But results matter if you are a sponsor or team that "highly encourages" athletes to race in specific categories. IE, exactly how and why social media can influence even more. A no name pro finishing in 18th place doesn't move the meter when an company can "showcase" podiums and dictate the narrative on said social media post. And I'm not saying they are lying about it. I'm saying they can showcase "podium at world championships" and it not really be incorrect, etc. Companies do all kinds of creative branding and advertising, etc.

Case and point- this article. Herbert doesn’t do this article on this athlete if he finishes in 38th place in Kona. But because he was x age group world champion, he can use that as a spring board to go with the soccer to tri angle. That angle isn’t created if he’s a pro I feel fairly confident in saying that based on their article history. Hell he could have finished in 19th AG and I doubt that article would be published. But by “winning” it then creates an angle to make a cool article for ST and the athlete. But let’s not kid ourselves, he got the article because he won.

---

Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

Oh yeah, I'm aware. I personally benefit from this reality in the industry.

Having a front page article about an athlete increases their reach and influence though. And sure, maybe these people are more recognizable/popular (through social media, etc.) than lower level professionals so that's why Herbert chooses to write about them instead. So it's a bit of a positive feedback loop. I'm not blaming this whole reality of the industry on Herbert, but those in the media need to understand this reality and either choose to break the cycle or continue it. I recognize the reality and choose to write about my opinion on it in this thread because I'd like to see change.

I didn’t say results don’t matter. They just aren’t everything and gone are the days of getting a meal ticket because you were on a podium (age group or pro). There’s plenty or people who post about podiums or their races and they get less than 20 likes. Bad picture, bad picture quality, horrible caption, no hashtags, etc.

If you want to move the needle, you need to be showing your value to the company and putting up results. If pros are upset that age groupers are taking away sponsorships then they only have themselves to blame. Show companies why they are unique and how they move the needle compared to the social media savvy age grouper.

---

blog

Yeah, it would be nice if triathlon culture always placed those racing in the professional field above those racing age group in terms of prestige.

This backwards scenario we have now though is due to the misconception that the top age groupers are "just like you and me" and time X from them is super impressive because of all the other stuff in their life (which it is!). But everyone racing in the professional field is "not at all like you and me and totally unrelatable" so time X isn't that impressive from them because they're professionals so they don't have anything else going on in their life so of course they should be able to do time X.

If more people understood the reality that it's a very blurry line in terms of triathlon/work/life balance between the bottom of the professional field and the top of the age group field, then I think we'd see a swing in attention and prestige to those working full time, putting up amazing performances AND challenging themselves against the best.

Oh I agree with you but you gotta admit there are sponsors that want to “cherry pick” their athletes so they can then market that. Your willing to admit that yes?

And again good on them. I just think it then starts to bring in “sandbagging” but again any athlete can choose to race whatever category they want, just as sponsors have every right to put restrictions on their athletes. Nothing wrong with any of it. But when you start to bring in results and social media influence I think you start to get away from actual racing merit. But again athletes have that choice in our sport.


And because it’s athlete choice “sandbagging” really isn’t applicable in real terms. But I just want someone to go on the record just once of the opposite of “I race bop because I want to challenge myself”….I just wish someone would say “yeah I like winning so I’m good as AG only” (I'd respect the hell out of that kind of admission).

ETA: And no this is not for the OP, as to me the 35+ AG is imo "too old" to actually develop in the pro sport. I'm more referencing U 30 athletes who are really really really. good and fail to go to pro (for whatever reason).

---

Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

On the one side you tell me to get off a high horse (thereby making it personal rather than sticking to the discussion, you can do better than that). On the other hand you say the sponors care about social media reach.

You do realize that the only reason people like this have social media reach in the first place is because rather than perhaps being 10th 35-39 year old in the field (give or take), he is number one 35-39 year old in a 35-39 division two.

It would be like getting coverage in mainstream sports journals for being leading the farm league vs winning the world series. Normal sports don't give more coverage to the winner for the farm system than 30th place teams in the top pro league.

Sebi won the 35-39 bracket in 7:55. Barely any coverage for him and barely any coverage for all the other 35-39 athletes in the pro field and then this guy gets a front page article for winning div 2.

Matt got his pro card. He hit a pedestrian that walked onto the bike course in Kona last month as his last AG race. He walked his wrecked bike in and walk/ran the run course to finish the race.

---

http://www.sfuelsgolonger.com

I got personal because you put off this holier than though attitude putting down Tom’s accomplishment and abilities. At least that’s how it comes across on here. I thought you were better than that. Please just stop. Sebi did not win the 35-39 division. He placed 6th overall and had a hell of a race. Tom is fast and deserves all the credit he is getting. Getting on the podium at kona, let alone winning your age group, is a major accomplishment. Time to move on.

---

blog

Maybe? I honestly know.

If I’m understanding you correctly, you are saying there are some age groupers sandbagging in the ag ranks because they wouldn’t get the same level of support as a bop pro?

---

blog

A few blatantly obvious errors in your observation; 1. Sebi did get a lot of coverage because it was his last Kona (so bad example) and 2. As per your previous statement on pros work/life/family balance, you’re really comparing the “life” balance of Sebi to Tom? Get a grip!!!!

I agree that the BOP pros deserve more than they get, but your comments throughout this thread are ridiculous. Since when is >40 AG the only AGs that matter.

Yes and that sucks For the sport because I think it starts to muddy the whole pro/ag ranks. Again I think it’s hard for our sport to really define pro or AG because I don’t think it can actually support pros. Or shall I say it’s way too small of a eco system that you should only be a pro if you can support yourself. We wouldn’t have a pro field if that truly is the line in the sand. So when you have fast af top level AG who finish middle of pack but don’t race in that category I think it makes the classifications look bad w either “sandbagging” or “see too many pros when AG beats you”.

And mind you when talking about going pro, I’m not suggesting every “elite card” eligible performance should be auto elite. There are definite examples of athletes working the system to get an elite card or maybe it’s even 1 good race. If you are consistently doing well enough to beat pros those are the athletes where I’m like “yes move them to the other division”, but again we don’t force anyone to. But then those cases start to imo “use resources” so to speak that could help the pro ranks overall. But again everyone athlete and sponsor has their own values on what they want. We don’t force anyone to race in a certain category. But when I hear pros need to do better at marketing, I just want to say “wait a minute” this is what they are also up against w sponsors not wanting non podium type of athletes.

---

Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

I'm not aware of any sponsors that want ag'ers to stay ag and persuade them away from going pro.

---

blog

I think perhaps some people in the people who are in the same age bracket range as top pros are not seeing the big picture. If we look at this objectively, in the sub 40 year old age bracket there is clearly a second division. The pros are the first division. The age groups under 39 are a second division. By the time 45+ rolls around, everyone racing those divisions are racing the fastest people in the world in their age brackets. Sub 45 or Sub 40 year olds the fastest people in the world in those age brackets are racing pro.

So for sure, people winning those age groups are artificially creating more media and social media attention relative to BOP pros racing in the first division who are faster. A bunch of you who can't see that are making it personal (stevej for example).

It's not a high horse pointing out these guys are not fast relative to the fast people their age. A more accurate protrayal would be if there was a 39 and under open division (in effect a feeder division for pros, but also where everyman also participates from 8:30 finishers to 17 hrs finishers).

I am not suggesting abolishing sub 40 year old racing, far from it. It is just the portrayal of what this is which si not really objective. Outsiders have no idea that many top pros ARE 35-39, so when this is conveyed as 35-39 World Champion, it is more like 35-39 Triathlon second division world champion.

It is OK if those of you who know him or people like him in roughly the same range are not seeing eye to eye on this. You may not like it being pointed out how much faster the other people racing the higher division of the same age are.

Bring in the sport 15 years I’ve seen it. But if just like the pro/ag category rule, sponsors can do anything they want.

No different than a shoe sponsor. When I was coaching some single sport athletes, they “trained” in one shoe but raced in their school sponsored shoe. Anytime they did social media they couldn’t include non sponsored shoes. So sponsors can dictate conditions. And that’s cool. I think it then starts to muddy the whole tri ecosystem though and cause more issues than clarifications.

---

Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

Steve, you are making choosing to make it personal . If we just stick to the discussion we can have different opinions. Maybe you know this guy and feel I am putting him down. He is clearly faster than almost all those racing in the age grouper categories, but the 14 hrs person is fast relative to the 15 hrs person too. It is all relative who is fast, but if we or the media are talking "world champion" then he is not really the 35-39 year old world champion. He is 35-39 champ in the second division.

How much coverage did Sebi get on ST or Cam Wurf or what about Ben Hoffman. All these guys are in the same age bracket, clearly Cam and Ben had kind of BOP pro results for themselves. There is hardly any banter about them.

Unlike many of us, who have higher degree and can go get jobs to compliment 15-20 hrs per week lifestyles many pros can't. I was once sitting with Scott Molina at a race (around 15 years ago), and he is one age group above me, and I said, "did you get a Kona slot today" and he replied back, "Well fortunately I just get a lifetime invite as an age grouper now on account of winning, so I don't have TAKE any slot from anyone in my age group, but none of you guys are handing in your MBA's to make room for me in coorporations, so luckily I don't have to make anyone upset if I beat them" .

He is totally correct. Most pros sacrifice fully from conventional income sources and take the bet on themselves to go pro forgoe real income (and many are very qualified) to give it a go.

Age groupers, we laregely have a solid supply of income from other sources around which we do this sport.

Pros can't come on ST and say all this. They have to tow the "age groupers are the lifeblood of our sport" line and not risk tipping that apple cart. But I would bet you that 99% of pros in private would be somewhat aligned with what I have said (which is just that in the pro division there are faster people who took the bet on themselves and race the harder division). They just can't say it publicly. I can and it is OK if many of you don't agree.

Whether you want to admit it or not, he won the 35-39 male category at the Ironman world championships. The results show that as a fact. Its obvious you feel differently so I don’t know what to tell you other than you are flat out wrong. There is no more discussion to be had. Let’s move on.

---

blog

He won the 35-39 AG, yes there were people who are that age in the pro bracket who were faster. Dev is making a fair point about the BOP pro and FOP AG.

Tom competes as an AG and wins, gets on the front page of ST, probably enough exposure to get a little bit of product sponsorship. To competes as a Pro does exactly the same time, gets no coverage on ST. The celebration of the AG even takes away from the BOP Pro performance as people go wow these AG guys are super amazing even better than pros.

Tom does exactly the same performance, which I think is amazing regardless of his bracket, but the incentive is to stay AG because we don't make encourage pro racing, we celebrate and encourage AG racing.

Now at 35-39 it's unlikely Tom at this stage of his life is going to have a crack at being pro and don't think we should, think the thoughts from Dev is maybe we can give a bit of coverage in context for the people trying to make it as a pro, who still have to work and find ways to make it easier to be a pro (more prize money going deeper would be a start).

This article also headlines as if this was a story about a former top level soccer player coming over which would have been interesting, except it wasn't about that at all.

Stevie G and Paul "these AG'ers are so slow"

It's almost like Dev could've said, 'Great article. I like the movement of Slowtwitch. Can you add some BOP Pros to help get them some exposure? I'd also like to hear about the training and struggles.'

But instead, he took the low road in a dramatic fashion.

Personally, I relate...or...pretend to relate to AG athletes so I enjoy reading about them. But I'd also enjoy reading about up and coming Pros.

---

http://www.sfuelsgolonger.com

This discussion could probably do without making fun of others

---

Matt

I think it would be more fruitful to stick to the discusion rather than making it personal (high road, low road, etc is all in the eyes of the beholder).

If we can look at this objectively, pros bet on themselves, and they sacrifice income for more time so they can train and rest properly and gamble on good race results. They are playing the go big or go home game.

Ironman, ST and others do a great job catering to all of us age groupers. We don't gamble. Many of us have solid incomes, and Ironman gives us a chance to play around like we are in the same game as pros who take that gamble and make us feel like we are some version of professional athletes. And I think that is really nice for us.

Its the misrepresentation of achievements especially in the media that takes away from truly high achievements in our sport.

If we take a step back to 2014 when Sebi and Ben Hoffman were in their primes they were 1 and 2 in Kona. No one even mentioned Ben this year. Ben is 39 (may be 40 by now). You get the picture.

The media over glorification of some of the age group winners is out of place in the big picture (and let's not bs each other, all of our social media feeds have a lot of age grouper bragging, and that's fine, it is part of the definition of social media...I know I do it as much as the next guy, because what I do in this sport, is actually kind of impressive relative to my friends outside this sport and in a way it is)

For those saying you can't compare pros to age groupers, the answer is, yes we can, because fast age groupers working other jobs are not taking the same no income gamble as pros to free up time. Everyone is comparable by the time on the clock at the end of the race. That's what ironman is trying to do, if not they would just turn off the race clock outside of the pros and make it a giant tour for us all.

How often would you have the swimswam feature a front page story about a 30 something FINA World Masters winner in the 100 free vs coverage the 5th place person of the 100 Free at FINA Worlds (vs masters worlds)? The other sports have a clear deliniation and it is impossible to misrepresent to the outside world.

It's that misrepresentation to the outside world that the media has a play in and it DOES take away from prospects for pro athletes. I remember discussing with a pro athlete before the Athens Olympics if I could introduce him to a VP of marketing at a certain Canadian corporation. I got the athlete the meeting and he pitched himself and and then got turned down because the company was, "sponsoring another athlete on the national team". It was an age grouper going to ITU worlds, not anyone trying out for or who had made the actual Athens Olympics team.

Where did I say he was slow, I said he was amazing.

Yes, think we can probably cover both and don't see a guy in 35-39 going pro so it makes sense to be an AG at his stage in life.

Interesting perspective. Hadnt thought about it that way.

Why? He doesn't have to make any changes to do it. He would just race with people of his ability and get race entry benefits.