Thanks for the interview
Impressive coming from a soccer background

Notes his psi tubeless was 90psi

Any idea on his weight?

I thought this was going to be about Kevin's brother

Hey let's keep in mind that the fastest person in 35-39 was Sebi Kienle in 7:55 who just did his all time best at Kona in 6th overall.

The age groups under 45 don't have the best in the world in their age group, because the best are racing pro. Tim O'Donnell was fastest 40-44 in the world in 8:02 2 years after a heart attack!!!

But...they're not racing in age groups...because they're pros...?!

That's meant to be in pink right? Is that really how you look at it???

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You can’t have it both ways

Are you suggesting there should be no such age group? Can’t we just laud his effort?

All these complaints

- should be racing as a pro
- is not as fast as the pros
- has no real job
- Bob would have beaten him
- he is faster than me thus something stinks

Waiting to get his response

Surely pink?

I’m new here and realize there have been several threads where Jenson Button has come up, but I’d love to see this kind of interview with him.

Keep up the great work!

This guy has done a great job and performance is awesome. When I clicked really thought maybe Kev has a brother and this guy was a proper soccer pro who had come over.

He's a really good AG and the soccer angle is not significant. It would be interesting if a retired top flight player did come over, say a box to box like Gerrard, assuming they were not clapped out with injuries and actually wanted to rather than enjoy being rich and retired.

https://www.tri247.com/triathlon-features/interviews/gbkona-2018-rich-whitfield-profile


This guy played for Preston who are in the EFL so very high levels of fitness needed, sub 9 a few times

Yeah roughly anyone under 40 not going close or sub 8 is not that impressive. Winning age groups under 40 is not that impressive, because the top people in those age groups are racing pro and often have much more demanding lifestyle balancing than many age groupers anyway. I would say that age groups under 45 at Kona are not neccessary. Maybe all we need is pro field where you have WADA and whereabouts and other than that. an open group not subject to all of that and start the age groups at 45.

Age groups at local level racing is fine, because there are no pro fields anyway (Jan F can come and race 40-44 at our local tri, I am sure everyone would be happy to get smacked by him).

Basically a slower pro and an an age group winner under 40 are roughly the same thing. But the slow pro gets almost no glory.

Are you saying that everyone under 45 should start with the pros even if they are not at their level (fun) or Ironman should be a sport only for pros and amateurs over 45 (not a lot of fun for anyone who doesn't qualify)?

I hate to break it to you but under 45s make 50% of the participants in Kona with 40-44 usually being the most numerous AG and 35-39 usually in the top 3.

Many sports have "masters" or age group categories starting way earlier than 45. Running marathons at 40 but many other sports start at least at 30 or 35. Swimming start at 25.



But the amateur isn't paid to race and doesn't win prize money. Besides, what glory is there for AGs, really?

hahaha dude what are you smoking

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By that logic I’d argue that winning any age group isn’t impressive. Even after 40, the best have “retired” so you are winning a meaningless competition of “whoever is left competing”. You can’t seriously have this view on AG competition…?

Have to break it to you, a slower pro isn't paid to race nor do they win any prize money. Who knows how those outside the top PTO 50 make a living. Though they have had to KQ so that meant a pay day at whichever IM they raced so to do.
The top amateurs get considerable kudos amongst their peers and a umeke. And if in the first start beating some of the pros. Glory? You decide.
Well done De Bruyn.

Just to be clear, pros category (subject to all the WADA code), amateur under 45 category, then 5 year age groups.

The difference between the under 45 category and the 5 year age groups, is the best in the world in the under 45 are racing pro. In over 45, the best athletes in those age brackets are in the 5 year age groups.

Just saying the hype around sub 45 (or sub 40 ) year old age groups is a bit unwarranted, because there are many who can win those age groups, who step up and race pro.

As one pro told me on a flight back from IM South Africa, when we were talking about some age grouper bike times being close to pros, "Those guys can't swim and their runs are 10-15 min slow and they sling shot past all their 2000 friends after their 60-65 min swims. If they could swim and run they would race pro"

He is 5’9” and weighs 152 pounds

There's always that guy who just completely derails a thread.

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That's my main point. The guys winning some of these age groups get a fair amount of exposure when they are relatively slow compared to the top people their age. The guys who step up and race pro and are cannon fodder for Sebi and Jan get zero coverage, but they pretty well race in anonymity with not peer elevation in terms of pats on backs and kudos. Those MOP and BOP pros I find to be much more impressive.

So you feel this way about cycling, running, tennis, golf any other amateur sport, too?

Everyone sucks because they aren't pros?

It's not that they suck. It's that they get more hype and attention than they deserve when you look at it logically.

Are there headline articles on the most popular running/cycling/tennis/golf/basketball/etc. websites hyping up people in their mid-30s that win amateur competitions but are no better than no-name professionals? Maybe in local newspapers where they live or if there is some extra-special human interest story to go along with it. But otherwise no. We're not reading on the front page of Golf.com about Bob who used to play football in high school and is now a pretty damn good golfer, about as good as Brett Drewitt (randomly picked some guy near the bottom of the PGA tour rankings), and how awesome he is. Triathlon culture is weird.

More impressive because of their athletic abilities...and less impressive because of their decision-making abilities?

Seriously man, you lost everyone when you basically said that top AGers have less stressful lives than pros.

Since so many are vocal about disagreeing, I'll just chime in and say I get your point. Top 30-35AG gets articles and kudos for choosing the easier competition. It's also true you don't read about the best "amateurs" in other sports. Can't tell you who was 20th in Kona but he probably would be on the front page of ST if he chose to be top amateur instead.

Maybe triathlon likes "top AG" stories because we feel like they're one of us? And as soon as they get a pro card they're unrelatable? Even though BOP pros are faster and still need to work full time.

The headline implied this was a top level soccer player making a transition. It's a guy who played soccer at uni until he was 27. He's a really good AG, its not really a story about a top level soccer player coming over and excelling at tri.

Dev's point about top AG v BOP pros makes some sense top AG are not much different to BOP pros, some even have more resources and time to train.

This argument falls flat to me with the assumption that triathlon should be like the "other sports". So many times, we tout how amazing it is that we all perform on the same day, in the same conditions as one of the unique things that we love about this sport but celebrating someone with a career, family and winning a WC is now not up to the standards of "other professional sports"? Additionally, your presumption that they are choosing the "easier competition" is laughable. It says more about your motivations in the sport than theirs.

Celebrating great AG performers doesn't mean you think pro BOPs are crap. There is enough admiration (free btw) to go around. Unless you want to continue to support the snobbish triathlon stereotype for decades...

The headline made no sense to me either.

Your last comment is all about "some" and "some", which means that "some" others don't fall into that category, regardless of the anecdotal claims made by Dev.

It's not about being like the other sports. It's cool that we compete on the same course (although you can play the same golf courses as pros, for example).

The point is more about celebrating someone for winning 30-35 when there are 20 faster guys in that age group, but they chose to race pro and you stayed behind to be a "winner."

Celebrating unique AGers (e.g. Nikic, Hoyt) is also cool. Not sure simply being fastest non-pro qualifies for that, since doing so just means avoiding competition.

Obviously the line has to be drawn somewhere and someone has to be the fastest AGer. But I can see where Dev is coming from.

You cannot play the same course as the pros in golf unless you play the day before they play (and that is even a stretch). That is like saying you drive through the same tunnel in Monaco as the F1 drivers so you drive the same course.

Your (and Dev’s) issue is that you assume that 1) speed or 2) severe handicap are the only categories to celebrate.

 
I agree with you Dev. Some of the top European AGers are racing as pros in non-IM branded races (from Challenge to Alpe D'Huez, Embrunman, 140.6 TradeInn, etc.) and most of them have a PTO ranking, sponsors' aid and equipment. I guess for them it's better to be the head of a dog than the tail of a lion, but I agree they shouldn't be that celebrated.

If you take a look at their Strava or Instangram profiles, it's hard to see the differences with MOP pros. From training hours to sponsored posts or race reports with excuses.

There will be exceptions, of course. It's remarkable those that manage training with a job and a family and can still be very fast

Isn't speed what is being celebrated on the podium? If not, what is "top AG" celebrating?

Just a general reply… I can weigh in with a bit of perspective on the issue being discussed, even though the thread has completely come off the rails.

I raced pro for seven years, with a few podium finishes at IM and 70.3 races, but nothing of substance. It certainly didn’t pay any bills, but it was fun to line up and race against some of the best in the sport. The entire time I raced with an elite license, I would read threads about how “if you aren’t winning races or making a living from it, you should race AG because you and just pack fodder.” Being a high school principal paid my bills during those years, so it wasn’t like I was able to put all my focus on training and recovering, but I still enjoyed challenging myself in this way.

This year I returned to AG racing and won my first 70.3 AG race by over 16 minutes and went sub-4. So then people say stuff about how I shouldn’t be racing AG. It’s a lose-lose situation.

As someone said earlier, you can’t have it both ways. At the end of the day, I don’t care what others have to say about where I should be racing, because I’m not doing it to make them happy. I race triathlon because I love the sport and the experiences it has provided me. Racing pro gave me some amazing moments. Racing AG has too.

Now I’m trying to tick off new, bucket list experiences while I still have a bit of speed left in my legs. This summer I was able to race Norseman and it was the most incredible racing experience in my 12 years of triathlon. Perhaps we should worry less about what category people are racing in, celebrate the successes of others, and enjoy being part of a like-minded community rather than try to point out “these people aren’t as good as this article makes them out to be.” Everyone has their own reasons for what category they choose to race in. We should be careful when sharing unsolicited input without knowing all the circumstances.

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Thanks Herbert

Sorry the thread went to shit but that’s par for the course here

You are very welcome

Thanks for posting this. It sounds like I am in the position you were a few years back.
Having just won my AG (M25-29) at the 70.3 WC & hoping the next step will be moving into the pro ranks but fully aware I will most probably end up being mid pack. At least in the begin. I work a 37.5hr Monday-Friday job & unless things go much better than expected can’t see that changing.
I guess I would view myself as racing elite. Pro to me is someone who makes a living from sport. Realistically only the top 50 or so in this sport do that. I just want the chance to compare myself against the best on the same start line, without that questoin of different race dynamics. If I could get to the stage that my hobby/racing founds it self that would be amazing.

For what it’s worth & maybe not making friends with my option. But I do think triathlon should drop the 5 year age groups between 18-40 & just have one senior class. Then maybe 10 year bands after. This from some how can now say I am a AG 25-29 WC but wouldn’t have been in my proposed senior class.

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Tom is 150 pounds. he is probably back to 160 by now since Kona after all the Belgian beer lol

Thanks for this!

FWIW, I've always enjoyed these pieces about AGers.

Thank you saying that. I agree with you btw.

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The term this thread is tip-toeing around is sandbagging. Having the ability and qualification to step up to pro races, but refusing to do so in order to keep winning AG races.

Level of prestige:

FOP pro
MOP pro
FOP age grouper
BOP pro
MOP age grouper
Barely a pro
BOP age grouper

Thanks. I feel like I'm in some alternate reality with most of the posts around this topic on here.

And honestly, we're not even talking about 20th in Kona. 20th in Kona is right below the cream of the cream of the crop in triathlon. Any pro racing Kona is the cream of the crop. There are many many more professional triathletes who don't qualify for Kona. Even those people are generally better triathletes than the top age groupers and most are likely working full-time non-triathlon jobs.

Yes, there is this huge misconception that there is some magical difference between the top age groupers and the bottom half of the professional field. On average, people in both groups are really good at triathlon and also work full time non-triathlon jobs. There are exceptions both ways of course, but they are mostly on a level playing field in terms of triathlon talent and work/triathlon/life balance.

This is sort of the point though. Nobody is coming out and directly saying (at least in slowtwitch front page articles) that BOP professionals are crap. However, there aren't front page articles about these BOP professionals. There are front page articles about great performing age groupers. WHY? To me this indicates that triathlon culture and media values top age groupers over BOP professionals. WHY? I think I know what some answers would be. I believe that if we had an equal number of articles about both groups, then some of the widely held misconceptions about the differences between the two groups would be dispelled.

It is a little more broad than that. International sports media attention generally goes to 1) the best of the best, 2) up-and-coming young athletes who have the potential to be best of the best, 3) athletes of any ability who have really interesting life stories.

The winner of a 35-39 amateur age group category does not fall into any of those buckets. That's why it is odd.

A major difference is that in other sports, people who consume the media are mostly fans or at least not trying to get to the professionals' level. Here, many are trying to get to Kona or the 70.3 Worlds and thus articles on how a non-professional trains and thinks about racing are not just interesting from a "they are amazing" perspective but also from a "I can learn" or "That could be me" perspective. You ask most (not all, of course) high-performing AGers and they are not trying to be pros. They are trying to qualify for Kona.

This is bullshit. There are a load of reasons why ssomeone would not turn pro. The guy in this story had a seemingly fairly decent career, why give that up to scrape through being a pro and getting no money? He may not want the lifestyle, the travel, the pressure to perform or simply no desire to turn a hobby into a career just because he is good at it.

From someone in his age group, with a demanding life, who takes triathlon seriously and wants to improve/be as good as I can be, I am far more interested in fop age grouper stories than some random pro who came 23rd. It's relatable and potentially educational.

Please continue to do these sort of interviews!

Herbert, write an article about this guy in a year. Write an article about Sbradley11 and their experience over their 7 year professional career while also working a different job.

Or write about any of these people I mentioned in the other thread on this topic: https://forum.slowtwitch.com/...ost=7845190#p7845190

If these stories aren't worthy of front page articles, but Kona age group podiums are, then that is a problem and is being perpetuated by who you are choosing to profile in articles.

I see your point. If that's the case, write about the guy who got 378th in his age group at Kona. He still accomplished the goal and probably has a more relatable experience for those trying to qualify.

This article was written about this guy mainly because he was first in his age group.

Totally agree that this should NOT be a sandbagging conversation. It's not about the individuals choosing to race professional or not. It is a conversation about who the media chooses to cover and why.

I think what you don't realize is that a story on a BOP professional would be just as relatable and educational. These people aren't giving up their careers. The lifestyle likely isn't different.

That is a fair point. I think I was thinking of a young pro being financed by their parents or someone working 1or2 days a week where they can essentially train full time. I stand corrected and would say I would be equally interested in the BOP Pro who works 35hour weeks as the FOP age groupers.

I can't argue what's relatable and what isn't, but most the winners of young AG's at Kona are absolutely living the same lifestyle as most of the bottom-half pro's. I'm not sure why one is relatable and the other isn't. This guy would absolutely be a random pro who came 23rd if he took the license. Honestly after reading this thread it seem like most non-top pros would be better off turning in their pro cards and being 'inspirational' AG'ers.

The article is about a guy in 35-39 AG who has a career. Not a young wannabe pro

@jwmott put it in better words than I can. The difference between being AG winner and BOP pro is a decision, and IMO not one particularly worth celebrating.

Very good point indeed. In my mind, the line between being a pro or a good age grouper is super vague. There is no such system where top AG’ers promote to the pro category and slow pro’s go back to the AG category. Maybe your national federation can take your pro license back after you under performed for a long time but I haven’t heard stories like that before.

99% of the people who race under a pro license don’t make money because of triathlon, so chasing a pro status because of the money wouldn’t be my choice. Also, when you are getting your pro license, you also need to travel more to compete with the best athletes. In my area there are also triathlons with an open category where pro’s and AG’ers compete in the same field. If you are a top AG’er, this is ideal to test yourself without the hassle of traveling a lot. But Getting your pro license to just race some local triathlons seems pointless to me.

In the end it’s all about maximizing your own potential, whatever the result may be. If someone has a nice job and loves to train a lot, but doesn’t want the lifestyle of traveling a lot, why would he want a pro license then? Nobody is stopping you doing 4:00:00 on a 70.3. A license or status isn’t limiting or improving your performance. The only thing that matters are the hours and the quality that you put in. You are a pro athlete when you can make a living out of it. Otherwise you’re an elite amateur, which is also great.

The issue is there are far too many pros who shouldn’t be pros.

Yes, there are. This is just a bonkers argument. The Basketball Tournament is televised, is written about broadly every summer, and winners are celebrated. Noone thinks they'd compete with NBA teams. Same with the Big 3 tournament. The US Amateur golf tournament is as well, along with various other non-pro golf championships. I just plugged "amateur" into the search bar at golf.com and there are many, many articles about top amateur golfers in their thirties. Obviously pro football is the most watched sport in the US. But amateur football is number 2 by a long shot. The NCAA basketball tournament is more watched than any NBA game, and broadly written about and celebrated. Often the best players in the final four are older than the best of their peers who are already in the NBA. No one is saying they shouldn't be celebrated because those teams couldn't hang with the worst NBA teams. I mean, by this logic, no one who wins anything should ever have a moment in the sun unless it's the top level competition possible. Winning the Premier League is meaningless if you don't win the Champions League? People write about what happens at the DII and DIII T&F championships and I don't think there's anyone writing in demanding they stop because if those kids are so good they should be racing DI.

You're right about one thing, triathlon culture is weird. Age group triathletes getting mad that there are other age group triathletes celebrated or profiled is extremely weird.

I think you are confusing your opinion with a widely held view. I bet if you ask ST, they can give you a better perspective on which profile would get more clicks.

You know what else most of the winners of young AG's at Kona are? Financially well-off.

I am guessing if they had the "5K World Championship Race" in Kona every year, most of the fastest age groupers couldn't afford the trip.

Yeah I agree, but you're kinda making my point for me :)

We've somehow reached the point where the top age groupers are glorified and the bottom professionals are denigrated, even though they are roughly the same. I'm saying that the chosen subjects of profile articles influences this environment, at least subconsciously. I think this is silly and bad for the sport (yes, that is an opinion).

Someone said earlier in this thread that some people don't hate on BOP Pros but if you look at many threads they certainly do. The qualification rules are too easy, why aren't they faster, etc. and people do not like fast AGers who keep winning their races. I was a BOP pro for 2 years before COVID and was a full time teacher and a new dad. Was I faster as an AGer training as much as I wanted? Yes! I was at the time in my life that triathlon took a back seat to being a dad but I could not pass the chance to race professionally. Now I didn't finish last in any of my races but I was for sure alone most of the time but I would not change it at all.

Also, because there are not pro races all over pros do race AG races (like the rules say they can) then those pros get crap for taking the spotlight away from the AG races in that race. So it seems like it is a no win situation for a top AGer or a BOP pro. But I would say that many times BOP pros might be more relatable than a FOP AGer because triathlon is not their life where some top AGers are professional racers at the AG level.

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Love you bro. I understand both sides, but ALL AG WINNERS at Kona are basically PRO's without cards. Kona is a great experience and humbling. However, when one can see how many sacrifice life/family to perform at an AG level, it is kind of sad. I love this sport, but for me it's either a hobby or a job. The top AG athletes at Kona see it as a profession without the pay.

I applaud DP's courage to step out and say what he said.

Sorry for not participating in this discussion which I kicked off.

My main point is that all these sub 45 year old age group winners are slower relative to the fastest people in their age BRACKET. They are getting coverage here when perhaps the pro of the same age who beats them by 30 minutes, but still is 30 min behind the podium in Kona gets zero coverage.

The reason they get coverage is they are not racing pro but choosing an easier division and not going head to head with the top people in their age bracket many of whom have similar lifestyles. Is it worth covering the sub 40 year old age group divisions when people with similar capability and lifestyles are racing in the pro division?

If it is going to be age group coverage, perhaps more interesting would be the winners of a 18-24 age groups, who may be on the verge of turning pro (the new talent not coming via ITU), or if its going to be age group, more interesting for a wider audience likely is the women age groupers who are balancing being mothers, work and racing for example. I think these people are inspirational age grouper stories.

Let's not forget that this guy got beaten by almost an HOUR by an athlete who is older than him who had a heart attack under 2 years ago. Tim O'Donnell's story going just 3 min slower in 2022 after his 2019 Kona sub 8 is insanely impressive. The fastest 30-45 year old age groupers are not even in the same league as Heart Attack Tim if that offers some perspective of the angle where I am coming for.

Like anything in the world it is OK to have a divergence of opinions. It is OK for some people to be impressed by one group of people while others are impressed by others. We don't need to hate each other for that, although we can choose to not like the opinions of the other person. But lets separate the people from their opinions. The same person we may diverge with on one topic we will converge on another topic.

Who is celebrating him? It certainly isn't all you grumpy dudes in here.

Loved the story Herbert. Keep writing about AGers and Pros and honestly any other person involved in this small little sport.

It's interesting, because where's the line in a sport that basically cant support it's own pro ranks beyond about 50-100 athletes. So should the sport cut them out? Should it be basically an A and B level and the "wannabe pro" out of the picture. I've been hesitant to say there are too many because I think you need 30+ athletes a race to fill an pro field at these events (I'm talking bigger money races...not the local stuff) imo. Or atleast I think you need "pack fodder" because I dont think you can be sustainable if your line in the sand is top 1% of the 1% athletes. You just wouldn't develop anything if the pros were culled to that degree.

For the most part atleast in the US they've gotten rid of the formula where you could find some low key race and suddenly do well and gain a pro card. For the most part, you have to produce. Now of course that simply means your fast enough to qualify, to the "compete" is likely a whole other level. But I still contend I think you need some pack fodder just to have a sport. What constitutes pack fodder, I guess can be debated, etc.


ETA: In the ITU thread just this past week the French Federation declined to allow the #16th world ranked athlete to race in the Grand Finale, with the explanation "you aren't good enough". Like that's crazy how high. that line in the sand is for them apparently (it may also have to do with some domestic or not willing to domestic duties, but none the less the #16th ranked athlete in the world is being barred from competing).

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
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Yeah would be great to see more credit and glory for pack fodder pros than sub 40 age group winners. Those pack fodder pros need their stories out there. As it stands once one loses hope of being a top level pro there is no incentive to keep racing pro. May as well go get age group Kona slots and podiums and recognition. I respect the bop pros who have limited chances at wins against Sebi or Cam Wurf but keep racing with no sponsor attention and no coverage, and because they are not fast enough they keep working their job at a bank, a restaurant or as a policeman.

Is he Kevin's brother

I think one of the odd things I've seen in the sports is when sponsors and/or teams "discourage" athletes from turning elite. But I get it, why do you want to give up being able to promote a bunch of podiums for "pack fodder" results, because those pack fodder results come across as "damn you suck" to the lay person. But the more bizarre part is that the "damn you suck" pack fodder athlete, *likely* still beat the podium athlete, you are "celebrating" *many times*. (and at times, the top AG'ers beat half the BOP athletes). That's just how much social media influence can have and how you can "dictate" the narrative these days. (also why it's very easy to not turn elite and stay with the good results vs "grinding" tougher results).

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

While I agree with mostly everything you said I think "pack fodder pros" don't need/want the attention: they're racing pro for a myriad of motives but I don't think it's for the exposure. OTOH I think many of the FOP AGs are there for the attention they get.

And don't get me wrong I understand they want to stand above a weaker competition but they just can't call themselves WC

I know someone who races pro, aiming to make someday top10. I asked him why and he gave me one very strong reason: to avoid the drafting (besides he feels they're no sport in winning his AG by 20 minutes)

It's obvious you don't like these AG interviews and they seem to hit a button with you. I really don't know why. Its not like Tom is getting paid to do the interview. It takes more effort to bitch about it on here than it does to not click on the link.

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Yes! This is what I come to ST for.

In all seriousness, interviews with folks like Devin, Tom, yourself, and other top AGers is what i actually prefer to read. I’ve had some recurring back injury difficulties the last few years, so getting to the absolute front is pretty far off right now, but “in shape” I’m a 4:20-4:30 half IM guy that works a 50 hour corp finance week most weeks, with some trickling up into the 60s around quarter and year end. Ive podiumed fairly regularly in larger races, but never the very top. I look at people such as yourself and the others mentioned and am genuinely interested to know how your weeks break down and what is being done to get where you’re at despite a large workload.

I’m actually pretty surprised at a lot of the bitching in this thread. In no world does Sebi Kienle’s and my life outside of training look the same - nor does it for most of the other folks at the front of AG’s. Interviews of top AGers is definitely worth reading, as would interviews with mid/back of pack pros who are working full time.

The complaints come across very much like “so and so is faster than me, therefore so and so’s life outside of training is much less stressful than my own”.

Your point on the wide variance of "elites" is what goes back to where is the line in the sand with pros when people say there are "too many". Because for the most part, those MOP/BOP have to grind at a job just like the OP and yourself, they are simply racing in another category (and sometimes they'll beat the likes of the OP, and sometimes the OP will beat the likes of the BOP pro). Yes I know some that have gone "full time" elite making no money, by having supportive parents, or living in a tri house with 6 other like minded athletes, to reduce the cost of living, or working "part time" to be able to train 30 hours to see if the dream can become a reality. The issue I see is where exactly do you draw the line that there are too many? And does the "too many" reflect negatively on the elite ranks? (I have no clue?)

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

I would prefer to see more coverage of BOP pros who handily beat this guy (and many others like him). I am offering a suggestion for coverage of an ignored group who are relatively toiling in anonymity with no pats on the back. When I am retired from my work life, glad to write about those BOP pros but that time is not now.

Its not that I don't like these age group interviews, its that I don't like the positioning of these people as FAST when they actually ARE NOT FAST in a relative sense. Sebi in their age bracket is fast. The BOP pros in their age bracket are faster than guys who are interviewed in interviews like this.

You're wrong. He is fast.

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When did you become king? Please get off your high horse. It’s getting really old.

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blog

This is sort of how I see it. The interviews themselves are fine. I like that they're really into triathlon because I'm really into triathlon too.

But the disproportionate publicity these people get from articles like this compared to some professional triathletes probably contributes to things like https://www.sfuelsgolonger.com/pages/about-us where an age grouper is positioned as a world class athlete in the same category as Hayden Wilde. Matt finished right between Adam Feigh and Jason Pohl at the world championship (I know I shouldn't be comparing professional times to age grouper times, but it shows the point). As a fan of professional triathlon, it sort of bothers me that that guy is likely getting sponsorship money instead of athletes competing in the professional field.

Results aren’t everything when it comes to sponsors. They care more about social media reach and influence than your results. Honestly, a lot of pros could take a few lessons from AG’ers on having a social media presence.

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blog

But results matter if you are a sponsor or team that "highly encourages" athletes to race in specific categories. IE, exactly how and why social media can influence even more. A no name pro finishing in 18th place doesn't move the meter when an company can "showcase" podiums and dictate the narrative on said social media post. And I'm not saying they are lying about it. I'm saying they can showcase "podium at world championships" and it not really be incorrect, etc. Companies do all kinds of creative branding and advertising, etc.

Case and point- this article. Herbert doesn’t do this article on this athlete if he finishes in 38th place in Kona. But because he was x age group world champion, he can use that as a spring board to go with the soccer to tri angle. That angle isn’t created if he’s a pro I feel fairly confident in saying that based on their article history. Hell he could have finished in 19th AG and I doubt that article would be published. But by “winning” it then creates an angle to make a cool article for ST and the athlete. But let’s not kid ourselves, he got the article because he won.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

Oh yeah, I'm aware. I personally benefit from this reality in the industry.

Having a front page article about an athlete increases their reach and influence though. And sure, maybe these people are more recognizable/popular (through social media, etc.) than lower level professionals so that's why Herbert chooses to write about them instead. So it's a bit of a positive feedback loop. I'm not blaming this whole reality of the industry on Herbert, but those in the media need to understand this reality and either choose to break the cycle or continue it. I recognize the reality and choose to write about my opinion on it in this thread because I'd like to see change.

I didn’t say results don’t matter. They just aren’t everything and gone are the days of getting a meal ticket because you were on a podium (age group or pro). There’s plenty or people who post about podiums or their races and they get less than 20 likes. Bad picture, bad picture quality, horrible caption, no hashtags, etc.

If you want to move the needle, you need to be showing your value to the company and putting up results. If pros are upset that age groupers are taking away sponsorships then they only have themselves to blame. Show companies why they are unique and how they move the needle compared to the social media savvy age grouper.

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blog

Yeah, it would be nice if triathlon culture always placed those racing in the professional field above those racing age group in terms of prestige.

This backwards scenario we have now though is due to the misconception that the top age groupers are "just like you and me" and time X from them is super impressive because of all the other stuff in their life (which it is!). But everyone racing in the professional field is "not at all like you and me and totally unrelatable" so time X isn't that impressive from them because they're professionals so they don't have anything else going on in their life so of course they should be able to do time X.

If more people understood the reality that it's a very blurry line in terms of triathlon/work/life balance between the bottom of the professional field and the top of the age group field, then I think we'd see a swing in attention and prestige to those working full time, putting up amazing performances AND challenging themselves against the best.

Oh I agree with you but you gotta admit there are sponsors that want to “cherry pick” their athletes so they can then market that. Your willing to admit that yes?

And again good on them. I just think it then starts to bring in “sandbagging” but again any athlete can choose to race whatever category they want, just as sponsors have every right to put restrictions on their athletes. Nothing wrong with any of it. But when you start to bring in results and social media influence I think you start to get away from actual racing merit. But again athletes have that choice in our sport.


And because it’s athlete choice “sandbagging” really isn’t applicable in real terms. But I just want someone to go on the record just once of the opposite of “I race bop because I want to challenge myself”….I just wish someone would say “yeah I like winning so I’m good as AG only” (I'd respect the hell out of that kind of admission).

ETA: And no this is not for the OP, as to me the 35+ AG is imo "too old" to actually develop in the pro sport. I'm more referencing U 30 athletes who are really really really. good and fail to go to pro (for whatever reason).

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

On the one side you tell me to get off a high horse (thereby making it personal rather than sticking to the discussion, you can do better than that). On the other hand you say the sponors care about social media reach.

You do realize that the only reason people like this have social media reach in the first place is because rather than perhaps being 10th 35-39 year old in the field (give or take), he is number one 35-39 year old in a 35-39 division two.

It would be like getting coverage in mainstream sports journals for being leading the farm league vs winning the world series. Normal sports don't give more coverage to the winner for the farm system than 30th place teams in the top pro league.

Sebi won the 35-39 bracket in 7:55. Barely any coverage for him and barely any coverage for all the other 35-39 athletes in the pro field and then this guy gets a front page article for winning div 2.

Matt got his pro card. He hit a pedestrian that walked onto the bike course in Kona last month as his last AG race. He walked his wrecked bike in and walk/ran the run course to finish the race.

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http://www.sfuelsgolonger.com

I got personal because you put off this holier than though attitude putting down Tom’s accomplishment and abilities. At least that’s how it comes across on here. I thought you were better than that. Please just stop. Sebi did not win the 35-39 division. He placed 6th overall and had a hell of a race. Tom is fast and deserves all the credit he is getting. Getting on the podium at kona, let alone winning your age group, is a major accomplishment. Time to move on.

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blog

Maybe? I honestly know.

If I’m understanding you correctly, you are saying there are some age groupers sandbagging in the ag ranks because they wouldn’t get the same level of support as a bop pro?

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blog

A few blatantly obvious errors in your observation; 1. Sebi did get a lot of coverage because it was his last Kona (so bad example) and 2. As per your previous statement on pros work/life/family balance, you’re really comparing the “life” balance of Sebi to Tom? Get a grip!!!!

I agree that the BOP pros deserve more than they get, but your comments throughout this thread are ridiculous. Since when is >40 AG the only AGs that matter.

Yes and that sucks For the sport because I think it starts to muddy the whole pro/ag ranks. Again I think it’s hard for our sport to really define pro or AG because I don’t think it can actually support pros. Or shall I say it’s way too small of a eco system that you should only be a pro if you can support yourself. We wouldn’t have a pro field if that truly is the line in the sand. So when you have fast af top level AG who finish middle of pack but don’t race in that category I think it makes the classifications look bad w either “sandbagging” or “see too many pros when AG beats you”.

And mind you when talking about going pro, I’m not suggesting every “elite card” eligible performance should be auto elite. There are definite examples of athletes working the system to get an elite card or maybe it’s even 1 good race. If you are consistently doing well enough to beat pros those are the athletes where I’m like “yes move them to the other division”, but again we don’t force anyone to. But then those cases start to imo “use resources” so to speak that could help the pro ranks overall. But again everyone athlete and sponsor has their own values on what they want. We don’t force anyone to race in a certain category. But when I hear pros need to do better at marketing, I just want to say “wait a minute” this is what they are also up against w sponsors not wanting non podium type of athletes.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

I'm not aware of any sponsors that want ag'ers to stay ag and persuade them away from going pro.

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blog

I think perhaps some people in the people who are in the same age bracket range as top pros are not seeing the big picture. If we look at this objectively, in the sub 40 year old age bracket there is clearly a second division. The pros are the first division. The age groups under 39 are a second division. By the time 45+ rolls around, everyone racing those divisions are racing the fastest people in the world in their age brackets. Sub 45 or Sub 40 year olds the fastest people in the world in those age brackets are racing pro.

So for sure, people winning those age groups are artificially creating more media and social media attention relative to BOP pros racing in the first division who are faster. A bunch of you who can't see that are making it personal (stevej for example).

It's not a high horse pointing out these guys are not fast relative to the fast people their age. A more accurate protrayal would be if there was a 39 and under open division (in effect a feeder division for pros, but also where everyman also participates from 8:30 finishers to 17 hrs finishers).

I am not suggesting abolishing sub 40 year old racing, far from it. It is just the portrayal of what this is which si not really objective. Outsiders have no idea that many top pros ARE 35-39, so when this is conveyed as 35-39 World Champion, it is more like 35-39 Triathlon second division world champion.

It is OK if those of you who know him or people like him in roughly the same range are not seeing eye to eye on this. You may not like it being pointed out how much faster the other people racing the higher division of the same age are.

Bring in the sport 15 years I’ve seen it. But if just like the pro/ag category rule, sponsors can do anything they want.

No different than a shoe sponsor. When I was coaching some single sport athletes, they “trained” in one shoe but raced in their school sponsored shoe. Anytime they did social media they couldn’t include non sponsored shoes. So sponsors can dictate conditions. And that’s cool. I think it then starts to muddy the whole tri ecosystem though and cause more issues than clarifications.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

Steve, you are making choosing to make it personal . If we just stick to the discussion we can have different opinions. Maybe you know this guy and feel I am putting him down. He is clearly faster than almost all those racing in the age grouper categories, but the 14 hrs person is fast relative to the 15 hrs person too. It is all relative who is fast, but if we or the media are talking "world champion" then he is not really the 35-39 year old world champion. He is 35-39 champ in the second division.

How much coverage did Sebi get on ST or Cam Wurf or what about Ben Hoffman. All these guys are in the same age bracket, clearly Cam and Ben had kind of BOP pro results for themselves. There is hardly any banter about them.

Unlike many of us, who have higher degree and can go get jobs to compliment 15-20 hrs per week lifestyles many pros can't. I was once sitting with Scott Molina at a race (around 15 years ago), and he is one age group above me, and I said, "did you get a Kona slot today" and he replied back, "Well fortunately I just get a lifetime invite as an age grouper now on account of winning, so I don't have TAKE any slot from anyone in my age group, but none of you guys are handing in your MBA's to make room for me in coorporations, so luckily I don't have to make anyone upset if I beat them" .

He is totally correct. Most pros sacrifice fully from conventional income sources and take the bet on themselves to go pro forgoe real income (and many are very qualified) to give it a go.

Age groupers, we laregely have a solid supply of income from other sources around which we do this sport.

Pros can't come on ST and say all this. They have to tow the "age groupers are the lifeblood of our sport" line and not risk tipping that apple cart. But I would bet you that 99% of pros in private would be somewhat aligned with what I have said (which is just that in the pro division there are faster people who took the bet on themselves and race the harder division). They just can't say it publicly. I can and it is OK if many of you don't agree.

Whether you want to admit it or not, he won the 35-39 male category at the Ironman world championships. The results show that as a fact. Its obvious you feel differently so I don’t know what to tell you other than you are flat out wrong. There is no more discussion to be had. Let’s move on.

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blog

He won the 35-39 AG, yes there were people who are that age in the pro bracket who were faster. Dev is making a fair point about the BOP pro and FOP AG.

Tom competes as an AG and wins, gets on the front page of ST, probably enough exposure to get a little bit of product sponsorship. To competes as a Pro does exactly the same time, gets no coverage on ST. The celebration of the AG even takes away from the BOP Pro performance as people go wow these AG guys are super amazing even better than pros.

Tom does exactly the same performance, which I think is amazing regardless of his bracket, but the incentive is to stay AG because we don't make encourage pro racing, we celebrate and encourage AG racing.

Now at 35-39 it's unlikely Tom at this stage of his life is going to have a crack at being pro and don't think we should, think the thoughts from Dev is maybe we can give a bit of coverage in context for the people trying to make it as a pro, who still have to work and find ways to make it easier to be a pro (more prize money going deeper would be a start).

This article also headlines as if this was a story about a former top level soccer player coming over which would have been interesting, except it wasn't about that at all.

Stevie G and Paul "these AG'ers are so slow"

It's almost like Dev could've said, 'Great article. I like the movement of Slowtwitch. Can you add some BOP Pros to help get them some exposure? I'd also like to hear about the training and struggles.'

But instead, he took the low road in a dramatic fashion.

Personally, I relate...or...pretend to relate to AG athletes so I enjoy reading about them. But I'd also enjoy reading about up and coming Pros.

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http://www.sfuelsgolonger.com

This discussion could probably do without making fun of others

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Matt

I think it would be more fruitful to stick to the discusion rather than making it personal (high road, low road, etc is all in the eyes of the beholder).

If we can look at this objectively, pros bet on themselves, and they sacrifice income for more time so they can train and rest properly and gamble on good race results. They are playing the go big or go home game.

Ironman, ST and others do a great job catering to all of us age groupers. We don't gamble. Many of us have solid incomes, and Ironman gives us a chance to play around like we are in the same game as pros who take that gamble and make us feel like we are some version of professional athletes. And I think that is really nice for us.

Its the misrepresentation of achievements especially in the media that takes away from truly high achievements in our sport.

If we take a step back to 2014 when Sebi and Ben Hoffman were in their primes they were 1 and 2 in Kona. No one even mentioned Ben this year. Ben is 39 (may be 40 by now). You get the picture.

The media over glorification of some of the age group winners is out of place in the big picture (and let's not bs each other, all of our social media feeds have a lot of age grouper bragging, and that's fine, it is part of the definition of social media...I know I do it as much as the next guy, because what I do in this sport, is actually kind of impressive relative to my friends outside this sport and in a way it is)

For those saying you can't compare pros to age groupers, the answer is, yes we can, because fast age groupers working other jobs are not taking the same no income gamble as pros to free up time. Everyone is comparable by the time on the clock at the end of the race. That's what ironman is trying to do, if not they would just turn off the race clock outside of the pros and make it a giant tour for us all.

How often would you have the swimswam feature a front page story about a 30 something FINA World Masters winner in the 100 free vs coverage the 5th place person of the 100 Free at FINA Worlds (vs masters worlds)? The other sports have a clear deliniation and it is impossible to misrepresent to the outside world.

It's that misrepresentation to the outside world that the media has a play in and it DOES take away from prospects for pro athletes. I remember discussing with a pro athlete before the Athens Olympics if I could introduce him to a VP of marketing at a certain Canadian corporation. I got the athlete the meeting and he pitched himself and and then got turned down because the company was, "sponsoring another athlete on the national team". It was an age grouper going to ITU worlds, not anyone trying out for or who had made the actual Athens Olympics team.

Where did I say he was slow, I said he was amazing.

Yes, think we can probably cover both and don't see a guy in 35-39 going pro so it makes sense to be an AG at his stage in life.

Interesting perspective. Hadnt thought about it that way.

Why? He doesn't have to make any changes to do it. He would just race with people of his ability and get race entry benefits.

For us in the UK it is a pretty big change since we have very limited Pro races but loads of AG only events.
I believe the UK will only have 1 IM 70.3 & 1 Challange middle pro race next year.
So for GB Pros most of my racing will require flights & travel logistics.
Mostly likely end up costing more per event & certainly more time from home/work.

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Full-time Engineer / Part-time Pro Triathlete
Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/benwgoodfellow/
Strava - https://www.strava.com/athletes/3085032
Website - https://benwgoodfellow.wixsite.com/bengoodfellow

That's interesting, in the US beyond only like the AG national championship events, pros can race in any event...they just get scrubbed from the awards or get put in their own separate category. I know when IM went to AG only races about 5 years I believe a low level pro raced it and "won". I believe it was IM Wisconsin. You aren't banned from races, you simply cant get counted in AG awards, etc.

eta: any "local" race I've ever seen has an "open" category to allow said pros to race and/or anyone who wants to race FOP, to race in said category. This allows the elites to get scrubbed from the AG ranks.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

This is exactly right. Dev has some good points but because of the way he made his first point, I think it rubbed people the wrong way and turned into this non-productive banter. I love the AG interviews and always read them, but I think a BOP pro would also be interesting at times.

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Blog: https://davidkoppeltriathlon.blogspot.com/
Coaching: https://dkendurance.com/

And you've done an interview with Kat Matthews.
https://www.slowtwitch.com/...t_Matthews_8571.html
She's a pro so hopefully @Dev will be OK with that.

Haha....in the words of the very honorable yet fictitious Col Jessop, 'You want the truth?...I'll tell you the truth..." And then he went on.

Joking aside I likely ruffled a number of people because I called out age group racing for what it is. A second division of racing in the scheme of pointy end performance where the real performers are in a higher level of racing.

The results on sportstats bear this out. That's the truth. Some may have been offended by me explicitly pointing it out. It is OK to want prominence for our age grouper racing.

Ironman makes us age groupers feel more important than we really are. In reality we are fans in the seats paying overpriced tickets while pretending we are in the same league as the pros which we are not. It is like playing fantasy football at Levis stadium in Santa Clara on an imaginary parallel turf to the 49ers....but we are not playing NFL but we want NFL level attention.

I love racing on the same course on the same day as Blummenfeld. It is a great ego boost. My tickets are booked to do this in Finland but in reality can do the same 70.3 of exercise solo out my front door. But no social media bragging rights with the Ironman brand packaging and no one to do it with and no pros to compare to!!! So I get it, I really do but let's not over glorify what age group racing is.

I look forward to seeing many of you at races. I am working on Pauli Kuru to jump in and put the hurt on us at Finland world's like he used back in the day as he still runs and swims pretty fast but is also a minister in Finland today. Let's see. Always fun racing with today's and yesterday's legends

I agree.

I prefer the sports/events that don't have the 5yr age cats.

Elite/pro
A grade
B grade
C grade
Masters (>45)
60+

or something like that.

Or even the smaller events that are simply -

Open
Masters

You can win your 5yr age category in triathlon but still get beaten by 10 people that might be within a few years younger or older; that probably started in the same wave as you. that's just weird. The non age group categories also give the good amateurs more competition and probably better racing as there are more people around their performance level to compete against.

But - people love winning - so 5yr age groups are what triathlon does to keep the masses coming back for their bling and praise.

Recent podcast with Tom: https://open.spotify.com/...OFX3zDPRX3tLZkdeURUe

Untrue - Pros cannot race in any IRONMAN or 70.3 event where there isn't a professional field. Here in the US that limits a large number of races.

Pro's can race in AG only IM events. IM has a whole section for pro's to follow if they choose to race in said AG only events.

https://cdn1.sportngin.com/...roup_Only_Events.pdf

Eta: so my point stands, there is very few actual events Pro’s are barred from racing entirely. You just get scrubbed from winning any “awards”. For the BOP pro it’s kinda the reverse “sandbagging” in that the pro is racing an event they *shouldnt* but still can. And yes a MOP/BOP pro has raced and “won” an AG only event.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

So for the most part for a very early on “pro” there doesn’t need to be “pro only” races on your calendar *atleast* in the US. Go race the local events (may or may not have an open wave) that are easy on the budget, if you have a local IM event go race it. Sure you’ll want to race a handful of elite wave 70.3 or IM, (to race the best) but this idea that suddenly you can only race in “pro only” and you must travel for all races, is in fact false. That’s an important narrative to correct because I think very young pros in fact may not even be ready to race “pro only” schedule. They can use local events to test fitness etc and then use the pro wave races to “test how good they are” etc.

So for the most part changing from AG to elite doesn’t have to be this huge change in race schedules, especially for BOP/MOP 1st year pro’s. You can still race local, but you must tell the race to scrub you from an AG specific result, that is one stipulation that is necessary (overall is fine but you can’t count in AG ranks)


Eta: and mind you if you look at the schedule that *some* AG athletes race, they “travel” for as many big races as much as many pros do.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II