp test is pretty unreliable across the board. Most amateurs have their FTP set too high, which results in Z2 and SS workouts being harder than they should be- doing a longer effort helps solve for that problem.

In terms of executing 20 min test, one thing that most people forget is that you have to do a hard effort of ~5 mins before the test to flood the legs with lactate- otherwise, the 20 min test will typically overstate your FTP as it's short enough for a decent anaerobic contribution. This should be in your VO2 max range and feel very hard. How you structure the test around that is up to you, so long as you keep the WU consistent from test to test.

Let me try this again...

I'm not asking what the intervals should be...

I'm asking what should I use to try to pace myself...

I know there are multiple test protocols and I can look up and research what options might fit me best based on where I have to ride. In my case I am planning on the Coggan's test.

What I don't know is how to pace the 20 minutes. The link for the Hunter Allen blog was very helpful (like reminding me it's not a speed test, it's a power test). But how hard should I go during the 20 mins? I have only been using HR because that's all I had. I have Strava estimates on power, but not for a 20' or 60' all out effort. I could use an estimate based on Strava for the first few (10') minutes and see if I'm going too hard or too easy and change the pace, but if it's too hard I may blow up before the test is completed.

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Not a coach. Not a FOP Tri/swimmer/biker/runner. Barely a MOP AGer.
But I'm learning and making progress.

Look you've been given a few ideas on how to pace it see marcag's posts. He's a smart dude, heed his advice even if you ultimately don't follow it. Rijndael gave you some things to think about in his post as well. Rchung who's another really smart person and one to listen to when he posts did a good 2 word summary as well. (tbt it made me lol)

I'm pretty sure if you were to do a 10 mile TT or a 20 min road race you'd have a good idea how to pace that. Just do that. Start out at an effort you think you can sustain for 20 min. Check in with yourself after 2,3,5,8,10, 12, 15, 17 minutes and ask can I sustain this effort? Can I hand onto what I'm doing? Can I push harder? Then adjust.

The # is the #.

Also if you don't do the 5 min all out effort the 20 min test where you take the result x .95 is accurate for about 60-65% of the population. Are you in the 60-65 or the 35-40%?

So just go destroy yourself and don't worry if the power trend line slopes down or up, just go ride hard for 8-10 miles and call it good for now.

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Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta

It should feel tough but manageable for the first five minutes, then once you hit ten minutes, it should feel really hard to hold on.

You've identified the fundamental difficulty with any sustained power ftp test though, you're almost trying to validate an hypothesized threshold rather than determine one. But even if you nail the test and get exactly the maximum you can sustain for 20 minutes, it's still just an estimate of your ftp, so no reason to stress too much about it.

If you go out too hard and blow up, no big deal, just try again at a slightly lower power in a couple days. If you go out too easy and think you left something on the table, same thing. Or you could go out and ride for a little while, and without watching the numbers just go as hard as you can for a little while and see what you average over that effort. Based on how long it is, you can guess a reasonable goal to average for 20 minutes and test based on that number.

Assuming you're using the result to set zones or marks for training, your training will tell you if it's workable or not.

I know this will sound crazy, but it always works for me.
Put tape over the power number, and do a 20 min all out effort.
Here is what will likely happen with your first 20 min power test. You will hit start, hop out of the saddle and get to it, the screen will read like 450 watts, and then maybe settle down to like 300-400 watts. for 99% of people, you will look at the number and think, "I CAN HOLD THIS FOR 20 MIN!" and then you will blowup around the 8-12 min point.
When you know your FTP (or 20 min target) you will see that in future tests, the first 5 min will be easy, 5-15 is difficult, then 15-20 is empty the tank bleed through your eyes. You can pace that the same without looking at the power number.
I use this same strategy when I have not done a test for a while. We had a baby in may, and my "training" has been super inconsistent (as expected). This weekend I am going to go do a test, and if I looked at the power number, I know I would try to keep it at the number it was 6 months ago. And for 5-12 min I could, but not 20.

Best time to try a 2nd FTP test is 7-10d after doing the first test I always say.

One a side note Coggan himself replied to me when I posted that in a thread and I'm paraphrasing a bit, yet he said something like "that desert dude is smart, wise and speaks the truth."

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Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta

 
I found the Xert estimate to be pretty close. I would try it and establish a target then try and confirm it with a 20 minute test.

http://baronbiosys.com/...e-ftp-determination/

If you have a Garmin device then you can install the Connect IQ App and watch the # in real time during your effort.

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What's your CdA?

I think I'm understanding the idea to go out and basically try as best you can, not stressing it, and then follow up next week once I have the experience of the first one and try it again for hopefully better results on what my true ftp is.

Now if Beta finishes before 4pm or 5pm today, I can try the first one this evening.

Thanks

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Not a coach. Not a FOP Tri/swimmer/biker/runner. Barely a MOP AGer.
But I'm learning and making progress.

Do you have an indoor trainer? If you do, and you have a TrainerRoad or Zwift subscription, you could just do their ramp test...no pacing involved...you just go 1 minute intervals at progressively higher watts until you can’t go anymore. It will spit out an FTP estimate at around 75% of your highest 1 minute power.

Alternatively, participate in a few Zwift races of varying distances and see what kind of power you can hold...you’ll get decent info to estimate your 1 hour power.

No indoor trainer, no Zwift, TrainerRoad. Just me and a bike, and now Power Tap power meter :)

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Not a coach. Not a FOP Tri/swimmer/biker/runner. Barely a MOP AGer.
But I'm learning and making progress.

That feels like a long time to me, but I'll defer to the one anointed by the doctor.

I ask my athletes to do 30-45 min. F that 20 min shit, it's for the weak of mind and those lacking stamina.

Or to put it another way if you can't ride for ~ 1h at whatever 95% of your 20 min test is your FTP is too high.

There was a really good thread recently on this. Worth the search

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Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta

Used to run a computrainer center for my club. Test that worked best was 40 mins indoors on a rolling course. Basing off that number the workouts went well. Hard to finish but nobody blowing up.

We used 20 min test for a couple of years and it was a disaster. Lots of people failing workouts. Unfortunately, riders get obsessed with the 20 min test and deliberately go easy on the 5 min blowout in order to save energy for the 20. But even the ones who did the blowout still failed. The person who was running the center at the time felt that if you weren't failing you weren't trying hard enough. Refused to consider that everyone's ftp was set too high.

Coach of a current world champion told me that he knows one person for whom 95% of 20 mins was accurate.

I've never understood this "FTP test tough guy" attitude. Ramp test for me.

I gotcha, but he's doing a 20 minute test.

I read it, it's an interesting discussion. I still like a shorter test, but don't dispute they're fraught with error. They're just not the only piece of information. I set it off a short test then adjust if I can't actually train off that number. If my heart is through the roof doing a 2x20 at threshold, it's too high. If I do a 45 minute zwift race averaging more than a few points over it, it might be too low.

I wouldn't mind doing a full hour test, but I don't have a trainer which means I'll be on the roads. Where I live there are no routes where I can ride unobstructed for an hour.

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Not a coach. Not a FOP Tri/swimmer/biker/runner. Barely a MOP AGer.
But I'm learning and making progress.